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Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 10:59:37 AM
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Hisjoy
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We know that Jesus is God. Why, then, did He say, "Not My will, but Yours"? How could the will of Jesus--Emmanuel, God with us--be different than that of God the Father?
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 11:32:33 AM
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visus
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Jesus is part of what God is.
Being part of what God is, he has freewill to follow the the Fathers will, or not. That is why the devil tried to make him sin agianst the Father.
Also remember while Jesus was on earth he was a man and not God, beacuse he had given up being God.
Therefore like us he prayed that the Father's will be done.
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 11:46:27 AM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: visus
Jesus is part of what God is.
Being part of what God is, he has freewill to follow the the Fathers will, or not. That is why the devil tried to make him sin agianst the Father.
Also remember while Jesus was on earth he was a man and not God, beacuse he had given up being God.
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 2:02:09 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: visus
Jesus is part of what God is.
Being part of what God is, he has freewill to follow the the Fathers will, or not. That is why the devil tried to make him sin agianst the Father.
Also remember while Jesus was on earth he was a man and not God, beacuse he had given up being God.
Therefore like us he prayed that the Father's will be done.
The orthodox Christian view is that Jesus is BOTH God and man, and that neither His humanity nor His deity is in any way diminished, nor mixed/mingled in any way. Do I understand the exact way that this works? Nope, nor do I need to.
He is not part of God, because God is one, not divided. He surrendered His power and authority as God voluntarily placing it under that of the Father to demonstrate how we are to live our lives, surrendered to the will of God.
Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! (Philippians 2:6-8 Amplified Bible) The Amplified Bible attempts to show the nuances that a first century person would see and understand from the culture.
But only God Himself could provide a sacrifice, could endure God's wrath in our place, allowing the possibility of our Salvation. This is foreshadowed way back in Genesis: "Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together." (Genesis 22:8 NASB )
If you are familiar with the context, Abraham was walking up mountain where God had commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac..the whole of Genesis 22:1-18 is a close mirror image of what was going on...but, of course in that case God stopped the sacrifice and provided an actual lamb because this is merely a picture, not the real thing.
But Isaac wasn't (as often portrayed) a young child...he carried the wood for the sacrifice on his back (like a cross), he was certainly strong enough to have overcome a man 100 years older than himself....but he allowed himself to be bound in submission to his father's will.
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED." He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type. (Hebrews 11:17-19 NASB)
By the way, the word one in God is one, in The Father and I are one through out scripture is not the one of singularity, but the one of unity. To understand the difference the same word for one is used when the phrase "the two will become one flesh" or "They were of one mind" occurs...that doesn't mean that they only had one brain between them, or one body...but rather that they would be so united in their thoughts and desires that there was no real difference between how they would react to a situation.
Now to respond to Hisjoy: 
quote:
We know that Jesus is God. Why, then, did He say, "Not My will, but Yours"? How could the will of Jesus--Emmanuel, God with us--be different than that of God the Father?
According to scripture the plan of salvation existed before time began, Jesus Himself came willingly to fulfill His part of the plan. The very fact that Jesus, in the garden could ask that if there were any other way, that this cup should pass form His hand is a demonstration of the idea that Jesus and the Father being one....unity one not singularity one.
Did He look forward to the pain and humiliation that awaited Him in those rapidly approaching hours? Nope....
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2 NASB )
I have heard some people say that He said that as a way of showing that there was no way other than Himself to gain salvation....this is true, but it had been stated many times much more clearly.
Quite honestly I suspect that this one one final temptation, especially since Luke tells us:
When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time. (Luke 4:13)
But there is never any other indication that Satan again tempted Him except, perhaps, here.
Jesus passed this test as well...even when faced with the horrors to come, He didn't rebel, didn't tell God that this was too much to ask. His response was "Not My will, but Thine be done.
By the way what do you think the "joy that was set before Him" in Hebrews 12:2 was? What was it that made all that humiliation and pain worthwhile?
Because He is referred to as the author and perfecter of faith, it can only be us...those who through faith (and even that being a gift from God) have been saved through His sacrifice.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 2:15:11 PM
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BerianAardvark
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BTW...the orthodoxy of Christ's dual nature...human and divine is not merely my opinion it can be found in Crosswalk's statement of the Range of Doctrines:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Range_of_Doctrines/m_1014/tm.htm
Orthodoxy:
"Orthodoxy" is a somewhat wider designation than "Evangelicalism," taking in those areas of agreement on core doctrine shared by members of historic Christian tradition that would not necessarily claim to be "Evangelical." These would include conservative Catholics and members of the Russian or Greek Orthodox communions. Orthodox doctrines held in common by these groups and Evangelicals include the dual full humanity and deity of Christ, the centrality of the crucifixion in atonement for sin, the historical truthfulness of Christ's physical resurrection, the reality of an eternal heaven and hell, and the absolute authority of Scripture.
Sorry to be replying to my own post.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 3:26:21 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving from The Bible to God.
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 3:32:01 PM
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txparent
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I once had this discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses and had to do a bit of studying up on it. The conclusion I came to is that Jesus referred to the Father in part because he was modeling the relationship we are to have with the Father once we're saved. When we are covered with Christ's blood, God no longer sees us. He just sees his son. And we have our example of how we, as sons of the promise, are to relate to God the Father.
This is not to say that Jesus didn't have free will. He did. But people use the Father/Son terminology to set Jesus up as some lesser god (the mighty god versus the Almighty God) and that just isn't supported in scripture.
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 4:19:52 PM
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Hisjoy
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Thanks for all your answers...still more questions.
Jesus is perfect, and even if "one in unity," I don't get how He could differ from God the Father in any point, even for the few seconds of His statement. I would suggest that the "joy set before Him" is the salvation of those for Whom He would die, and His resurrected life in them. (I am referring to a few previous posts.)
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/26/2008 5:45:15 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hisjoy
Thanks for all your answers...still more questions.
Jesus is perfect, and even if "one in unity," I don't get how He could differ from God the Father in any point, even for the few seconds of His statement. I would suggest that the "joy set before Him" is the salvation of those for Whom He would die, and His resurrected life in them. (I am referring to a few previous posts.)
The point is that they didn't differ, even for that moment, if Jesus and God had not been in agreement Jesus would not have followed "Is there any other way" with "But not MY will but YOURS." Jesus knew from before the beginning of time exactly what His part in the plan of Salvation was to be.
Have you ever faced an extremely unpleasant situation (say a pending surgery) all the arrangements have been made, you, your family and the doctors all are in complete agreement...you are one (at least as far as the need for this operation goes). Does asking the Doctor (at the last minute) "Is this really the only way?" indicate that you are no longer willing...no longer of one accord about the operation? No, because you are still willing to go through with it...but it would be nice if there were a sudden last minute alternate solution.
God did turn His face from Jesus during the crucifixion. Remember His anguished cry from the cross.... "At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?""
(Mark 15:34 NASB)
For at that moment He who knew no sin became sin for us....and the Father cannot look upon sin.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
(2 Corinthians 5:21 NASB)
But even that was foretold in Psalms 22.
My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me, and art far from my help at the words of my cry? (Psalms 22:1 - Psalms 22:1-2 in the Jewish Scriptures)
I am personally of the opinion that that momentary turning away was the greatest reason for Jesus having any sort of second thoughts and opened the door for Satan's last opportunity to tempt the Lord.
If you haven't read the 22nd Psalm, please do so, it is so obviously a description of the crucifixion that it is scary...especially considering that it was written about a thousand years before crucifixion was invented.
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/27/2008 3:24:48 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Ahhhh... the mystery of the trinity is the misery of theologians. Three persons, one being. Just like how Jesus is fully God and Fully man without either being diminished or mingled, God has three persons in the Trinity, yet the three are still one. I believe it was Townsend who referred to the Trinity as the "Infinite Community of Single Action". Until you can find a way to explain the "three persons, one spirit" mystery, Jesus' words alluding to it are going to be just as mysterious.
Adam
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 5/30/2008 2:01:45 PM
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Hisjoy
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Jesus, Master of Metaphors, did ask if the cup could be taken away. Then He said, 'Not My will, but yours." The Amplified Bible adds "not my desire." By His saying that, it appears that there are two different wills. Yes, I'm familiar with Psalm 22, Tim. Your comment is why this saying is such an mystery to me, Adam.
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 6/8/2008 4:16:21 AM
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BibleBased
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A wise man once said, if you meet someone who says they can explain the trinity either:
Fall at their feet and worship them (because they are that one God we worship)
OR
Start running away from them (because they are a FOOL!).
Love & God bless, BibleBased.
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 6/8/2008 7:20:38 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hisjoy
Jesus, Master of Metaphors, did ask if the cup could be taken away. Then He said, 'Not My will, but yours." The Amplified Bible adds "not my desire." By His saying that, it appears that there are two different wills. Yes, I'm familiar with Psalm 22, Tim. Your comment is why this saying is such an mystery to me, Adam.
As I tried to point out using the analogy of the pending surgery:
quote:
Me: Have you ever faced an extremely unpleasant situation (say a pending surgery) all the arrangements have been made, you, your family and the doctors all are in complete agreement...you are one (at least as far as the need for this operation goes). Does asking the Doctor (at the last minute) "Is this really the only way?" indicate that you are no longer willing...no longer of one accord about the operation? No, because you are still willing to go through with it...
Expressing a last minute to avoid a painful, distasteful situation doesn't indicate a change of heart. Jesus stood ready to follow through on the plan, as always submitting to the Father's will:
So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?" (John 18:11)
Again, I think that this was an expression of the final temptation. After that temptation in the wilderness it states:
And when the devil had ended every [the complete cycle of] temptation, he [temporarily] left Him [that is, stood off from Him] until another more opportune and favorable time. (Luke 4:13 Amplified Bible)
And this was Satan's last shot.
When Satan was tempting Jesus in the wilderness, he offered Him much the same sort of deal:
Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." (Matthew 4:8-9)
If Jesus had accepted the deal, there would have been no propitiating sacrifice...He would have had the whole world...but it would have been a world of unredeemed sinners, without Salvation.
(Sort of a "gain the whole world but lose the soul thing on amass production scale.)
Hope this helps a bit,
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 6/8/2008 8:44:46 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: visus
Jesus is part of what God is.
Being part of what God is, he has freewill to follow the the Fathers will, or not. That is why the devil tried to make him sin agianst the Father.
Also remember while Jesus was on earth he was a man and not God, beacuse he had given up being God.
Therefore like us he prayed that the Father's will be done.
The above is not biblical - it is heretical in light of Scripture.
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 6/13/2008 1:25:36 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
God has three persons in the Trinity, yet the three are still one.
The closest analogy I have been able to discover for how there can be three distinct and separate things, but also only one is a simple line...it is impossible to draw a one dimensional line, or even a two dimensional line...all three are unique and individually identifiable, there is still only one line which exists only as an interrelationship between the three.
no analogy is perfect...even the best picture/analogy of a cow will never jump up and start eating grass and giving milk...but this seems to fit pretty well.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 6/16/2008 4:12:57 PM
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Butterflytearz
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quote:
We know that Jesus is God. Why, then, did He say, "Not My will, but Yours"? How could the will of Jesus--Emmanuel, God with us--be different than that of God the Father?
I Believe here Jesus was talking on our behalf,, He took on flesh to be the righteous for the unrighteous, and in so doing God is fulling his covenant promise to us thru Abraham and his seed.
Here are some verses that explain His flesh for our flesh:
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 enough to make me cry it is
< Message edited by Butterflytearz -- 6/16/2008 4:25:12 PM >
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RE: Why did Jesus say...? - 6/16/2008 9:06:58 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The closest analogy I have been able to discover for how there can be three distinct and separate things, but also only one is a simple line...it is impossible to draw a one dimensional line, or even a two dimensional line...all three are unique and individually identifiable, there is still only one line which exists only as an interrelationship between the three. Well, not to get too technical here, because my high school geometry was a long time ago in a land far away... By definition, a line is one-dimensional but you cannot see it because it has no width or height, only length. A plane is two-dimensional, but if you rotate it to look at its edge, it too becomes invisible because it has no height from that angle. So, only a cube with all three dimensions can be seen from every angle because it has length, width, and height. Thus, a cube is a single entity which requires three aspects for visualization. Each dimension is distinct but cannot be separated from the geometric existence of the cube. God is a single Entity expressing his Essence in three distinct, but not separate Persons.
Perhaps THIS ARTICLE on the TRINITY will provide further illumination.
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