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Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 9:01:29 AM
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rcjames
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Where do you stand on thier validity, origin, purpose, and present day activites?
In a non-Believer's life, a Believer"s life, in world and governmental affairs, etc?
Is the presentation of demons in the New Testament a valid literal presentation or was the presentation allegorical in nature?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 10/16/2009 9:09:04 AM >
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 9:05:10 AM
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Eutychus
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I am firmly convinced they are real, are likely to be fallen angels, and are still active today.
I also firmly believe that some people lack discernment of demons and ascribe human lust to them, thereby not dealing with the root of the problem, improper human desire (see James 1:13-16).
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 12:19:59 PM
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DaveW
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I am convinced that the NT accounts of demonism are accurate. And that such occurances happen today with unrecognized frequency.
I do not think that demons are fallen angels for reasons I have stated in other threads.
I do believe that people try to jump on the bandwagon du jour whether it is deliverance from demons, inner healing, breaking family curses or soul ties, mantra-like confession of some set of verses; etc. ad nauseaum as a quick fix to their problems. Although most or perhaps all these are legitimate tools in their proper place, they each have a limited area of efficacy. And none can ever replace the day to day walking out of biblical repentance, going thru the hard knocks that God sends our way to grow us up, bible study, fellowship, godly correction from leaders, etc.
Edited to add:
quote:
Where do you stand on thier validity, origin, purpose, and present day activites?
Per the OP query, scripture does not say where they came from, esp if you go with them not being fallen angels. I have heard theories but none really hold water at all. As to their purpose, they seem to carry out the will of the devil. The present day activities are probably not that much different than 2000 years ago.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 10/16/2009 12:34:47 PM >
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 12:40:32 PM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
I am firmly convinced they are real, are likely to be fallen angels, and are still active today.
I also firmly believe that some people lack discernment of demons and ascribe human lust to them, thereby not dealing with the root of the problem, improper human desire (see James 1:13-16).
Well said, Eutychus. It seems that within the modern church, there is a dangerous preoccupation with the demonic. So much garbage fills the shelves of Christian bookstores on the subject. In fact, I was recently at one such store and noted that it had absolutely no section on theology and only a handful of books on holy living. On the other hand, there was an entire 3-row display devoted to 'Spiritual Warfare'. As C.S. Lewis once wrote:
"There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight." (The Screwtape Letters)
Christians must realize that they have three potent enemies: the world, the flesh, and the Devil. Buy focusing solely on the last of the three, the Christian becomes spiritually blind to the other two. Instead of recognizing the influence of the world and of his own sinful nature, the 'Spiritual Warrior' instead sees a demon under every rock and behind every tree. Find yourself looking at a woman lustfully? Well, you have a demon of Lust! Having trouble making ends-meet? You are plagued with a demon of Poverty! Feeling spiritually puffed-up? You could be struggling with a demon of Pride (ad nauseum, ad infinitum).
It's time for Christians to come to their senses. Yes, the demons are real. No, they are not responsible for every evil in the world and in your own heart. Best to follow Lewis' advice. Recognize they exist. Do not be caught unaware should they cross your path. But neither be enamored of them. As Lewis said, the demons are just as pleased by those who are infatuated with their activity as they are with atheists who don't believe they exist.
-Intrepidus
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 12:49:20 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Where do you stand on thier validity, origin, purpose, and present day activites?
In a non-Believer's life, a Believer"s life, in world and governmental affairs, etc?
Is the presentation of demons in the New Testament a valid literal presentation or was the presentation allegorical in nature?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
Demons are real....we see Jesus' interaction with them throughout the gospels as well as the apostles dealing with them too.
However in my opinion and I stress "opinion" I believe they were more active in Jesus' time because Satan was working harder at the time that Jesus was physically here working His ministry.
Are there demons roaming about today, or did the ministry of Jesus and the apostles "mop" them all up and confine them in chains until the judgment day? As to the answer, I am open, and don't feel I can be dogmatic, based on my limited experience.
However I do feel that Christians absolutely CANNOT be demon possessed because they are filled with God's Holy Spirit.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 2:01:21 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
However I do feel that Christians absolutely CANNOT be demon possessed because they are filled with God's Holy Spirit.
Hey, I knew there was something we agree on. : )
I think one reason we don't see as much outward, active demonic activity in America is because we live in a modern and postmodern world, where the supernatural is considered absurd. Satan probably uses different means to attack God's mission, since genuine demonic possessions would be considered some form of mental issue.
However, I have heard that there are often more observable forms of demonic activity in places where the supernatural is more a part of people's lives.
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-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 2:16:27 PM
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DaveW
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Just because it (demonization) is not recognized or as obvious here as it may be in a more primitive culture does not mean it is not here. It is just more stealty.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 2:23:54 PM
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Eutychus
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'Stealty' or not, I have seen a lot of people attributing their appetites (food, sex, alcohol, you name it) to demon activity. It's a convenient way to say, "the devil made me do it," when there wasn't a demon anywhere near. It is more often than not a copout, a refusal to be accountable for one's actions. What amazes me is that other believers usually are willing to accept that.
I lost count of the times I saw one believer "exorcize the demon of lust" from himself. Is God the Holy Spirit really at the mercy of demons invading and controlling believers where He dwells?
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 2:28:46 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Real without a doubt!
Just as real as they were, when Jesus was here in the flesh.
God Bless
R. Dove
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Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 2:52:34 PM
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laura...
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I believe demons are real because I believe the bible is accurate.
Demons are still active today. I agree with CS Lewis.
I also agree that demons are often blamed for sinful behavior that they are not responsible for. Of course that begs the questions, are demons ever responsible for sinful behavior in humans? I don't think so. They may be the catalyst or bring temptation to humans but ultimately sinful behavior is still the choice of the individual.
Can demons be the cause of addiction, illness, mental illness, etc.? Yes, but not always. I think they more often take advantage of a person's weakness. I subscribe to the action of "shake out whatever may be demonic and deal with what's left over."
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 3:04:08 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
'Stealty' or not, I have seen a lot of people attributing their appetites (food, sex, alcohol, you name it) to demon activity. It's a convenient way to say, "the devil made me do it," when there wasn't a demon anywhere near. It is more often than not a copout, a refusal to be accountable for one's actions. What amazes me is that other believers usually are willing to accept that.
I lost count of the times I saw one believer "exorcize the demon of lust" from himself. Is God the Holy Spirit really at the mercy of demons invading and controlling believers where He dwells?
Yep my friend I whole heartedly agree!
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/16/2009 5:03:53 PM
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ushalk
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they are not the real deal but they are real. there are all kinds of people that are posessed and lurking around the world today.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/17/2009 11:21:26 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
I lost count of the times I saw one believer "exorcize the demon of lust" from himself. Is God the Holy Spirit really at the mercy of demons invading and controlling believers where He dwells?
I would be hard pressed to find Scripture support for a Beleiver "Exorcizing demons out of himself"..
I do not feel that a Believer can be "Controlled or invaded" by a demon, but being influenced, confused, led astray, etc.; you betcha for as Paul writes;
(1Ti 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(1Ti 4:2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Anyone got comments on "Seducing spirits" and/or "Doctrines of devils"?
I really appreciate the input, as I am doing a paper for our Denomination on the subject, and am looking for as many differing opinions as I can find to go along with my journal writings from over the years.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 10/17/2009 11:29:24 AM >
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/17/2009 12:07:02 PM
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Judson50
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Where do you stand on thier validity, origin, purpose, and present day activites?
In a non-Believer's life, a Believer"s life, in world and governmental affairs, etc?
Is the presentation of demons in the New Testament a valid literal presentation or was the presentation allegorical in nature?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
I believe demons are real, we [humanity] don't accept Christianity; therefore, we find ways to 'mask' demonic activity (i.e. tarrot cards, quija boards, psychological disorders ect. ).
That is not to say those examples are ALWAYS demonic activity; rather, a door to work with demons.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/17/2009 12:36:56 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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yes demons are real and just as alive and active as they ever have been. While I know that Christians can not be demon possessed, I do believe that we can have a demon in that one or more demons can be affecting us and using us. I have seen this and I also know people (Christians) who have been delivered of demons and have been set free afterwards and totally changed.
My husband has a relative who is a Christian, but God has told us clearly that she has the spirits of pride, manipulation and control operating in and through her.You can feel it around her that something isnt right. Our spirits discern the evil in her. No she isnt actually possessed in that she cannot help what she does, but she is definately affected by them, and so are the people around her.She changes from one person to another so quickly, one minute so sweet and nice and behind your back so mean and horrible. Praise God she lives the other side of the world, but it has shown me without a doubt that these things are real.
THings that we do can open the door to demon acvtivity such as porn use, sexual sin, playing aorund with the occult or new age and many others.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/18/2009 1:40:33 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Anyone got comments on "Seducing spirits" and/or "Doctrines of devils"? There are many places in the OT where Israel is warned to stay away from false prophets, those who say things and teach what seems right but will lead people away from God, usually into the worship of other gods/idols. I would say that a seducing spirit is one that attempts to lead someone into false doctrines (doctrines of devils) that would ultimately lead them into temptation of sin and falling away from God.
quote:
I really appreciate the input, as I am doing a paper for our Denomination on the subject, and am looking for as many differing opinions as I can find to go along with my journal writings from over the years. PRMI has some really good stuff on spiritual warfare and dealing with the demonic. If you want, pm me and I will send you a couple of email addys of the people who have lived this stuff from a very different doctrinal stance to your own.
Ihave found from time to time the PRMI dunamis manuals on used book sites. You may want to see if th one on spiritual warfare is available online somewhere.
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Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/18/2009 11:21:09 PM
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bob97
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And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(Rev 16:13-14)
They are with us today and they will be there in our future. Anyone who thinks these evil spirits are not here to guide evil men like Hitler and the others are very much mistaken.
In Messiah,
Bob
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/18/2009 11:53:37 PM
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Marcus.
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Of course there are demons. Jesus spoke of them and to them.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/19/2009 3:35:15 AM
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Oberdan
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Yes, Demons are surely the real deal and they even have an origin, if one researches it. In my own time of looking into religious texts, there are books that are considered Inspired, but not considered as endorsed by the Apostles or the early church, known as the Apocrypha. The Book of Enoch, where Enoch himself was mentioned in the Bible as one who walked with God, was removed from all 'official' Latin and Greek Bibles around 700 years ago, give or take a few decades. Records were relatively poor in those days so it's hard to peg down an accurate date.
The Book of Enoch however, is still included in the Ethiopian translation of the Bible today. With everybody including the Protestants rejecting and adding their own versions of the Bible over the centuries, it's hard to know just which books that were left out was due to an act of man or an act of God.
As for myself, I've read the Book of Enoch, and it explains a LOT about the angels and demons, who they were and what happened. I would recommend anybody to research it, and read it for themselves, before making any conclusions. As for what was said on this subject, I will cut and past from my digital version of the Book of Enoch about this very subject.
Here it is, Chapter 15 verses 8 through 12. "And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offenses. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them."
The Watchers were a group of angels who were sent to Earth to watch over mankind, this was before Noah's flood. In fact, according to Enoch, a major part of the sin and abominations were the fault of the offspring of the Watchers and human women, which led up to God's woe and his decision to flood the Earth for a fresh start.
If I offended anybody by quoting the Book of Enoch, my apologies. I don't quote it as scripture, but as reference from a provable and ancient document that was removed by somebody's decision centuries before any of us here were born. I have never been able to learn the why of that in any of my personal research, and maybe somebody here has a better source of research and knows what I could not find. However, it does explain a lot.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/19/2009 4:00:54 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I do not think that demons are fallen angels for reasons I have stated in other threads. I haven't read your reasons. Would you explain who could possibly be demons if not fallen angels?
Wouldn't Mark 3:22 indicate that the "devils" were fallen angels in league with the "prince of devils" - Satan?..."And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils."
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/19/2009 4:02:56 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Where do you stand on thier validity, origin, purpose, and present day activites?
In a non-Believer's life, a Believer"s life, in world and governmental affairs, etc?
Is the presentation of demons in the New Testament a valid literal presentation or was the presentation allegorical in nature?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
Demons are real....we see Jesus' interaction with them throughout the gospels as well as the apostles dealing with them too.
However in my opinion and I stress "opinion" I believe they were more active in Jesus' time because Satan was working harder at the time that Jesus was physically here working His ministry.
Are there demons roaming about today, or did the ministry of Jesus and the apostles "mop" them all up and confine them in chains until the judgment day? As to the answer, I am open, and don't feel I can be dogmatic, based on my limited experience.
However I do feel that Christians absolutely CANNOT be demon possessed because they are filled with God's Holy Spirit.
Yes, I agree the evidence of demons was more pronounced before the Holy Spirit was given. This is why the greatest preacher of all times essentially converted very few.
Also, I agree that a demon cannot possess a true believer. Believers are removed from one "kingdom" into the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ - from darkness into the light. Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/19/2009 8:20:49 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I do not think that demons are fallen angels for reasons I have stated in other threads. I haven't read your reasons. Would you explain who could possibly be demons if not fallen angels?
Wouldn't Mark 3:22 indicate that the "devils" were fallen angels in league with the "prince of devils" - Satan?..."And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils." Beelzebub literally means "Lord of the flies." It does not mention angels. That the KJV uses devils is also not a good indicator of whether they are angelic or not.
My reasons (brief nutshell version) are that angels in scripture (where noted) always have bodies. Glorified of course but bodies none the less. Demons all seem to want to be in a body (ref the Legion going into the pigs)
Angels can operate independantly but demons seem to need a person to work thru.
The greek words for demons are not the same as for angels, fallen or not.
That they are in league with hasatan is not in question. It is obvious they are. However they seem to be another class of being.
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Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/19/2009 10:53:15 AM
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roxiesgarden
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I DO believe in the devil. I know he tries to win us over. So he uses others to do this. Is there demons all over the place? I can't honestly answer that with out study more. I just know the Bible repeats many times about the devil. He's here and fighting. It's right at the beginning with Adam and Eve. He never quits. I believe he's here even more trying to get his army for the end. So as Christians we need to fight and stay strong. Ephesians 6:12 says we are fighting evil in a dark world and unseen evil. Romans 12:21 we overcome evil with good. The devil will always attempt to upset us. Overcoming evil with good. What is evil? The attempt of the devil. 1Peter 5:8 says to stay alert! Watch out for your enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. 9)stand firm against him, and be strong in your faith. Satan is ready to attack when we are down on our fate.
So to the answer, Yes, the devil is real. Is he here with demons. I believe the demons are all around us. Tv, music, politics *grin* so look around they are there. But, put on your armour and fight. :)
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/20/2009 2:25:39 AM
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cgl1023
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I believe that demons are real as they are declared to exist in the Holy Bible.
To offer yet another view on the origin of demons, I am taught that they are the disembodied spirits of the pre-Adamic race. This idea can be developed from Old Testament scriptures.
Demons are without their own body and need to inhabit a body to function and interact in the world.
They do Satan's bidding and, they are liars.
We see in the NT that demons can enter pigs or humans. We see (Mt 12:43-45) that if one has been expelled from a host, it goes to the arid place, becomes tired and then finally returns to it's former abode. If the unclean spirit finds it neatly swept and unattended, seven more deadly accompany him and the state of the individual is worse than at first.
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RE: Are Demons the Real Deal? - 10/21/2009 3:19:50 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I do not think that demons are fallen angels for reasons I have stated in other threads. I haven't read your reasons. Would you explain who could possibly be demons if not fallen angels?
Wouldn't Mark 3:22 indicate that the "devils" were fallen angels in league with the "prince of devils" - Satan?..."And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils." Beelzebub literally means "Lord of the flies." The Strongs lexicon uses "lord of the house", though, either could be seen to be Satan since he is described as the "prince of the power of the air" and he certainly is lord of his house. In the OT, we see a similar word which means "lord of the flies". Do you think the OT "baalzebub"(2Kings 1:2) is the same as the NT beelzebub?
In Luke 11:18, the Lord Jesus seems to be associating Satan and Beelzebub. Do you agree? "If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."
quote:
It does not mention angels. That the KJV uses devils is also not a good indicator of whether they are angelic or not. The NT uses the word "devil" not demon, correct? And we know that Satan is called a "devil" and that he is a fallen angel. Mat 4:10-11 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.[11] Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." So, I think there is evidence that devils are fallen angels.
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My reasons (brief nutshell version) are that angels in scripture (where noted) always have bodies. Glorified of course but bodies none the less. Angels are "all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"(Heb 1:14). They minister to all believers, in some way. This would be evidence that angels have no bodies since most believers don't think they're seeing angels. When we see them interacting with man they're taking on the appearance of men much as the Lord Jesus did in the OT - christophanies. Although, I believe that many, if not most, of the angelic appearances were the pre-incarnate Christ.
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Demons all seem to want to be in a body (ref the Legion going into the pigs) Yes, the demons/devils do seem to want bodies. Could that actually be evidence of their fallen nature if, in fact, God created angels as spirits and without bodies?
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Angels can operate independantly but demons seem to need a person to work thru. Yes, we do see the devils working mostly through man, but, otoh, we see some working apart or totally "outside" of man. Certainly, the prince of devils worked outside of Job. Isn't it their job, so to speak, to inflict spiritual damage on man?
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The greek words for demons are not the same as for angels, fallen or not. As I mentioned the only word in the NT is devils...I don't see any "demons" :)
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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