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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/1/2008 10:06:20 AM
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texastweet
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quote:
In typical Benedict XVI fashion, Benedict will be reaching out to to the US Church and attempting to establish and foster a greater relationship, however - at his Masses, no lay Eucharistic Ministers will be allowed, even though the numbers of Catholics attending will be in the tens of thousands. Its like he is reaching out to embrace the US, while slapping it on the back of the hand at the same time.
Interesting stuff.
Dog,
Welcome back. This is the start of a long list of articles taking digs at the Pope as they try to contrast Benedict with JPII.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/1/2008 7:25:57 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1144
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Welcome back. This is the start of a long list of articles taking digs at the Pope as they try to contrast Benedict with JPII. Thanks. A little Lenten break from the boards to re-focus on God and Church.
I don't mind the criticisms of Benedict. He is what he is, and he is definitely not JP II. I am reading a book of his homilies right now about the Apostles and the early Church, and the man clearly has some grey matter between his ears. I have been a Catholic for over 40 years, and I found his perspective to be fresh, without being innovative (or erronoeous). Very insightful stuff and sensitively written/translated to English.
It will be an interesting ride for the next few years with him at the helm.
_____________________________
I, then, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/1/2008 8:05:30 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 352
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Welcome back. This is the start of a long list of articles taking digs at the Pope as they try to contrast Benedict with JPII. Thanks. A little Lenten break from the boards to re-focus on God and Church.
I don't mind the criticisms of Benedict. He is what he is, and he is definitely not JP II. I am reading a book of his homilies right now about the Apostles and the early Church, and the man clearly has some grey matter between his ears. I have been a Catholic for over 40 years, and I found his perspective to be fresh, without being innovative (or erronoeous). Very insightful stuff and sensitively written/translated to English.
It will be an interesting ride for the next few years with him at the helm.
Did you have a good Easter Doghouse?
I've looked into some of the books of Joseph Ratzinger that Peter has. God Is Near Us and What It Means To Be a Christian. There is one book not written by him but has to do with his religious order called the Benedictine Handbook, which Peter likes. For myself, I would like to ask you a question about Pope Benedict. You said in the above post, in your words, he has some gray matter between his ears. What do you mean by gray matter?
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica and Peter
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/2/2008 2:44:17 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
Kelman,
"We have no idea what the others believe from the context of the passage. " That is what I said so don't put words in my mouth. The apostles are often "clueless" at times about what Christ is talking about and He has to often explain things more than once. Whoa....how am I putting words into your mouth?....believe me I wouldn't dream of doing that. What does the apostles - all the apostles - sometimes being clueless have to do with anything?
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I know of no "lead" elders who claim they are infallible and consent to be called by the name reserved for God Himself. Well they just act like it. The point is elders do not see themselves as infallible nor does anyone else see them as such - just as Peter did not see himself as infallible.
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Really though, infallibility is another topic that can be discussed later but if one still clings to "pebbles" there is little hope of seeing infallibility. Rather, if one still clings to Scripture there is no hope of seeing infallibility or apostolic succession.
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but, regardless, the fact remains when an apostle died - he was not replaced - the apostles had no successors. SO are you saying Judas didn't really die? Don't you even bother to keep up with what's written in these posts? I said they replaced Judas but did NOT replace James when he was martyred. Are you deliberating trying to obfuscate?
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And from our friend Clement in 80AD.... Which means exactly nothing. He actually says of the apostles "if" they should die. In any event, of course, men succeeded bishops, deacons, elders. This was what the letter from the church at Rome to the church at Corinth was about - "orderly" succession since the Corinthian church had deposed some presbyters. The offices didn't remain empty upon the death of the holders especially since church government was by a plurality of elders. But, this isn't about bishops, deacons and elders - it's about popes.
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So I would ask, did the Church stop building? You need more than a foundation in order to have a house. Of course, the church didn't stop building - Christ is still building His church today. The design of God for the governmental running of the church, which can be seen in Scripture, was for the apostles to lay down the solid doctrine and the pattern for the church's founding, then turn over to the elders and deacons the actual running of the church while they faded away.
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No one ever denied that Peter was a chief apostle.
So you say, but the word chief means nothing in your view and hence it is an empty qualifier/title. Empty to you perhaps because you must imbue "chief" with some primacy of official authority and jurisdiction which is contrary to all of Scripture.
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Since the keys represent the binding and loosing of man, it was Peter to whom Christ gave the privilege of being first to bring the message of salvation. Oh, I see now...suppose that is one way to look at it even though most commentaries are along these lines.. I see you keep right on coming with the jokes - "most" commentaries, indeed. Two at random....
From a commentary by Gill... By the kingdom of heaven is meant the Gospel..."The keys" of it are abilities to open and explain the Gospel truths,...and who[Peter] was the first that made use of the keys of evangelical knowledge with respect to both, after he, with the rest of the apostles,...Otherwise these keys belonged to them all alike;...
From Barnes commentary.....he will give him the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he means that he will make him the instrument of opening the door of faith to the world--the first to preach the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles...The only pre-eminence, then, that Peter had, was the honour of first opening the doors of the gospel to the world.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/2/2008 10:57:55 AM
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mcleod
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Say I got in the mail yesterday, U.S. News & World Report. And on the front cover is a picture of The Pope Benedict XVI. Which it has as a front title; On his first U.S. visit, can he calm his trouble Flock? I thought with him in charge that there wasn't any division in the RCC gatherings. So you guys are having a problem just like we protestant do.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/2/2008 12:07:54 PM
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texastweet
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believe me I wouldn't dream of doing that. What does the apostles - all the apostles - sometimes being clueless have to do with anything?
Well you've mentioned a couple of time that the apostles thought the same as Peter and all I am saying that you can't get that from Matt16.
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The point is elders do not see themselves as infallible nor does anyone else see them as such
You've mentioned several times that we are built on the teaching of the apostles...right. For whoever heard the Church heard Christ (Luke 10:16) right, and Christ cannot teach error. So the question should not be "where is infallibility in the Bible," but where in the Bible is the idea that Christ’s Church would teach error?
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Don't you even bother to keep up with what's written in these posts? I said they replaced Judas but did NOT replace James when he was martyred. Are you deliberating trying to obfuscate?
The death of James has little bearing on your point. Do you deny that the replacement of Mathias in a passage specifically demonstrating Church structure/organization is a biblical example of succession? Not to metion Pauls handing things off to Timothy. Then turn around and try to use the mentioning of the death of James in the context of a narritive concerning Church persacution as a counter to Mathias. Apples and oranges.
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Which means exactly nothing.
Oh sorry, I forgot that you only use passages from the fathers that you think support your position.
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But, this isn't about bishops, deacons and elders - it's about popes.
Excuse me, the pope is a bishop. So everyone gets a successor except your unofficial leader??
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Empty to you perhaps because you must imbue "chief" with some primacy of official authority
How can you lead or be a chief without any authority to do so?????? On the other hand you seem to equate authority with the techniques of Gingas Kahn.
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I see you keep right on coming with the jokes - "most" commentaries, indeed. Two at random
...that fail to mention the clear link to Is:22. And mine or not Catholic scholors.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/2/2008 6:21:28 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 730
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
You've mentioned several times that we are built on the teaching of the apostles...right. For whoever heard the Church heard Christ (Luke 10:16) right, and Christ cannot teach error. So the question should not be "where is infallibility in the Bible," but where in the Bible is the idea that Christ’s Church would teach error? The Bible doesn't ever allude to Christ's church ever teaching error. Yet, it describes Peter teaching error at least once, And since the RCC has taught error quite consistently, that statement of yours proves the RCC isn't Christ's Church.
Look at the whole concept of confession... That practice blatantly denies the words of Jesus Christ Himself. That would pretty much qualify as teaching error, and if the first pope to realize this was going on didn't take immediate steps to correct it, he was undeniably fallible. So is every single pope since then, and that's just ONE of many examples of RCC error...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 4/2/2008 6:31:13 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/2/2008 8:21:26 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 680
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From: Glen Burnie, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
You've mentioned several times that we are built on the teaching of the apostles...right. For whoever heard the Church heard Christ (Luke 10:16) right, and Christ cannot teach error. So the question should not be "where is infallibility in the Bible," but where in the Bible is the idea that Christ’s Church would teach error? The Bible doesn't ever allude to Christ's church ever teaching error. Yet, it describes Peter teaching error at least once, And since the RCC has taught error quite consistently, that statement of yours proves the RCC isn't Christ's Church.
Look at the whole concept of confession... That practice blatantly denies the words of Jesus Christ Himself. That would pretty much qualify as teaching error, and if the first pope to realize this was going on didn't take immediate steps to correct it, he was undeniably fallible. So is every single pope since then, and that's just ONE of many examples of RCC error...
Wait, confession denies Jesus?
If anything it would seem to affirm a belief in His promise to the Apostles. Do not the Scriptures say, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). How then are the Apostles supposed to know what sins to retain and what to forgive if they don't hear the confession of the penitent?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/2/2008 8:29:16 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Say I got in the mail yesterday, U.S. News & World Report. And on the front cover is a picture of The Pope Benedict XVI. Which it has as a front title; On his first U.S. visit, can he calm his trouble Flock? I thought with him in charge that there wasn't any division in the RCC gatherings. So you guys are having a problem just like we protestant do.
Of course the RCC lacks unity !
There is a billion Catholics and about that many popes !
I do not say this lightly or cavalierly-I am serious here.
Claiming unity and practicing unity are vastly different.
Talk to Catholics to determine if they are universal...
You will discover that they DEFINITELY are not unified !!!
Are 100 % of RC pro-life ?.......NO
Are 100% of RC anti-euthanasia ?.......NO
Are 100% of RC anti-homosexual ?.......NO
Do 100% believe ALL teachings of RCC ?.......NO
Do 100 % support the pope ?.......NO
Conclusion: Catholic church is NOT catholic !!!
Individualism is rampant in the RCC !!!
The pope is probably a good man, but that's all.
Few if any RC follow him and all the RC teaching 100 %.
_____________________________
A swine may see an acorn under a tree, but he cannot see a star.
It is a destructive addition to add anything to Christ.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/3/2008 2:11:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
believe me I wouldn't dream of doing that. What does the apostles - all the apostles - sometimes being clueless have to do with anything?
Well you've mentioned a couple of time that the apostles thought the same as Peter and all I am saying that you can't get that from Matt16.
No verse of Scripture stands on its on – we compare scripture with scripture to arrive at truth. Besides, it was you who brought up that the apostles were sometimes "clueless" which has nothing to do with the issue.
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You've mentioned several times that we are built on the teaching of the apostles...right. For whoever heard the Church heard Christ (Luke 10:16) right, and Christ cannot teach error. It doesn't say "whoever heard the Church heard Christ". Although, by inference these are members of the church who are ministers of the Gospel. He that "hears" the Gospel - what they preach - hears Christ. Christ did not institute most of the doctrines of RC; they are not the Gospel, therefore, those who hear RC do not hear Christ.
In Luke 10:16, we see Christ sending the seventy disciples to preach while the Apostles stayed to be instructed of Him. This was obviously a temporary assignment to prepare these towns before Christ ministered there (Luke 10:1). In any event, there is no indication whatsoever of some sort of "infallibility" laid upon a hierarchy of the church.
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So the question should not be "where is infallibility in the Bible," but where in the Bible is the idea that Christ’s Church would teach error? No, in fact, it is a perfectly legitimate question to ask. Still, your question is handled readily in the Bible. An excellent illustration God gave us is that of Peter as he taught erroneous doctrine by example.
In James 3:1-2, men are cautioned to be very careful if they seek to be teachers of the Gospel because of the propensity to sin and be error prone. To think errant teachers and doctrine did not infiltrated the Christian church is naive. We need only look, for one instance, to the seven churches of Revelation to see how early on this occurred.
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Don't you even bother to keep up with what's written in these posts? I said they replaced Judas but did NOT replace James when he was martyred. Are you deliberating trying to obfuscate? The death of James has little bearing on your point. More humor, I would suppose. Of course, it has bearing on my point that we see no evidence of "succession" in Scripture since James, one of the Twelve, was NOT replaced, proving succession is not taught in Scripture.
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Do you deny that the replacement of Mathias in a passage specifically demonstrating Church structure/organization is a biblical example of succession? The Bible denies it, so, yes, I will also. Judas was part and parcel of the Twelve, chosen and ordained by God. What he did was prophesied and fulfilled and now another prophecy was to be fulfilled - that of Psalm 109:8. And since we know thereafter that no other Apostle was EVER named, even after one of the Twelve died, we can be assured God does not teach "apostolic succession".
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Then turn around and try to use the mentioning of the death of James in the context of a narritive concerning Church persacution as a counter to Mathias. Apples and oranges. Rather, you demonstrate an egregious case of "apples and oranges" as you attempt to use the fulfillment of OT prophecy as justification for your church's doctrine. Especially, in light of the fact, the Apostles did not elect to replace one of the Twelve when he died proving beyond doubt there is no such thing as "apostolic succession".
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But, this isn't about bishops, deacons and elders - it's about popes. Excuse me, the pope is a bishop. Sigh...there are many bishops but only one pope, is that not correct? Hence, we have the name of the thread.
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Empty to you perhaps because you must imbue "chief" with some primacy of official authority How can you lead or be a chief without any authority to do so?????? Exactly as Peter and all of the NT demonstrated. He was outspoken and often brash; and, in fact, was privileged to be the first to bring the Gospel. We see Peter really was only one of the chief apostles. This is precisely why the Jews imprisoned him once they killed James.
< Message edited by kelman -- 4/3/2008 2:19:24 AM >
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/3/2008 10:24:48 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 730
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Wait, confession denies Jesus?
If anything it would seem to affirm a belief in His promise to the Apostles. Do not the Scriptures say, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). How then are the Apostles supposed to know what sins to retain and what to forgive if they don't hear the confession of the penitent? He didn't limit this to the apostles. This was to his disciples, of which I am one... I don't have to know anothers' sins, because they can go directly to Jesus with no mediator in between. Trying to say we have to have a priest do this for us denies the truth of the Good News... Actually kinda makes it bad news...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/3/2008 11:30:07 AM
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mcleod
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So when you go and spill your guts out at person and tell him your secret sins. The gentleman says to you "your sins are forgiven". Am I on the wrong planet? But didn't Jesus the Christ say that and it inflame the anger of the priest that day. For they said that only God can forgive sins. So Jesus was saying that he was God. Which is true.
Now when you are doing confession to that guy behind the screen. He says those words. He has brought himself up to the level of God. The Creator of everything. But excuse me but there is only one and in the Bible it states there is only one. Not some human who has a backwards collar on him. Thus the pope was is one of these characters who did this type of an act.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/3/2008 11:51:04 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 680
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Glen Burnie, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
So when you go and spill your guts out at person and tell him your secret sins. The gentleman says to you "your sins are forgiven". Am I on the wrong planet? But didn't Jesus the Christ say that and it inflame the anger of the priest that day. For they said that only God can forgive sins. So Jesus was saying that he was God. Which is true.
Now when you are doing confession to that guy behind the screen. He says those words. He has brought himself up to the level of God. The Creator of everything. But excuse me but there is only one and in the Bible it states there is only one. Not some human who has a backwards collar on him. Thus the pope was is one of these characters who did this type of an act.
"‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23)
It seems to me that the Lord is giving the authority to the Apostles to forgive sins in His name. And that's what happens in the sacrament of confession. The priest forgives in the name of Jesus. Not in the priest's name, in Jesus' name, using the authority passed down from the Apostles.
One can argue that an Apostle is not an office and isn't something that can be passed on, but if one does hold that it was an office and it can be passed on to successors, then the rights and duties associated with said office should be passed on as well.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/3/2008 4:53:07 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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"He breathed on them"
We are only told twice in all of scripture that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. This shows the importance of the establishment of the sacrament.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/3/2008 6:38:38 PM
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ChaChynga
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THE POPE is MANS idea, and not one I-ota ca be claimed to be biblical in nature, so NO there would be no reason to have a POPE sitting in christs Stead unless your an antiChrist that is all into making God a Mockery.
_____________________________
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/3/2008 8:09:09 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 680
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Glen Burnie, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChaChynga
THE POPE is MANS idea, and not one I-ota ca be claimed to be biblical in nature, so NO there would be no reason to have a POPE sitting in christs Stead unless your an antiChrist that is all into making God a Mockery.
Prove it.
:)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 11:55:24 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
"He breathed on them"
We are only told twice in all of scripture that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. This shows the importance of the establishment of the sacrament.
Pax,
Mary
Your kidding me right? I watch your religion and my I say religion on the EWTN. There is so much hocus- pocus in your meeting I don't know where you get all of the kissing a table and kissing a book. Though it smells good, waving a metal pot in the air and all around the front of the building that is filled with incense.
Repeating prayers all of the time. When the religious people of the day that Christ walked the face of the earth. They would go to get details in repeating prayers out of books. As a lot of ortodox Jews still do today. The creator of everything said that was a no-no.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 12:03:08 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 680
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Glen Burnie, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
"He breathed on them"
We are only told twice in all of scripture that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. This shows the importance of the establishment of the sacrament.
Pax,
Mary
Your kidding me right? I watch your religion and my I say religion on the EWTN. There is so much hocus- pocus in your meeting I don't know where you get all of the kissing a table and kissing a book. Though it smells good, waving a metal pot in the air and all around the front of the building that is filled with incense.
Repeating prayers all of the time. When the religious people of the day that Christ walked the face of the earth. They would go to get details in repeating prayers out of books. As a lot of ortodox Jews still do today. The creator of everything said that was a no-no.
Have you ever looked into the reasoning why we do these things?
We kiss the Bible during our worship because it is the Word of God. And as far as repeating prayers goes, The Lord Himself gave us one of the most repeated prayers in all of Christendom. Even as a Protestant I remember reciting that prayer many times. It's the Our Father.
We have a one stop thread for this topic though, but I will note that the Lord condemned VAIN repetitious prayers, not all repetitious prayers. :)
The incense symbolizes our prayers rising up to the Lord.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 2:56:32 PM
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Papa-san
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Much of the ritual found in Catholicism is hold-over from Levitical ritual. Understandably, it was near impossible for lifelong Jews to suddenly stop the rituals that had been kept since Moses. Even though Jesus had fulfilled the Law, humans naturally resist change. That's part of the reason Peter faltered in dealing with Gentiles when some Hebrews showed up. Even though Paul spanked him, there's no reason to think it didn't continue. Same with all the other stuff... Peter was susceptible to a fear of what other people thought, and that comes from habit and social mores...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 4/4/2008 3:05:06 PM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 3:48:34 PM
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PeterD
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Happy Easter Papa-san!
Papa-san if you were to personally meet Pope Benedict what would you talk about with him if he gave you that opportunity?
Peter
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 3:52:44 PM
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PeterD
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In Church History has their ever been a Christian Catholic Pope who was first Jewish like the Apostle Peter? Meaning from Israel.
Peter
< Message edited by PeterD -- 4/4/2008 4:00:01 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 5:11:49 PM
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PeterD
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Joined: 4/27/2007
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1 Corinthians 13
The Way of Love
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
For all the Popes did and do they see in a mirror dimly?
...Do all the Popes also know in part; or do they know fully, even as Paul is fully known so also are
the Popes fully known as well?
Are the Popes face to face with Christ Jesus right now?
Is Pope Benedict living this life in Christ Jesus in Love as Paul has written in 1 Corinthians 13?
These are the thing's I would like to ask him in Christ's Love if I had that opportunity.
Peter
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 5:37:30 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1144
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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I am of the opinion that any man who would give up a family of his own and children and spend an entire adult life in serving his Church has adequately demonstrated the kind of "love thy neighbor" charity that Jesus is speaking of when He speaks of this type of "Christian love" in Scriptures.
I am doubting that very few lay people are in a position to question the fidelity, of those who live the religious life, to the Church and to God. It is a sacrifice none of us choose to make.
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I, then, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 4/4/2008 5:55:02 PM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
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quote:
"‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23)
It seems to me that the Lord is giving the authority to the Apostles to forgive sins in His name. And that's what happens in the sacrament of confession. Two errors come immediately to mind with this interpretation. First, if, in fact, it was true that man, instead of God, had the power to forgive sin it would violate Scripture where it says only God can forgive sin. We see absolutely no scriptural evidence the Apostles either forgave or retained sins, they understood this was never the intent of Jesus' words. They never said to anyone, as Christ said "thy sins are forgiven thee"----never ever did they do this. So, apparently, they were extraordinarily disobedient to Christ in their refusal to do so, if one is to believe RC doctrine.
Second, if, in fact, this power was bestowed upon the Apostles by Jesus Christ, it is not possible that a mere mortal man could bestow it upon another mere mortal man.
Frankly, to believe that a man can forgive another man's sins comes close to blasphemy since God is clear only He can forgive sins. It is indicative of using Scripture to advance doctrinal belief and tradition - no matter what the cost.
Through the preaching of the Apostles, those who came to believe on Jesus had their sins forgiven. That is all these verses are teaching. Very similar to what Christ taught in Mat 16.
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"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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