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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/9/2009 5:49:26 PM
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Epistemological
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
What could the price be but to heal the harm? If I come to your house and break your television, would you be satisfied with my receiving some number of lashes, having my television broken, or by me replacing your television? Undoubtedly, you are a good-hearted person and would prefer the latter. However, an evil, angry sort of person might actually prefer one of the other options. What does this tell us about God's likely preference?
If I owe you a large sum of money and find it difficult or impossible to pay, you have the option to forgive the debt or you can require payment. You might not care who pays it, but you can't say you have forgiven that debt if you also receive payment in full. Those two notions are contradictory. Yet the Bible talks a lot about God forgiving us; indeed, Jesus indicated we are like God when we forgive others. Is our forgiveness of others based on retribution being paid to us by someone, or are we just letting the debt go?
These possibilities seem mutually exclusive. You seem to be saying that God forgives us freely even as you say God does not forgive us, instead requiring payment in the form of a new television (a new man?).
Does God forgive us freely, and if so, what is the relationship between repentence and forgiveness?
Does God forgive us only if we repent, and if so is it truly forgiveness?
Is the purpose of repentence simply for us to give up sin, and thus, does it have little to do with forgiveness as such?
_____________________________
"I know, Lord, why You utter no answer. You are Yourself the answer. Before Your face all questions die away; what other answers would suffice?" - C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 1/27/2010 9:36:47 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 851
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quote:
How does the Catholic teaching on salvation compare with evangelical Christianity?
Catholics believe in the sacramental principle: that we are saved through baptism and the other sacraments. Evangelicals do not. Right?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 1/29/2010 1:39:46 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
How does the Catholic teaching on salvation compare with evangelical Christianity?
Catholics believe in the sacramental principle: that we are saved through baptism and the other sacraments. Evangelicals do not. Right?
Right Evangelicals believe;
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And
(Rom 10:9,10) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And
(Eph 2:8-10) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Keeping the Sacriaments are consindered to be under obedience to God's Word, but not the causation of Salvation.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 1/30/2010 12:34:47 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 851
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
Right Evangelicals believe;
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
You know that Catholic Evangelicals believe that, too, right?
quote:
Keeping the Sacriaments are consindered to be under obedience to God's Word, but not the causation of Salvation.
"this prefigures baptism which saves you now" 1 Pt 3:18-21, Mt 16:16)
"he saved us by the bath of rebirth"
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 1/30/2010 1:34:31 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 1/30/2010 12:49:37 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7249
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
You know that Catholic Evangelicals believe that, too.
Catholic Evangelicals = oxymoron.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 1/30/2010 1:33:10 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 851
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quote:
Catholic Evangelicals = oxymoron.
how so?
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 1/30/2010 1:39:27 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 1/30/2010 7:15:48 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1783
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
Catholic Evangelicals = oxymoron.
how so?
Here's how so according to your own words:
quote:
Catholics believe in the sacramental principle: that we are saved through baptism and the other sacraments. Evangelicals do not. Right?
Sacramentalism is a blatant denial of Gospel truth and the all-sufficiency of Christ Himself. Sacramentalism adds to the Gospel man-made requirements for salvation. That is how so.
And don't forget that the RCC has a penchant for misapplying and misinterpreting Scripture to suit it's own dogmas. So your quoted Scriptures will need to be properly interpreted in the light of all Gospel truth, not Catholic dogma.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 1/31/2010 8:42:35 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 851
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
Here's how so according to your own words:Catholics believe in the sacramental principle: that we are saved through baptism and the other sacraments. Evangelicals do not. Right?
That's the Biblical teaching 1 pt 3:18-21, Titus 3:5.
quote:
Sacramentalism is a blatant denial of Gospel truth and the all-sufficiency of Christ Himself.
Actually the Church teaches that everything comes from the grace of Jesus Christ. If God wan't to save people through various material means--including especiall the Sacred Scriptures--what is wrong with that?
quote:
Sacramentalism adds to the Gospel man-made requirements for salvation.
how so? If that's true, then why did Paul say that the gift of God was in Timothy through the imposition of his (Paul's) hands? (Cf. 2 Tim 1:6).
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 1/31/2010 10:44:12 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/1/2010 3:58:19 PM
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Thursday_GKC
Posts: 141
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quote:
Sacramentalism is a blatant denial of Gospel truth and the all-sufficiency of Christ Himself. Sacramentalism adds to the Gospel man-made requirements for salvation. That is how so.
quote:
Article XIII: Of the Use of the Sacraments.
1] Of the Use of the Sacraments they teach that the Sacraments were ordained, not only to be marks of profession among men, but rather to be signs and testimonies of the will of God 2] toward us, instituted to awaken and confirm faith in those who use them. Wherefore we must so use the Sacraments that faith be added to believe the promises which are offered and set forth through the Sacraments.
3] They therefore condemn those who teach that the Sacraments justify by the outward act, and who do not teach that, in the use of the Sacraments, faith which believes that sins are forgiven, is required.
quote:
Article VIII: What the Church Is.
1] Although the Church properly is the congregation of saints and true believers, nevertheless, since in this life many hypocrites and evil persons are mingled therewith, it is lawful to use Sacraments administered by evil men, according to the saying of Christ: The Scribes and 2] the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, etc. Matt. 23:2. Both the Sacraments and Word are effectual by reason of the institution and commandment of Christ, notwithstanding they be administered by evil men.
Just thought I would throw a wrench into the wheels and offer these quotes. They were not written by RCs but rather are taken from the Augsburg Confession. Sacraments are not a Catholic v. Protestant issue as so many want to make it out to be.
God bless you all in your continued dialogue.
_____________________________
Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashion. -GK Chesterton
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/1/2010 8:56:55 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Sacraments are not a Catholic v. Protestant issue as so many want to make it out to be.
"Sacramentalism" is the belief that salvation can be obtained through the sacraments. See above as to what Patricius said. This is a false Catholic belief my friend. Protestants may use the term "sacrament" but do not believe in sacramentalism.
Salvation is by grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ. Period. But the RCC denounces this truth.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/1/2010 9:06:17 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
That's the Biblical teaching 1 pt 3:18-21, Titus 3:5.
These passages do not teach sacramentalism. I will not take the time to give you an exposition, but you may certainly refer to Matthew Henry's commentary on the whole Bible found online at Crosswalk under Bible Study Tools.
quote:
Actually the Church teaches that everything comes from the grace of Jesus Christ. If God wan't to save people through various material means--including especiall the Sacred Scriptures--what is wrong with that?
You need to study the doctrine of imputed righteousness to understand what's wrong with sacramentalism. Of course since the RCC has blatantly rejected this doctrine, you will probably not bother.
quote:
how so? If that's true, then why did Paul say that the gift of God was in Timothy through the imposition of his (Paul's) hands? (Cf. 2 Tim 1:6).
This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic under discussion. This belongs with spiritual gifts and the gift of apostles.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/1/2010 11:04:17 PM
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Thursday_GKC
Posts: 141
Joined: 1/23/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Sacraments are not a Catholic v. Protestant issue as so many want to make it out to be.
"Sacramentalism" is the belief that salvation can be obtained through the sacraments. See above as to what Patricius said. This is a false Catholic belief my friend. Protestants may use the term "sacrament" but do not believe in sacramentalism.
Salvation is by grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ. Period. But the RCC denounces this truth.
Obviously you are not familiar with the Lutheran teaching on their sacrament of baptism:
quote:
IV. The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.
First.
What is Baptism?--Answer.
Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God's command and connected with God's Word.
Which is that word of God?--Answer.
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Secondly.
What does Baptism give or profit?--Answer.
It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. *Luther's Small Catechism
quote:
In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives, and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever. *Luther's Large Catechism
quote:
Article IX: Of Baptism.
1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.
3] They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism. *Augsburg Confession
You should be careful with generalizations Ezra as there are a lot of Protestants out there with a lot of different beliefs. Unless, of course, your argument is that Lutherans are not Protestant...
quote:
Salvation is by grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ. Period. But the RCC
denounces this truth.
I will let the Council of Trent speak for itself:
quote:
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.
For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.
God bless you Ezra
< Message edited by Thursday_GKC -- 2/1/2010 11:29:39 PM >
_____________________________
Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashion. -GK Chesterton
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/2/2010 12:25:30 AM
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Saved34
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I hold Luther to be a man of God, and his commentary on Galatians have blessed me beyond belief but Luther is flat out wrong on Baptismal regeneration. Salvation is by Grace through Faith + nothing.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
To add anything else to the Gospel is to be under the Anathema of God. Baptism and all of the sacraments have there place but Salvation is simply trusting Jesus Christ and his finished work.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
_____________________________
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/2/2010 2:39:54 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1783
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Thursday,
Regarding Lutheran belief's on baptism, I will admit that I did not think that they would actually have such a false doctrine on baptism (I have not spent much time investigatiing their beliefs). Therefore you are correct in that they too (as distinct from Reformed Theology) hold to a Roman Catholic concept.
quote:
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification,
This quote from the Council of Trent shows the sophistry and casuistry of the Catholic church.
Note the words bolded. On one hand they claim that justification is by faith, but on the other hand, as you go through their teachings on the sacraments and good works, they also teach that salvation is by faith + works + sacraments + Mary's intercession + prayers for the dead + who knows what else.
This is not the biblical doctrine of imputed righteousness whatsoever, and the Catholic Church rejects this key doctrine by adding to the perfect finished work of Christ for our redemption. And even then you are expected to end up in Purgatory (and go to them for so-called indulgences). What a travesty of Gospel truth!
This is precisely why Catholic-Evangelicals is a complete oxymoron. If you believe the true Gospel, you must reject Catholicism.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/2/2010 5:20:33 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 851
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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quote:
"Sacramentalism" is the belief that salvation can be obtained through the sacraments. See above as to what Patricius said. This is a false Catholic belief my friend. Protestants may use the term "sacrament"
This is disputing about words rather than concepts. Lutherans have the same understanding of Baptism as Catholics. Accordnig to the Bible, even dirt can be used to communicate grace and become holy (Josh 5:15).
quote:
but do not believe in sacramentalism.
Does it deny God's power to send His Son through water and blood of Mary, as Scripture says?:
"this is the one who came by water and by blood"
Salvation is by grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ. Period
That's Catholic teaching! And the finished work of Christ also includes our cooperation. As Paul says:
"if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation"
"I complete in my body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ on behal fof the Church"
quote:
That's the Biblical teaching 1 pt 3:18-21, Titus 3:5.
These passages do not teach sacramentalism. I will not take the time to give you an exposition, but you may certainly refer to Matthew Henry's commentary on the whole Bible found online at Crosswalk under Bible Study Tools.
You want me to go by extra-Biblical traditions rather than the clear teaching of teh Holy Spirit (in Eph 5:26, Gal 3:27) and Jesus? Is there somewhere in the Bible that says that God does not have the power to use people and materials in his salvific work? Then why did God do so contantly in the Old Covenant even, including the use of Holy Oil? (Cf. Ex 30:22-33). Then are you saying that the Bible--printed, translated, and preached by humans--is not involved in saving people?
I think it's quite otherwise. God loves matter and intercessors (1 Tim 2:1etc). See for example Acts 8:17, where the Holy Spirit is given through the laying on of Apostolic hands.
quote:
You need to study the doctrine of imputed righteousness
I have. But the Calvinist version on imputed righteousness is anti-Biblical, like "Sola Scriptura" (which contradicts many verses including 2 Tim 3:16-17, which says that we need teaching, correction, and training in righteousness); and "Baptism is just a symbol" (which is nowhere in Scripture). The Bible teaches that we grow in actual holiness and are filled with all the fulness of God (Eph 3 and 4) through recieving the Body and Blood of Jesus (Heb 8:1-4, Jn 6:48-64).
for there are three that testify: the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood"
We believe "Forensic justification" denies the power of God.
quote:
to understand what's wrong with sacramentalism. Of course since the RCC has blatantly rejected this doctrine, you will probably not bother.
The historic Christian Church believed in true justification, rather than "forensic justificaiton". (The Church also teahes that we can do nothing to earn our salvation or even respond to God without the blood of Jesus . In that, the Christian Council of Trent agrees with the reformers.) Because he knew that we could become by grace truly worthy (Mt 10:38) of Him, Jesus said:
"be ye perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect"
and again the Spirit says,
"sin is to have no power over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace"
quote:
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification,
You say that's from the Holy Spirit's Council of Trent? It does sound like it, and that is indeed what the Bible teaches. As Scripture says,
"you need faith and endurance to be saved"
and again:
"work out your salvation with fear and trembling"
quote:
Note the words bolded. On one hand they claim that justification is by faith,
Correct. There is much evidence that Luther and the Church were using the word "justified" in two different senses, so that they actually agreed tjat we aer saved initially by faith alone. But I think that Luther was more accurate on this point than later followers of those called reformers.
quote:
but on the other hand, as you go through their teachings on the sacraments and good works, they also teach that salvation is by faith + works + sacraments + Mary's intercession + prayers for the dead + who knows what else.
This is teh same as in protestantism, actuallly. The Scriptures teach that we are saved purely by the grace of Jesus, which includes works, as James 2:21-25 emphasized repeatedly. Non-:Lutheran Protestantism likewise includes works in our salvation, but has an ingrained prejudice against the Biblical teachings about Baptism, Jn 6:48-64, Heb 6:1-2/or Acts 8:17 (Confirmation), and other passages abuot how God uses material things--such as the Bible and preaching and hands (Acts 19:6)--to convey his grace. BTW, have you ever noticed how all protestant communities do more than just read the Bible?
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 2/3/2010 10:35:35 AM >
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 2/2/2010 11:37:00 PM
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Thursday_GKC
Posts: 141
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Thursday,
Regarding Lutheran belief's on baptism, I will admit that I did not think that they would actually have such a false doctrine on baptism (I have not spent much time investigatiing their beliefs). Therefore you are correct in that they too (as distinct from Reformed Theology) hold to a Roman Catholic concept.
quote:
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification,
This quote from the Council of Trent shows the sophistry and casuistry of the Catholic church.
Note the words bolded. On one hand they claim that justification is by faith, but on the other hand, as you go through their teachings on the sacraments and good works, they also teach that salvation is by faith + works + sacraments + Mary's intercession + prayers for the dead + who knows what else.
This is not the biblical doctrine of imputed righteousness whatsoever, and the Catholic Church rejects this key doctrine by adding to the perfect finished work of Christ for our redemption. And even then you are expected to end up in Purgatory (and go to them for so-called indulgences). What a travesty of Gospel truth!
This is precisely why Catholic-Evangelicals is a complete oxymoron. If you believe the true Gospel, you must reject Catholicism.
God bless you Ezra. I affirm Sola Fide and am not RC so I will let the RC's explain further their beliefs on salvation. That way we will avoid any possible butchering of it on my part of it.
Pax tecum Ezra
_____________________________
Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashion. -GK Chesterton
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