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Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 3:08:16 PM
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CommonSense549
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Simple question that I have for you. If you're a parent, do you think a loving parent is someone who would forbid their children from doing drugs?
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 3:09:41 PM
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ctpruitt
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And I have a simple answer for you: yes. What kind of question is that anyway?
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 3:21:54 PM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ctpruitt
And I have a simple answer for you: yes. What kind of question is that anyway?
Oh, I have a very simple for you as well. I find it amusing that Christians think that a good parent is willing force their will on their children keep their children out of trouble, but they call god perfect when he isn't willing to force his will on all of us to keep us out of hell.
< Message edited by CommonSense549 -- 10/31/2009 3:29:40 PM >
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 3:23:13 PM
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mvic
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We can only live our own lives. We cannot live other peoples' lives for them, nor can we make them live their lives the way we would wish them to.
We should afford them the luxury of Free Will, to decide for themselves, just as God has given us that same gift of Free Will for us to decide for ourselves. Even though their decisions may not coincide with ours.
A loving parent may wish to FORBID his children from doing drugs or anything else that may lead them to harm. It is the right thing to attempt to do; but is it the right thing to do?
By forbidding one may well unwittingly encourage a person to do the exact opposite. Adam and Eve were forbidden the fruit from the tree. Did they listen?
If you are in the situation you describe my advice is that you seek advice from professionals on how to handle this situation. They will show you how, through education, or through seeing the results of drugs, you may hopefully teach your children to make the right decision for themselves.
So it's not a question of forbidding; but educating.
God bless you. Praying for you.
< Message edited by mvic -- 10/31/2009 3:31:00 PM >
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 3:28:05 PM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
Adam and Eve were forbidden the fruit from the tree.
There's an easy answer for that, too.  If god truly loves us, he would take control of the minds of those who DON'T believe in him, and alter their beliefs so they DO believe in him.
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 3:36:20 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Adam and Eve were forbidden the fruit from the tree.
There's an easy answer for that, too. If god truly loves us, he would take control of the minds of those who DON'T believe in him, and alter their beliefs so they DO believe in him.
You obviously do not understand God or Love Who are one and the same. Love is freely given. That is not forced. That is not coerced. That is not a mind game or mind control. In fact, it is the very opposite.
God in His love gave us minds and wills to choose. We can choose life or death. The choice is ours. If we choose life, we are choosing love and all is well.
Forced love is not love at all. God desires our freely given love. He has mine.
I pray you see how far you are from Love.
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 3:44:02 PM
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CommonSense549
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Nevermind.
< Message edited by CommonSense549 -- 10/31/2009 4:08:34 PM >
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 4:18:34 PM
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CMT8808
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
Nevermind.
Before you deleted you post you asked why doesn't God just take away free will and this way we will all be in Heaven and have happily ever after.
I think you are missing the point about Love.
Love isn't forced, that's like walking into a mall and seeing a woman and walking up to her and stating: I am going to marry you and you do not have a say about it and You will like me and because I am doing this You will have happily ever after.
That is very unrealistic.
God expresses Himself through us and to take away freewill, he would not be able to express His true self, but the expression would be, You exist, because I am demanding you to and love me, just because I said so!
I know some parents say this to their children and imho that is not love.
And it certainly is not the Love of God.
With me, my child not only gets told he is loved, huggies and kisses. He also gets disciplined, corrected and taught what is good for him.
The Bible distinctly tells us that we are to train our children in the way they should go and they will return to it or never stray from it.
To me this means when he is old enough to make wise decisions regarding himself, then his choice will be simply between him and God, because I was intructed to cut the apron strings and let go and allow him to have his own relationship with God.
CMT
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 5:08:19 PM
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Kath
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 8:46:43 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
I find it amusing that Christians think that a good parent is willing force their will on their children keep their children out of trouble, but they call god perfect when he isn't willing to force his will on all of us to keep us out of hell.
As a parent, I do not force my will on my children. I tell them what's expected, and if they choose to disobey, they receive the consequences. That could be punishment from me, but it isn't necessarily. A parent that tells his/her child to stop doing something dangerous isn't forcing his will on the child. He's trying to keep the child out of danger. If the child continues, the consequences could be an injury or worse. This is not forcing a parent's will.
God has given everything to pay the price to keep us from hell. He's opened the choice to us. If we choose not to accept the free gift of salvation, He will honor that decision.
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 9:22:06 PM
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Oberdan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
I find it amusing that Christians think that a good parent is willing force their will on their children keep their children out of trouble, but they call god perfect when he isn't willing to force his will on all of us to keep us out of hell.
As a parent, I do not force my will on my children. I tell them what's expected, and if they choose to disobey, they receive the consequences. That could be punishment from me, but it isn't necessarily. A parent that tells his/her child to stop doing something dangerous isn't forcing his will on the child. He's trying to keep the child out of danger. If the child continues, the consequences could be an injury or worse. This is not forcing a parent's will.
God has given everything to pay the price to keep us from hell. He's opened the choice to us. If we choose not to accept the free gift of salvation, He will honor that decision.
Best - Reply - Ever
+1
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 11:41:43 PM
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TMeeks
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One of the things that the Bible mentions is that there will be some people who are forever searching and NEVER coming to the truth.
There is a reason for that. These people think they are among the world's most clever people. In their own minds they can come up with cleverly phrased questions that are BOUND to trip up people.... or, so they think. And, of course, one question ALWAYS leads to another that is supposedly equally brilliant.
Jesus ran into these types of people all the time... and, it didn't faze him in the least. For he knew what was behind it. And, that was fear. They kept asking question, not because they truly wanted to know if Jesus really was the Christ. They asked because they feared he WAS the Christ and that thought, in light of their own life, was TERRIFYING to them.
If they ever stopped asking questions, they'd have to come to a conclusion. But, what they didn't know is that sooner or later the questions ALWAYS cease and the rubber finally hits the road. There is not a single one of those that continually tried to trip up Jesus that is still alive today. Not one. Each came to that moment in time when the questions ceased and the final answer came.
One of three things happened. The first possibility is that nothing happened. They just rotted away and returned to dust with no eternal existance. The second is that they were right and Jesus was NOT the Son of God as he said he was, and God rewards them for denying him. And, of course, there is the third thing... that Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be and they awoke to find that the one they rejected really was The Way, The Truth and The Life and that their own rejection causes them to be lost forever.
Had they asked questions to LEARN, things might have been different for them. But, they never really asked questions to learn. They asked questions to avoid learning and hide behind the self-deception of their cleverness... which, as it turned out wasn't so clever after all.
I often picture those that deny Christ, after they have had a chance to see him face to face, as the Bible says we will, and then been taken out of his presence. I see them reliving their rejection of him over and over and over. In your case, I see you reliving these endless questions over and over and over... and kicking yourself for never asking the one question that really counts. "Jesus Christ, are you REALLY alive today?"
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 10/31/2009 11:47:45 PM >
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RE: Any parents here? - 10/31/2009 11:58:34 PM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
He's opened the choice to us.
How is it a fair choice if non-Christians have no way of knowing that Christianity has truth to it?
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 1:24:28 AM
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mariamaria
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It's simple, yes
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 4:09:01 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
I often picture those that deny Christ, after they have had a chance to see him face to face
I haven't seen him face to face. Most of the world is given no reason whatsoever to believe that Christianity is any more valid than the other religions (or no religion at all). If Christianity ends up being true, it's hardly fair for any of us non-christians because we had no way of knowing it was true, no way of keeping ourselves out of hell.
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 7:53:02 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
He's opened the choice to us.
How is it a fair choice if non-Christians have no way of knowing that Christianity has truth to it?
Since God works through us, the responsibility to share this is ours as Christians.
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 9:06:21 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
He's opened the choice to us.
How is it a fair choice if non-Christians have no way of knowing that Christianity has truth to it?
Since God works through us, the responsibility to share this is ours as Christians.
I'm not talking about Christians here. I'm talking about non-christians. They have no way of knowing if Christianity is more valid than any other religion, which makes it completely unreasonable to blame non-christians for being non-believers. Non-Christians aren't given a 'choice' by any stretch of the imagination. A choice is when you pick between multiple outcomes that you know for a FACT are going to happen. No one has any way of knowing for a FACT what is going to happen after they die. And that makes it incorrect to say that anyone is given a 'choice' between heaven and hell, seeing as no one knows for sure whether those two places even exist.
< Message edited by CommonSense549 -- 11/1/2009 9:13:31 AM >
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 9:37:23 AM
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armydude
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I have to disagree with you on your definition of choice. A choice is between two actions, not two results. You CHOOSE one of two actions based on what you believe the results will be. This is called a "cost-benefit analysis" by economists. Rational people think on the "margin" which means that they make their decision of what to do based on what they believe the results will be.
For example, I am a college student at the age of 37. I was given a choice in April of last year to continue working for a very large textile company or accept a layoff and be sent to school. Fact is, I didn't know if I would be able to make ends meet while I was in school. I didn't even know (and still don't) that the degree I am pursuing will actually be a tool to get a better job. I chose, however, to take the chance because I believe that it will.
You are right. Nobody knows for a fact what will happen after they die. Those that believe we cease to exist have no more proof than I do. So the choice between eternal life and oblivion is just as ambiguous (using your logic) as the choice between heaven and hell.
Non-believers are given a choice when Christians share the good news. Whether they believe this choice is another matter.
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 9:40:21 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
Non-believers are given a choice when Christians share the good news. Whether they believe this choice is another matter.
And that's the problem there. If the Christian god exists, then he's failing to offer enough proof to show his existence. And it's most certainly not fair that billions upon billions of souls will suffer eternally for something that god has failed to do.
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Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 9:43:01 AM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
If the Christian god exists, then he's failing to offer enough proof to show his existence.
What would be "proof" to you?
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 9:43:23 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Non-believers are given a choice when Christians share the good news. Whether they believe this choice is another matter.
And that's the problem there. If the Christian god exists, then he's failing to offer enough proof to show his existence. And it's most certainly not fair that billions upon billions of souls will suffer eternally for something that god has failed to do.
Again I must disagree. God has shown His existence many times. If it is not believed, it is not His doing. If I were to tell you that I could jump over a building and you did not believe me that's one thing. If I were to then show you and you still not believe me, I've done my part. God has shown us not only that He truly does exist, but also that He's done everything necessary to redeem us. The only thing that keeps us out now is our own decision. Do we believe it or do we still say, "It's not true" and "It's not fair" as if that's going to make a difference?
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 9:46:10 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
If the Christian god exists, then he's failing to offer enough proof to show his existence.
Not true. He says in the Bible that if anyone seeks after Him with their whole heart, they will find Him.
So if someone doesn't think He exists, then they're not seeking Him with their whole heart.
Btw, I'm a parent (20yo son and 16yo daughter) and I have never forbidden either of them to take drugs. Both have decided of their own free will not to; neither drink alcohol or smoke either, even though I didn't forbid them to do those things either. I told them right from when they were small that they'd need to learn to think about things and decide for themselves. And they have.
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 9:52:40 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Btw, I'm a parent (20yo son and 16yo daughter) and I have never forbidden either of them to take drugs. Both have decided of their own free will not to; neither drink alcohol or smoke either, even though I didn't forbid them to do those things either. I told them right from when they were small that they'd need to learn to think about things and decide for themselves. And they have.
Excellent. Teaching about the dangers of smoking, drinking or drug use is not the same as forbidding. Forbidding someone from doing something will usually make them want it more. Teaching them about the dangers of it usually has a different result.
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 10:04:43 AM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
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quote:
God has shown His existence many times.
Elaborate.
quote:
Not true. He says in the Bible that if anyone seeks after Him with their whole heart, they will find Him.
Many religions say something similar to that. Many of them say that if you seek the god, you will find him. If there is a Christian god, he has failed to show us that he is the REAL god that we have to seek out. He has failed to show us that the rest of the gods from the other religions are fakes.
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RE: Any parents here? - 11/1/2009 10:17:01 AM
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armydude
Posts: 12878
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
God has shown His existence many times.
Elaborate.
quote:
Not true. He says in the Bible that if anyone seeks after Him with their whole heart, they will find Him.
Many religions say something similar to that. Many of them say that if you seek the god, you will find him. If there is a Christian god, he has failed to show us that he is the REAL god that we have to seek out. He has failed to show us that the rest of the gods from the other religions are fakes.
Jesus said, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mat 11:15 KJV). You're saying that God has failed to show us proof. I'm sorry, but I do not wish to get into a long drawn out discussion where I (or someone else) provides said proof and it's "refuted" because it's "inconclusive" or something similar. If you are honestly seeking proof that God is real, you will find it. If you are not, you won't. But that's not because it's not there.
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