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ORIGINAL: rgod
The biggest impact that you'll have on her will probably be your own walk and the way in which you relate to her. If you have some good Christian friends who have a strong walk, you might want to invite her to do things with all of you as a group as well. Pray that God will bring godly women to befriend her as well. But above all, take your cues from God and pray, pray, pray for her.

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ORIGINAL: StephenJ

Does not like many things about the church.

This person has seen alot of hypocricy, greed, legalism and outright dishonesty in her past church experiences.

Does anyone know any ways for me to encourage this person and help them see that not all of Christianity is like that?

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It's an excuse.

If someone is really being drawn to Christ, He is the only one that will matter, not other people. The Church is full of fallen image-bearers who are saved but not perfect yet. There may also be wolves in sheep's clothing. She needs to leave them for God to deal with, and focus on where she is with Him, not what they might be doing.

When someone says to me that the Church is full of hypocrites or whatever, I look them in the eye and say "well, there's room for plenty more".

None of us are that great, saved or unsaved.

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ORIGINAL: rgod

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It's an excuse.

If someone is really being drawn to Christ, He is the only one that will matter, not other people. The Church is full of fallen image-bearers who are saved but not perfect yet. There may also be wolves in sheep's clothing. She needs to leave them for God to deal with, and focus on where she is with Him, not what they might be doing.

When someone says to me that the Church is full of hypocrites or whatever, I look them in the eye and say "well, there's room for plenty more".

None of us are that great, saved or unsaved.

Manda - I understand your point - that everyone is a hypocrite. But I have to tell you I was so disturbed when you said that you responded to people who complained about hypocrites in the church by saying "well there's room for plenty more." I pray that you'll reconsider that response and the way that you look at people who say this. Here's why:

First, there are people who have legitimately been hurt in church. Right now, I can think of a friend who was repeatedly abused by a deacon in her church. She told people about it (her parents, the church leadership, etc.) and they didn't believe her. In fact, they made her out to be the bad guy - in front of the WHOLE congregation. It was extremely difficult for her to move past all of this - and if she hadn't already been saved before all of this happened to her, I don't know if she would have been able to. Stuff like that happens more often than one would think. We hear a lot about the catholic priests - but don't think it doesn't happen in protestant churches too. More commonly, a lot of people grow up in homes where mom and dad went to church and praised God, then came home and tore into each other and the children. Sunday Christians. So the kids learned that the Church was filled with hypocrites.

I don't know if you grew up in church or if you were saved from a small child or teenager. I wasn't. My family wasn't anti-christian - we weren't struggling to stay away from church - we just never really thought about it because no one was saved. I always wanted God - but didn't have any conviction that Jesus was God - I felt that He was one of many. But in going to school, watching television, talking to friends, there was this pervasive feeling about christians being hypocrites, insincere, and not too swift. It is like there is a huge PR campaign run by satan himself. And unfortunately, it really isn't that uncommon to see pastors or other leaders fall in disgrace over some sin that they've beat other people up about. While this happens in the world a lot as well, it can still be disconcerting because the perception in the world is that if a person claims to be a Christian, then there should be some sort of difference in their walk - and you know - I think that they are right to expect that - there should be something different about us and that thing should be Jesus. (I'm not saying we need to be perfect, but eventually something should show.)

My positive feelings about church became neutral and finally turned to contempt. Now, I grew up in the era of PTL and Jimmy Swaggart. Embezzling, cheating, lying. I grew up seeing old pictures of "christians" bombing the churches of other christians because of the color of their skin - or bombing abortion clinics. So, I didn't like the idea of Christ because He seemed so violent, narrow, and judgemental. But I wanted to know God and I was sincere in that (and a lot of people are like that - I wasn't an anomaly by any means). However when I started to really see who Christ really was (actually I learned from a miniseries on TV - "Jesus of Nazareth" - remember when you could see biblical dramas on TV?) and when I ran into Christians who lived the life for real I was impressed with that. And it made me pay attention. And as they lifted up Jesus - not always perfectly - but sincerely - it was the love of Christ and the attractiveness of Jesus that drew me.

So I urge you, if you are really giving people that one liner and aren't joking - I beg you to please consider that there are people who aren't just trying to "make excuses." Consider assuming that the person might be speaking out of a place of hurt, or sincere doubts based on what they've seen and heard. Still, a lot of people want God and will eventually listen to you if they see that your life is different. They need to see compassion and love from us - it makes such a difference. And trust me if you lift up Jesus - and you attempt walk consistently (not perfectly, but just be real with people) - Jesus can draw them through you. In the beginning they might war against you, try to offend you, try to hurt you - but as you walk with Christ, usually they will respect you and by extension Christ - and this is really the whole point - for them to come to know Christ. In the end they might not get saved, but it will still be a seed that has been planted that might blossom down the road.

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ORIGINAL: rgod
First, there are people who have legitimately been hurt in church.

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So the kids learned that the Church was filled with hypocrites.

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I don't know if you grew up in church or if you were saved from a small child or teenager.

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So I urge you, if you are really giving people that one liner and aren't joking - I beg you to please consider that there are people who aren't just trying to "make excuses."

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rgod...I did not find manda59 comment offensive...So many people do make excuses about churches..Christ is the head of the church...the things that people do and say and act in the churches maynot be truly led by God...This other person that the op is referring to does not want to see anything beyond what they have already seen...Those are the most difficult people to witness to...Prayer and showing the way can helpt...

rgod..in the case of your friend...did she remain in the church? The key word you indicated here is "repeatly" how many time did she allow this deacon to abuse her...think about it...hard to convince others if one allows to be continuously abuse..I am not saying that it was not true...but did she speak up when it first occured??

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ORIGINAL: rgod

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rgod...I did not find manda59 comment offensive...So many people do make excuses about churches..Christ is the head of the church...the things that people do and say and act in the churches maynot be truly led by God...This other person that the op is referring to does not want to see anything beyond what they have already seen...Those are the most difficult people to witness to...Prayer and showing the way can helpt...

rgod..in the case of your friend...did she remain in the church? The key word you indicated here is "repeatly" how many time did she allow this deacon to abuse her...think about it...hard to convince others if one allows to be continuously abuse..I am not saying that it was not true...but did she speak up when it first occured??

Hi preserved! Perhaps our experiences are different, but in my experience as a person who didn't grow up in church, wasn't saved until she was an adult, and had lots and lots of unsaved friends - what I have found is that people who are not "in the church" often don't really think about church all that much or even know about it. And if they do, they are often informed by popular opinion which is often biased against christians. (When was the last time you saw a secular movie that showed Christians in a positive light? Now, think of the times that you've seen Christians in a negative line in the secular media? For most people - the second list is easier to come up with.). There are lots of people who want God, but don't equate God with church because there is a pervasive negative message about the church and christians. So all I am saying is, if a person talks about the church in a way that is unflattering - but instead of trying to really address that - we come back with an answer that can be viewed as being a bit flippant is not helping matters at all. Instead, if we assume (unless we are shown otherwise) that the person is truly misguided about church, and we take the time to show them Jesus, love and the truth trumps the lies that are being told about the church.

In the case of my friend, the abuse happened when she was a child and continued until she was a young teenager. At the time that she was talking about it - it was still very difficult for her - so it was not proper for me to get the number of times that she had been abused. She spoke up when it happened - to her mom first, and then eventually to the leadership. But no one believed her because the prevailing notion at the time was that "children lie." So she was made out to be the bad guy - and still had to attend his classes. No, she didn't "allow" the deacon to do anything to her - he just did it - he overpowered her. Kids don't allow abuse - someone more powerful does it to them. Think of it this way - if you had a seven year old daughter and some person sexually abused her - would you think it was her fault? Would you blame her or think that she allowed it? Maybe her underoos were showing? (I have no idea what kids wear today - I'm just using an example.) At that time as well - child abuse was still a shameful, hidden secret. To a kid, adults are often all powerful - and kids also blame themselves so often when they are abused. They think that they did something wrong or that they are dirty or did something shameful - when they weren't doing anything but being a kid. All I'm saying here is that a lot happens in the church - we are comfortable with the fact that it happens in catholic churches with the spate of priest child molestation cases. However, the same kinds of things happen in the protestant churches too - and often people take the side of the adult - as horrible as it may seem. She left that church when she moved away to go to college - it was very legalistic and they taught her that if she left that denomination that she would go to hell. It took a long time for her to get the bad teaching out of her - but she was exposed to the Word of God at another church and now she is free - praise God!

The main reason that I responded is because often, when people have been in church for a while - or for their whole lives - sometimes they forget about what it is like to be outside of the church (if they ever knew in the first place). The people who are not in church are not our enemies - satan is. I'm not trying to bash anyone or be cantakerous - I wish that you could hear my heart on this. But so often, the very people who seem to be hard-boiled when it comes to church or to Christ - can be reached if we just take the time to be patient and loving with them. Or at the very least, we can try to avoid doing things that would repel them - so that another person who has a heart for lost people can come in a minister to them. Again, I might have greater sensitivity about this because this is how I was - but if by me writing this it will be helpful to the next lost person who comes across the path of anyone reading this thread - it was worth every word.

Feel free to respond here or by PM if you want more clarification, or if I misunderstood something that you said. I'm not trying to fight, but to present a different view.

rgod

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ORIGINAL: rgod
First, there are people who have legitimately been hurt in church.

Absolutely, and I'm one of them.

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So the kids learned that the Church was filled with hypocrites.

It is. All of us are at some time or another. The call on us is to try and make sure we're not, not point the finger at what we think other people are.

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I don't know if you grew up in church or if you were saved from a small child or teenager.

My late father was an atheist, my mother is agnostic. I was saved through the outreach work of an evangelical church when I was 17.

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So I urge you, if you are really giving people that one liner and aren't joking - I beg you to please consider that there are people who aren't just trying to "make excuses."

If someone is truly seeking Christ, then their focus would be on Him, and the difference He could make in their lives, it wouldn't be on looking at other people and judging them.

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Excellent post!

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ORIGINAL: StephenJ

Well for my friend here were some of the things she saw that she didn't like.

-She saw church officials in back rooms counting large piles of money, and from her view it looked like some of them might have been taking some. She was very uncomfortable with it, and even mentioned the Bible passage about Jesus driving out the money changers.

-She felt that her youth group had basically become a place where people hung out (and hooked up) rather than pursued God.

-A friend of her's (a minor at the time) was doing some very unsaved things with a suppousedly Christian guy (who wasn't a minor.) The two of them were fooling around, but whenever the guy was around the girls parents he'd put on his Christian act.

-She's met some really legalistic, strict Christians.

-She also claims to have had a really disturbing vision like experience when someone at a certain church tried to baptize her.

So those are the ones she told me about.

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ORIGINAL: rgod

I was like this before I got saved. I personally wouldn't emphasize church a whole lot, but rather would focus on Christ. Point her to Jesus - after all it is Jesus who draws. Try to keep your own walk full of integrity and if you make a mistake, just admit it. Don't sugar coat anything or lie to her or attempt to spin the church to make it look good. Don't bash the church either - instead talk more about your personal relationship with Christ and lift Him up. If she is open to the bible, you can spend some time sharing from the scriptures with her.

The biggest impact that you'll have on her will probably be your own walk and the way in which you relate to her. If you have some good Christian friends who have a strong walk, you might want to invite her to do things with all of you as a group as well. Pray that God will bring godly women to befriend her as well. But above all, take your cues from God and pray, pray, pray for her.