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To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 9:14:50 AM
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AslansChild
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I have a question. I married a woman from a country where the childs middle name is the mother's miden name and when they marry they usually switch the middle name to their maiden name which I did not have a problem with. Her sister however hyphenated her maiden name to her husbands last name. What is the reason for the hyphen and is this a proper thing to do as a Christian wife?
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 9:53:43 AM
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AslansChild
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The other issue is she basically runs the house. We (my wife and I) are a few years older and have seen the decisions made mostly by the wife. To the extent that she has sent her husband out to work while she spends the money. I have no problem with women who are established in the business community wanting to retain their professional ID after getting married by keeping their maiden name. I just found it interesting that my SIL who is a SAHM with no established credentials felt the need to make a decision that is more of a professional choice. As you can tell I am quite opiniated in this once situation. In my opinion this woman is very controlling and coniving. You can also see her "authority over the husband" in the way the children are being raised. I guess as a man what I see is from the start she decided that her individual identity was more important than coming together with her husband and as a result he looks to be acquiescing to her leadership.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 10:02:33 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AslansChild
The other issue is she basically runs the house.
In my opinion this woman is very controlling and coniving. You can also see her "authority over the husband" in the way the children are being raised.
I guess as a man what I see is from the start she decided that her individual identity was more important than coming together with her husband and as a result he looks to be acquiescing to her leadership.
Your first two points are separate from a woman choosing to keep her name, but I understand what you are saying. I don't think her husband letting her lead is a result of her choosing to keep her name, rather an overall attitude on the part of both parties.
I know a man who took his wife's name, so that her family name would not die out. He was still a "real man" who provided for and loved his wife and children.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 10:11:33 AM
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manda59
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Having a double-barrelled surname is nothing new, it's been around for centuries.
When we got married, I even considered it as I didn't want to lose my former family name, didn't want it to die out (it's a more unusual surname, compared to my husband's name which is White).
Wiki is good on this subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-barrelled_name
In the UK, it's especially common in the nobility/upper-class families - and they sometimes even have triple-barrelled surnames!
In my experience it's mostly just a tradition that some people like to carry on, and does not necessarily have anything to do with who is head of the house/wears the trousers.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 11:46:31 AM
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42servehymn
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I took my husband's last name and was proud to do it but it does not bother me if other people make a different decision. It sounds like you are a little too worried about how your brother handles his marriage. If it is working for them it is not your business even if it wouldn't work for you. Maybe you need a hobby?
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 12:18:37 PM
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bolt.
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quote:
what I see is from the start she decided that her individual identity was more important than coming together with
her husband and as a result he looks to be acquiescing to her leadership.
It is not a sin for a husband to recognize his wife's natural leadership ability and honour it in their marriage. If she leads poorly or behaves sinfully, that's another matter.
It is not a sin for a genuine partnership to be represented by the presence of both names. That's a perfectly sensible way to represent 'coming together'. Coming together involves the presence of two individual identities, and the idea that to come together requires one person's identity to be discarded is offensive and absurd. No marriage discards either person's personal identity unless it is severely dysfunctional.
If your brother and sister in law are not sinning, their family structure and choices are well outside of your area of concern.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 12:57:19 PM
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m4maggie
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I hyphenated my married name to my maiden name, but primarily for "aesthetic" reasons. Meaning, my given name and my married last name aren't that great a match. My maiden name works as a buffer of sorts, so it doesn't sound so silly. My hubby isn't too thrilled about that mind you, but I think he understands why I chose to hyphenate. But on the bright side, at least our kids have the family name.
< Message edited by m4maggie -- 10/26/2009 1:08:22 PM >
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 1:07:47 PM
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AslansChild
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quote:
If it is working for them it is not your business even if it wouldn't work for you. Maybe you need a hobby?
OUCH!!!!! I guess the stigma no lnoger exists. I will now leave with my tail between my legs....
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 2:38:06 PM
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hnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AslansChild
The other issue is she basically runs the house. We (my wife and I) are a few years older and have seen the decisions made mostly by the wife. To the extent that she has sent her husband out to work while she spends the money. I have no problem with women who are established in the business community wanting to retain their professional ID after getting married by keeping their maiden name. I just found it interesting that my SIL who is a SAHM with no established credentials felt the need to make a decision that is more of a professional choice. As you can tell I am quite opiniated in this once situation. In my opinion this woman is very controlling and coniving. You can also see her "authority over the husband" in the way the children are being raised. I guess as a man what I see is from the start she decided that her individual identity was more important than coming together with her husband and as a result he looks to be acquiescing to her leadership.
Your post is confusing to me personally.
A hyphenated name doesn't mean her marriage doesn't come together. Names don't have that power. It certainly doesn't give someone 'authority over' either. Its okay that you don't agree with the decision, but I wouldn't jump to assumptions due to it.
I know of alot of families in which the women does the book keeping. I'm not sure what that has to do with authority either. Some people are more gifted, and at times they are still gifted in that area...but just plain would rather their partner do it.
Why would think that bookkeeping and last names gives anyone authority? I guess that is the part that confuses me personally. Neither of those items do so.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 2:53:49 PM
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AslansChild
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quote:
Why would think that bookkeeping and last names gives anyone authority? I guess that is the part that confuses me personally. Neither of those items do so.
Looks like I stirred up a hornets nest and maybe I should have started this in relationships. I'm not sure where the bookkeeping reference is coming from. I feel like I have to explain 10 years of history to make a more lucid point/question. From my vantage point to the relationship I have seen this marriage conform more to a single personality (the wifes) in the direction that is taken for all decisions. We have assisted them in many ways as the wife has made decisions that have financially impacted the family. From the beginning her pursuit of her husband was driven by him validating her and then her reshaping him into her image. She basically did what the marine corp couldn't, she broke him down and then built him back up as her servant. The reason for my question is in conversations with him he is looking for where he lost the ability to be a decision maker in his home. As an older person who has made my mistakes and recovered he has come to me as we both married into the same family. So maybe the question isn't "What is the reason for the hyphen and is this a proper thing to do as a Christian wife? " but can that decision set the tone for a dominat personality to control the marriage. Again, my post to this forum is based on his question to me and my doing a root cause analysis of the situation.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 3:09:48 PM
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bolt.
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quote:
he is looking for where he lost the ability to be a decision maker in his home.
He lost it when he decided that being a decision-maker didn't matter to him as much as the feeling of 'her happiness' (probably a very positive feeling in the first blush of relationship). After a while, it makes sense that if he acts like being a decision maker doesn't matter to him, there's no real impulse in her to worry about it, if he's giving her the message that he's not concerned either way. That's a mistake, but not malice -- and the cause lies with both of them doing fairly natural things.
By now it's a habit, and on bad days it's probably not about a positive feeling of her being happy, but more about keeping her from being unhappy. Crummy, but pretty commonplace.
To get back his status as a decision maker, he has to come to terms somehow with the core concept of his wife not always being as happy or at least content as he can make her. If that is his primary value in the relationship, then there's not much hope of him stepping outside the box he has put himself in.
(Note: it is his box -- he chooses it, she doesn't make him do it. Unless she is verbally or physically abusive when he acts assertive in an egalitarian way, then he has to take responsibility for the choice of limiting himself this way.)
If he can say, "Some decisions involve more that her happiness or preferences." Then he can make bold statements, make decisions, and take action. It is important that this be about a balance of the happiness of all people involved (for insignificant decisions) and about wisdom, faithfulness, and godliness (regarding significant decisions).
This is not about switching who is dominating who. No real man needs to dominate. It's about having a voice at the table as an equal, including the right to veto, and not being OK with a structure that involves a lesser-partner sort of dialogue.
PS - lots of people, male and female, make financial mistakes at some point.
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To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 3:18:34 PM
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pink..
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I thought about hyphenating my last name when I got married. However, my maiden name doesn't really go well with other names.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 3:53:24 PM
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moon_mouse
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AslansChild
So maybe the question isn't "What is the reason for the hyphen and is this a proper thing to do as a Christian wife? " but can that decision set the tone for a dominat personality to control the marriage.
No. If she took her husband's name, and all other things were kept status quo, the power balance in the relationship would be the same. That is determined by the couple's individual personalities and the actions they take, not the name they choose to go by. At best it could be a symptom of the underlying issue, if he didn't want her to hyphenate, and she pressured him into it.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 4:55:31 PM
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creationtalk
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I have not seen anywhere in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not hyphenate the last name."
I've known couples where both hyphenated their names when they got married.
I've known couples where both kept their pre-married names.
I've known couples where the wife hyphenated the names and the husband did not.
I've known couples where the wife took the name of the husband.
What I have not seen is any correlation with the choice of how the last name is handled after the marriage and the success or otherwise of the marriage.
If there are problems in the marriage, it is due to the PEOPLE not a name or name choice.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 5:25:02 PM
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hnt
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quote:
So maybe the question isn't "What is the reason for the hyphen and is this a proper thing to do as a Christian wife? " but can that decision set the tone for a dominat personality to control the marriage.
I suppose it can if a man is threatened by a hyphen. If he went along with the program, because he felt he had no input or his concerns were not valid to her? That seems like they both have issues within the relationship. If he felt railroaded like she would refuse to marry him? He needs to stop and think on that a bit.
If he just accepted the hyphen because it truly made no never mind to him? Such a small thing doesn't start a tumbling of a relationship. People at times use it as you said for business, and at times personal preference. I know my SIL uses her last name because after her? It goes on no longer. That seemed to be important to her, and it wasn't out of dominance. After her there will be an end to that blood line.
To me a last name can't be a sign of dominance period. I would men wouldn't feel that way over their last name being given to their wife as well.  I doubt most men do that of course. One person feeling they can dominate the other - no matter what the gender - isn't healthy for any relationship. Dominance is destructive no matter whom is reeling the power.
The book keeping comment? When you said he goes out and works, and she spends all the money ... I thought you were talking about handling the families finances. Book keeping is another word for it. Can men and women use money for a tool of dominance? Sure. I don't think its healthy for either gender to do that. I agree with bolt - anyone can make mistakes with finances.
I would ask you WHY 'he' thinks he can't make a decision in his own home? Has their been conversations about this? What was her response? Have they sought out help if this is a troubling area within the home?
If she is a SAHM chances are most of the rearing decisions (day to day junk) would fall on her, and I'm sure some of it is habit. I would hope that she can at least respect his opinion if he feels something is down right repelling to him. There are times in which you change the direction, and other times its not in the best interest to. I think we have all felt something wasn't right, and when we found out more about the behind the scenes reasons? It became more palatable. Does that make sense?
I hope they find resolution. I don't think a hyphen as the power to take over a relationship in the way you speak. I don't think it even starts there. Its starts with the dynamics between the people within the relationship.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 7:27:33 PM
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42servehymn
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I'm sorry if my response was too harsh. My husband and I have seen marriages where the woman rules over the man. In some marriages this works just fine for the husband (or seems to anyway). In one case a friend of my husbands has confided in my husband that he is not happy with how he is treated. In that particular marriage she kept her maiden name. We don't hang out with this couple very often anymore because we are uncomfortable with how poorly she treats him. I am just wondering if the husband you are talking about is unhappy? Has he asked for your advice or input?
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 8:50:46 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AslansChild
quote:
Why would think that bookkeeping and last names gives anyone authority? I guess that is the part that confuses me personally. Neither of those items do so.
Looks like I stirred up a hornets nest and maybe I should have started this in relationships. I'm not sure where the bookkeeping reference is coming from. I feel like I have to explain 10 years of history to make a more lucid point/question. From my vantage point to the relationship I have seen this marriage conform more to a single personality (the wifes) in the direction that is taken for all decisions. We have assisted them in many ways as the wife has made decisions that have financially impacted the family. From the beginning her pursuit of her husband was driven by him validating her and then her reshaping him into her image. She basically did what the marine corp couldn't, she broke him down and then built him back up as her servant. The reason for my question is in conversations with him he is looking for where he lost the ability to be a decision maker in his home. As an older person who has made my mistakes and recovered he has come to me as we both married into the same family. So maybe the question isn't "What is the reason for the hyphen and is this a proper thing to do as a Christian wife? " but can that decision set the tone for a dominat personality to control the marriage. Again, my post to this forum is based on his question to me and my doing a root cause analysis of the situation.
wow she sounds just like my husbands ex wife.Some women sadly are just controlling, bossy and want to be the boss no matter what The Bible says.Also many women spend years trying to make their husbands into what THEY want no matter how nice or godly they are anyway. SELFISH behaviour.
When she divorced him, she was quick to tell him that she was going to change her name back to her maiden name, but she never did for some reason..
< Message edited by herestoresmysoul -- 10/26/2009 8:59:59 PM >
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/26/2009 8:53:23 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
A lot of women feel their name is part of their identity and don't want to lose it or be subsumed by their husband.
I don't think it's a sin issue, but I was very happy to take my husband's name. 
Agree 100%. I was proud and privileged to take my wonderful DH's name.
Amen, me as well.I dont actually know anyone here in the UK that has even kept their maiden name.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/27/2009 5:20:40 AM
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Anon101
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Some women hyphenate if they are known by a certain name in the business world. To just switch your last name makes business kind of difficult when you are looking for someone on the email directory.
I think since 50% of women make up the workforce and society is very different than it was 30+ years ago, hyphenating is pretty much the norm if you work. If you don't have a reason to hyphenate, then there is really not much of a reason to not take his name unless it really sounds silly with your first name (like rhyming).
I don't see it so much as something God would look down on. It is more of a practical thing now. To take your husbands name is tradition and most men expect that to happen unless you have a good reason.
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RE: To Hyphenate or Not? - 10/27/2009 12:48:02 PM
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camanda
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I don't think it is a sin issue, but it is important to think about the effects of hyphenating your name.
Some women do feel that their last name is part of their identity. Is that all or is it to help make it easier in case of a divorce?
How do you name your children and what is the affect on them? Most of the time, I have seen a woman hyphenate her last name and then they name the child with the husband's last name. An older child may be able to understand the difference in last names but I have seen small children, even into the teens, not understand why mom has a different name.
< Message edited by camanda -- 10/27/2009 1:27:38 PM >
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