Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise."
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Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with... - 6/30/2008 9:29:05 AM
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Resurrected
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Luke 23: 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
The NT says that Jesus rose on the third day -- Sunday -- Jesus died on the cross the Friday before.
So how can the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise on the day they both died?
I've googled for some answers and came up with several different answers, so that is why I am here.
One explanation was that there was no punctuation in the Greek text, so the sentence could read:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise." (This seems unlikely to me.)
Another said that Jesus' soul did go to paradise with the soul of the thief and it was only His body that rose from the dead on Sunday.
Another one said:
The idea that Jesus contradicts himself (or the Gospels contradict themselves) concerning whether he had ascended to Paradise or not after his death on the cross is due to assumptions about Paradise as well as the need to contextualize.
Jesus says to the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise". This was indeed true. For the thief was to die that same day on earth; but in paradise "today" is any day in this world, as Heaven is outside of time.
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Has anyone researched this one? Is there a sound biblical explanation for what might appear to be a contradiction?
Thank you.
PS: This question was originally asked by a skeptic and he put it this way:
In Matthew 12:40 Jesus prophesies, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” According to the synoptic gospels Jesus died late Friday afternoon. When the women arrived at the tomb sometime around dawn the following Sunday, the resurrection had already occurred. The time between the crucifixion and the resurrection could not have exceeded a day and a half thereby contradicting the prophecy. This prophecy is again contradicted in Luke 23:43 when Jesus says to the thief, “Truly I say unto you, today you shall be with me in Paradise.” Paradise, as I understand it, is not located in the heart of the earth. So, Jesus, this God-man, couldn't even correctly predict his own resurrection.
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 6/30/2008 9:50:37 AM
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bob97
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Jesus is God and God is omnipresent so it is no mystery that the thief could be in paradise with Christ/God. There are just so many scenarios as to how this could happen and because the bible is silent as to how it actually happened…just believe.
Bob
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 6/30/2008 3:30:21 PM
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DaveW
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There were no punctuation marks in the original. THere were not even many spaces between words or sentances. Try it this way:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
That is equally valid.
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 2:04:24 AM
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Bluethread
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Dave W do you own a minesweeper? I could never have stuck so closely to the question of the thief and Yeshua(Jesus) being in paradise.
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 9:54:26 AM
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Resurrected
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Jesus is God and God is omnipresent so it is no mystery that the thief could be in paradise with Christ/God. There are just so many scenarios as to how this could happen and because the bible is silent as to how it actually happened…just believe.
Bob
OK, I'm sure the skeptic will be satisfied with your answer. lol
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 9:55:27 AM
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Resurrected
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
There were no punctuation marks in the original. THere were not even many spaces between words or sentances. Try it this way:
"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
That is equally valid.
I don't think so.
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 9:59:03 AM
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bob97
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quote:
OK, I'm sure the skeptic will be satisfied with your answer. lol
It seems to me that the major theme of the Bible is faith...I live my life on that foundation. 
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 10:00:21 AM
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Resurrected
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
So, Jesus, this God-man, couldn't even correctly predict his own resurrection.
Isn't it just like a skeptic to concentrate on a minor (how may days was Jesus dead) and completely skip over the major (Jesus' resurrection)?
Besides as I understand it, the way Jews count days, Jesus was dead for three days.
Skeptics look for all kinds of reasons not to believe.
So, do you understand that the thief and Jesus were in heaven/paradise right after they both died?
Did Jesus come back and then show Himself to His disciples?
Didn't Jesus visit "hell" too?
Or is "paradise" not heaven? Could "paradise" to a Jew be Abraham's bosom?
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 12:03:05 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Resurrectedquote:
That is equally valid. I don't think so. On what basis?
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 12:04:38 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Dave W do you own a minesweeper? The only minesweeper I own is a windows game that I never play......
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 1:04:25 PM
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SinnerSaved
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No contradiction.
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"
All those who through faith in the coming Messiah, were saved in Old Testament times but had died before Jesus was born, went to Abraham's bosom or 'Paradise'. This is located in Sheol or Hades. Those who were lost went to Sheol/Hades too, but not to Paradise. Between the saved and the lost is a 'great gulf fixed' (Luke 16:26).
During the time between His death and resurrection Jesus went to Sheol (Hades) in order to take the righteous with Him to Heaven and also to preach to the captives (the disobedient angels held in chains). See Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.
When Jesus said today you will be with me in Paradise, He was not referring to heaven. He was referring to Abrahams Bosom.
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"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 1:07:11 PM
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SinnerSaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Resurrected
Didn't Jesus visit "hell" too?
No.
Hell is Gehenna - the Lake of Fire. No-one is there ....YET.
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"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 1:09:30 PM
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upNORTder
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Paradise and Heaven are two different things. Paradise is where a believer's soul goes when they die. It is also called Abraham's bosom. Jesus' and the thiefs soul went there that day. Jesus' soul returned to His body when He was resurected. Heaven is where we will go when we are raptured along with the souls from Paradise in their resurrected bodies.
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 1:21:03 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved
Hell is Gehenna - the Lake of Fire. No-one is there ....YET. Not so.
Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire, so they cannot be the same thing.
KJV: Rev 20:14a And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 1:31:22 PM
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SinnerSaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Not so.
Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire, so they cannot be the same thing.
KJV: Rev 20:14a And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
DaveW,
Although the KJV is my preferred translation, I believe that KJV translators got the translation of 'Hell' wrong. The NIV has Rev 20:14 as "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire". I believe that this accords better.
< Message edited by SinnerSaved -- 7/1/2008 1:43:45 PM >
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 1:43:21 PM
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bob97
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quote:
According to the synoptic gospels Jesus died late Friday afternoon.
If you do your own research and dig deep enough you will find that Christ died on Wednesday afternoon.
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 2:18:48 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved
Although the KJV is my preferred translation, I believe that KJV translators got the translation of 'Hell' wrong. The NIV has Rev 20:14 as "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire". I believe that this accords better. So do other versions.
The greek uses Gehenim or hades where the KJV uses hell.
The term "lake of fire" only appears in Revelation. Hades gets thrown into it. I see no support for the lake of fire being hell. Hades = hell - that I can see. Gehenna = hell. That I can also see. But those words are not used to describe the lake of fire.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 2:37:54 PM
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SinnerSaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
The greek uses Gehenim or hades where the KJV uses hell.
The term "lake of fire" only appears in Revelation. Hades gets thrown into it. I see no support for the lake of fire being hell. Hades = hell - that I can see. Gehenna = hell. That I can also see. But those words are not used to describe the lake of fire.
I think that we are getting into semantics here.
The KJV, I believe, incorrectly uses the word 'Hell' to describe Sheol/Hades. I believe that this is incorrect, because to me, Hell is eternal, and Sheol/Hades is temporary. I therefore consider Hell to be Gehenna or the Lake of Fire which we know to be eternal.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 2:46:16 PM
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DaveW
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I am not getting into semantics. I am trying to look at what the text says and not go beyond it.
Can you give reference for hell being eternal?
You are using the terms "I believe," "because to me," "I therefore consider." Why do you have these opinions? Are they supported by the text of scripture? If not, they are only guesses.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 2:49:54 PM
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SinnerSaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
The term "lake of fire" only appears in Revelation. Hades gets thrown into it. I see no support for the lake of fire being hell.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/1/2008 2:59:32 PM
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SinnerSaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I am not getting into semantics. I am trying to look at what the text says and not go beyond it.
Can you give reference for hell being eternal?
You are using the terms "I believe," "because to me," "I therefore consider." Why do you have these opinions? Are they supported by the text of scripture? If not, they are only guesses.
But we are getting into semantics. We are looking at an English translation of an original Hebrew and Greek text, and trying to understand what the original meanings meant. The fact that the KJV and the NIV translate 'Hell' differently is clearly a matter of semantics - so which is right? That brings it all down to 'I believe' etc.
I believe that most people (and certainly the unsaved), believe that Hell is eternal. No proof. Just 'I believe'.
_____________________________
"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be ... - 7/2/2008 4:43:10 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
When Jesus said today you will be with me in Paradise, He was not referring to heaven. He was referring to Abrahams Bosom.
This is the correct interpretation, and there is no need to change the punctuation.
Before the ascension of Christ, Paradise was a section of Sheol or Hades, which is in "the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9) or "the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40). Sheol (Heb) or Hades (Gk) is the place of departed souls. The righteous dead went to "Abraham's Bosom", whereas the unrighteous were simply suffering in Hades (Lk.16:19-31).
To this day, the unrighteous dead go to Hades to await their final judgement at the Great White Throne, when "death and Hades (hell) will be cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:14). The righteous dead now go directly to Heaven (Acts 7:59; 2Cor. 5:8).
When Christ prophesied that He would be &q | | |
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