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Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 1:43:28 PM
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Dan1138
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Contemplative Prayer came from Catholic monks but it parallels Eastern practices like Mantra and Yoga. Contemplative Prayer urges you to empty your mind. Contemplative Prayer is promoted by Rick Warren and his adherents. Why must we change religion to practice Contemplative Prayer?
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My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 2:10:56 PM
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Dan1138
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Contemplative Prayer is the emptying of your mind through repetitive practices then allowing that "space" to be filled by spiritual forces.
Seeking spiritual experiences is a term I use for experientialism. Experientialists seek religious thrills like the Pharisees
Meditation by Christians means thought of God not lack of thought and emotion.
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My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 2:21:39 PM
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McFatty
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Let each man serve God in his way. If you don't want to do this, don't, but it isn't right to condemn those who do.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 2:56:46 PM
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TrustingGod
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If I want to serve God by stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, this is acceptable?
Letting each man serve God in his own way must have boundaries - specifically based on the Word. From what I've studied about contemplative prayer, it is not supported by Scripture. The idea of contemplative prayer is not to dwell on the things that lovely, good, true, right, etc. It is to empty the mind. The Bible tells us to take every thought captive. No where does it describe the attributes of what is taught as contemplative prayer.
How far Rick Warren is into contemplative prayer, I don't know (I've sent his organization an email this last week, hopefully will get an answer).
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 3:08:16 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
The idea of contemplative prayer is not to dwell on the things that lovely, good, true, right, etc. It is to empty the mind.
Not quite: the idea is to empty your mind of the thoughts that deter you from dwelling on God....
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 3:11:29 PM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
If I want to serve God by stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, this is acceptable?
Letting each man serve God in his own way must have boundaries - specifically based on the Word. From what I've studied about contemplative prayer, it is not supported by Scripture. The idea of contemplative prayer is not to dwell on the things that lovely, good, true, right, etc. It is to empty the mind. The Bible tells us to take every thought captive. No where does it describe the attributes of what is taught as contemplative prayer.
How far Rick Warren is into contemplative prayer, I don't know (I've sent his organization an email this last week, hopefully will get an answer).
Does the Bible specifically say not to empty your mind the way it specifically says not to steal? If you believe it is a sin, for you it is sin. Romans 14 is a good read about this sort of idea.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 3:25:08 PM
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colliefan
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Go through the Book of Common prayer for examples of Godly contemplative prayers. The depth of them will astound you.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/20/2008 8:12:52 PM
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turtleman
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In the Bible we are told to be still and know that I am GOD. Elijah heard God in a still small voice. The goal of comtemplative prayer is to be still and part of being still is to quiet the mind. You can't hear God with your mind going a hundred miles an hour. This is not mysticism or anything like it. In fact Jesus went to a still quiet place away from people to pray and hear the father. If Christ did it are we not to do it also.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 7:48:07 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
If I want to serve God by stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, this is acceptable?
Letting each man serve God in his own way must have boundaries - specifically based on the Word. From what I've studied about contemplative prayer, it is not supported by Scripture. The idea of contemplative prayer is not to dwell on the things that lovely, good, true, right, etc. It is to empty the mind. The Bible tells us to take every thought captive. No where does it describe the attributes of what is taught as contemplative prayer.
How far Rick Warren is into contemplative prayer, I don't know (I've sent his organization an email this last week, hopefully will get an answer).
You will get a wishy washy reply.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 7:50:03 AM
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Dan1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Let each man serve God in his way. If you don't want to do this, don't, but it isn't right to condemn those who do.
I do not have the means to condemn, I am not Pope. Do you empty your mind in order to seek God?
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My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 8:09:50 AM
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Dan1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
The idea of contemplative prayer is not to dwell on the things that lovely, good, true, right, etc. It is to empty the mind.
Not quite: the idea is to empty your mind of the thoughts that deter you from dwelling on God....
Not true at all. Contemplatives are regularly taught to completely empty their minds. Christians are taught to take control of our thoughts. This is a big difference. The absence of thought leaves a void that will be filled by some god. If the Holy Spirit dwells within you He helps you to control your thoughts and write Gods Word on the tablet of your heart. It is not necessary to empty your mind to seek the Holy Spirit as you do. In fact emptying your mind of any thought is non-biblical. Many Contemplatives use "Be still and know that I am God." as an excuse. "Be still and know that I am God." is not taken in it's proper context here. Here is the whole context in NASB of Psalm 46:10.
8Come, (R)behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought (S)desolations in the earth.
9He (T)makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He (U)breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He (V)burns the chariots with fire.
10"Cease striving and (W)know that I am God;
I will be (X)exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."
11The LORD of hosts is with us;
The God of Jacob is our stronghold. Selah.
You can see striving refers to making war. I would encourage Contemplatives to cease striving because he is God. When God needs a face to face He will do it.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 8:15:14 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
If I want to serve God by stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, this is acceptable?
Letting each man serve God in his own way must have boundaries - specifically based on the Word. From what I've studied about contemplative prayer, it is not supported by Scripture. The idea of contemplative prayer is not to dwell on the things that lovely, good, true, right, etc. It is to empty the mind. The Bible tells us to take every thought captive. No where does it describe the attributes of what is taught as contemplative prayer.
How far Rick Warren is into contemplative prayer, I don't know (I've sent his organization an email this last week, hopefully will get an answer).
Does the Bible specifically say not to empty your mind the way it specifically says not to steal? If you believe it is a sin, for you it is sin. Romans 14 is a good read about this sort of idea.
I am so glad you asked:
Matthew
37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
I say this not to win a debate, debates go on forever. I say this to win souls.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 8:22:27 AM
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Dan1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Go through the Book of Common prayer for examples of Godly contemplative prayers. The depth of them will astound you.
quote:
Book of Common prayer
I have not seen this book in the Bible, so then it must be a tradition and therefor subject to sinful man. I discount tradition. Contemplative prayer is nothing more than a revived tradition.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 8:50:41 AM
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Dan1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turtleman
In the Bible we are told to be still and know that I am GOD.
See previous post on psalm 46:10 this is a misuse of scripture. The Psalm refers to cease making war.
quote:
Elijah heard God in a still small voice.
I hope that you are not insinuating that Elijah the great prophet of God, whom God communicated to directly, needed to go through the "jirations" of Contemplative Prayer to here God! Not many if any knew the character of God like Elijah. Elijah killed those prophets who sought god with mystic means. If anything this should strike Holy fear in you. God doesn't like Mystics and Wizards, unless they turn from sinning and trust Jesus Christ.
quote:
The goal of comtemplative prayer is to be still and part of being still is to quiet the mind. You can't hear God with your mind going a hundred miles an hour.
Not true at all. Many have debated heretics in front of audiences and their minds were going "a thousand miles per hour," and they were filled with a very great anointing of the Holy Spirit through it all. Some people just wish the emotion of this experience and get to chasing after the Spirit of Christ. The Holy Spirit is often symbolized by a Dove. Have you ever chased a Dove? Good luck!!
quote:
This is not mysticism or anything like it.
Mysticism Greek: mystikos- 'seeing with the eyes closed'
Jesus said I am the Light of the world. Open your eyes dear friend.
quote:
In fact Jesus went to a still quiet place away from people to pray and hear the father. If Christ did it are we not to do it also.
This was not modern Contemplative Prayer. All we can say is that He needed some alone time with Dad. Would an all knowing Father require His only Son to go through complex rituals rather than just speaking to His Father. Jesus said I and the Father are One. Jesus said I Am.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 2:34:56 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Let each man serve God in his way. If you don't want to do this, don't, but it isn't right to condemn those who do.
I do not have the means to condemn, I am not Pope. Do you empty your mind in order to seek God?
No I do not, but I will not judge anyone who does.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/21/2008 3:59:33 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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.
For anyone who is interested:
...from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
III. CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER
2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."6 Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."7 It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.
2710 The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty ant in faith.
2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we "gather up:" the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.
2712 Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the child of God, of the forgiven sinner who agrees to welcome the love by which he is loved and who wants to respond to it by loving even more.8 But he knows that the love he is returning is poured out by the Spirit in his heart, for everything is grace from God. Contemplative prayer is the poor and humble surrender to the loving will of the Father in ever deeper union with his beloved Son.
2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts.9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, "to his likeness."
2714 Contemplative prayer is also the pre-eminently intense time of prayer. In it the Father strengthens our inner being with power through his Spirit "that Christ may dwell in [our] hearts through faith" and we may be "grounded in love."10
2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. "I look at him and he looks at me": This is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy cure' used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the "interior knowledge of our Lord," the more to love him and follow him.11
2716 Contemplative prayer is hearing the Word of God. Far from being passive, such attentiveness is the obedience of faith, the unconditional acceptance of a servant, and the loving commitment of a child. It participates in the "Yes" of the Son become servant and the Fiat of God's lowly handmaid.
2717 Contemplative prayer is silence, the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13 Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the "outer" man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.
2718 Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.
2719 Contemplative prayer is a communion of love bearing Life for the multitude, to the extent that it consents to abide in the night of faith. The Paschal night of the Resurrection passes through the night of the agony and the tomb - the three intense moments of the Hour of Jesus which his Spirit (and not "the flesh [which] is weak") brings to life in prayer. We must be willing to "keep watch with [him] one hour."14
7 Song 1:7; cf. 3:14.
8 Cf. Lk 7:36-50; 19:1-10.
9 Cf. Jer 31:33.
10 Eph 3:16-17.
11 Cf. St. Ignatius of Loyola, Spiritual Exercises, 104.
12 Cf. St. Isaac of Nineveh, Tract. myst. 66.
13 St. John of the Cross, Maxims and Counsels, 53 in The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, tr. K. Kavanaugh, OCD, and O. Rodriguez, OCD (Washington DC: Institute of Carmelite Studies, 1979), 678.
14 Cf. Mt 26:40.
source link:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c3a1.htm#III
< Message edited by TheCatholicCrusader -- 7/21/2008 4:08:42 PM >
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/22/2008 5:17:05 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Let me give you a basic look at Contemplative prayer.... You go into your inner room, just like Jesus suggested, and speak to your father in heaven using the Biblical canon as a gateway into His heart. Conteplative prayer is NOT the emptying of your mind, such as eastern mysticism, but is the focusing of your mind singularly on God. Eastern Mysticism teaches the emptying of oneself to allow for enlightenment... Christian Mysticism, on the other hand teaches the "putting off the old man, and putting on Christ". This is the biggest difference between Eastern Mysticism and Christian Mysticism (aka, contemplative prayer).
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 7:37:32 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 174
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From: The Land of Graham
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Let each man serve God in his way. If you don't want to do this, don't, but it isn't right to condemn those who do.
I do not have the means to condemn, I am not Pope. Do you empty your mind in order to seek God?
No I do not, but I will not judge anyone who does.
So you will sit luke warm and not warn a Christian brother or sister who is heading for error?
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 7:46:25 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 174
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
.
For anyone who is interested:
...from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
It is true that this heresy started again from the Catholic Church. Which gets this error from tradition not the bible. I espouse Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) If you want to quote or promote Catholicism there is a thread for that. If you want to quote Catholic try the mystical monks of the middle ages or Teresa of Avila or Brother Laurence who was known for his fits of insane leaping and lunging around the room when affected by a spirit?
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 8:06:02 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 174
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Let me give you a basic look at Contemplative prayer.... You go into your inner room, just like Jesus suggested, and speak to your father in heaven using the Biblical canon as a gateway into His heart. Conteplative prayer is NOT the emptying of your mind, such as eastern mysticism, but is the focusing of your mind singularly on God. Eastern Mysticism teaches the emptying of oneself to allow for enlightenment... Christian Mysticism, on the other hand teaches the "putting off the old man, and putting on Christ". This is the biggest difference between Eastern Mysticism and Christian Mysticism (aka, contemplative prayer).
Adam
Let me quote Fr. Thomas Keating one of three founders of Centering Prayer. (Centering Prayer is a common form of Contemplative Prayer)
"In order to guide persons having this experience, Christian spiritual directors may need to dialogue with Eastern teachers in order to get a fuller understanding."
Although this practice began in the near west, survived within Europe and is now blighting America and the World, it's focus is to unite all faith traditions. East meets West. You need to research this furgod. Or research further. I encourage you to dig deep and test it against Scripture not tradition.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 8:28:41 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
.
For anyone who is interested:
...from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
It is true that this heresy started again from the Catholic Church. Which gets this error from tradition not the bible. I espouse Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) If you want to quote or promote Catholicism there is a thread for that. If you want to quote Catholic try the mystical monks of the middle ages or Teresa of Avila or Brother Laurence who was known for his fits of insane leaping and lunging around the room when affected by a spirit?
Dan,
TheCatholicCrusader was not promoting Catholicism, need you be reminded that in your OP you mentioned the Catholic Faith. So yes CatholicCrusader quoted the offical teaching of the Catholic Church for those who were interested. If you don't want the Catholics on this board to tell you what the Catholic Church teaches on a subject don't mention the Catholic Church in your original post/Question.
Pax,
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 8:42:17 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 174
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
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CLARIFICATION: Contemplative Prayer is a belief system using mystical practices that quiet or eliminate all thoughts by repeating words phrases or controlled breath. This state is called the silence and is similar to mental states experienced by wiccans and eastern pagans. These words or phrases can be and are often bible quotations. The goal of Contemplative Prayer is pantheism and pan-entheism according to certain "elite" practicioners.
< Message edited by Dan1138 -- 7/23/2008 8:52:37 AM >
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 8:51:44 AM
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Dan1138
Posts: 174
Joined: 7/1/2008
From: The Land of Graham
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
.
For anyone who is interested:
...from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
It is true that this heresy started again from the Catholic Church. Which gets this error from tradition not the bible. I espouse Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) If you want to quote or promote Catholicism there is a thread for that. If you want to quote Catholic try the mystical monks of the middle ages or Teresa of Avila or Brother Laurence who was known for his fits of insane leaping and lunging around the room when affected by a spirit?
Dan,
TheCatholicCrusader was not promoting Catholicism, need you be reminded that in your OP you mentioned the Catholic Faith. So yes CatholicCrusader quoted the offical teaching of the Catholic Church for those who were interested. If you don't want the Catholics on this board to tell you what the Catholic Church teaches on a subject don't mention the Catholic Church in your original post/Question.
Pax,
They shut down my last thread for talking Catholic. I happen to partially agree with you. Catholicism is salient to this discussion due to the actions of medieval monks and modern practices. Baptist preachers are promoting this heresy today. Episcopalians and Presbyterians are all involved as well. So that means that I can be kicked off of any thread? Forums Moderator Ps103 would be best to address on this. It seems that some are allowed to say "Catholic" on this forum. I do not agree with Contemplatives or Catholics, but I am intellectually honest enough to not shut down debate.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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