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Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 9:50:19 AM
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Peregrin1972
Posts: 9
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I'm sorry I made such mess of things with my first post. Please forgive me.
< Message edited by Peregrin1972 -- 11/6/2009 4:43:59 PM >
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:01:42 AM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 678
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What are you wanting to see happen as a result of telling?
_____________________________
God IS love. And he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him. I John 4:17 amp
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:10:09 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 7828
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Unless you made it clear to him that you didn't want to have sex at that moment then it wasn't technically rape. But yes, you should bring it up in counseling.
_____________________________
In 20 years from now, you’ll be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Explore. Dream. Discover
Mark Twain
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:10:10 AM
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Peregrin1972
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I have no desire for revenge, if that's what you're asking. My hope is that it will bring my husband to repentance.
Also, I need to deal with this issue (and many others) as part of my own healing and growth.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:16:15 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 4043
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Did you tell him no or in any way indicate that you were unwilling? If you had gotten up and left, would he have restrained you or hurt you? Were you in fear for your physical safety if you said no?
If not, simply being "a dead fish" to him I don't think would qualify as rape.  That he was so desperate is pretty sad, but it's not uncommon for women to "lie there and take it" and man to be so pathetically hurt by rejection that he'll take what he can get. If you did not want it, but did not tell him so, did not move away or get up and leave, I'm not sure how you could count that as rape. Especially if you had been consistently rejecting him for years, and he didn't force you during that time, that you didn't protest or go away he may have taken as a sign of progress. What your actions said was "OK fine, you can have it but I'm not going to enjoy it, so there." I'm not sure about the laws, but I doubt that a counselor would be obligated to report it unless you state that it was a rape and that you were restrained or forced in some way.
Have you actually talked with your husband about this? Have you heard his heart on what happened? If he is a generally decent human being, I'd be willing to bet he's ashamed and sickened by his behavior, and hurt that the woman he loves can't seem to love him back.  And the years when you were going through all this blackness and pushing him away, do you know or want to know what that did to him?
I think you both owe each other apologies. He for those incidents of insensitivity and self-serving behavior (because it certainly was all that, no question about it), and you for how many years? of rejecting and hurting him.
_____________________________
 Moo
The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:45:46 AM
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dnp200450
Posts: 610
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quote:
Is this rape? It wasn't violent, and I didn't verbally protest or physically resist, but it was definitely unwanted.
If you have said no or you physically resisted it would have been rape because it was clearly against your will. If you would have been asleep or unconscious and unaware he had sex we you that would be considered rape in most, if not all States. Legally speaking, the other problem is that you said you allowed him to have sex with you in this matter three or four times. I don’t see there being a case for rape because in your own words you said, “it wasn’t violent, and I didn’t verbally protest or physically resist.”
quote:
If I tell my pastor or a counselor about this, is he/she obligated to inform the authorities? I love my husband and want to forgive him and make every possible effort to reconcile with him, but at the same time I know I must deal with all my issues, no matter how painful, even if it makes my husband angry. We have a counseling appointment for November 12; should I bring it up then? At a later couples counseling appointment? Or should I wait until I'm being privately counseled by someone (which will likely start after November 12). If I do decide to tell, would it be better to tell my pastor first, or the counselor?
There is nothing to tell the pastor or counselor because you were awake, did not say “no” and did not resist when he first touched/kissed you or started taking off your cloths. No where in your post did you say you were threatened or coerced in to having sex. Also you allowed this to happen multiple times. So you were in fact a willing participant.
I am not a criminal attorney but I would venture to guess there is nothing here to work with.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:47:52 AM
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Anon101
Posts: 200
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peregrin1972
It was during this black time (2007 or 2008, I can't remember which) that my husband became so desperate for sex that one night, after indicating with touches and kisses that he wanted to make love to me (to which I didn't respond but just lay there like a dead fish, I'm ashamed to say), he proceeded to remove my clothing and have sex with me. He did this three or four times over the next few weeks.
Is this rape? It wasn't violent, and I didn't verbally protest or physically resist, but it was definitely unwanted.
Any help/hope/prayers you can offer is greatly appreciated.
I'm posting blind. I have not read any of the other answers.
I hope my answer isn't going to offend anyone who has been abused in this way. Please forgive me if it does. I'm just stating what I believe and what I believe the bible says on this issue.
I'm sorry for the horrible depression you've endured for so many years. I know all too well what depression feels like and I was actually clinically depressed and hospitalized back in the mid 90's so I know what you've gone through.
I don't believe that what your husband did constitutes rape. Rape is usually more about control then pleasure. It is a violent act and the abuser is left with mental and emotional scars that last for a lifetime if not dealt with by a good counselor.
I must say though that our bodies our not our own anymore once we marry. I'm not saying this gives your husband carte blanch to do whatever he wants to do to you, this just mean that sometimes we need to sacrifice our own desires or lack thereof to give to our spouse. Unfortunately the 'dead fish' act happens more than you'd probably think. Having sex even though you're not in the mood or don't want to is even addressed in the bible...
"The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does. Do not refuse one another [or to put it more bluntly, as the Greek actually does and as we read in the King James Version, "Defraud ye not one the other"] except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control. {1 Cor 7:3-5 RSV}"
I doubt that it was the most enjoyable experience for either of you. Nobody wants sex forced on them and I'm pretty sure your husband would much rather have a willing partner. When sex occurs like that, it is just a physical act and not much love is exchanged.
Since you didn't respond to your husband by saying "NO!" I do not believe this constitutes rape. Your husband made love to you even though you didn't want it. Men and women both need intimacy in a marriage. Unfortunately, many men go outside the marriage to get it if they are not getting any affection at home. I am not excusing that behavior nor am I saying it is right. What I do know is that Satan knows how to tempt a man (or woman), especially when they are weak or having marital difficulties. We all would hope that our spouses are strong enough and Godly enough to not cheat and discuss what is going on with the other spouse. Unfortunately, many times the person is not spiritually strong enough to ward off these temptations. That is why I believe Paul addressed it in the bible. Cheating is a horrible offense God and to the marriage bed and God doesn't want any of His children to endure that emotional pain.
I've tried to be so careful as to not offend anyone that I may have lost the intent of my post. I really hope that is not the case.
< Message edited by Lorilynn777 -- 11/5/2009 10:56:19 AM >
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:56:29 AM
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Peregrin1972
Posts: 9
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Thank you all for your replies. I have already asked my husband several times to forgive me for the pain I've caused him (in general terms), and plan to continue to do so. I fully accept responsibility for the part I've played in our problems. I have no intention of accusing him of raping me; however, if it comes up in the counseling session, I'm concerned that the counselor will be obligated to tell the authorities. I don't want my husband to go to jail for this. I'd much rather see him repent, and I will gladly forgive him if he does. If he tries to deny or justify his actions instead, it'll be harder to forgive him, but I know that God will give me grace to do it even then.
My husband and I want to be able to trust and communicate with each other, and are working toward that goal (although he is still convinced that divorce is his only option), but we're not there yet. I fear that no matter what I do or say, it'll be "too little too late".
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 10:59:33 AM
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dnp200450
Posts: 610
Joined: 5/30/2009
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quote:
Since you didn't respond to your husband by saying "NO!" I do not believe this constitutes rape. Your husband made love to you even though you didn't want it. Men and women both need intimacy in a marriage. Unfortunately, many men go outside the marriage to get it if they are not getting any affection at home. I am not excusing that behavior nor am I saying it is right. What I do know is that Satan knows how to tempt a man (or woman), especially when they are weak or having marital difficulties. We all would hope that our spouses are strong enough and Godly enough to not cheat and discuss what is going on with the other spouse. Unfortunately, many times the person is not spiritually strong enough to ward off these temptations. That is why I believe Paul addressed it in the bible. Cheating is a horrible offense God and to the marriage bed and God doesn't want any of His children to endure that emotional pain.
Cheating is not the only problem sexual denial can cause. The spouse denied is far more likely to get hooked on pornography, self-pleasuring and deviancy. Combine this with the absolute hatred for the one denying and you get a receipt for martial disaster and physical violent.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 11:01:21 AM
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dnp200450
Posts: 610
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quote:
I'd much rather see him repent, and I will gladly forgive him if he does. If he tries to deny or justify his actions instead, it'll be harder to forgive him, but I know that God will give me grace to do it even then.
Repent for what? You did not say no or try to make him stop.
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Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 11:02:55 AM
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pink..
Posts: 11165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peregrin1972
After fourteen years of a difficult marriage, my husband is planning to divorce me. I initially agreed to the divorce, but two days later I had a spiritual awakening of sorts and changed my mind. Since then, I have been praying for and working toward reconciliation, but my husband is unmoved.
Now--one of the major problems in our marriage was, naturally, sex. Once we started having children (about 3 years into our marriage), my sex drive plummeted (and has never fully recovered). My husband tried a few different things to get me interested in him again, and sometimes I responded, but for the past 4-5 years I've pushed him away much more than I should have.
In November 2006 my youngest brother was diagnosed with terminal liver cancer, and he died two days before Christmas 2006. This sent me into a tailspin--I'd been struggling with depression since the fourth grade, but my brother's death sent me into the blackest period of my life, into a depression that didn't lift until my spiritual awakening in June 2009.
Have you sought any type of counseling?
quote:
It was during this black time (2007 or 2008, I can't remember which) that my husband became so desperate for sex that one night, after indicating with touches and kisses that he wanted to make love to me (to which I didn't respond but just lay there like a dead fish, I'm ashamed to say), he proceeded to remove my clothing and have sex with me. He did this three or four times over the next few weeks.
Is this rape? It wasn't violent, and I didn't verbally protest or physically resist, but it was definitely unwanted.
What do you think?
quote:
If I tell my pastor or a counselor about this, is he/she obligated to inform the authorities? I love my husband and want to forgive him and make every possible effort to reconcile with him, but at the same time I know I must deal with all my issues, no matter how painful, even if it makes my husband angry. We have a counseling appointment for November 12; should I bring it up then? At a later couples counseling appointment? Or should I wait until I'm being privately counseled by someone (which will likely start after November 12). If I do decide to tell, would it be better to tell my pastor first, or the counselor?
I don't believe that they are required to report it to authorities. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
quote:
Any help/hope/prayers you can offer is greatly appreciated.
I sure will pray for you.
ETA: Welcome to the forums!
< Message edited by PinkCarnations -- 11/5/2009 11:09:42 AM >
_____________________________
Gratitude is a vaccine, an antitoxin and an antiseptic.
~ John Henry Jowett
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 11:19:13 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 2126
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Did you tell him no or in any way indicate that you were unwilling? If you had gotten up and left, would he have restrained you or hurt you? Were you in fear for your physical safety if you said no?
If not, simply being "a dead fish" to him I don't think would qualify as rape. That he was so desperate is pretty sad, but it's not uncommon for women to "lie there and take it" and man to be so pathetically hurt by rejection that he'll take what he can get. If you did not want it, but did not tell him so, did not move away or get up and leave, I'm not sure how you could count that as rape. Especially if you had been consistently rejecting him for years, and he didn't force you during that time, that you didn't protest or go away he may have taken as a sign of progress. What your actions said was "OK fine, you can have it but I'm not going to enjoy it, so there." I'm not sure about the laws, but I doubt that a counselor would be obligated to report it unless you state that it was a rape and that you were restrained or forced in some way.
Have you actually talked with your husband about this? Have you heard his heart on what happened? If he is a generally decent human being, I'd be willing to bet he's ashamed and sickened by his behavior, and hurt that the woman he loves can't seem to love him back. And the years when you were going through all this blackness and pushing him away, do you know or want to know what that did to him?
I think you both owe each other apologies. He for those incidents of insensitivity and self-serving behavior (because it certainly was all that, no question about it), and you for how many years? of rejecting and hurting him.
totally agree with this answer. There are problems on both sides. As wives we arent to deprive our husbands of sex expecially for long periods, and he shouldnt have done what he did, but I cant see that it was in anyway rape if you said nothing did nothing and in no way indicated that he should stop. Sadly many men probably have to have sex with their wives who dont respond and it is a very sad situation for all concerned. Some men who are deprived long term will have affairs instead.
Did you know that you can actually be responsive and have sex wiht your husband even if your sex drive has fallen and even if you have no sex drive at all? Just do it becuase you love your husband, and becuase he needs sex with his wife. if we all waitied till we both 'felt' like it at the same time it may never happen. Its a very important part of marriage.
I am sure that counselling will help you both as long as you are both prepared to admit to your own failings and work on your own issues and not blame the other person for all of the problems.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 11:23:26 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 2126
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peregrin1972
Thank you all for your replies. I have already asked my husband several times to forgive me for the pain I've caused him (in general terms), and plan to continue to do so. I fully accept responsibility for the part I've played in our problems. I have no intention of accusing him of raping me; however, if it comes up in the counseling session, I'm concerned that the counselor will be obligated to tell the authorities. I don't want my husband to go to jail for this. I'd much rather see him repent, and I will gladly forgive him if he does. If he tries to deny or justify his actions instead, it'll be harder to forgive him, but I know that God will give me grace to do it even then.
My husband and I want to be able to trust and communicate with each other, and are working toward that goal (although he is still convinced that divorce is his only option), but we're not there yet. I fear that no matter what I do or say, it'll be "too little too late".
He wont go to jail as there is no reason to say that it was rape. If you have counselling dont even mention the word rape, Say the truth that you didnt respond, but didnt resist either. THAT is the truth. Raoe is not the word that applies here.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 11:25:30 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 7828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peregrin1972
My husband and I want to be able to trust and communicate with each other, and are working toward that goal (although he is still convinced that divorce is his only option), but we're not there yet. I fear that no matter what I do or say, it'll be "too little too late".
You are on the right track by both of you going to counseling together. May God's blessings rain down on you both.
_____________________________
In 20 years from now, you’ll be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Explore. Dream. Discover
Mark Twain
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 11:34:10 AM
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Anon101
Posts: 200
Joined: 10/21/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dnp200450
quote:
Since you didn't respond to your husband by saying "NO!" I do not believe this constitutes rape. Your husband made love to you even though you didn't want it. Men and women both need intimacy in a marriage. Unfortunately, many men go outside the marriage to get it if they are not getting any affection at home. I am not excusing that behavior nor am I saying it is right. What I do know is that Satan knows how to tempt a man (or woman), especially when they are weak or having marital difficulties. We all would hope that our spouses are strong enough and Godly enough to not cheat and discuss what is going on with the other spouse. Unfortunately, many times the person is not spiritually strong enough to ward off these temptations. That is why I believe Paul addressed it in the bible. Cheating is a horrible offense God and to the marriage bed and God doesn't want any of His children to endure that emotional pain.
Cheating is not the only problem sexual denial can cause. The spouse denied is far more likely to get hooked on pornography, self-pleasuring and deviancy. Combine this with the absolute hatred for the one denying and you get a receipt for martial disaster and physical violent.
I COMPLETELY agree. I just used one of the many sinful and destructive outcomes denial of sexual relations within a marriage can cause. Trust me, I know. The situation is reversed in my instance.
ANYTIME the issue of "rape" is addressed I am so very careful to try to choose my words correctly because of the seriousness of rape. I do not believe the poster was raped but there are people who read this who have been so I was very selective in my choice of words as to not negate the seriousness of the accusation but also let the poster know that marital relations are important and biblical.
Thanks for addressing the other devastating issues that occur if one spouse does deny the other on a regular basis. Knowing all of the effects of this behavior is important.
Counseling is important but I do want to mention hormonal therapy (her drive went down after having a baby) is very important, too. Having a baby messes with your hormonal balance and can be corrected.
< Message edited by Lorilynn777 -- 11/5/2009 11:59:56 AM >
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 12:08:23 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 610
Joined: 5/30/2009
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quote:
Counseling is important but I do want to mention hormonal therapy (her drive went down after having a baby) is very important, too. Having a baby messes with your hormonal balance and can be corrected.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I first read this. It could be postpartum hormonal imbalance combined with the long-term depression mentioned? To make matters worse having your younger brother die of terminal cancer two days before XMAS is enough to depress anyone.
On a somewhat related point; Peregrin1972, did anything traumatic happen to trigger the initial childhood depression you experienced?
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 12:13:39 PM
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Peregrin1972
Posts: 9
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dnp: I've thought about that myself, and the only thing I've ever come up with is that my 4th grade teacher (female) once took me into a separate room at school and yelled at me. To this day I have no idea why she did that, nor do I remember what she said. I've wondered if this is what set off my initial depression, but it seems like such a small thing.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 12:57:15 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 610
Joined: 5/30/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peregrin1972
dnp: I've thought about that myself, and the only thing I've ever come up with is that my 4th grade teacher (female) once took me into a separate room at school and yelled at me. To this day I have no idea why she did that, nor do I remember what she said. I've wondered if this is what set off my initial depression, but it seems like such a small thing.
Have you been getting help for the depression? Have you seen a physician about the low drive issue? If not, perhaps an endocrinologist would be the best one to see. The reason I say that is if you have hormonal problems they could also have an affect on multiple systems. The depression and low drive could very well be related. Likewise hormonal problems can cause problems such as bone density loss. I am not saying you have a hormonal issue for sure. I just recommend you see an endocrinologist so they can do a battery of tests. You and your husband should not suffer due to a previously diagnosed condition.
As a matter of fact I would strongly recommend seeing the endocrinologist before seeing anyone else. At least try to rule out any physical/hormonal problems first. I would not want a psychiatrist prescribing you pills or a pastor/counselor claiming you are a disobedient wife if they are clueless to your medical status. I will try to stay within the Terms of Service of this forum with what I am about to say next. Being an unwanting sexual participant can be physically damaging and painfully. So I am sure it was very difficult for you. You don't have to suffer, there is help.
Also you should be screened for various types of cancer that may run in your family. My mother had breast cancer but it was caught very early (stage 0). She has been cancer free for over 6 years, praise the Lord! So get those test. Then from their you might want to find a good trained Christian marriage counselor.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 2:23:10 PM
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seagullplayer
Posts: 286
Joined: 9/18/2007
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Sounds like your husband has done his best to try and make things work with an unresponsive wife for most of 14 years. This is something you and him should have talked about long ago on your own. It sounds like you where completely unwilling to do anything to save the marriage until he decided he wanted out.
I really don’t think this is the big issue that you all need help working out.
_____________________________
The world has only one problem, sin.
There is only one solution, Jesus.
Seems a lot of people watch evangelist on TV and call it going to church.
My kids use to play Mario Cart and think they where driving…
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 5:22:01 PM
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PastorSteveMT
Posts: 157
Joined: 5/27/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peregrin1972
Is this rape? It wasn't violent, and I didn't verbally protest or physically resist, but it was definitely unwanted.
You didn't protest in any way...he wasn't violent....and you are thinking it's rape? Wow.
I would highly advise you to get into some very good, Godly, Christian counseling individually to find out what is going on inside of you where a married woman continually for years rejects her husband sexually and then considers it rape when he does have sex with you.
I don't mean that as an insult...just stating the facts. Either someone put some horrific thoughts into your head about what sex within a marriage was all about and it is still affecting you to this day or something else is going on. But you need to address this asap.
Now if there is more to your marriage than you are letting on (ie violence, verbal abuse, extramarital affairs, etc), then I may change my advice.
But based on what you have shared, you should seriously look into individual counselling now.
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RE: Knotty problem--divorce and possible rape - 11/5/2009 7:50:04 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 624
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
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I'm posting somewhat blind... Haven't read all the posts yet.
I don't know if it's technically rape or not but I do know what he did was horribly wrong. I don't care how "desperate for sex" he was, it doesn't excuse just taking it from an obviously less than willing person. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that if a woman is just laying there then she's just not really into it.  Sex is supposed to be about GIVING to your partner. It's about connecting on a very deep emotional and physical level. It's about becoming one. Your husband was only concerned about filling his own needs. He showed no regard for you. What your husband did was selfish. IMO he needs some serious therapy.
When my husband was refusing to have sex with me I didn't force myself on him like that. If we'd started and he was just laying there "like a dead fish" I would have stopped because it would have been wrong to continue.
I won't address why you weren't wanting to have sex with him because there can be many reasons for that. I think you realize though that it isn't ok for married people to just completely cut off the other person in this area unless there is a very valid reason.
As far as I know, a counselor isn't required to report this, unless you tell them it was rape and that you want to press charges.
< Message edited by Hislittleone -- 11/5/2009 7:56:16 PM >
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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