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Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 7:43:59 PM
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slimon11
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As a new Christian, I noticed that we are quick to pick apart different denominations or churches.
My thoughts are no leader or church is perfect; we are all still human…We are quick to dismiss a denomination or teacher for just about any mistake, but, when I tend to have this black and white sort of attitude towards sin in my life or worldly things, I am told I am being too legalistic.
If being saved by grace is all that matters; then why are we so picky when it comes to denominations or teachers that essentially believe Jesus died for our sins and that he is our only ticket to heaven but, have some other flaws here or there?
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 8:10:37 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
If being saved by grace is all that matters; then why are we so picky when it comes to denominations or teachers that essentially believe Jesus died for our sins and that he is our only ticket to heaven but, have some other flaws here or there?
What do you mean by "flaws"? A difference in church goevrnment? Differening views on the end times? Or, views that distort the essentials of the faith as expressed in the historic creeds and confessions?
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 8:57:09 PM
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earthless
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Yes, I would like to know the definitions for the terms slimon11 is using.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 9:09:56 PM
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tony.nz
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You have asked a very good question, and I do not understand why others have problems with the definition of terms that you are using. They seem straightforward to me.
And, I agree that we do have to be very careful about what we say of people in regard to minor doctrinal differences, and even in regard to moral or character flaws that we see in other people. I think sometimes in these forums we go too far, become too personal, and this can be damaging to the unity of the Spirit.
As I have said elsewhere, the fact that a person says they are a Christian, does not necessarily make it so. On the other hand, the fact that a person has some flaws, does not mean that they are not. Thank God for that, I have enough of my own. And early in my Christian walk, as you have, I realised that if I worried too much about the flaws I saw in other people, I would soon forget that it is Christ that I am following.
However, we also need to be very careful, because if you read the scriptures, you will see that God says much about false prophets and false teachers. Matthew 7:15, 24:11, 24:24, Mark13:22, 2 Peter 2:1, and 1 John 4:1, are examples. And in regard to the latter days, 1 Timothy 4 (KJV)
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
We have much to be careful of, because this prophecy has been fulfilled in these days, and there are many speaking contrary things, all claiming to be delivering a message from God. However, God does not contradict himself, or speak lies. I have had people in my home, peddling a salvation message contrary to the Word, and saying "why don't you pray and ask God to show you whether our book is true?". Very seductive! But we are commanded to test the Spirits!
1 John 4 (KJV)
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
So how do we recognise a false prophet or a false teacher? Clearly, a prophet is false if what they speak does not come to pass. There is a much more important test than this however. Does the message line up with the Scripture, the Word of God? Deut 13 tells us that even if a prophets words come to pass, or they show a sign or wonder, they must not turn us away after other Gods.
Psalm 119:105 says that God's word is "a lamp to my feet, a light to my path". 2 Timothy3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
You may be asking, "Yes, but should we not be led by the Spirit". Yes, the children of God are led by the Spirit of God. But, if the Spirit does not speak according to the Word, it is not the Holy Spirit you are listening too!
I hope that this goes some way to answering your question.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 9:12:42 PM
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csl7037
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"As a new Christian", I doubt he can differentiate the semantics or clarify the theological issues in question - having been a Christian about 26 years, I can barely keep up around here sometimes! I'm sure what he's looking at is why we preach grace and living by grace in our personal lives but seemingly come down so hard when there are doctrinal differences.
The thing to understand, though, is that the church seems to be in a weird place right now. Maybe it's nothing new and I really doubt it is. But there's a fascinating shift happening that is pulling in a lot of really extra-Biblical stuff into so many churches. Our society at large is becoming so enamoured with the metaphysical and supernatural. And churchgoers (Christian and otherwise) are bringing this same fascination, unfortunately without an ounce of discernment, into the Church.
It's important that we be discerning and test the spirits - no matter the source. As a new Christian, I encourage you to pray for and seek discernment and guidance in all that you will see and learn in the next few years, and throughout your life, to be able to recognize what is of God and what really is not. A lot of that also just comes with reading and understanding God's Word - and not letting anyone distract you from His Word.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 9:39:28 PM
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Qtman
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I have visited churches where other denominations were bad mouthed. Even from the pulpit. Needless to say I did not go back. If more people would spend more time talking about the saving grace of Jesus instead of each other this world would be a dfiierent place.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 9:55:56 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
As a new Christian, I noticed that we are quick to pick apart different denominations or churches.
My thoughts are no leader or church is perfect; we are all still human…We are quick to dismiss a denomination or teacher for just about any mistake, but, when I tend to have this black and white sort of attitude towards sin in my life or worldly things, I am told I am being too legalistic.
If being saved by grace is all that matters; then why are we so picky when it comes to denominations or teachers that essentially believe Jesus died for our sins and that he is our only ticket to heaven but, have some other flaws here or there?
drfuss: You ask a very good question. I agree that too much is made of the differences in beliefs and not enough emphasis on the basic same beliefs.
I have found that believers tend to emphasize, exaggerate and sometimes misrepresent the beliefs of others to make it easier to defend their own belief. That is not to say that they are being dishonest. Over the years in a particular belief system, wrong information about others beliefs has evolved, been taught and accepted. I could give you examples, but the Moderator would probably either delete or transfer my post to another thread.
The important belief is to trust Christ as your Savior and Lord, and to be trusting in Him when you die to get to heaven. Practically all denominations believe that. However, there are some differences in the second and third level beliefs, but many times these differences are only a play on words for practical purposes.
I have studied the beliefs of many denominations and have not found one that I completely agree with in all their second and third teer beliefs. However, these small differences are not important.
On the other hand, one of the purposes of these boards is to debate these second and third level beliefs, so you can expect these type of debates.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/12/2008 9:58:14 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I have visited churches where other denominations were bad mouthed. Even from the pulpit. Needless to say I did not go back. If more people would spend more time talking about the saving grace of Jesus instead of each other this world would be a dfiierent place.
This is what I am trying to find out from the OP. Very little bad mouthing of Christian denominations goes on here on these boards, and thankfully so.
What is seen a lot here, and thankfully so, are Christians who test the teachings of all in light of Scripture. And guess what happens then? Those that are false teachers, false prophets, merchandisers of men do indeed get called out and exposed for all to see.
I ask if the latter is what the OP takes issue with/is asking about?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 1:57:32 AM
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slimon11
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Hello, Hope you are all having a good night. I guess when I say “flaws” I mean all of it...
Character flaws in our teachers, maybe a teacher really loves and believes in Jesus, the Messiah, but, has some baggage...Extravagant lifestyles come to mind. How can we judge someone for making a ton of money off of the sale Christian books,etc? Some of these books change peoples' lives. David and Solomon lived pretty extravagant lifestyles, had tons of character flaws yet, truly loved God and wrote some of the best books in the Bible. Are we to discount their writings because they were rich and obviously imperfect?
As far as denominations, the Catholic Church and the Assembly of God Church come to mind. As, I attend a non-denominational church now and, have heard a ton of bad mouthing about the 2 churches. I have lined up what I know of the bible with some things I know to be true of these churches and I see they are not without flaws but, real and amazing Christians come from and teach in both churches!
I attended both churches for several years growing up and I believe that if it were not for the love of Jesus expressed to me through Catholic and Assembly of God members that I would not know God today. Seeds were planted during those years, spiritual lessons taught to me that I would not understand until years later, yes, even prophecy spoken over my life by a leader in one of those churches. They know and believe in Jesus, the Messiah and teach that above all else. Isn’t that all that really matters?
As one of the posters pointed out, this forum is a place to debate the second and third level beliefs. I understand that it is good to talk about these things but, often times, we tend to be too picky because of what church someone associates with, or, because of a biblical mistake they made in public, dismissing people that have a real heart and know Jesus
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 8:30:07 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
.....because of a biblical mistake they made in public, dismissing people that have a real heart and know Jesus
Who would that be? Can you give a single example of that?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 10:40:43 AM
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gaylel1
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As Christians, we are to test things that are out of context within God's word. If calling out certian teachers and demonations are bad mouthing, I'm sorry and my fellow believers are if people take offense because people need to be called out because they are distorting the word of God. And the people get easily offended by this has not been taught sound docterine, instead they go off going for movements that are not bibical or the next so-called move of God.
Lakeland is one example.
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In Loving memory...
Christopher "Topher" Laurie
Called home to glory on July 24, 2008
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 11:11:19 AM
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StephK
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I remember back when the WOF movement was taking root that many pastors did sound the alarm of their bad theology. Instead of people testing the spirits and all teaching in light of the Word those who sounded the alarm were blasted as heresy hunters. The cancer of the WOF movement has done great damage to the Church. The problem today is that too many in the Church are biblically illiterate spiritual babies. Since the biblical literacy is so low too many people are buying every wind of doctrine that comes their way as truth when it is really straight from the pit of hell.
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 12:10:06 PM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
If being saved by grace is all that matters; then why are we so picky when it comes to denominations or teachers that essentially believe Jesus died for our sins and that he is our only ticket to heaven but, have some other flaws here or there?
Hello, slimon11! Nice title, provocative...you've got style!
Is there any particular teacher with a thread on them that you think didn't get treated fairly in some way? Because differences in belief and denomination will exist as long as we see in part and know in part (1 Corinthians 13:12).
Consider that to the unchurched world nearly everyone on these boards would be seen as having similar beliefs and values. We appear more similar than dissimilar, despite the emotional drama displayed in debates of variations of doctrines within the entire church.
Differences about God and the Bible are not the same as differences which lead away from God and the Bible. However we don't have verses telling us "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, and blessed are the referees for they will not take sides". If some guy is throwing rocks at Christians it's easy to see he's not with Christ. Matthew 7:15 describes something that's more difficult than that to see.
quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
Extravagant lifestyles come to mind. How can we judge someone for making a ton of money off of the sale Christian books,etc? Some of these books change peoples' lives. David and Solomon lived pretty extravagant lifestyles, had tons of character flaws yet, truly loved God and wrote some of the best books in the Bible. Are we to discount their writings because they were rich and obviously imperfect?
If you are referring to Word of Faith folks, there is a lot more to it than that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
As far as denominations, the Catholic Church and the Assembly of God Church come to mind. As, I attend a non-denominational church now and, have heard a ton of bad mouthing about the 2 churches.
Not surprising to hear. It's okay to say that the non-denom is wrong if they have spoken falsely about someone else. You would not be the one bringing division to this circumstance. If anyone, me, you, them, if anyone is mistaken in a matter then we should all want to know this about ourselves but certainly not everyone is going to admit it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
I understand that it is good to talk about these things but, often times, we tend to be too picky because of what church someone associates with, or, because of a biblical mistake they made in public, dismissing people that have a real heart and know Jesus
Since you said the question is for vigilant "Church" watchers, this is really selling some good folks short. When you typed "picky" did you imply "petty"? If you have a concern about someone in particular please join us in the thread for that person. Thanks and I hope you have a good day.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 1:27:29 PM
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slimon11
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Good morning, thank you all for posting, each post has tremendously blessed me. I didn’t know what I was getting myself into when I started the thread. This thread has given me answers to questions I didn’t even know I had and, has sparked many more thoughts and questions in my head.
I know some of you are called above others to be our “community watch dogs,” (as I see it). I am by no means trying to discredit anyone’s God given calling or say that their research is petty; I know there are people that listen to teachings but, never read the bible themselves. I guess, on this forum and in bible studies I attend, I see a lot of focus on what is dissimilar in churches rather than similar, what is bad rather than what is good and, that is what I find confusing.
I mean if a church is preaching that Jesus is the Messiah, our Savior, our Redeemer, God’s only son that He sacrificed out of His love for us then, shouldn’t we rejoice? Especially in a society where often times we are taught that the above message is not true. As a new Christian, I only view the above message as positive; no matter what garbage is attached to it. As we grow, we will become better and better at sifting through that garbage.
I will comment on some of the other threads in this section later today and, I will come back to this one too, I have some more questions for you all. Thanks again.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 2:09:49 PM
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lw9
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Welcome to the forum, slimon11!
quote:
slimon11: I mean if a church is preaching that Jesus is the Messiah, our Savior, our Redeemer, God’s only son that He sacrificed out of His love for us then, shouldn’t we rejoice?
Not necessarily because many preach and teach in the name of Jesus, but the Jesus they are proclaiming is actually a false god. This subtle deception can be hard to detect without some serious investigation. For instance, I can proclaim Jesus is Lord, Messiah, and redeemer, but then when prodded further I also proclaim that Jesus was born on Mars and is an alien. Oops... that's not the Jesus of the Holy Bible. The Jesus being proclaimed of MUST be defined and tested through scripture. Here's a few real life examples:
Creflo Dollar proclaims Jesus as Lord, Son of God, and savior in his faith statement. Sounds good so far. What you won't see until you dig deeper into his teachings is that his 'Jesus' did not come as God in the flesh. According to Dollar, Jesus came as a man who grew into Godhood, and we can do the same to become 'gods' ourselves. So no matter how many times Dollar preaches his version of 'Jesus' as Lord and savior, he's really preaching a false god and a false path, and leading thousands into deception.
Kenneth Copeland also preaches Jesus as Lord, Son of God, and savior. Again... sounds good so far. Dig further into his teachings and you will find that his 'Jesus' did not atone for sin on the cross but instead became spiritually dead and sinful, was dragged into hell and spiritually reborn there. That's not the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. It's a lie, a deception, and a denial of the true Jesus Christ, and anyone following this path will also find themselves denying the true Christ.
These are not minor theological differences or opinions that can be overlooked but rather major false teachings that can literally lead people into destruction. For many of us, our goal is simply to tell the truth about these things and warn people of the real and deadly dangers of the various false teachers and false churches that are out there. We live in a time where false teachers, false prophets, false signs and wonders are literally springing up every day and in every place. We're not creating the problem... we're just pointing it out.
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 2:37:25 PM
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colliefan
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One thing that is beautiful about the bible is that it doesn't gloss over the failings of its heros. It presents them as flesh and blood individuals who did great things for God, but also failed Him greatly.
False and apostate teachers use the bible, but they twist it to meet their agenda. Too often their agenda is to "fleece the flock" so they can live in opulance.
The truth is every church member needs to be vigilant for false teaching and examine what they hear against the Word of God. The problem is a great deal of the church, for the most part, wants converts to remain on the milk stage and doesn't want them to grow to the meat stage of the Christian life.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 5:24:09 PM
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slimon11
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Hi guys, I'm back with more questions.
How can you tell the difference between false teachings from a real teacher and false teachings from false teacher?
How do you handle it when a leader you personally know and trust to be the real deal messes up? Ingore it, tell them, wait and hope the right person points out their mistake, leave the church?
For those of you who stated it is a strange time for the church, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the matter.
Thank you!
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 6:00:54 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2472
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
How do you handle it when a leader you personally know and trust to be the real deal messes up? Ingore it, tell them, wait and hope the right person points out their mistake, leave the church?
Define "messes up"; attributes the words of John 3:16 to another passage. Or, says that Christ's death on the cross was unsufficent payment for our sins? Says something is contrary to basic doctrine.
If this is the case go to him privately, and ask him to clarify matters for you. If thimgs are still unclear, go to church leadership. If things are clearly against God's word, it's time to find another church.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 9:03:58 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 912
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quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
For those of you who stated it is a strange time for the church, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the matter.
"Jesus also overcame every trick and temptation that Satan could throw His way. Even though He never claimed to be God, Jesus succeeded in living a life of sinless perfection.41 When all was said and done, Jesus passed the test that the first Adam had failed."
OK! I've heard things here and there for a while but never really looked into it much . . . when did Kenneth Copeland start talking such nonsense?!?! I guess if you've not been around as long as I have, and weren't raised in the kind of churches I was, you're thinking "he's always been like that" - but he hasn't....neither has Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, etc. I know I was just a kid/teenager when I last really listened to any of those guys. But I think even then, even I would've said "whoa, rewind" if I'd heard something like that! Or any of this nonsense. I had heard about this book but now I've got to read it. Eye opener just in chapter 1.
There's definitely been a paradigm shift. My pastor said this morning that we live in a world that doesn't believe in the supernatural - I totally disagree. I think maybe it's a generational thing (and maybe I wasn't the audience that comment was for). Anyone under 40 (at least) surely must see that our society has become spirituality-obsessed. What was once "New Age" is now mainstream - from Oprah to the pulpit...it's everywhere. And that's why Todd Bentley and the like are getting away with the nonsense they are. We've got to wake up or we're in trouble. Can you say APOSTACY?!?!
...and I can't resist but post a continuation of that chapter from Hank Hanegraaff's "Christianity in Crisis" - nothing short of mind boggling!
"But that's not all. Because Jesus was re-created from a satanic being to an incarnation of God, you too can become an incarnation--as much an incarnation as Jesus Christ of Nazareth!54 And, as an incarnation of God, you can have unlimited health and unlimited wealth--a palace like the Taj Mahal with a Rolls Royce in your driveway.55 You are a little messiah running around on earth!56
"All it takes is to recognize your own divinity. You too can harness the force of faith. Never again will you have to pray, "Thy will be done."57 Rather, your Word is God's command.58 By using your tongue to release the force of faith, you can speak whatsoever you desire into existence.59 Then you can live happily ever after on this planet of prosperity.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/13/2008 10:48:27 PM
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earthless
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Slimon - can you please answer my question?
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/15/2008 10:41:33 PM
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slimon11
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Hi Earthless, to answer your question, the teacher I follow is Beth Moore. I've already read the thread on her and then some. I was just asking questions in general, as this is an issue I keep thinking about and deal with while talking to my fellow Christians in small discussion groups, bible studies etc. I see you posted on a thread I started a while back on this topic.
http://forums.kkla.com/Not_throwing_the_babe_out_with_the_bath_water%25/m_3548798/mpage_1/tm.htm#1
Rereading it, I really like what you had to say on post #8.
Did you or anyone else see my question:
How can you tell the difference between false teachings from a real teacher and false teachings from false teacher?
Thank you all for your replies.
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RE: Question for our vigilant “Church” watchers. - 7/16/2008 8:02:14 AM
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