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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 5:19:30 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2954
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I think he is seizing the opportunity to show Himself to be a prophet. Afterall, it is this foreknowledge about her marital situation that prompted her to testify to her whole community that He was a prophet. He already knew she was not married so I don't think He was making an appeal to fetch a husband He knew she did not have in order to teach her properly. And I find it hard to think Jesus cared much about what others thought about his association with loose women considering what kind of a woman He allowed to wash His head and feet in front of the Pharisees.
He might have been doing that also. However, this does not appear to me to be His standard practice. He tended to avoid recognition of who He was unless and/or until the listener was seriously interested.
Also, I made no mention of her character. It is just unseemly for a man to be alone with any woman who is not his wife or a close relative.
quote:
It's much more than just knowing the Temple would disappear in a few decades. The implication is that He Himself makes literal Temple worship old and obsolete. This is indicated by this statement:
"23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth..."
He is indicating that He is the reason they will neither worship on this mountain nor that mountain. Obviously, at this moment in time, nothing at all has changed, or has even begun to change literally, yet He says the time is now here. To me it's a clear reference to Himself being the agent of change, not the destruction of the Temple.
That is not the implication. It is your inference. That statement can be refering to the fact that worshiping in spirit and in truth is how it always should have been. We look forward to the day when more people worship Adonai properly and indeed there are some who do so now. The change is in how one views the Temple, not it's obsolecenese.
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This is another example of how Jesus is the embodiment of a 'time'. A time that the law speaks about through it's stringent commands and regulations for appointed days, weeks, months, and years. They foreshadow the absoulutely crucial and essential need to 'keep' the time table of Christ's coming. A time that we 'keep' by believing in His work and ministry. No deviation is allowed whatsoever. You deviate from the time of Christ's appearing at the peril of your life. That's the message of the laws of times and seasons of the OT.
That is an interesting view of the use of the word “time” in the Scripture. However, this again is your principle of interpretation that has yet to be proven as valid in our discussion. The Scriptures clearly state that the appointed times are for rememberence. Now, they may very well implicitly foreshadow future events also, but they explicitly remind us of Adonai’s provision.
quote:
My opinion of the passage is that the once literal and binding command to only sacrifice in Jerusalem will be replaced by the new way which is 'in Spirit and in Truth' which is neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria.
Isaiah 2:2 In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. 5 Come, O house of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the Lord.
Regarding the significance of Jerusalem, this and other passages make it clear that Jerusalem will continue to have significance in the Kingdom. Whether or not there will be sacrifices is not established by Scripture to my knowledge. Therefore, we can not say that the sacrifices have been replaced.
quote:
The Temple was the appointed place where God came down to meet man (above the mercy seat over the ark). Jesus has now become the place where God comes down to meet man and where mercy is given for the forgiveness of sins. And the dwelling place of this new ark of the covenant (Jesus) is by the Holy Spirit in the New Temple--the hearts of those who believe--thereby making the literal place of worship, and the command to only sacrifice there, old and obsolete. People who worship in this way are the kind of worshipers God desires:
"...true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
Here we see the ark of the covenant in the temple in Heaven. Now a lot of the revelation is imagery, but again we have not established that Yeshua(Jesus) is the new ark of the covenant. I always thought it was His blood on the mercy seat that covered the ark or the He is Ha Torah(The Word) who’s representation on earth is in the ark. Whatever the case, this extrapolation of principles from apocalyptic imagery is a long and complicated process and therefore, should be left until later, in my opinion. For now, I acknowledge that Adonai has always expected us to worship in Spirit and in Truth. We just have a different view of what that means, as I stated above.
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I believe worshiping in the new way is in direct contrast to the old way, not in addition to the old way. And not just because the old Temple is gone. The potentially deceitful external worship prescribed in the law has been replaced with the intended way that God desires by the Spirit, and in sincerity of heart according to the truth of what real worship is. This is what it means to worship 'in Spirit and in Truth'.
I agree that the new way is not in addition to the old way. I believe the new way is the old way as was always intended. External worship is not Holy as such, Ha Ruach(The Spirit) makes it Holy. The potential deceitfulness of “worship in the spirit” is in determining if it is Ha Ruach Adonai(The Spirit of the Lord) or some other spirit. The same also applies to truth. That is why we need Ha Torah to remind us of how Adonai interacts with us and who He is. Thus we need to worship in The Spirit and in The Truth.
Now, we are getting close to being derailed by various related issues. Let's try to stay focused on defining in Spirit and in Truth. If we need to set some groundwork, lets agree to do so and get back to the main topic as soon as possilble before we do.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 9:24:40 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 26
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the law. how about the 10 command_ents?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/17/2008 9:31:29 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7963
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Loyalgypsy,
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Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2008 7:06:40 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
...I find it hard to think Jesus cared much about what others thought about his association with loose women considering what kind of a woman He allowed to wash His head and feet in front of the Pharisees.
...I made no mention of her character. It is just unseemly for a man to be alone with any woman who is not his wife or a close relative.
Edit the word 'loose' out of my statement and it actually makes my point better. He cared little about what people would think about who he was seen with. I can't subscribe to your theory. But like you suggest, let's play with the 'in Spirit and in Truth' part of the story for now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
It's much more than just knowing the Temple would disappear in a few decades. The implication is that He Himself makes literal Temple worship old and obsolete. This is indicated by this statement:
"23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth..."
He is indicating that He is the reason they will neither worship on this mountain nor that mountain. Obviously, at this moment in time, nothing at all has changed, or has even begun to change literally, yet He says the time is now here. To me it's a clear reference to Himself being the agent of change, not the destruction of the Temple.
That is not the implication. It is your inference. That statement can be refering to the fact that worshiping in spirit and in truth is how it always should have been.
What you say would be more credible if Jesus's appearance actually had resulted in the union of literal Torah and the devoted hearts of His people. But in fact the exact opposite happened with Jesus's coming. The Temple got utterly destroyed several decades later. That's not a good defense for your theory that Jesus was instituting the joyful reunion of literal Torah obeservance and devoted hearts.
As I've said, the very fact that he says worship will be neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria is the evidence that 'in Spirit and in Truth' is not literal Torah. Neither history nor the passage itself supports the idea that Jesus meant worshipers would now be obeying literal Torah from the heart. How could He mean that and at the same time plainly say literal worship will be neither in Jerusalem nor the Mt. in Samaria?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
This is another example of how Jesus is the embodiment of a 'time'. A time that the law speaks about through it's stringent commands and regulations for appointed days, weeks, months, and years. They foreshadow the absoulutely crucial and essential need to 'keep' the time table of Christ's coming. A time that we 'keep' by believing in His work and ministry. No deviation is allowed whatsoever. You deviate from the time of Christ's appearing at the peril of your life. That's the message of the laws of times and seasons of the OT.
That is an interesting view of the use of the word “time” in the Scripture. However, this again is your principle of interpretation that has yet to be proven as valid in our discussion.
Maybe these passages will help validate the principle of interpretation for 'time' that I have set forth above:
"41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace-but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." (Luke 19:43-45)
" 54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? (Luke 12:54-57)
Jesus is indeed an appointed time that one must recognize and keep at the peril of one's life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The Scriptures clearly state that the appointed times are for rememberence. Now, they may very well implicitly foreshadow future events also, but they explicitly remind us of Adonai’s provision.
Maybe so. They just aren't required anymore. And furthermore, the way Jesus did tell us to remember His provision is not even part of the Mosaic Passover.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
My opinion of the passage is that the once literal and binding command to only sacrifice in Jerusalem will be replaced by the new way which is 'in Spirit and in Truth' which is neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria.
Isaiah 2:2 In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. 5 Come, O house of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the Lord.
Regarding the significance of Jerusalem, this and other passages make it clear that Jerusalem will continue to have significance in the Kingdom. Whether or not there will be sacrifices is not established by Scripture to my knowledge. Therefore, we can not say that the sacrifices have been replaced.
I'm not one to speculate too much about how the millenium will look. But I don't see any real reason to think Jerusalem will not be where Jesus rules from. And I've been trying to show everyone the law that will that will go out from Zion is not the letter of the law of the OT. It isn't now, and it won't be then. One thing we can all agree on is animal sacrifice for sin is not a part of the law now, nor will it be then.
I've been trying to show that 'law' in the NT does not include the rigid stipulations for external worship of the OT. Look at the very next verse after the one you embolded in your post:
"4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
The context is clearly in regard to the moral aspects of the law, not the ceremonial. The very thing I've been defending in this thread. I'm not suggesting there will be no semblence of OT worship in the millenium. I'm saying there is no evidence that it will be a hard and fast reinstitution of OT worship as you all claim.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
The Temple was the appointed place where God came down to meet man (above the mercy seat over the ark). Jesus has now become the place where God comes down to meet man and where mercy is given for the forgiveness of sins. And the dwelling place of this new ark of the covenant (Jesus) is by the Holy Spirit in the New Temple--the hearts of those who believe--thereby making the literal place of worship, and the command to only sacrifice there, old and obsolete. People who worship in this way are the kind of worshipers God desires:
"...true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Rev 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
Here we see the ark of the covenant in the temple in Heaven. Now a lot of the revelation is imagery, but again we have not established that Yeshua(Jesus) is the new ark of the covenant. I always thought it was His blood on the mercy seat that covered the ark or the He is Ha Torah(The Word) who’s representation on earth is in the ark. Whatever the case, this extrapolation of principles from apocalyptic imagery is a long and complicated process and therefore, should be left until later, in my opinion. For now, I acknowledge that Adonai has always expected us to worship in Spirit and in Truth. We just have a different view of what that means, as I stated above.
I'm not pretending to have all the definitive answers for understanding Revelation, but why can't the ark in Rev. 11:19 be Jesus? Especially considering that the ark of the OT is gone forever and will not be replaced. That ark has no place or significance in God's plan anymore according to Jeremiah.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
I believe worshiping in the new way is in direct contrast to the old way, not in addition to the old way. And not just because the old Temple is gone. The potentially deceitful external worship prescribed in the law has been replaced with the intended way that God desires by the Spirit, and in sincerity of heart according to the truth of what real worship is. This is what it means to worship 'in Spirit and in Truth'.
I agree that the new way is not in addition to the old way. I believe the new way is the old way as was always intended. External worship is not Holy as such, Ha Ruach(The Spirit) makes it Holy.
How can you say this? It is totally contrary to what Jesus is saying. He is saying to the woman at the well that the literal part of the 'old way' (worship can only be in Jerusalem) is not the way it will be anymore. How is the old literal way retained along with the new way by Jesus saying this? He's changing the old way by instituting a new a different way, not bringing us back to the old. It's impossible to make 'neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria' (my paraphrase) mean going back to the old way of Jerusalem exclusively. No interpretation is needed to understand this plain logic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The potential deceitfulness of “worship in the spirit” is in determining if it is Ha Ruach Adonai(The Spirit of the Lord) or some other spirit. The same also applies to truth. That is why we need Ha Torah to remind us of how Adonai interacts with us and who He is. Thus we need to worship in The Spirit and in The Truth.
Whoa! Slow down! I said external worship is the potentially deceitful thing, not worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. By definition 'in Spirit and in Truth' cannot be deceitful. External worship has the potential for being insincere and outward only.
I said I was going to Phillipians 3 next. Just as Jesus contrasts the old literal way with the new spiritual way in John 4, so Paul also contrasts the old way of literal circumcision with the new way of spiritual circumcision, and says circumcision of the heart, not outward circumcision, is how one worships 'in Spirit and in Truth'. They are not the same thing. He is hardly reinstituting the old and now calling it worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. He's drawing a very stark contrast between the two. He's not likening them to each other in the least. He's contrasting them sharply.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2008 12:14:36 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
This forum does not want to give the related multiple subjests space for discussion. It stays sterilized and neatly tucked away from many curious eyes..........
....of trolls, amen! Dear brother, glad you brought it up, for indeed – CW is blessed with excellent organizational structure and rules promoting the best atmosphere of spiritual growth for rookies and seasoned believers, great synergy. That is why I am personally here, not on one of many other online forums. Those "One Stops" are a great thing God Bless who invented those – it concentrates the debate and the thread has teaching value; vs. 10 threads of plain bickering on the essentially same subject.
May i give you another tip and, by God's merciful will, you be completely up to speed : this is a debate, not "one preaches- the rest amen! it". Your post has been commented on - don’t ignore the reply/critique, answer it. This way you will engage in a debate and make your point known. Prefferably not too many points at once.
Take the above as a compliment – I think you have something of value to contribute. You just need a bit of practical advice. I was helped by kindness and guidance a lovely woman mod and a couple of friends, back 1600 posts ago whne i wasnt sure i can fit with (mostly) americans.I feel i have to help you and one day you can quide another novice…Dont lose your indentity, just kick the love level up a notch :) Good luck, mani.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/18/2008 12:34:53 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
CW is blessed with excellent organizational structure and rules promoting the best atmosphere of spiritual growth for rookies and seasoned believers, great synergy.
I whole heartedly agree on this Odeliya.
quote:
i wasnt sure i can fit with (mostly) americans.
It is hard for different cultural mindsets to follow one another.
I seem to have formed my own cultural mindset, so I let the indian in me
do what indians do best, be quiet. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2008 3:31:49 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I seem to have formed my own cultural mindset, so I let the indian in me
do what indians do best, be quiet. lol.
Lapie! you mastered keeping your mouth shut- that is priceless quality! Mrs is one lucky, lucky woman! This precious skill you should bottle up and sell - i will be your biggest customer, i can use a horse size doze every day.
Where is everybody ? Whos is watching the shop? I thought we were debating the purpose of the law and such last, no? L, i agree with usefullness of the Law for practical purposes. What is next we disagree on, chief ? I am all ears.
 where is L, where is LG? adjusting the scope...ah..i see them..they r cleaning the rifles and opening the ammo boxes Yes!
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2008 4:43:17 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I seem to have formed my own cultural mindset, so I let the indian in me
do what indians do best, be quiet. lol.
Lapie! you mastered keeping your mouth shut- that is priceless quality! Mrs is one lucky, lucky woman! This precious skill you should bottle up and sell - i will be your biggest customer, i can use a horse size doze every day.
Where is everybody ? Whos is watching the shop? I thought we were debating the purpose of the law and such last, no? L, i agree with usefullness of the Law for practical purposes. What is next we disagree on, chief ? I am all ears.
where is L, where is LG? adjusting the scope...ah..i see them..they r cleaning the rifles and opening the ammo boxes Yes!
Must be relaxing incognito. lol.
I'll be gone tomorrow, got to go to the VA.
Then Sabbath, then another big work day sunday.
Then back here at work on Monday.
I can overdo the quite. lol.
When we were dating my wife would call and there'd be
silence on the phone for an hour. lol. Not talking, just connected.
Now, after 40 years, she answers all the phone calls.
I do most of my talking with the keyboard. lol.
Now, when I sermonize or discuss the Word, time gets away from me.
I don't do sports or any of the "manly" things. I can play music all day
if I'm on the piano. If I'm on the guitar, banjo, or especially the mandolin,
I don't last long. No callouses on the ends of my tootsies. Thirty minutes,
or an hour tops. If anyone in this area would want to practice, I could
develop some I suppose. lol.
I'm doing a verse by verse study in Galatians right now.
So, I'm busy developing a curriculum for that. Along with Hebrews.
I haven't finished that yet. Only on chapter nine.
And then there's the questions everyone wants answered.
Well, LOL.............
Shabat shalom.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2008 8:14:35 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I don't know, Odie, I didn't realize that my post were making any Bible sense to anybody but the one's who are practicing Torah. LOL Is my being on these forums enhancing and encouraging spiritual growth and sincere Bible studying, challenging common held beliefs in the light of scriptures or am I some nut with a few good points here and there but should be taken with a grain of salt?
Sunofone's post have been very encouraging, though.
I've been put on a curfew by the better half so my time on the computer is limited! LOL 
You know what I really want to discuss...our identity in Christ. I really believe that we are the ingathering remnant of Israel being restored in the last days. This was prophesied in Deutoronomy, Hosea, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and other prophets. So much has been about being the church......then there's Israel or Judah. Is there a separate, individual identity yet one in Messiah, sort of like a "spiritual Israel" and "natural Israel" in your minds?
Why or why not? Do support what you say with scripture?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/19/2008 9:16:08 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
or am I some nut with a few good points
No, dear, of course. You are not a nut, you are a bolt with a few good points. 
quote:
Sunofone's post have been very encouraging, though.
I am also interested in a debate for i want to learn something new and appreciate all input just as much as Sunofone. And, just as him, I disagree with Lit T Camp : )
will answer the rest later, gotta run.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2008 9:12:11 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
You know what I really want to discuss...our identity in Christ. I really believe that we are the ingathering remnant of Israel being restored in the last days. This was prophesied in Deutoronomy, Hosea, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and other prophets. So much has been about being the church......then there's Israel or Judah. Is there a separate, individual identity yet one in Messiah, sort of like a "spiritual Israel" and "natural Israel" in your minds?
Why or why not? Do support what you say with scripture?
I'm shocked at how uncomfortable Messianics are with calling all in the Body of believers the 'Church'. If Jesus called His people the Church (long before this matter of the Gentiles was an issue), then why should anybody have such a problem with it?
"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." (Matt. 16:18)
"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." (Matt. 18:17)
Even early in Acts before the great influx of Gentiles, the body of believers is referred to as the Church.
"Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events." (Acts 5:11)
I guess the real question is, 'is it appropriate to call the Church 'Israel'? Now, that's a toughy, because it depends on the context you use it in. From a purely earth bound point of view I would say 'no'. But in view of eternity and from a spiritual perspective, I would say 'yes'.
Paul clearly makes the case for a 'spiritual' Israel, and a 'spiritual' Jew, and 'spiritual' children of Abraham. And it is them that are considered the reality, not them who are among those by nature only.
And if the new qualifying mark of an Israelite, and a Jew, and a child of Abraham is purely spiritual (as Paul teaches), and the old natural identifiers mean absolutely nothing now, I think it's safe to say I'm now a part of spiritual Israel and a descendant of Abraham by virtue of the Holy Spirit. Paul does clearly teach that all believers are offspring of Abraham (because we who believe have been joined, or grafted into, Jesus--who is indeed a natural descendant and child of Abraham).
All of this has led me to the conclusion that 'Israel' means much more than what it used to, and that all of new Israel are blessed equally and without distinction since God Himself makes no distinction between us.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2008 12:04:41 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Is my being on these forums enhancing and encouraging spiritual growth and sincere Bible studying, challenging common held beliefs in the light of scriptures or am I some nut with a few good points here and there but should be taken with a grain of salt?
on a serious note - of course, we all are here enhancing and encouraging and motivating study and showing each other love,the only only thing of lasting value.The grass withers and the flower fades.... But to a degree we are all nuts at times. In the joint that Jews and Jew sympths frequent- were, pray hell, should agreement be expected to come from, beloved brother?:)
We dont need to agree on theol. to be brothers and sisters, so all goes as planned so far.
quote:
You know what I really want to discuss...our identity in Christ. I really believe that we are the ingathering remnant of Israel being restored in the last days. This was prophesied in Deutoronomy, Hosea, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and other prophets. So much has been about being the church......then there's Israel or Judah. Is there a separate, individual identity yet one in Messiah, sort of like a "spiritual Israel" and "natural Israel" in your minds?
You are "spiritual" and i get to double dip :) Are we headed towards laws with this, my friend, that is what i want to discuss. So I will be short–I agree with good ol’ spongie, he always helps me. Answered succinctly vs. my prolonged whining.
You are not trying to drag a poor defenseless woman into Replacement, Covenant and such theology debate? I disagree with both – in a way it’ s usually presented. But i respect you L and would debate it , in moderation, if you say were getting somewhere with this and its needed here.
quote:
I've been put on a curfew by the better half so my time on the computer is limited! LOL May God bless her ways richly. General rabbinical teaching,(heavily influenced by clinical talmudists and other fairytales) has it that man would've been even worse off if woman werent gotten into the picture.We keep you from selfdestruction. Unmarried person is seen as incomplete (and modern version has it : and married is finished). : )
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Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2008 1:50:40 PM
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LBolt
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It is something of interest. The reason being in I Cor. 10, Israel is referred to as the "church in the wilderness", church being ekklesia. Eklessia is used in the Septuagint of the OT. In Galations, Paul says,"If ye be Christ, then are ye Abraham's seed", the word seed is the greek word "sperma" meaning literal offspring or spiritual. This is one that will need to be further studied. I believe that like their was a mixed multitude that came out of Egypt were all called and considered "Israel" so is today in the spiritual and natural because in Ephesians we are apart of the common wealth of Israel. Whether one is indeed physical Israel who was assimilated into the nations as Gen, Deut, et al, prophesies, only God knows. Hey I just had a though, if we are indeed Israel whether through birth or engraftment, if Torah is required for them.... Ah!!!!!Silky, silky now!! LOL
Much like a foreigner who comes to the US, becomes a citizens and is granted full rights and priveleges and is considered "American." You have to adhere to the laws of the land of your citizenry.
Just a thought, I don't know what more about the Torah we can discuss. Sponge and Blue have their discussion and I don't want to break their focus or derail their discussion somewhere else. Odie, you pick the bone! LOL
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/20/2008 2:05:13 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2008 5:01:20 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
BABIES KEEP THE FEASTS
From the time a child is conceived to the time he is born parallels the Biblical Feasts
of YHWH that He revealed to Israel when they came out of Egypt.
The gestation period parallels the Feasts of YHWH.
Passover
Exodus 12 we find Passover instituted.
It begins the 14th day of the first month.
Gestation:
On the 14th day of the first month the mothers egg appears.
Unleavened Bread
Must occur the very next night, on the 15th of the month,
or the feast process will fail.
Gestation:
Fertilization of the egg must occur within 24 hours or the
fertilization process will fail.
First Fruits
The Feast of First Fruits occurs next, on the Sunday during the
week of Unleavened Bread. It can be from 2-6 days after the Feast of
Unleavened Bread and is called the Spring Planting of Seed.
Gestation:
The fertilized egg travels down the tube at its own pace taking anywhere
from 2-6 days before it implants. This is the Planting of the Egg.
Shavuot (Pentecost)
Pentecost comes 50 days later.
Gestation:
On the 50th day the embryo begins to form into a person. (Baby!)
Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement)
The Day of Atonement is celebrated on the tenth day of the seventh month.
Blood is taken into the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle.
Gestation:
On the tenth day of the seventh month the production of red blood cells is
taken over by the bone marrow --- the inner sanctum of the babies tabernacle.
Tabernacles
The Feast of Tabernacles follow on the 15th day of the seventh month.
This is traditional celebration of God breathing the breath of life into Adam.
But, Tabernacles is so much more.
Gestation:
By the 15th day of the seventh month the child is capable of breathing air.
He or she is a developed "tabernacle" and can be born. However, to achieve
maximum strength the child should continue to grow inside its mother for
another 80 days. It can thereafter be born and dedicated to the Lord.
Dedication
The Feast of Dedication is 80 days later.
Greetings L
quote:
Exodus 12 we find Passover instituted.
It begins the 14th day of the first month.
L it is written that when one was unable to keep that Passover that they would be allowed to participate on the 14th day of the second month.
Have you done any studies on that aspect; or is there any relativities with the above you offered?
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 6/21/2008 9:20:56 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2008 6:07:09 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
Poor LBolt you ran out something to write. I ashame for you , I thought you could least keep repeating what you have written earlier . This thread needs to catch up with the Calvins vs. the Anabaptist thread . Come on give the old college try or one for the Gipper.
By the way I'm just kidding. If you read the Todd Bentely thread; according to the body pierceing and tatooed gentleman. The return is just around the bend.-McLeod
LOL
I was doing some more reading last night in Numbers, here's a point I didn't really consider. The Feast of YHWH, especially the pilgrim, solemn feasts centered around the Temple (or the place where YAH placed His name) and Jerusalem. So whether these feast are "mandatory" right now would probably be stretching it. I know this may raise some eyebrows from people like Lapie, BJay...I believe in the spirit of the holiday we should acknowledge it in it's season, learn about it, and I'd say practice the feast however, I not going to contend anymore of someone being "off" if they don't celebrate it. However, in light of the pagan holidays, if we can celebrate something with pagan roots, painted Christian, why not celebrate something that it is God breath and has very important prophetic markings.
I'd say that they are missing out still and that "communion" is nothing more than a water down Pesach. If you
can keep "communion" in remembrance of Messiah, you can keep the feast out of joyfulness of heart in commenmoration of the Red Sea deliverance and more importantly the death, burial and resurrection of your Savior. I still say the Feast are critical to understanding end-time events and that they are God's timetable and appointed times.
I already can hear the other side jumping and shouting...LOL
"I see the white flag!!!!!!" LOL
Like I said in previous posts, I'm really not here to defend dogmas or a particular side, I'm here to be a blessing and present the truth in accurancy.
I still contend that Sabbath is of relevance today and that we are missing the mark for not observing it.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/20/2008 6:41:05 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I'm really not here to defend dogmas or a particular side, I'm here to be a blessing and present the truth in accuracy.
Greetings,
To assist.....
Perhaps a good going over of the truth of Ex 20:19; as it is reiterated in Deuteronomy 18:15-22; and therefore fulfilled and explained in Matthew 21:33-46 would shed some light also?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/21/2008 2:22:03 AM
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manichunter
Posts: 18
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Is spiritual torah real?
I believe the Torah has been brought forth in spirit. The letter was the shadow.
Here is how spiritual torah applies in some examples not within the intelligence of most Christians. Most Christians are clueless concerning the whys.
1.Circumcision (Spiritually impregnated and adopted into a new spiritual kingdom by a spiritual covenant)
Physical circumcision is no longer practiced, but a person still has to be circumcised. Now circumcision is no longer physical but spiritual. Hence the shadow has been taken away but replaced by the actual. Why is circumcision still necessary? How is this circumcision done?
Ro 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Jer 9:26
Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."
2.Sacrificial offering system (Spiritually living and performing the ceremonial requirements of Torah)
The animal and meal offerings are no longer practiced, but a believer still has to offer sacrifices as a royal priest. Now sacrifices are no longer physical but spiritual. Hence the shadow has been taken away but replaced by the actual. How are sacrifices preformed? What did Paul mean by himself being used as a drink offering for others? Is God requiring the same from believers in order for them to be sacrifices?
1Pe 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Ro 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
Php 2:17
Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.
3.Commandments/Instructions for doctrine (Making talmidims of Jesus with the use of His commandments)
The written letter of the torah has been transplanted, but a believer stills needs to be disciplined and taught how to relate to God. Now the physical torah is no longer physical but spiritual. Hence the shadow has been taken away but replaced with the actual. The torah has been transplanted onto the spirit of a believer which made his adoption and citizenship complete in a New KINGOM. Why is the torah written on a believer’s heart? Why does Jesus tell us to keep his torah if we love Him?
Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Ro 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Joh 14:15
"If you love Me, keep My commandments.
2Jo 1:6
This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
Mt 28:19-20 19Go therefore F165 and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. F166
2Ti 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
4.We are actually held accountable to higher standard of torah since the revelation of spiritual torah has been manifested. Now we are judged and chastised for more than our actions but our motives and mindset have been added. We preach that the torah is done away with, but God is chastising and judging His saints for deeper things because the standards of the torah have been elevated and permanently engraved on our heart. What we do in flesh is a manifestation of our soul state of obedience to love and holiness in behavior and attitude. Hence the condition of a man’s soul bears fruit in our actions. So sin is to be known in our inward parts now, not just our acts, but now things like our bad attitude, pride, hate, and hypocrisy are included. It is now a sin to entertained adultery where as in the First Covenant just the act of committing adultery was judged as sin.
Jesus gave us the friend of the bridegroom to prepare His bride for the wedding. The Holy Spirit's job is to sanctify Christians post spiritual birth by removing the power of sin over their life. Only He as God knows what it takes to sanctify people who fool themselves (we all are born with a deceitful wicked heart that the Spirit has to expose and sanctify). Torah could never be accomplished in the flesh, but it can be accomplished by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Eze 36:27
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Ro 8:4
that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Joh 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Mt 15:11
Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
Mt 5:28
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
1Jo 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings
There is more…………. But I am sleepy, my flesh is weak and acting up LOL
< Message edited by manichunter -- 6/22/2008 12:22:36 AM >
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/21/2008 10:18:56 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I'm really not here to defend dogmas or a particular side, I'm here to be a blessing and present the truth in accuracy.
Greetings,
To assist.....
Perhaps a good going over of the truth of Ex 20:19; as it is reiterated in Deuteronomy 18:15-22; and therefore fulfilled and explained in Matthew 21:33-46 would shed some light also?
LG
 ah sheli...
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/21/2008 11:32:33 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
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LG, I don't know what to say or think about your last post. Please clarify.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 12:22:09 AM
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manichunter
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/2/2008
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It the law was done away with and Christ fulfilled the law, why did the Holy Spirit come on the Day of Pentecost. Did God forget He was not to use a first covenant Holy Day within His new covenant?
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:13:40 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
It the law was done away with and Christ fulfilled the law...
This is too broad of a question and fails miserably to properly represent the 'non literal Torah' view I know we're all guilty at one time or another of unfairly sizing up the opposing viewpoint with broad generalities, but you need to be more specific by what you mean by 'done away with', because we all know Jesus plainly said He did not come to abolish the law (as we understand 'abolish'), yet we are in fact released from some literal aspects of Torah. Even you must admit that truth as seen in animal sacrifice, circumcision, etc....
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
Did God forget He was not to use a first covenant Holy Day within His new covenant?
Who in this forum says God is 'not' to use these? You are free to follow your convictions in regard to holy days, and Festivals, and so on. I'm guessing you probably don't follow the laws of uncleanness as detailed in Leviticus (up until a person has to go to a priest and make an offering of course).
I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you are indeed avoiding unclean people and the things they touch as commanded in the law. And that you are isolating yourself when you are unclean as required under the law, but they are so stringent and restricting that you probably don't.
As far as I can tell, no one else in this forum from the literal Torah camp does. How do you get around the strict observance of the laws of uncleanness without relying on some degree of the law having been 'fulfilled' by Christ on your behalf and thereby releasing you from the letter of the law regarding uncleanness?
Maybe you have a wonderful answer, maybe you don't. Please don't blow this question off. I'm curious. I can't think of any other way around these literal requirements apart from something having been fulfilled that now makes it not necessary to keep the letter of the law.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/22/2008 9:20:06 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:40:09 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
It the law was done away with and Christ fulfilled the law...
This is too broad of a question and fails miserably to properly represent the 'non literal Torah' view I know we're all guilty at one time or another of unfairly sizing up the opposing viewpoint with broad generalities, but you need to be more specific by what you mean by 'done away with'
Yes, pretty please, Mani, and give the more specific definition of the Law while you are at it, so I e know exactly what you mean by law ,in your context.
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LBolt you ran out something to write. I ashame for you 
, I thought you could least keep repeating what you have written earlier 
. This thread needs to catch up with the Calvins vs. the Anabaptist thread 
. Come on give the old college try or one for the Gipper. 
