Punishment for marital rape (Full Version)

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DaveW -> Punishment for marital rape (7/10/2006 8:47:00 AM)

In the women's folder there is a thread on what should be the punishment for marital rape. THe current consensus is that it should be the same as rape by a stranger.

Guys, what do you think about this?

Do you think marital rape exists, and should it be a crime?

What should the punishment be?



M12 -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/10/2006 10:46:32 AM)

If it's violent, brutal, malicious (the nature of rape)...I tend to agree with the ladies. Same punishment.

But it also depends on the nature of the relationship. The term "rape" could become very grey...and dangerous if you start down that path. For example, if a man is being "playful" w/ his wife of 15 years and "jumps" her, even though there isn't "official" verbal consent, I wouldn't necessarily call it rape. Hey, sometimes women like surprises...we never know. I've never been married, but women can be the same way. So it depends on the nature of the relationship. So, I think to even qualify as "rape" in a marriage...there has to be a "clear" boundary violation...excessive force, malice, violence. Otherwise, half the guys in America would be tied up in the court system...and a good number of women as well.

If a guy is married to a woman and doesn't "know" or respect her boundaries, that's sad....and yes, criminal in some cases. IMO.



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (7/10/2006 11:51:29 AM)

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Mr.Harvey -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/10/2006 10:42:30 PM)

Crazy thinking like This is the result of licensed adultery (divorce and remarriage). Blended marriages and rediculous thinking not previously entertained until marriage come into disrespect and disrepair as now is. The old school was if you didn't want it, don't do it. (If you don't want to have sex, don't marry). Of course, sodomy was still sodomy and illegal, wrong, and begging the judgment of God.

Marriage entitles sexual relations biblically. If the WIFE resists there could be PHYSICAL ABUSE CHARGES (yesterday), but not RAPE biblically because her body is NOT her own after marriage, but the husbands.

Obviously if a husband is FORCING his wife, he obviously is NOT loving his WIFE as CHRIST commands. So he is being abusive. But a husband can not RAPE his wife by long standing definitions.

That's like saying you just STOLE something from a store that you legally had paid for in full.

Logic to the contrary is also proof that America has been feminized, sad, but true. Repent ye double minded.

Grandpa told you so



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (7/11/2006 8:24:48 AM)

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DaveW -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 10:53:23 AM)

Remember the flip side of the coin: his body belongs to her and she has absolute say over what he does with it.

On the women's list someone said this:
quote:

I think we need a definition of Rape:

1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.
I looked up a few of my own:

legal-explainations.com:
Rape
"(n) Rape is the sexual intercourse of penetrating vagina by penis without the consent of the women by resorting force, threat or violence etc.

dictionary.law.com
rape
1) n. the crime of sexual intercourse (with actual penetration of a woman's vagina with the man's penis) without consent and accomplished through force, threat of violence or intimidation (such as a threat to harm a woman's child, husband or boyfriend). What constitutes lack of consent usually includes saying "no" or being too drunk or drug-influenced for the woman to be able to either resist or consent

legal-term.com
Rape
Rape information: Unlawful sexual intercourse with a female, against her will.

etymonline.com
rape (v.)
c.1386, "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper, O.Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). L. rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual L. word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in Eng. as a noun, 1481 (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1577. Rapist is from 1883.

All classic legal definitions of rape involve "penetration." Many states now use another term such as "Criminal Sexual Conduct" to define sex crimes.

Another related question, if a guy forces his wife, and is convicted of CSC, his name goes on the sex offenders list for life. IS that right?



zamdad -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 1:10:21 PM)

quote:

Another related question, if a guy forces his wife, and is convicted of CSC, his name goes on the sex offenders list for life. IS that right?


If convicted, the person is, by legal definition, a sex offender. Registration requirements vary by state. In the state I live in, registration is required for 10 years. However, if that person is arrested for any offense and spends a night in jail, that registration period begins all over again. If the person is convicted of a subsequent sex offense, lifetime registration applies.

Now, as to the OP. We can hash out the definition of rape till the cows come home. As has been pointed out, the laws in most states have been changed to reflect Crimnal Sexual Conduct, sexual assault, etc.

Can Criminal Sexual Conduct occur within a marriage? I believe it can. There are men out there who have forced and coerced their wives into sexual behavior against their will, or engaged in sexual activity while they were incapacitated in some way. It's harder for prosecutors to prove within a mariage, but it happens. I have worked in corrections for the past 15 years. The last five have been supervising sex offenders in the community. As part of that supervision, I sit in on sex offender treatment groups. Most of us like to keep our private lives private. Sex offender treatment takes away that veil of privacy as offenders are required to disclose their entire sexual history.

I have heard some horrific stories of spouses abusing each other physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and sexually. As human beings, our fleshly desires strive to feed self. Even if that feeding at the expense of those we profess to love the most. As Christians, we are to palce the needs of our spouses above our own. Ideally both husband and wife will be placing the needs of the other above self. But, this world is not ideal. We have to be cognizant of our motives and attentive to our spouses and always have the mind of Christ as our goal.

As for a proper punishment, the legal system is effective. it may not always seem so, but it works. People convicted of sex crimes are often mandated to complete sex offender treatment. In some states, a conviction automtically means a commit to prison, in other states the prison time is stayed. Either way, sex offender treatment can be completed. Sex offender treatment is not simply about learning how to manage behavior. It's all encompassing. It gets the individual to examine their life, their core beliefs and values and attitudes and how their desire to have a fleshly desire met harmed another person in very significant ways.



DaveW -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 2:16:54 PM)

You said the legal system is "effective." But you also said it is hard to prosecute CSC within a marriage. That seems contradictory.

My opinion is that sex offenders of the violent type (not the 16 yo boy who has consentual sex with his 14 yo gf) should never see the light of day again.

As to within a marriage, I am really torn. Part of me says prosecute with the exact same criteara as raping a stranger and then lock him away and never let him out. Another part says a different standard shoud apply. I really am undecided here.

I still think adultery should bring the death penalty.



zamdad -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 2:41:07 PM)

quote:

DaveW
You said the legal system is "effective." But you also said it is hard to prosecute CSC within a marriage. That seems contradictory.


The thing to understand is that the system has different parts that all work together. Prosecuting any type of CSC case is difficult. When you consider that most sexual offenses occur between people who already have some type of relationship with each other, the state has the burden of proving that the perpetrator actually committed the crime as they say he/she did. All sorts of defenses can be raised.

I work at another end of the system. After someone has been charged and convicted, the court imposes some type of punishment. My job is to learn as much about the person as I can before they are sentenced, write a report making a recommendation for sentencing, and then to enforce the conditions the court imposes on the offender. I say the system is effective. It's not perfect.

quote:

My opinion is that sex offenders of the violent type (not the 16 yo boy who has consentual sex with his 14 yo gf) should never see the light of day again.


Problem is that anyone convicted of a sex crime is labled as a predatory offender by virtue of their conviction and their duty to register. People hear the terms sex offender and generate this mental image of a monster; the serial rapist lurking behind the bushes or the old man luring kids away from their parents with a lost puppy or some candy. The violent rapist is actually rare. Most offenders are opportunistic, not predatory. Most offenders are really have excellent interpersonal skills. They have to develop the trust of another person to get that person to become vulnerable enough to expose themelves to sexual contact. While there might not be any violence in terms of force, the thinking that went into grooming the victim leaves mental scars that last a lifetime for the victim. Is that not violent?

Jesus dealt with sexual sin several times in scripture. He met the woman at the well and exposed her adulterous lifestyle. The crowd brought him the woman caught in adultery and asked what should be done with her according to the law. Jesus dealt with sexual sin graciously. He had compassion. He told them to go and sin no more. We don't seem to be able to treat those caught in sexual sin the way Jesus did. Why is that? Is it because if we have compassion we have to examine ourselves? Do they (sex offenders) make a good scapegoat from having to examine ourselves? Are we still holding the stones we intended to throw at the adulterous woman?



Sc1t0r -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 5:38:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

In the women's folder there is a thread on what should be the punishment for marital rape. THe current consensus is that it should be the same as rape by a stranger.

Guys, what do you think about this?

Do you think marital rape exists, and should it be a crime?

What should the punishment be?


No way.

Marital rape? I've always had problems with that term. ANYone with a wicked agenda could claim rape against anyone they've had sexual realtions with. Of course, people would have trouble believing a woman raped a man... and a wicked woman could claim her husband raped her.. but where's the proof? Is a husband, pinning his wife down to have sex with her rape? What defines rape in a marriage?

When she says, "No."?

See, even then, I have a problem with it. A wife and husband are to give to each other of this. If a man is pinning her down, yet lovingly trying to... ehh it's too "grey". I hate it. It's of Satan,and the liberals are holding hands with Satan on this one.. destroy marriage with "rights" and villifying your spouse. Satanswants to break down the church and marriage. He wants us to think we don't need God, or each other....

The notion of marital rape. It's almost an oxymoron. It actually sounds like a litigous term used by 3rd Reich Femi-Nazi Women's Lib Czar's who hate God, burn flags, don't eat meat, and glorify same sex sexual relationships.

Disgusting.

Yes, it would be insensitive and unloving for a man to force his wife to do something sexual. If he took a gun or another inanimate object out and threatened her life, or her health, yes, that could be seen as rape. Yet, if he was aggressive in order to persuade her, I could see that as a wonderful thing. Wonderful? YES.. because that could be the answer to some dynamic in thier relationship. By my understanding, sometimes what a man or woman needs in a marriage is ... sex. Sex was made for wayyy more than just "baby making'.

I can see how women that want to abandon thier husbands and join the donkey worshipping, yuppy, women's lib, bra burning, femi-nazi, anti-man, baby killing, elitists could use this as a way out.. and a way to villify man.

Yeah, and God is male, so they hate Him for that.. blah.

Anyhow.. This isssue is retarded. Thanks.



Sc1t0r -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 5:52:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

You said the legal system is "effective." But you also said it is hard to prosecute CSC within a marriage. That seems contradictory.

My opinion is that sex offenders of the violent type (not the 16 yo boy who has consentual sex with his 14 yo gf) should never see the light of day again.

As to within a marriage, I am really torn. Part of me says prosecute with the exact same criteara as raping a stranger and then lock him away and never let him out. Another part says a different standard shoud apply. I really am undecided here.

I still think adultery should bring the death penalty.


Adultery should bring the death penalty? That's exaclty how the laws of the Old Testament were. Now, I could take the road of mercy and say that Jesus prevented a stoning of an adulterer. Or, I could take the road of the Law and say that by the Law of Sin, she should be stoned.

Which is it? The Law of Sin, or Mercy?

Here, in America, are we to create and/or support such a law? The unsaved, unforgiven, yes, they are under the Law.. yet.. I am not sure that the death penalty would be right, since we are one nation under God. I mean , what of mercy? That woman in the Bible, was she born-again? Maybe not. Maybe so, yet.. think about it...

Jesus did say, "He who has not sinned, let him cast the first stone."

If anyone can throw stones, it's Jesus Christ.. yet, having that power, He was meek, in that He sacrificed Himself for all of everyone's sins.

Anyhow... it'd surely be interesting to have such a law here in the U.S. If it was enforced, we'd see less people divorced, and probably, less people getting married. How about a law against fornication AND adultery, and the punishment would be death?

No AIDS. No children out of wedlock. No broken homes... ahh but where is mercy in this?



rayofson -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 6:57:30 PM)

This thread is a very interesting read. [sm=comp02.gif]



Sekira -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/11/2006 6:58:56 PM)

I am ashamed of you, Sc1t0r

You think it is a husband's right to force sex from an unwilling wife?

It is not righteous for a husband to even demand sex from an unwilling wife verbally, let alone force the issue physically.

Paul, who had all authority from heaven to know what food was clean and unclean to eat, did not eat meat sacrificed to idols in front of young believers. He knew it was not sinful to eat such food, but in order to protect them from their own conscience, he would not even eat it in front of them himself, let alone force them to eat it.

How can you think it is ok for a husband to hold their wife down, all the while she is screaming and kicking and crying, and penetrate her?

I admit there is the possibility for abusing this phrase to the damage of some marriages, but does that mean that forcing sex in marriage is righteous?

You ask any woman if she would rather be punched in the face or raped, I bet all (or nearly all) would say punch me anyday before you rape me.

Is it ok to punch your wife in the face?

I am so sick of christian men destroying the witness of the church by totally abusing these verses...

1 Corinthians 7 (NIV)
4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command.

Funny how we read the first two verses but ignore the last one. I don't see anywhere in there "If your wife is withholding sex, you can force her physically" I don't even see "If your wife is withholding sex, you can demand it from her verbally" I don't see either of those ideas anywhere in the bible. What I do see is this...

Ephesians 5 (NIV)
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

What? Husbands are to submit to their wives as well as wives submit to their husbands? Ever heard of mutual submission, pal? How about this one...

Ephesians 5 (NIV)
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

If it turns out your wife is withholding sex without justification, remember these verses...

1 Peter 3 (NIV)
7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Colossians 3 (NIV)
19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

Also read Ephesians 4 regarding unity in the spirit through gentleness, patience and love. If it is important for the body of Christ, how much more so for each marriage within the body, how much more for each marriage bed?

Notice how I'm not including any of the commandments for wives? That is because it isn't the husband's job to play spiritual policeman and blow the whistle on every failing their wife has. Work on YOU, let your wife worry about herself.

Anyone who reads Sc1t0r's post and is tempted to sin against your wife, you would do better by looking at your own behaviour and seeing what you may have done to break intimacy with your wife. A wife never denies sex for no reason. If it turns out you are blameless, it does not excuse rape. If your wife is sinning by denying you sex (I think many such denials are justified, but some aren't), do not sin even worse by raping her.

Do not even repramand her, instead reach out, love, comfort, sacrifice of yourself, deny your needs and wants for the sake of your precious one, that God gave to you.



DaveW -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/12/2006 7:43:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sekira

1 Corinthians 7 (NIV)
4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command.

This is somewhat OT but the concession was the "except by mutual consent" brief abstainance for prayer (some mss add "and fasting"). As a high ranking pharasee Paul was well aware of the rulings of Hillel and Shammai on this very question. Shammai said the period of abstainance should be limited to 2 weeks and Hillel, grandfather of Paul's mentor Gameliel, said only one week. Neither of these first century bc rabbis liked the idea at all and only allowed it as a concession to those who demanded it.



DaveW -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/12/2006 7:49:58 AM)

As to the withholding sex, Hillel and Shammai (and by virtue of his training) viewed married sex differently than the tone of these discussions. Sex was seen as a wife's right and a husband's responsibility. The Mishnah (compilation of the Jewish oral tradition/Law) finished about 300 ad listed minimums for sex depending on the husband's profession. If the occupation did not involve hard physical labor or involve much travel, it was daily. If a wife did not receive the minimum listed, she could sue her husband to change professions to one with a higher minimum or have a bet din (local court of rabbis) order him to either satisfy her more often or give her a divorce.

Here we are talking about husbands demanding THEIR satisfaction, and taking it by violence which turns the underlying understanding of the biblical authors on its head.



kernsfamily -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/12/2006 11:35:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

In the women's folder there is a thread on what should be the punishment for marital rape. THe current consensus is that it should be the same as rape by a stranger.

Guys, what do you think about this?

Do you think marital rape exists, and should it be a crime?

What should the punishment be?


Yes...I think it can occur...and it does...

BUT, that puts innocent husbands in a tight spot.
What better way for a wife to 'get back' at a husband....or, the wife realizes its a sympathetic way out of a marriage that she doesn't want to be in....or to be malicious, and you can't be more malicious than to put out a "false" rape accusation....rapists are almost always assumed guilty until proven innocent....and even then, they are looked at "differently"....PLUS, the burden on the accused would be almost insurmountable....how do you prove HER wrong?

Next time you're having "intimate" relations with your wife, could that be evidence AGAINST you?

And, don't think it can't happen to you.....stuff like that happens all the time.



Sekira -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/12/2006 12:51:48 PM)

DaveW I see your point now.

My question is this... what recourse does a man have if his wife denies him sex for (what he percieves) too long a time?

I understand that in a perfect world with a perfect marriage each partner would never deny their spouse's request. We do not, however, live in a perfect world. Not only do women routinely deny their husbands sex, but men routinely ask for sex in an uncaring way or during a difficult time (and the same also applies to men denying their wives and women asking for sex without care, etc)

Is it sin for a woman to deny her husband sex, if he hurt her so bad emotionally that the thought of sex feels like an attack?

Sex is very intimate, and so it should be. This, however, means that it is also very difficult to do with someone you feel seperated from, hurt, abused, or ignored.

In every marriage, there needs to be gentleness, and you absolutely need to view your spouse through God's eyes, as His precious child.

From a strictly legalistic standpoint, a man could claim he is wronged every time he asked for sex and was denied, even if he asked 8 times a day, or if he asked her right after he put her down in front of others, or asked while she was recovering from some physical or emotional illness or trauma. Does this promote unity? I will go one further even. If a man tries everything he can think of to provide for his wife's emotional, basic physical, spiritual, social, and intellectual needs, yet she still refuses to have sex with him, would standing up and lecturing her and pointing the finger and telling her how bad she is for sinning against him this way promote unity? Wouldn't it be better to forget your request and earnestly seek to discover your wife's pain and help heal it or at least comfort her during it?

There is probably a lot that could be said along the lines of "wives, get over yourself, God was gracious enough to give you a husband, do not sin against God or your husband by being bitter about every little thing and withholding sex because of it, etc, etc, etc" But that isn't for us as men to decide, nor would it seem sincere. It would be seen as a hypocritical manipulation to get more sex, and very self serving. If God needs to convict your wife of something, He will.

Seen from a purely practical point of view, why do something that doesn't work? I can tell you from experience that using pressure, manipulation, reprimands, or downright judgement towards your wife will not work most of the time, and if it does, then it doesn't do anything to sweeten her disposition towards you in regards to sex or even in her general regard for you. What is the deffinition of insanity? Doing the same behaviour and expecting different results.

So I would say if you feel you are being wronged, the best response is to gently love your wife and be there for her sacrificially, and Pray. Pray for her but also pray for yourself, that God would reveal to you if you are not justified in your feelings, and that God would reveal to you in the spirit what your wife will not discuss in person. If your conscience is clear that you have tried both of these things, and you feel you should say something to your wife, then do so gently, and without a judgemental tone. I would do this only occasionally, not each time you ask for sex and are denied. Reassure her you love her and want to do your part to improve things, instead of putting the burden to improve completely on her.



buckifn -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/12/2006 1:19:17 PM)

In God's eyes I don't think "marital rape" is possible...our bodies belong to our spouse ..and if the relationship has reached the point that one of them feels sexual relations is rape it is time to rexamine the relationship because something is clearly out of sync with what God intended between a husband and wife. To say a man having sex with his wife is the same as having sex with a stranger is undermining God's Word..a married couple would never be classified as 'strangers" in God's eyes.



DaveW -> RE: marital rape... (7/12/2006 2:25:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: buckifn

In God's eyes I don't think "marital rape" is possible...our bodies belong to our spouse ..and if the relationship has reached the point that one of them feels sexual relations is rape it is time to rexamine the relationship because something is clearly out of sync with what God intended between a husband and wife.

I agree on the latter but disagree on the former. If a man takes his wife against her will with violence, what would you call it besides rape?

And I am sure it is not just about denyal. It is more about the control and the violence. I have seen domestic violence. I have seen battered women who have had bones broken when their husbands used them for punching bags. I think the sexual violence is in the same category as this, just a different manifestation.

And if it is NOT rape, what is it?



zamdad -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/12/2006 5:13:48 PM)

quote:

BUT, that puts innocent husbands in a tight spot.
What better way for a wife to 'get back' at a husband....


I've seen this argument used a couple of times now, that women can use rape as a means to get even with or destroy men. If this is such a concern, perhaps the relationship is not a good one to begin with. It's apparent that Christ is not in the marriage where fear of harm or allegation exists.

I suppose this is another good reason to abstain from sex until marriage so that you can be sure the person you are marrying is someone who will love honor and cherish you. Someone where trust is not an issue.



kingdom1111 -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/12/2006 9:00:22 PM)

Rape is rape, married or not! If she says "no" and we as men force them physically to have sex it is rape period! Also a husband who raped his wife should be treated the same as ANY rapist would!! Go to jail do not pass go!



buckifn -> RE: marital rape... (7/15/2006 3:32:02 PM)

Dave
I can't answer your question.."if a man takes his wife against her will with violence, what would you call it besides rape" without knowing what you mean when you say "using violence"

You brought up domestic violence and used terms "broken bones" "using women as punching bags" and if you are referring to that behavior then of course there is no way I think any person, male or female should put up with such treatment. That is a crime and people who do things like that should be arrested. If a spouse did that to their mate I certainly hope it would be the last time they were ever close enough to allow them to do it again.



zamdad -> RE: marital rape... (7/15/2006 3:59:57 PM)

quote:

You brought up domestic violence and used terms "broken bones" "using women as punching bags" and if you are referring to that behavior then of course there is no way I think any person, male or female should put up with such treatment.


It seems that our tendency is to focus on the behavior. Yet, behavior requires thought before hand. Abuse takes all forms. There is more verbal/mental/emotioanl abuse out there than you can shake a stick at. Those who suffer physical violence often suffer greater emotionally at the hands of the person who says they love them. And, it works both ways.



Tlosick -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/15/2006 11:10:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

In the women's folder there is a thread on what should be the punishment for marital rape. THe current consensus is that it should be the same as rape by a stranger.




Women's folder you say? Which forum would that be? A search in She Says produced nothing.

Where did you get your information?



DaveW -> RE: Punishment for marital rape (7/17/2006 1:03:29 PM)

you can find their thread HERE.



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