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Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 4:50:20 PM
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Alpaca
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" When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief, nearly two-thirds (64%) of people say they would continue to hold to what their religion teaches rather than accept the contrary scientific finding, according to the results of an October 2006 Time magazine poll.
Indeed, in a May 2007 Gallup poll, only 14% of those who say they do not believe in evolution cite lack of evidence as the main reason underpinning their views; more people cite their belief in Jesus (19%), God (16%) or religion generally (16%) as their reason for rejecting Darwin's theory." source
Pretty much says it all right there.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 6:08:38 PM
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lhtytlp
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Alpaca, welcome to the forum first of all!
Personally, I really don't believe in evaluation cause it's completely opposite to God's creation! Often time, we are carried away for what we see, what we hear, what we touched, etc, however, it's not what God see!
It's said in the Scripture in Psalm 51: 10-14, "Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness."
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The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 6:43:56 PM
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jmjphe
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So what I'm gathering here is that a 2006 Time Magazine poll and a 2007 Gallup poll showing the basic reasons as to why people reject darwin's theory, makes the theory itself spot on accurate and a clearly established fact.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 7:04:19 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jmjphe
So what I'm gathering here is that a 2006 Time Magazine poll and a 2007 Gallup poll showing the basic reasons as to why people reject darwin's theory, makes the theory itself spot on accurate and a clearly established fact.
not sure i understand you here but if darwinism was true, wouldnt the acceptance of the theory advance the human condition?
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 7:14:45 PM
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Alpaca
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jmjphe
So what I'm gathering here is that a 2006 Time Magazine poll and a 2007 Gallup poll showing the basic reasons as to why people reject darwin's theory, makes the theory itself spot on accurate and a clearly established fact.
In no way does either poll confirm the truth of evolution. They simply illustrate the prejudice with which many of the religious community approach science in general and evolution in particular.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 7:17:41 PM
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Alpaca
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lhtytlp
Alpaca, welcome to the forum first of all!
Thank you. I appreciate your welcome.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 8:58:28 PM
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navyblueret
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Alpaca, Shalom.
In a way, you may well be right saying man evolved, with one major problem, the missing letter, "d." 'Evolution' is actually the antithesis of God's word. In Genesis, man is made perfect, and sins the species into imperfection. Evolution indicates that everything came from the corrupt, and very slowly made progress toward the 'perfect,' yet to be attained. Thus, the two are incompatible, unless you put the 'd' back where it belongs, in the #1 letter slot, of the word, to bring all things in line, so they can agree, with Creation (Intelligent design), and Devolution (perfect fading into slime of corruption). Then we all can go to the bank with bio-degradable deposits, and fading intelligence.
That, just might be the anchor that holds Christians beliefs where they are, and belong, in the words of the Bible. Science seems to be unable to differentiate between forward, and backward. Of course, I do not place all science in this generic category. It just seems that too many scientists are so worried about doing an award winning 'paper,' they sometimes don't mention information that would throw their 'proofs' into the circular file.
Nuff-said
In Messiah, Welcome. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 10:06:47 PM
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jmjphe
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quote:
not sure i understand you here but if darwinism was true, wouldnt the acceptance of the theory advance the human condition?
I was being sarcastic 
quote:
In no way does either poll confirm the truth of evolution. They simply illustrate the prejudice with which many of the religious community approach science in general and evolution in particular.
Although I completely understand what your getting at, I would also take into account that the non-religious community maintains a prejudice as well, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 10:34:12 PM
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Alpaca
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quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Alpaca, Shalom.
Thank you.
quote:
In a way, you may well be right saying man evolved, with one major problem, the missing letter, "d." 'Evolution' is actually the antithesis of God's word. In Genesis, man is made perfect, and sins the species into imperfection. Evolution indicates that everything came from the corrupt, and very slowly made progress toward the 'perfect,' yet to be attained.
Gotta say, I haven't heard that one before. Is this a conclusion you've come to on your own?
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Thus, the two are incompatible, unless you put the 'd' back where it belongs, in the #1 letter slot, of the word, to bring all things in line, so they can agree, with Creation (Intelligent design), and Devolution (perfect fading into slime of corruption). Then we all can go to the bank with bio-degradable deposits, and fading intelligence.
Errr, okaaay.
quote:
That, just might be the anchor that holds Christians beliefs where they are, and belong, in the words of the Bible. Science seems to be unable to differentiate between forward, and backward. Of course, I do not place all science in this generic category. It just seems that too many scientists are so worried about doing an award winning 'paper,' they sometimes don't mention information that would throw their 'proofs' into the circular file. Believe me--or not--but science IS competitive, and any information out there that would throw another scientist's "proofs" into disaray would hit the streets before the ink was dry. Science is forever working on the findings of others, and if those findings prove to be false or even faulty they're readily exposed as such.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 10:58:11 PM
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navyblueret
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Alpaca, Shalom.
Well, look at the logicality of the two thought patterns. Darwin's 'science' decided that everything cam from the goo, through the zoo, to you (and me, even though Darwin never met me). God's word on His 'Science' shows that everything started out perfect, in it's own kind, and would have continued that way, except for a 'Sin' causing a denigrating of that perfection. So, Darwin: evolution, getting better toward perfection.
Then, we have God: Perfection, getting worse, or actually 'devolution.'
On the premise that Perfection equals top of the line, Darwinism is attempting to show how the goo is becoming you, and God is watching his perfect 'you' become goo. The two attitudes can pass in the night, but never travel the same direction, until one or the other changes direction. God will not, and can not, therefore Darwin (a product of God) must, by putting the letter for 'just barely passing,' the "d" back in front of the evolution, and get it started the direction it need go, parallel, in the same direction and with God, and then, science can look back, and see the perfection of God's Science, and we can actually obtain greatest knowledge, in understanding, and Science. It all becomes very circular, and my fingers are getting dizzy, so I've said enough.
Oh, I do not know if anyone, has ever espoused what I offered. I can only presume they have, since more people than just this one, graduated from the eighth grade, no matter how long it took me. And with that, I will post this, and then read this, and see if I can understand what I just said. 
In Messiah. Arley Full of His Love, and Spirit, singing my Praise to Him, my God.
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 11:22:31 PM
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Alpaca
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quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
So, Darwin: evolution, getting better toward perfection.
Not at all. Evolution is only a matter of adaptation to current circumstances. Absolutely no sense of ultimate perfection was ever declared or even implied. It's all an ongoing struggle. Sometimes struggling more and sometimes less. And if you want to believe in god's way---that life is "getting worse, or actually 'devolution'"---then maybe you can look at the evolutionary struggle as nature's way of adapting to that worsening situation.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 11:28:22 PM
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lhtytlp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
On the premise that Perfection equals top of the line, Darwinism is attempting to show how the goo is becoming you, and God is watching his perfect 'you' become goo. The two attitudes can pass in the night, but never travel the same direction, until one or the other changes direction. God will not, and can not, therefore Darwin (a product of God) must, by putting the letter for 'just barely passing,' the "d" back in front of the evolution, and get it started the direction it need go, parallel, in the same direction and with God, and then, science can look back, and see the perfection of God's Science, and we can actually obtain greatest knowledge, in understanding, and Science. It all becomes very circular, and my fingers are getting dizzy, so I've said enough.
I got my finger up with you, Chief Arley!  
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/28/2009 11:31:30 PM
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navyblueret
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Alpaca, Shalom.
Nice try, but no thank you. With my Faith, when I need change, I will receive it as a blessing not just adapting to the gooey situation I am in for another gooey situation with less muck and such.
I have shared my thoughts, which is all I intend. You can believe God's truth, or not, the 'choice' He gave us all, is still yours to make. Should I die, and return to the 'goo,' I really have not lost a thing, but when I 'graduate,' to Eternal Bliss, because of my faith, I will be a happy camper, for a very very long time. I fear that those who thought they knew more than my God knows, will find out what it is like to be the BBQ'ee rather than the BBQ'er.
Have a great eternity.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 1:40:08 AM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Alpaca
" When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief, nearly two-thirds (64%) of people say they would continue to hold to what their religion teaches rather than accept the contrary scientific finding, according to the results of an October 2006 Time magazine poll.
Indeed, in a May 2007 Gallup poll, only 14% of those who say they do not believe in evolution cite lack of evidence as the main reason underpinning their views; more people cite their belief in Jesus (19%), God (16%) or religion generally (16%) as their reason for rejecting Darwin's theory." source
Pretty much says it all right there.
It really boils down to this: do you trust science, or do you trust God's Word?
Would you rather believe science when it tells you that man can not come back to life after death, or do you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins and 3 days later conquered death?
Would you rather believe science when it tells you there's no such thing as demon possession, or would you rather believe Jesus when He tells you that He cast out devils?
Would you rather believe science when it tells you that it is impossible for man to walk on water, or would you rather believe Scriptures when it tells you Peter and Christ both floated on the top of the water?
Would you rather believe a Godless man who tells you you evolved from a bunch of smelly, stupid, vine-swinging animals, or would you rather believe Scripture when it tells you you are created after your own kind, starting with Adam and Eve?
Would you rather believe secular humanists when they tell you the world is zillions and zillions of years old, or would you rather believe God when He tells you that He spent 6 short days?
Idk, but what would YOU rather believe???
(edited for spelling)
< Message edited by evry1needsgod -- 8/29/2009 2:26:45 AM >
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 2:59:56 AM
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Alpaca
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alpaca
" When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief, nearly two-thirds (64%) of people say they would continue to hold to what their religion teaches rather than accept the contrary scientific finding, according to the results of an October 2006 Time magazine poll.
Indeed, in a May 2007 Gallup poll, only 14% of those who say they do not believe in evolution cite lack of evidence as the main reason underpinning their views; more people cite their belief in Jesus (19%), God (16%) or religion generally (16%) as their reason for rejecting Darwin's theory." source
Pretty much says it all right there.
It really boils down to this: do you trust science, or do you trust God's Word?
For the Time magazine poll I disagree. I see it as coming down to putting one part the mind on hold while letting the other part have full rule. As the article reads, the 64% referred to believe the evidence---whatever it may be---does "disprove a particular religious belief." However, this acceptance of the evidence is simply set aside, a matter of some kind of mental gymnastics, in favor of another accepted piece of evidence, the one that created the belief in the first place. They trust both, but because trusting one means the abandonment of the other, they choose one. Why that particular one and not the other? In the case of the believer I think it boils down too a matter of personal emotional/mental comfort.
In the Gallup poll it appears the majority (51%) simply have no concern as to what under girds evolution. They reject "Darwin's theory" not because they disagree with it, but because they feel there is simply nothing that could ever convince them that their belief in Jesus, god, or religion could be wrong. No such thing as even considering what science has to say. By it's very nature of being in opposition to what they believe automatically makes it wrong. And I believe that most of the 14% who don't find the evidence for evolution compelling have pretty much the same mind set.
Moreover, your approach in your answer, using "would you rather" almost a dozen times, speaks not to any kind of critical assessment of the issue, but an appeal to the emotional component of believing in either. "What would make you feel more snug and secure in believing?" However, that's not what the facts of the world are based on: emotional appeal. And this goes for both camps. If you feel the facts point to Jesus, god, and religion, fine. But don't pretend that that any comfort you derive in preferring the snug and secure imparts any kind of validity--the same sort of validity that evolution depends on--onto your belief.
So, as to your question, I can only say that I while I may prefer the snug and secure, I can't abide fooling myself to do so. The facts as I see as them, uncomfortable as they may be, are still the facts as I see them, and I refuse to ignore them and compromise my intellect and self respect. Not saying people shouldn't--they should do whatever gets them through life the easiest--but I can't.
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 1:46:52 PM
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GHitch
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quote:
When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief... The only religious beliefs scientists could ever disprove is that which is an object of scientific examination. Of course this includes many of the beliefs of the cult of Darwinism - which is mostly faith based.
Science never can disprove God or creation.
Strangely enough, this kind of question is always posed by those who also claim that "science can't prove anything"!!
A clear duplicity going on there don't ya think?
Food for thought, it is impossible to disprove that which is true.
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"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 1:51:04 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Alpaca
quote:
I see it as coming down to putting one part the mind on hold while letting the other part have full rule.
There's no such thing as putting your mind on hold with my Lord and Savior!
quote:
They trust both, but because trusting one means the abandonment of the other, they choose one. Why that particular one and not the other? In the case of the believer I think it boils down too a matter of personal emotional/mental comfort.
Not at all! It boils down to faith in the only source of truth in this world--Lord God. Not everything in the world is emotional/mental comfort.
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In the Gallup poll it appears the majority (51%) simply have no concern as to what under girds evolution. They reject "Darwin's theory" not because they disagree with it, but because they feel there is simply nothing that could ever convince them that their belief in Jesus, god, or religion could be wrong.
Well, their "ignorance" of Darwin's theory has repaid them immensely, for neither Darwin or any man can mix science with the actions of a Divine Being. The results are miracles, published in God's Holy Bible, of which science can not explain and finds itself slapped in its face. Science in a measurement/study of the objective, observable universe. As such, it deceptively assumes the right to be called "fact" when indeed it is more along the lines of "speculation". When the God of the universe becomes involved in His own creation, science is no longer the source of truth. God's Word is that source, and therein lies the facts!
quote:
Moreover, your approach in your answer, using "would you rather" almost a dozen times, speaks not to any kind of critical assessment of the issue, but an appeal to the emotional component of believing in either.
Through your own posts, I have noticed a trend. It seems as though you realize the crutch of man's emotions, and as a result, look to science as your one true objective foundation upon which to form your own emotions; to "counterbalance", or "put in check" man's emotional drive. You look to religion, however, and see a great big subjective thought process by all those involved, and you fortify this belief by showing how Christians refuse to place their trust in, what you believe to be, the glorious source of truth on earth--science. Herein is your problem, my friend.
My use of the phrase "would you rather" has nothing to do with emotion whatsoever. It has everything to do with what you choose to place your trust in! I know you'd like to make everything out to be emotional (that was the entire point of your OP, as I have observed), but sometimes we are forced to make a decision, and that decision is based solely on what we know is right! My decision to believe what God says, instead of a disturbed individual on an island observing mouths of birds, has nothing to do with emotion, but everything to do with my search for absolute truth! Sometimes believing in something (God) is much greater than the mere realm of emotion.
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"What would make you feel more snug and secure in believing?"
Again, you read too much into my post. I could honestly care less (and I don't mean this in a disrespectful manner) how snug and secure you feel. Really the only point of my post was to show you how faulty science is when the Divine is involved.
quote:
So, as to your question, I can only say that I while I may prefer the snug and secure, I can't abide fooling myself to do so.
Neither can I! Which is precisely why I humbly submit myself to the only source of truth on this earth--God's Word.
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The facts as I see as them, uncomfortable as they may be, are still the facts as I see them, and I refuse to ignore them and compromise my intellect and self respect.
If you truly care about your self-esteem, you would reconsider that facts by which you live your daily life. Seems like all this talk about emotionally driven beliefs has come back to bite you, or you would not have mentioned the inability for you to deny your scientific intellect and self respect (emotion!).
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they should do whatever gets them through life the easiest
Yes, this is exactly what every vengeful murder declares the moment before they kill someone.
This is precisely what every child molester declares when asked why he/she did what they did.
This is what is told by those who steal children because they are not physically capable of having their own child and can not afford to adopt.
No, I submit to you that they ought to abide by the only source of absolute truth--God--easy or not!
In Christ,
ZG
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"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 3:13:28 PM
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Alpaca
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
When asked what they would do if scientists were to disprove a particular religious belief... Science never can disprove God or creation.
Strangely enough, this kind of question is always posed by those who also claim that "science can't prove anything"!!
A clear duplicity going on there don't ya think?
Are you sure you worded that right? Because science not being able to prove anything is just a generalization of the more particular, "Science never can disprove God or creation. "
quote:
Food for thought, it is impossible to disprove that which is true.
I'd certainly say so.
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Half The People Have An IQ Below Average
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 3:34:58 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
It really boils down to this: do you trust science, or do you trust God's Word?
others have said it, but i'll say it, too. why must there be a choice?
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watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 3:39:58 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
It really boils down to this: do you trust science, or do you trust God's Word?
others have said it, but i'll say it, too. why must there be a choice?
What exactly do you mean? Do you mean to say that science and God's Word are completely independent of each other, one having no influence on the other?
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"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 3:43:37 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Food for thought, it is impossible to disprove that which is true.
that depends on how you define disprove. let's say you have cancer. but i tell you that you really have a demon possession. if i'm persuasive, i might come up with a crazy test that will disprove that you have a tumor.
another example i thought of it obama. he was born in hawaii, but many still think they have evidence disproving this fact.
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watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 3:45:30 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
What exactly do you mean? Do you mean to say that science and God's Word are completely independent of each other, one having no influence on the other?
that's what she is saying. her post was an appeal to the belief that reality is a threat to faith, so we should never choose reality for fear of losing faith.
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watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 3:50:47 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
My use of the phrase "would you rather" has nothing to do with emotion whatsoever. It has everything to do with what you choose to place your trust in! I know you'd like to make everything out to be emotional (that was the entire point of your OP, as I have observed), but sometimes we are forced to make a decision, and that decision is based solely on what we know is right!
there is a difference between making a decision and "would you rather." this question appeals to the irrational, like the preference of chocolate ice cream over vanilla.
let's say a car is speeding towards me. "i would rather" that the car not be there. but i can decide to move out of the way. what i would rather be true cannot become true no matter how much i want it to be so.
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watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: Please stop my corrupting my belief with the facts - 8/29/2009 4:00:20 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
What exactly do you mean? Do you mean to say that science and God's Word are completely independent of each other, one having no influence on the other?
that's what she is saying. her post was an appeal to the belief that reality is a threat to faith, so we should never choose reality for fear of losing faith.
And the point of my post was to show how reality can only be found in God's Word. Science, as real as we may hope it to be, can not explain the supernatural. If God decided that Peter could walk on water, then every scientific law and rationale that tells us it is impossible turns out to be a farce.
quote:
there is a difference between making a decision and "would you rather." this question appeals to the irrational, like the preference of chocolate ice cream over vanilla.
Ok, I'll give you that. Then would she rather place her trust in the shaky subjective truths of science, or in the rock-solid, immovable, undisturbed, trustworthy, firm foundation of God and His Word?
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"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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