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Salvation and Catholicism - 4/11/2005 1:42:18 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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How does the Catholic teaching on salvation compare with evangelical Christianity?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/11/2005 7:56:51 PM
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gracewalk
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It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event.
Evangelicals teach salvation is being personally regenerated in Christ and personally receiving His life in us where He resides in us always through the Spirit. By this act we are baptized by the Spirit into the church, the body of Christ. Man made institutions may require water baptism as an outward sign of that which has already happened in the believers life.
This is a very simplisctic answer needless to say..
YBIC
_____________________________
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/11/2005 9:54:58 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gracewalk
It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event.
Evangelicals teach salvation is being personally regenerated in Christ and personally receiving His life in us where He resides in us always through the Spirit. By this act we are baptized by the Spirit into the church, the body of Christ. Man made institutions may require water baptism as an outward sign of that which has already happened in the believers life.
This is a very simplisctic answer needless to say..
YBIC
Dear gracewalk,
Although there is a community aspect to salvation, Catholics are "regenerated" one at a time just like everyone else. We believe that Baptism is the outward sign of the inward work of God. In the case of some, it is the actualization of what they already desired. For others, it is the act by which they are brought from separation to communion with God and His people. It is God's work and command, not man's.
Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/12/2005 7:04:47 PM
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Sleeker
Posts: 9
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From: Cardboard Box Down By the River
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gracewalk
It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event.
Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/12/2005 9:56:38 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sleeker
quote:
ORIGINAL: gracewalk
It seems in the catholic tradition salvation comes by becoming joined to the organized church. Salvation is a corporate event.
Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would.
Dear Sleeker,
One does not gain salvation by being a Roman Catholic, explicitly or implicitly. Non-Christians may not gain salvation by acting how a Roman Catholic would. Salvation for everyone comes only by the grace of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ. While Catholics believe that Christ's saving work is realized though the Sacraments, and that non-Catholics are members of the One Church however separated, our salvation is God's work in us, not ours in Him.
If non-Christians are saved, it is only due to God's desire to accomplish His own will that none be lost. The Church recognizes God's freedom to act. The late Pope John Paul II, of happy memory, addressed the issue quite well in "Dominus Jesus."
None of this should be interpreted to mean that the Catholic Church believes in universalism.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/15/2005 10:42:42 PM
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Sleeker
Posts: 9
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Cardboard Box Down By the River
Status: offline
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quote:
One does not gain salvation by being a Roman Catholic, explicitly or implicitly. Non-Christians may not gain salvation by acting how a Roman Catholic would. Salvation for everyone comes only by the grace of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ. While Catholics believe that Christ's saving work is realized though the Sacraments, and that non-Catholics are members of the One Church however separated, our salvation is God's work in us, not ours in Him.
I'm not going to have a discussion over whether Catholics are "right" or not. I'm merely saying what a Catholic's position is.
quote:
If non-Christians are saved, it is only due to God's desire to accomplish His own will that none be lost. The Church recognizes God's freedom to act. The late Pope John Paul II, of happy memory, addressed the issue quite well in "Dominus Jesus."
None of this should be interpreted to mean that the Catholic Church believes in universalism.
I never said that the Catholic Church believes in universalism. What I said was that anybody, no matter what the person's religion was, can be saved, but it's definitely doesn't mean that everybody will. By the way, it's Dominus Iesus.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 6:25:07 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sleeker
quote:
One does not gain salvation by being a Roman Catholic, explicitly or implicitly. Non-Christians may not gain salvation by acting how a Roman Catholic would. Salvation for everyone comes only by the grace of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ. While Catholics believe that Christ's saving work is realized though the Sacraments, and that non-Catholics are members of the One Church however separated, our salvation is God's work in us, not ours in Him.
I'm not going to have a discussion over whether Catholics are "right" or not. I'm merely saying what a Catholic's position is.
quote:
If non-Christians are saved, it is only due to God's desire to accomplish His own will that none be lost. The Church recognizes God's freedom to act. The late Pope John Paul II, of happy memory, addressed the issue quite well in "Dominus Jesus."
None of this should be interpreted to mean that the Catholic Church believes in universalism.
I never said that the Catholic Church believes in universalism. What I said was that anybody, no matter what the person's religion was, can be saved, but it's definitely doesn't mean that everybody will. By the way, it's Dominus Iesus.
quote:
Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would.
Dear Sleeker,
You said this, "Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would."
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
(That was your cue, Mike)
I added the bit about universalism to clarify my post, not in response to yours.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 8:05:29 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2611
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Faith alone?
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 8:47:46 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Faith alone?
John
Dear John,
Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 9:14:20 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2611
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Faith alone?
John
Dear John,
Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes.
I'm sure after a view posts we'd be neck deep in the RCC's doctrine of salvation via works... Faith alone means just that, faith alone...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 1:20:07 PM
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Sleeker
Posts: 9
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Cardboard Box Down By the River
Status: offline
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quote:
You said this, "Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would."
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Read the interpretations. Pope John Paul II said the third interpretation is right (Dominus Iesus).
Also, Roman Catholics believe that faith and good works are needed, and that one usually brings about the other. Read the section of "What You Must Do to Be Saved" here.
_____________________________
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 1:54:16 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Faith alone?
John
Dear John,
Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes.
I'm sure after a view posts we'd be neck deep in the RCC's doctrine of salvation via works... Faith alone means just that, faith alone...
John
Dear John,
You are right, we would be neck deep. However, faith alone doesn't even mean faith alone to most Protestants. A faith that is never alone is not faith alone.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 2:52:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2611
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Faith alone?
John
Dear John,
Depending on what you mean by "faith alone," yes.
I'm sure after a view posts we'd be neck deep in the RCC's doctrine of salvation via works... Faith alone means just that, faith alone...
John
Dear John,
You are right, we would be neck deep. However, faith alone doesn't even mean faith alone to most Protestants. A faith that is never alone is not faith alone.
So much for, "She(RCC) teaches that we are saved by faith."
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 7:43:08 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear John,
Saved by faith does not equal saved by faith alone.
Saved by faith alone does not equal faith without work.
Faith and works does not equal saved by works.
Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 8:59:54 PM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
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quote:
So much for, "She(RCC) teaches that we are saved by faith."
John
I sincerely doubt the RCC teaches we are saved by faith, or "faith alone" - as that is unscriptural.
We are, however, "saved" by GRACE - even non Catholics.
Nevertheless, it is STILL unscriptural to be saved by "faith alone" since faith without works is dead - if it is a dead faith - then (as scripture says) how can it save?
More importantly, GOD looks upon the heart and at our motivations - if we are moved to serve God and perform good works out of our love for HIM - will that still condemn us?
Read Acts 10 - let's think about those works Cornelius performed. When was he "saved"?
What did Jesus say about giving someone a glass of water in his name?
What happens to those who did not DO the WORKS of charity Jesus speaks about?
Were they "saved" by faith or where they cast away for not DOING the works he named?
Finally, if one is "saved" by FAITH (alone) then doesn't our "faith" itself become a "work"?
No, it is Grace which saves us, it is Grace that moves our faith and it is ONLY Grace which gives us the requisite amount of faith (lest any should boast) that moves us to have our being in, and perform our "works" for - HIM.
In Christ, By Grace
Meep meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 11:08:56 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meep meep
quote:
So much for, "She(RCC) teaches that we are saved by faith."
John
I sincerely doubt the RCC teaches we are saved by faith, or "faith alone" - as that is unscriptural.
We are, however, "saved" by GRACE - even non Catholics.
Nevertheless, it is STILL unscriptural to be saved by "faith alone" since faith without works is dead - if it is a dead faith - then (as scripture says) how can it save?
More importantly, GOD looks upon the heart and at our motivations - if we are moved to serve God and perform good works out of our love for HIM - will that still condemn us?
Read Acts 10 - let's think about those works Cornelius performed. When was he "saved"?
What did Jesus say about giving someone a glass of water in his name?
What happens to those who did not DO the WORKS of charity Jesus speaks about?
Were they "saved" by faith or where they cast away for not DOING the works he named?
Finally, if one is "saved" by FAITH (alone) then doesn't our "faith" itself become a "work"?
No, it is Grace which saves us, it is Grace that moves our faith and it is ONLY Grace which gives us the requisite amount of faith (lest any should boast) that moves us to have our being in, and perform our "works" for - HIM.
In Christ, By Grace
Meep meep
Dear Meep meep,
I am not saying that the Catholic Church's view is justification by faith alone, or that works are not involved in some way. I shall let the Council of Trent speak for itself.
"And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace."
Whatever else may be involved, justification is by faith, not works. That is a very Scriptural position. It is therefore a very Catholic one as well.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/16/2005 11:32:04 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sleeker
quote:
You said this, "Roman Catholics do not believe that as you say it. You can gain salvation by being Roman Catholic explicitly or implicitly, which means non-Christians can even gain salvation by acting like how a good Roman Catholic would."
I am saying that Roman Catholics, or any kind of Catholic, do not believe that. The rightness or wrongness is not the issue. There are too many who believe that Catholics say one is saved by works. The Catholic Church does not teach that. She teaches that we are saved by faith.
Read the interpretations. Pope John Paul II said the third interpretation is right (Dominus Iesus).
Also, Roman Catholics believe that faith and good works are needed, and that one usually brings about the other. Read the section of "What You Must Do to Be Saved" here.
Dear Sleeker,
What is your source for the bit about "acting like a good Roman Catholic would"?
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/17/2005 12:38:43 PM
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Sleeker
Posts: 9
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Cardboard Box Down By the River
Status: offline
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quote:
Dear Sleeker,
What is your source for the bit about "acting like a good Roman Catholic would"?
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
Don't over analyze this. EENS says that all who gain salvation only do it by the Roman Catholic Church, whether implicit or explicit. So if you aren't a good Roman Catholic, but you act like one, then you will still get salvation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus
_____________________________
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/17/2005 2:10:03 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sleeker
quote:
Dear Sleeker,
What is your source for the bit about "acting like a good Roman Catholic would"?
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
Don't over analyze this. EENS says that all who gain salvation only do it by the Roman Catholic Church, whether implicit or explicit. So if you aren't a good Roman Catholic, but you act like one, then you will still get salvation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus
Dear Sleeker,
Please, for the benefit of onlookers, please don't use acronyms that are obscure. (EENS= extra ecclesia nula salus = outside of the Church there is no Salvation) That would be an interesting thread, to discuss that idea from a Christian versus Non-Christian point of view, but I digress. . .
It isn't overanalyzing anything to refute the belief that people are saved by acting like something they are not. Catholics are saved by faith in Christ, and by obedience to His commands, just like everyone else.
You post gives the impression that one doesn't have to believe, one just needs to act like someone who believes. Nonsense!!!
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/17/2005 4:29:06 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1981
Status: offline
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quote:
Nevertheless, it is STILL unscriptural to be saved by "faith alone" since faith without works is dead - if it is a dead faith - then (as scripture says) how can it save?
Would you be happier if we said "by living faith alone" (dead faith being in reality no faith)?
Whenever you reduce salvation to a formula you are bound to fall into error.
Salvation is NOT a formula but a Person. A Divine Person -- the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who possess Chirst within their spirits are saved. Those who profess Christ and have all the formulas down pat are not necessarily saved. And those who depend on their obedience to the RCC and sacramentalism are simply deluded.
So what is "salvation"? Salvation is God's GIFT of eternal life by His grace -- God's gift of Himself (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) -- to the one who believes that Christ died for his sins and rose again for his justification, repents, and receives Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior by faith.
Since salvation is God's gift to the sinner, and constitutes "eternal life", those who are born again by the Holy Spirit cannot lose their salvation, though from time to time they may lose their fellowship with God because of sin in their lives. Those who wilfully and persistently sin and will not repent after salvation face premature death.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 4/17/2005 5:24:42 PM
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Sleeker
Posts: 9
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Cardboard Box Down By the River
Status: offline
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quote:
Please, for the benefit of onlookers, please don't use acronyms that are obscure. (EENS= extra ecclesia nula salus = outside of the Church there is no Salvation) That would be an interesting thread, to discuss that idea from a Christian versus Non-Christian point of view, but I digress. . .
Which is why I gave the link...
quote:
It isn't overanalyzing anything to refute the belief that people are saved by acting like something they are not. Catholics are saved by faith in Christ, and by obedience to His commands, just like everyone else.
It it the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that in order to gain salvation, you need to receive God's mercy and get his grace. We get his grace by faith and good works, but we still do not earn it. We get it by his mercy. Having faith and doing good works are what Roman Catholics should do, and therefore, with God's mercy, they will be saved. However, even if one isn't Roman Catholic, but behaves like one should, they too can get salvation by God's mercy.
quote:
You post gives the impression that one doesn't have to believe, one just needs to act like someone who believes. Nonsense!!!
I use the word "act" to mean "behaves." I do not use it to mean "pretend."
_____________________________
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
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