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baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/22/2008 10:19:19 PM
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CurlyQ19
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Matthew 28:18,19 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
This passage here is Jesus speaking to the disciples telling them how they should baptize. if you notice no one is being baptized in this passage, only being told what to do! and where else is the best place to see where this took place? the book of Acts! you can say that the book of Acts is the "acts" of the apostles. and you notice that they never baptized in the the titles of Father Son Holy Ghost.
So what you have is Jesus commanding them to go and obey him and how did they obey him, by baptizing in Jesus' name!
if you are baptized in the titles "Father Son Holy Ghost" i believe that you're just repeating what Jesus said to do and not obeying what he commanded us to do!
I believe that it was the Council of Nicaea they decided that it should be in the "titles" because there was a lot of differences and they just said "this is how we are going to do it" (not official quote) to resolve that matter.
I would like to hear what others have to say about this!
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/22/2008 11:10:16 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Hi, CurlyQ.
You might want to read the Terms of Service, the Community Statement of Faith and the Range of Doctrines for this site. You will find links to these documents near the bottom of each page, right above the Salem logo.
In reading them, you will find that this is a Trinitarian website. We do not require that you believe as we do in order to post on this site, but we do not allow forceful and sustained arguments against our beliefs.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/23/2008 12:13:09 AM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2663
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19
I believe that it was the Council of Nicaea they decided that it should be in the "titles" because there was a lot of differences and they just said "this is how we are going to do it" (not official quote) to resolve that matter.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not merely "titles" of God. The Father really is the Father of the Son. The Son is begotten of the Father. God begat God. There is a real and genunine Father/Son relationship between the two, that exists eternally.
Furthermore, you are completely ignorant of what the name of God is. God gave His name to Moses in Genesis 3. The LORD (the Hebrew tetragrammaton, roughly YHWH) is the name of God for all generations. God says of Himself that "I AM WHO I AM", and we say of Him that "HE IS". The Father is LORD, the Son is LORD and the Holy Spirit is LORD. Three persons, one God, one holy name above all names. Baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is baptizing in the singular name of the LORD. The name of the LORD is not a magic word or an incantation, it is an identity. When humans do things proclaiming them to be what God wants to be done, we are doing them in His authority. (Similarly, police officers do their work in the "name of the law", they work under the authority of the laws of their locality).
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/23/2008 6:10:10 PM
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CurlyQ19
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Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
This is what the Apostles did! so did they do it wrong and misunderstand what Jesus told them to do? Why would this change now its all NT which is the new church!
i haven't seen anywhere in the NT where the apostles baptized in Father Son and Holy Ghost!
Matthew 28:19 says that it should be done in the "name" of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? would there be three different names or just one name!
On that same day that Jesus to the disciples to do that Jesus handed Peter the keys to the church, and gave the slavation plan and still on that same day you have the gentiles asking Peter what they schould do:
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were ****ed in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Was Peter disobeying Jesus when he said this (the name of Jesus Christ part)? if He was this whole Bible is false than and cannot be the infaluable Word of God!
someone show me scripturally where i am wrong with this, where Jesus' name baptism is not correct! And i will conform to that and change the way i believe this and would be willing to be baptized the right way!
i would rather follow what the Bible says to do and how it gives actual examples of the disciples doing it! instead of a believing something that isn't even scriptually correct from what i have seen nad read from the Word of God!
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/23/2008 6:41:46 PM
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Doghouse
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How about this? By invoking the name of Jesus, you ARE invoking the name of God and the Holy Spirit. So why not just call it what it is, and accept a Triune Baptism like the rest of Christianity...in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - Amen.
_____________________________
"Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and gifts will be given to you;...For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you."
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/23/2008 10:17:56 PM
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CurlyQ19
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thats just it you are to caught up in tradition and what everyone else says instaed of acyually doing it yourself and if you have noticed more and more trinitarians are doing Jesus' name baptism! please back up where in scripture it shows us that people are being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost! i could list many but i wonder if anyone else can?
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/23/2008 10:38:11 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 98
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
How about this? By invoking the name of Jesus, you ARE invoking the name of God and the Holy Spirit. So why not just call it what it is, and accept a Triune Baptism like the rest of Christianity...in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - Amen.
So are you saying the name of the Holy Spirit is...Jesus?
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/23/2008 11:15:09 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2663
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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CurlyQ19, doing something "in the name" of another is not about just saying a specific set of syllables. That's absurd, and J-E-S-U-S isn't the name of Jesus, because it's an English approximation of a Latinized version of a Greek adaptation of what was probably a Hebrew nick-name. The actual given name of the Messiah most certainly did not have a "J" sound in it. So, if you want to argue about the word "jesus" having mystical properties, then your entire premise is fundamentally flawed.
To reference the analogy I used before, if a police officer is doing his duties "in the name of the law", it is not the word "law" or the letters L-A-W that give him his authority. It is the government that he is in the employ of. The same applies to Christians. When Christians do something in the name of God, in the name of Jesus, in the name of the LORD, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, it is not about the wording we use to declare that we are in the employ of the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the Alpha and the Omega, the Good Shepherd, etc. It is about WHO we are working for, and if we are actually doing what He has called us to do.
Ultimately the phrasing is of secondary importantance. Someone who is baptized "in the name of Jesus", but has no faith in the triune God of the Bible is not saved. However, someone who is baptized "in the name of Jesus", "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit", "in the name of the LORD", "in the name of Jehovah/Yahweh" or any other of a variety of ways of referring to the one true God, and has faith in the real and true God who is revealed in scripture, then they are saved, regardless of the specific words used. It is not magic words that save, it is grace through faith.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/23/2008 11:17:32 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2663
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
How about this? By invoking the name of Jesus, you ARE invoking the name of God and the Holy Spirit. So why not just call it what it is, and accept a Triune Baptism like the rest of Christianity...in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - Amen.
So are you saying the name of the Holy Spirit is...Jesus?
I imagine that Doghouse is saying that God is one name, despite being three persons. The Father is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son. Yet, the Father is LORD, the Son is LORD, the Holy Spirit is LORD, and there are not three lords, but only one LORD.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 1:15:35 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CurlyQ19
Matthew 28:18,19 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
This passage here is Jesus speaking to the disciples telling them how they should baptize. if you notice no one is being baptized in this passage, only being told what to do! and where else is the best place to see where this took place? the book of Acts! you can say that the book of Acts is the "acts" of the apostles. and you notice that they never baptized in the the titles of Father Son Holy Ghost.
So what you have is Jesus commanding them to go and obey him and how did they obey him, by baptizing in Jesus' name!
if you are baptized in the titles "Father Son Holy Ghost" i believe that you're just repeating what Jesus said to do and not obeying what he commanded us to do!
I believe that it was the Council of Nicaea they decided that it should be in the "titles" because there was a lot of differences and they just said "this is how we are going to do it" (not official quote) to resolve that matter.
I would like to hear what others have to say about this!
The only people I know of who are "Jesus Only" deny the Trinity.
I believe that there is One God in Three Persons. There are Three in One, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Jesus was sent by the Father.
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 6
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 16
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son.
So this is hardly about baptism. It appears to be an attempt to deny the Triune God.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 11:40:54 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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CurlyQ saidquote:
if you are baptized in the titles "Father Son Holy Ghost" i believe that you're just repeating what Jesus said to do and not obeying what he commanded us to do!
You're suggesting, of course, that repeating the words "Father, Son and HS" is insincere and disobedient but that repeating the words "in the name of Jesus" is sincere and obedient. Somehow, it does not follow that one "merely repeating words" but the other is not.
quote:
I believe that it was the Council of Nicaea they decided that it should be in the "titles" because there was a lot of differences and they just said "this is how we are going to do it" (not official quote) to resolve that matter.
I don't know. But I'll bet you don't have any documentation that the Council of Nicea established that. People often blame the Council of Nicea for things they don't like--even if the evidence does not exist.
quote:
So what you have is Jesus commanding them to go and obey him and how did they obey him, by baptizing in Jesus' name!
Jesus said "baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and HS," but you say that people who do that are not obeying Him. Huh? How's that again?
quote:
i haven't seen anywhere in the NT where the apostles baptized in Father Son and Holy Ghost!
So what?
quote:
someone show me scripturally where i am wrong with this, where Jesus' name baptism is not correct! And i will conform to that and change the way i believe this and would be willing to be baptized the right way!
You are presuming that we would argue that baptizing "in the name of Jesus" is wrong. Frankly, you can do whatever you want. I don't think there's a problem either way.quote:
thats just it you are to caught up in tradition and what everyone else says instaed of acyually doing it yourself and if you have noticed more and more trinitarians are doing Jesus' name baptism! please back up where in scripture it shows us that people are being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost! i could list many but i wonder if anyone else can?
This is a set up, right? In other words, you are defining the proof-texts that you will accept. No scripture says that if you "baptize in the name of the Father, Son and HS," it's wrong--either.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 1:57:56 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
The only people I know of who are "Jesus Only" deny the Trinity.
True and they cannot backup their baptism claim apart from the book of Acts. Error only begats more error.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 2:03:00 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
CurlyQ saidquote:
if you are baptized in the titles "Father Son Holy Ghost" i believe that you're just repeating what Jesus said to do and not obeying what he commanded us to do!
You're suggesting, of course, that repeating the words "Father, Son and HS" is insincere and disobedient but that repeating the words "in the name of Jesus" is sincere and obedient. Somehow, it does not follow that one "merely repeating words" but the other is not.
He's also suggesting that Jesus complicated His gift of salvation so much that only those who can unravel how Jesus' words mean something other than what He said can be saved. The oneness crew are the only ones to be able to be baptized "correctly" and saved between the death of the last of the original 12 until their founder came up with his magic decoder ring.
Imagine, the only time since the creation that God had no remnant...
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 2:49:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
He's also suggesting that Jesus complicated His gift of salvation so much that only those who can unravel how Jesus' words mean something other than what He said can be saved. The oneness crew are the only ones to be able to be baptized "correctly" and saved between the death of the last of the original 12 until their founder came up with his magic decoder ring.
Imagine, the only time since the creation that God had no remnant...
Indeed. And I agree. To me, it smacks of circular reasoning. Not to mention that he starts with the premise that the trinitarian baptismal formula is only sincere mouthing of words--and then he argues that a sincere mouthing of words is the only right way. It's a classic fallacious argument.
1) Set up a straw man.
2) Demonize it.
3) Offer selective proof texts as the alternative.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 5:36:06 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 424
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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CurlyQ19,
This is a subject that had bothered me for years. Not only is it obvious that the command isn't to baptize in the name(sing) of God , but also is it obvious that the name of Jesus (as used in Acts) isn't the name of the Father nor is it the name of the Holy Spirit as Ephesians4_32 aptly pointed out in her post. The dilemma was brought to a head for me when I first read in a study bible, and as you pointed out also, that in the book of Acts they baptized in the name of "Jesus" all four times (Act 2:38, 8:12, 10:48, 19:5).
As I looked and meditated upon the command it now seems good to me to believe that it isn't speaking of three monikers for the one God, nor is it speaking of one moniker for a triune God. It is speaking of three baptisms and the authority/name of the Godhead that's associated for each of the baptisms.
Though scriptures deal with numerous baptisms this particular command seems to deal with only three of them and the authority associated with each. I now look at it like this which is consisent with Peter's first sermon in Acts.
The first baptism is a baptism of repentance which is associated with the Father .
The second baptism is a baptism of obedience to/like Jesus.
The third is another, scripturally distinct baptism, and it is the baptism of power from The Holy Spirit.
So I certainly am not falling into a trap of being caught up in traditional thinking like everyone else here...including you. 
quote:
thats just it you are to caught up in tradition and what everyone else says instaed of acyually doing it yourself
So, even though my POV is contrary to that of tradition, it certainly supports the 'Trinitarian' perspective in comparison to your 'Oneness' POV. So I'm curious as to your thoughts.
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 4/24/2008 5:49:24 PM >
_____________________________
Doctrine learned and not lived is lost.
Eyes closed to advice may still be open to example.
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 6:26:58 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2663
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
It is speaking of three baptisms
Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
You're claiming three baptisms, three Lords, and some other faith following a false gospel.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 6:50:58 PM
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CurlyQ19
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
The only people I know of who are "Jesus Only" deny the Trinity
Actually i am Jesus all but thats ok you can make your assumptions
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 7:01:55 PM
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CurlyQ19
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[/quote
So if God is a trinity and sent his son that would mean that there is a fourth person
Sorry lets stick to the baptizing in Jesus name! i would like scriptural examples of people being baptized in Father Son and Holy Ghost! i have already given my scripture references of Jesus name baptism!
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RE: baptism in Jesus' name or Father, Son, Holy Ghost - 4/24/2008 7:21:53 PM
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CurlyQ19
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
CurlyQ19,
This is a subject that had bothered me for years. Not only is it obvious that the command isn't to baptize in the name(sing) of God , but also is it obvious that the name of Jesus (as used in Acts) isn't the name of the Father nor is it the name of the Holy Spirit as Ephesians4_32 aptly pointed out in her post. The dilemma was brought to a head for me when I first read in a study bible, and as you pointed out also, that in the book of Acts they baptized in the name of "Jesus" all four times (Act 2:38, 8:12, 10:48, 19:5).
As I looked and meditated upon the command it now seems good to me to believe that it isn't speaking of three monikers for the one God, nor is it speaking of one moniker for a triune God. It is speaking of three baptisms and the authority/name of the Godhead that's associated for each of the baptisms.
Though scriptures deal with numerous baptisms this particular command seems to deal with only three of them and the authority associated with each. I now look at it like this which is consisent with Peter's first sermon in Acts.
The first baptism is a baptism of repentance which is associated with the Father .
The second baptism is a baptism of obedience to/like Jesus.
The third is another, scripturally distinct baptism, and it is the baptism of power from The Holy Spirit.
So I certainly am not falling into a trap of being caught up in traditional thinking like everyone else here...including you.
quote:
thats just it you are to caught up in tradition and what everyone else says instaed of acyually doing it yourself
So, even though my POV is contrary to that of tradition, it certainly supports the 'Trinitarian' perspective in comparison to your 'Oneness' POV. So I'm curious as to your thoughts.
DR
quote:
CurlyQ19,
This is a subject that had bothered me for years. Not only is it obvious that the command isn't to baptize in the name(sing) of God , but also is it obvious that the name of Jesus (as used in Acts) isn't the name of the Father nor is it the name of the Holy Spirit as Ephesians4_32 aptly pointed out in her post. The dilemma was brought to a head for me when I first read in a study bible, and as you pointed out also, that in the book of Acts they baptized in the name of "Jesus" all four times (Act 2:38, 8:12, 10:48, 19:5).
As I looked and meditated upon the command it now seems good to me to believe that it isn't speaking of three monikers for the one God, nor is it speaking of one moniker for a triune God. It is speaking of three baptisms and the authority/name of the Godhead that's associated for each of the baptisms.
Though scriptures deal with numerous baptisms this particular command seems to deal with only three of them and the authority associated with each. I now look at it like this which is consisent with Peter's first sermon in Acts.
The first baptism is a baptism of repentance which is associated with the Father .
The second baptism is a baptism of obedience to/like Jesus.
The third is another, scripturally distinct baptism, and it is the baptism of power from The Holy Spirit.
So I certainly am not falling into a trap of being caught up in traditional thinking like everyone else here...including you.
quote:
thats just it you are to caught up in tradition and what everyone else says instaed of acyually doing it yourself
So, even though my POV is contrary to that of tradition, it certainly supports the 'Trinitarian' perspective in comparison to your 'Oneness' POV. So I'm curious as to your thoughts.
DR
The only name that the disciples ever knew was Jesus! so when Jesus told them to go and baptize in the "name" (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost! What you have here is Jesus commanding that it be done in a name! so when you baptize you can wither baptize in the name of Jesus just like the disciples did and even when they prayed to cast out demons or heal people it was all done in Jesus name or in the name of the Lord Jesus! Otherwise you can try and figure out what the name of the Father is the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Ghost and that would be expectable if you knew the names of each! but than that would goes against the scripture because it said in the "name" (singular)
you cant be baptized in repentance, repentance (verb [ intrans. ]
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin) is you asking God to forgive you and then you get baptized with water when you get baptized you are covered by the blood of the Lamb and then when you repent after you been batized your sins can be removed because the blood washes it away!
i know there is two types of baptism, through water and the spirit! i believe its John 3:5 (correct me if i am wrong there)
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