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What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 3:32:00 AM
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agapist
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We take our beliefs as truth, but I submit our beliefs about Christ are not truth; to believe that they are, we will fall short of truth.
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 3:47:54 AM
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Feyth
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My belief about Christ is that He IS the Truth.
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 5:50:43 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
We take our beliefs as truth, but I submit our beliefs about Christ are not truth; to believe that they are, we will fall short of truth.
I say, that they are Truth, IF they are based on His Word. We have been given the ability to know Him better by seeing who He is in His Word. This defines His characteristics, personality traits, ect. We know Him better by having a relationship with Him. Can we do that without knowing His Word?
No. Without His Word we then, make up a Jesus we have created in our heads, more than likely from hearing others talk about a Jesus. We just won't and can't know a Jesus we don't pursue.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 11:09:54 AM
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7OFUS
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quote:
We take our beliefs as truth, but I submit our beliefs about Christ are not truth; to believe that they are, we will fall short of truth.
agapist,
Not sure what you mean. Truth according to Jesus is God's word. John17:17 "Sanctify them by Your Truth. Your word is truth.18 As You have sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. Also John 8:31 "If you abide in My word you are my disciples indeed.32 And you shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall make you free.
Do you believe the Bible is God's word?
_____________________________
If you copy one person they call it plagerism;
if you copy many people they call it research.
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 11:36:48 AM
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Nick_Drake
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quote:
What is the end of all beliefs in Christ?
Galatians 5:6
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
If your faith in Christ is not bringing you to this end, then you're still an infant "tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming" (Eph. 4:14).
Christ-like character is the end-all of the christian faith that Christ is growing us up into where we are safe from the winds of misleading doctrines and all the schemes of our enemy the devil. It is the compass for every mature believer. Once you know this, any teaching that attempts to steer you away from the end-all message of godly character will instantly be recognized for what it is and can be resisted.
< Message edited by Nick_Drake -- 9/26/2009 11:50:03 AM >
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 12:47:40 PM
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agapist
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Sorry, I did not make myself especially clear, did I? It was one of the thoughts that come late at night, sort of stumble over it, and you think its very revaling. Lots of insights pouring in. And yes I meant beliefs based on Scripture.
What is curious, despite my vagueness, is that the answers thus far are right on target, right along the lines of my intention. Clearer than they were for me when I was posing this question.
Truth is Christ (not what we believe about Christ), as has been said, and Nick_drake gave the verse I was following when I wrote the question: "The only thing that counts is faith (in Christ) expressed through love."
Nick also nailed my point: the end of our beliefs is to ACTUALLY live and move and have our being in Christ.
Once we reach this maturity, truth expresses us. We do not hold it as a way to live our lives, we let The Way live our lives.
Beliefs are not where we stand on truth; beliefs are what lead us to abide in truth, Christ.
Ultimately, we are not to live by a system of belief but a spirit of action that comes with our complete surrender of ALL our heart, mind (where beliefs are stored), soul, and strength (our effort at following beliefs).
Truth sets us free of our thoughts and ways and we enter the mind of Christ.
This is why I also feel there are no Christian ethics or principles or standards but only Christ. We can't transfer them to a way of life because only actually being in Christ is Christian. Ethics is definitely out, unless we just say, "Yes, Lord" is our ethic. In him is truth, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. Principles and standards are just the discipline of keeping our focus on and trust in God (not as behavior modification or a system to live by), a process of reducing self-interest and self-reliance so that his love can flow unrestricted.
Is this making sense? I see it as a vital distinction and one that truly helps to know truth, BECOMING the heart of Christ.
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 1:41:36 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1822
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
We take our beliefs as truth, but I submit our beliefs about Christ are not truth; to believe that they are, we will fall short of truth.
Jesus. He's the end, the beginning, the all in all. 
We can so easily get confused, thinking our thoughts about truth are the truth. God's word certainly leads us to the Truth. But the Truth is not a set of beliefs. He's a person. And His name is Jesus. And His name is Love. And His desire is for us to give ourselves up so His life is our life.
Being found in Him, knowing Him (not knowing about Him) is eternal life. (Phil 3:7-11, John 17:3)
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 2:17:36 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
This is why I also feel there are no Christian ethics or principles or standards but only Christ. We can't transfer them to a way of life because only actually being in Christ is Christian. Ethics is definitely out, unless we just say, "Yes, Lord" is our ethic. In him is truth, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. Principles and standards are just the discipline of keeping our focus on and trust in God (not as behavior modification or a system to live by), a process of reducing self-interest and self-reliance so that his love can flow unrestricted.
But God has himself given us ethical standards to live by (for example the Ten commandments) because he knew that we love best and live best when we are following these standards. While it is true that following these standards will not, by itself, bring us into a relationship with our Lord, following these ethical standards always benefits us all, especially when we are in community with one another.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 2:23:19 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
Truth is Christ (not what we believe about Christ), as has been said, and Nick_drake gave the verse I was following when I wrote the question: "The only thing that counts is faith (in Christ) expressed through love."
While Christ is the the truth, what we believe about Christ can be a reflection of that truth. And while no human has the capacity to understand all truth, God has created us with the capacity to learn God's truth as we grown in our relationship with him. There is a big difference between the postmodern idea that "Truth cannot be known" and the biblical idea that "The infinite truth of God cannot be completely known"; one gives a target that we move towards as we Grow in Christ, the other leaves us completely without direction.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 4:02:20 PM
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agapist
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Sorry, benelchi, but putting these labels, such as "postmodern," is the cause of misunderstandings, dismissal or facile agreement. The mind goes, "Oh, he's one of those" or "Ah, he's one of us" without an in-depth reading or being fully open to the spirit of what is being said.
No one said or even implied, including me, this whatcamacallit belief that "truth cannot be known." Quite the contrary, in fact, so again I am at a loss over this groundless statement attributed to my views. Of course we can know truth by the grace sufficient to us, which will never be the full mind of God. But "knowing" truth is not of the mind but of the heart: true "knowledge" of God is love. No thought, no mental effort can teach us anything about love, and love is the only true "knowledge" we can have of God.
God gave the Jews ethical standards to live by as a lesson in our imperfection to follow them. It is a progressive revelation. We now have the in-dwelling Holy Spirit. Love is the sum of the law. Love, and the law is perfectly followed, not the other way around.
We do not "love best" by following these standards; love is the standard, which gives us perfect ritheousness. Is God love because he created the Ten Commandments? Love is perfect because God is love. God is not improved because he does not lie, cheat, or steal. Love never fails.
What you are suggesting is to forever be somewhat distant from Christ, in charge of following standards instead of being of one spirit with the standard-bearer, which is love, which is Christ.
These standards end in Christ, where we then live and move and have our being. The point is not that these standards can "benefit us," as you say, but that we can profit God's kingdom by allowing his love to flow through us, unrestricted by our thoughts and ways.
Liveloved perfectly summarized all I said in here and in post #7. Please read, benelchi.
Of course what we believe can reflect the truth about Christ's character but the truth is not in the belief but in Christ himself; see the nuance?
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 4:10:02 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4567
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From: California
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quote:
ut "knowing" truth is not of the mind but of the heart: true "knowledge" of God is love. No thought, no mental effort can teach us anything about love, and love is the only true "knowledge" we can have of God.
True love comes from both the heart, the soul, and the mind; again it is all about balance. God's creative design includes the heart, the mind, and the soul and all aspects are important. Remember Jesus said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'" (Mar 12:30 NIV). He did not say "Love the Lord your God with ONLY your heart"
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 4:56:59 PM
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yankeedoodled
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John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
yankeedoodled:
Wherefore is separation ? I see it not.
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 9/26/2009 6:35:01 PM
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agapist
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Benelchi, I do not know what you are disagreeing with. I said we give all our heart, mind, soul and strength to him and we get to express HIS love in an unrestricted flow. Did you read the rest? Did you read all the posts? Others are saying the exact same thing I am saying, and better than I did. Perhaps it will be clear if you open your heart and mind to theose other writers.
And can you please explain why you attributed that whatchamacallit belief about "truth cannot be known" to me. I am curious.
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RE: What is the end of all beliefs in Christ? - 10/6/2009 3:52:26 PM
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yankeedoodled
Posts: 197
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quote:
agapist:
We take our beliefs as truth, but I submit our beliefs about Christ are not truth; to believe that they are, we will fall short of truth.
yankeedoodled:
As the Lord is THEY WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, i see no seperation of God and truth. Believing in God is believing in truth.
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