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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/1/2009 8:31:09 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Catholicandloveit,
Let me show one more time with Scripture;
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife.....
You are not to forbid a man (even a deacon) from having a wife.........at all!
Let him be........it is that simple.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife.....
There is nothing that claims you are to forbid a bishop from having a wife......no matter what his age is.
Here is a man making a defense for his case;
This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me.
Don't we have the right to food and drink?
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?
Do you want to sit in judgment of deacons and bishops it is fine to do so.
But let me remind you......there are certain things you have no right to sit and judge them for.
They have the right to fair pay, they have the right to eat food, they have the right to drink, they have the right to sleep, they have the right to clothes, they have the right to shoes, they have the right to medical attention, they have the right to pray, they have the right to shelter, and they have the right to take along a believing wife.
They also have the right to give up any of those things freely and accept any of those things freely.
You are not to bind a man to something that is above and beyond what he has the right to have.
That means even though your people love to do it......they have no legitimate right to have a man vow to give up what he has every right to have.
He should remain free to give and receive freely.
It is that simple.
KJB
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/1/2009 9:39:42 PM
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SwissGuard
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Catholicandloveit,
Let me show one more time with Scripture;
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife.....
You are not to forbid a man (even a deacon) from having a wife.........at all!.......
Show me the scripture where it says the apostles cannot forbid it at a later date.
You are reading something into the text that is not there.
The apostles and the successors have the authority to bind & loose, to make religious teachings binding. The Bibe DOES say THAT. You are just reading protestant bias into the text.
_____________________________
"I too hope in this short reign to be a man of peace." - Pope Benedict XVI
http://www.catholic.com/
http://www.ewtn.com/
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/1/2009 9:56:21 PM
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KingJamesBond
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SwissGuard,
quote:
Show me the scripture where it says the apostles cannot forbid it at a later date.
Apostles frobid it later, no.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry.............
So.....you want to forbid marriage do you?
What am I to suppose you are doing....giving heed to Scripture or giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons?
Do not forbid marriage between a man and a woman.
Just leave a man and woman alone in regard to marriage and mind your own affairs.
He who finds a wife finds a good thing, And obtains favor from the LORD.
quote:
The apostles and the successors have the authority to bind & loose, to make religious teachings binding. The Bibe DOES say THAT. You are just reading protestant bias into the text.
I protest to deviation from clear Scripture and if that is biased, so be it.
Repeat the following message really slow;
Let....the....deacons....be....the....husbands....of....one....wife.....
Don't we have the right to food and drink?
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?
Yes they do......so stop placing people in bondage.
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
KJB
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/1/2009 10:21:43 PM
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Lurker
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KingJamesBond, what is your opinion on the words of Our Lord who said, "Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).
Who are the ones who have renounced marriage for the kingdom of God? What is their role in the Church to be?
If one insists on a literal interpretation of the rules that a deacon/priest be a husband then should they not also have multiple children? After all, the scriptures state that they must "must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s Church?" and it's quite clear that among the requirements is the fact that he must have children, after all how can he keep them submissive?
And why would Paul then write in numerous times about how he wishes more believers were single like him? Most notably in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 we find the following quotes:
quote:
"Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (7:27-34).
and
quote:
"I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another" (7:6-7) (emphasis mine).
Here we see how Paul exhorts people to stay single, and that after going on about the roles of a husband in marriage, he says that he's offering these rules as a concession because he would rather people remain single. If he sees celibacy as being preferred, why would he suddenly decide that priests/deacons need to be married as it seems you insist.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/1/2009 10:26:39 PM
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Lurker
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Also, do keep in mind again. Nobody is forced to become a priest/deacon. They can certainly choose to remain laity and get married if they like. :)
Also, what is your opinion of the group of widows who took vows to be unmarried Paul mentioned in 1 Timothy 5? When talking about them he says, ""But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge" (5:11–12). So it seems that he has no qualms about a group taking vows of celibacy, but does warn them not to enroll people who might chafe at the vow because they might end up breaking it and incur condemnation. What do you think?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/1/2009 11:26:20 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Lurker,
quote:
KingJamesBond, what is your opinion on the words of Our Lord who said, "Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).
Do not forbid them to marry and do not compel them to marry.
Let them freely accept or reject marriage without making some eternal vow on the matter to anyone.
quote:
Who are the ones who have renounced marriage for the kingdom of God? What is their role in the Church to be?
Well, we are all to serve each other whether married or not.
Lets just hang it all right here where Jesus made it clear;
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the first and great commandment. "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
People have enough on their plates with those. If anyone at all married or single keeps those two perfectly, I dont know what to say.
quote:
If one insists on a literal interpretation of the rules that a deacon/priest be a husband then should they not also have multiple children? After all, the scriptures state that they must "must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s Church?" and it's quite clear that among the requirements is the fact that he must have children, after all how can he keep them submissive?
How about just letting a man marry a woman or not, allowing the man and woman to be fruitful and multiply or not, and give them all the blessings of actual love in action?......'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
quote:
And why would Paul then write in numerous times about how he wishes more believers were single like him? Most notably in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 we find the following quotes:
Well, that is great......it is called "liberty". He did not say we are to make all people like him as clones or something.
......by way of concession, not of command.......
We are not to command or require people to vows of celibacy.
Anyways.....why dont you include all of the text?
1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.
2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.
It is not a command to make people vow a life of celibacy.
7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.
9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
The fact he presented was that all people are not like he is.
If you ordain a deacon and have obligated him to make a vow of celibacy and later he burns with passion for a woman........what have you really done to the man?
You have placed a mere man, a human being between a vow that should have never had to of been made and his burning passion.................and all for what?
Some tradition?
KJB
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Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/1/2009 11:33:17 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Lurker,
quote:
Also, do keep in mind again. Nobody is forced to become a priest/deacon. They can certainly choose to remain laity and get married if they like. :)
I understand that.
But why require a vow when a vow is not required?
What does it do........make your heart beat faster knowing you can require a man to make a vow to be a deacon? What does it accomplish? Does it make you happier when you can obligate a deacon to make such a vow? Does it quench some strange feeling inside you? Is there some special thrill?
I dont get it.
Why not require the guy make some other vow for some other tradition that tickles your fancy?
Why celibacy?
Why not have the guy vow to abstain from any evil thoughts........ever?
Yeah.......and if he has one evil thought he has to come tell everybody he has broken his vow.
For crying out loud......these guys are human beings not androids.
It makes no sense at all.
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/2/2009 9:49:33 AM
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Lurker
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So then, why do you think that Paul has no problem with the group of widows taking vows of celibacy in 1 Timothy 5? Paul encourages it and simply suggests a simple rule that they should avoid the younger widows who might still want to get married.
Now as to why I didn't include the previous verses in 1 Corinthians 7, I did it mainly for brevity. But whereas you see the emphasis on verse 2, I think that the emphasis should more properly be on verse 7.
quote:
I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
It seems that Paul believes that celibacy is a gift from God. Not everyone is called to be celibate, and as we can see in 1 Timothy 5, there should be some rules to help avoid situations where people might violate their vows, but the vows themselves don't seem to be a problem to Paul.
And there's strong biblical sound reasons to encourage religious leaders to be celibate and unmarried. Continuing on in 1 Corinthians 7 we see, "Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (7:27-34)
By remaining unmarried they can devote themselves to the affairs of the Lord and how to please the Lord. The married person has to focus not only on pleasing God, but his spouse as well. His attention is divided. Would it not be reasonable that there might be some who are called to serve the Lord as priests/deacons might be encouraged to stay celibate so they can devote themselves more fully to the affairs of the Lord? Why do you think that they should instead divide their interests between the Lord and their wives?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/2/2009 10:31:20 AM
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SwissGuard
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
But why require a vow when a vow is not required?
It is required because the Church has the authority to make it required. You know, that whole "binding & loosing" authority that Jesus gave to the Church. I know that Jesus' commands sort of get in the way of your opinions, but thats the way ot goes.
_____________________________
"I too hope in this short reign to be a man of peace." - Pope Benedict XVI
http://www.catholic.com/
http://www.ewtn.com/
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/2/2009 7:22:46 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Lurker, SwissGuard,
Here is an answer to your posts;
I think in every Roman Catholic congregation every human being that has been divorced should be told that they are a scandal for breaking their vows. I think the pope should be the guy to say it especially if he has the power to bind and loose. It should be on big screen tv for everybody to see.
I think you all should keep your system exactly the way it is and I am glad that protestants are able to protest such an unbiblical and mixed up system.
It is good and fitting that men are able to serve others in Christian congregations without needing to bow down to your man made tradition that requires unmarried men to make celibacy vows to serve in the church.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry.......
KJB
_____________________________
Vote out Socialism/Communism and modern day "Robbing Hoods".
Constitutional principles like those found in the Constitution Party will help to build a "Constitutional" Republican Party.
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 6/3/2009 10:21:26 AM
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Lurker
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Again, what about the group of widows who took vows to remain unmarried in 1 Timothy 5? Is that not an example of a religious order having a requirement of celibacy? And does Paul condemn them for forbidding them to marry? Why is it that you seem to continually gloss over this Scriptural example of a celibate group that is accepted by St. Paul as being just fine? Shouldn't he condemn them for forbidding members of their group to marry?
So if this tradition of accepting celibacy for members of religious orders is in the bible, how exactly is it a man made tradition?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/23/2009 5:16:24 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
Again, what about the group of widows who took vows to remain unmarried in 1 Timothy 5? Is that not an example of a religious order having a requirement of celibacy? And does Paul condemn them for forbidding them to marry? Why is it that you seem to continually gloss over this Scriptural example of a celibate group that is accepted by St. Paul as being just fine? Shouldn't he condemn them for forbidding members of their group to marry?
So if this tradition of accepting celibacy for members of religious orders is in the bible, how exactly is it a man made tradition?
That is an interesting point. Moreover, our Lord is clear that some men and women are called to celibacy. Cf. Mt 19:12.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/23/2009 5:42:22 PM >
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/23/2009 6:21:46 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
Again, what about the group of widows who took vows to remain unmarried in 1 Timothy 5? Is that not an example of a religious order having a requirement of celibacy? And does Paul condemn them for forbidding them to marry? Why is it that you seem to continually gloss over this Scriptural example of a celibate group that is accepted by St. Paul as being just fine? Shouldn't he condemn them for forbidding members of their group to marry?
So if this tradition of accepting celibacy for members of religious orders is in the bible, how exactly is it a man made tradition?
That is an interesting point. Moreover, our Lord is clear that some men and women are called to celibacy. Cf. Mt 19:12.
The passage teaches that for some, being eunouchos isn't a choice due to birth defects, isn't a choice for some because others have forced it upon them by the removal of testicles and by rules, with only some choosing to be so by their own conscience.
The point is still that it is individual choice that is admirable, and nowhere in the New Testament is it required that a preacher, teacher, elder, deacon, presbyter, or church leader of any sort be celibate.
Obligatory celibacy is not taught in the New Testament.
This is yet another example of the Roman Catholic Church thumbing its nose at God's Word and making up their own doctrines that are contrary to Scripture. In fact, the Bible speaks to this very issue, indicating that the forbidding of marriage is an indicator of the presence of deceitful spirits and teachings of demons:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. - 1st Timothy 4:2-3
There is no excuse for forcing a man to be celibate and doing so renders many of them into an unnatural state, causing them to violate their own consciences, thus causing them to not only to sin, but to struggle through life sexually frustrated.
That isn't admirable, it is sad.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/23/2009 8:40:49 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
Obligatory celibacy is not taught in the New Testament.
This is yet another example of the Roman Catholic Church thumbing its nose at God's Word and making up their own doctrines that are contrary to Scripture.
That's ironic, since God gave the Scriptures and their Canon came to Christians through the Catholic Church, and I think the Catholic Church accepts the clear teachings of the Scriptures, even in regard to the condemnation of articifial birth control. It is interesting that the Catholic Church upholds the teaching against the sin of Onan (cf. Gen 38:9-10), and thus upholds married love and fertility, even while she promotes celibacy.
One might say this: that the Catholic Church has prohibited celibacy (i.e. the false celibacy called contraception) in marriage, even as all the protestant communions have encouraged it; and that She has kept and encouraged celibacy in its proper places (i.e. the presbyterate and convents, etc)
I think you would have a good point if men and women were forced into lives of consecrated celibacy. But it is a matter of choice. And since the Apostles and their successors (cf. Acts 1:20) were given the authority to bind and loose (cf. Mt 16:19), the whole Church can and must follow the Holy Spirit. In fact, the Scriptures don't teach that for all time presbyters can and should be married, since this was not the will of God.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/23/2009 9:16:45 PM >
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/23/2009 8:46:49 PM
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Doghouse
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...Wow...!
Who dredged up this old thread?
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/23/2009 8:58:09 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
...Wow...!
Who dredged up this old thread?
I did. I hope that's not bad. I was told we can activate the old threads, unless it has been closed.
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/24/2009 12:11:54 AM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
I think you would have a good point if men and women were forced into lives of consecrated celibacy. But it is a matter of choice.
This is a big problem. Men who God has called to be his ministers or presbyters (whatever word you want to use) have to either ignore that calling and live a life outside of God's will for it, or accept that calling and be forced into an unnatural state of celibacy, and still live a life outside of God's will.
Fortunately, the choice between priesthood and celibacy is a false dichotomy, since the Biblie implicitly commends church leaders who are married and with families. In fact, there are some things a human can never fully understand about God and His relationship to us and to His Son until they have actually been married and have children of their own.
quote:
And since the Apostles and their successors (cf. Acts 1:20) were given the authority to bind and loose (cf. Mt 16:19), the whole Church can and must follow the Holy Spirit. In fact, the Scriptures don't teach that for all time presbyters can and should be married, since this was not the will of God.
Obligatory celibacy is nowhere in the New Testament. Thus, the invention and enforcement of it is entirely man-made and ill-informed and obviously not the leading of the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/24/2009 8:40:45 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Fortunately, the choice between priesthood and celibacy is a false dichotomy, since the Bible implicitly commends church leaders who are married and with families.
..and there are married Roman Catholic Priests with wives and families...
Celibacy is a discipline embraced by those participating in the religious life, because they have chosen to fore-go marriage, and not have relations outside of it. The discipline of celibacy is promoted by Paul, who was himself unmarried. It can be implied that the "traveling" Apostles, like James, were also unmarried, as they were not likely to be dragging a wife and kids along as they performed their missions.
Since I can hide anonymously behind a username and an avatar, I will say that you can imagine the impossibility of traveling to the far reaches of the globe by sandal, dragging a wife along with you.... 
Do you suppose Paul was celibate, being that he was not married, or do you suppose that he engaged in hanky-panky, all the while preaching against that sort of thing?
quote:
Obligatory celibacy is nowhere in the New Testament. Thus, the invention and enforcement of it is entirely man-made and ill-informed and obviously not the leading of the Holy Spirit.
...but its covered in the OT. The unwed are not supposed to fool around...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 10/24/2009 8:49:16 AM >
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/24/2009 8:45:58 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
I did. I hope that's not bad. I was told we can activate the old threads, unless it has been closed.
I am just kidding around. There are several other "Catholic" threads that have not seen any action for a while.
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/24/2009 3:02:44 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
In fact, there are some things a human can never fully understand about God and His relationship to us and to His Son until they have actually been married and have children of their own.
It is true that Catholic priests are married and do have children of their own. Cf. 1 Cor 4:15. Apparently our Lord and Paul were able to understand God's relaationship to us without begetting children naturally.
It is true that there was no general discipline of priestly celibacy in the N.T., but neither do we find the N.T. Church going by the Scriptures alone. Cf. 1 Cor 11:2, 34; 2 Thes 2:15.
And neither do we find in Scripture anything against the Church's authority to bind such a discipline as priestly celibacy. Cf. Mt 16:19.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/24/2009 3:55:38 PM >
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/24/2009 4:10:01 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2842
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Can you guys explain to me who has to be celibate in the Roman Catholic church? Are you saying that priests don't have to take a vow of celibacy?
Also, when I write about "celibacy" I am obviously referring to no sex at all. When I refer to someone not having to be celibate, I am referring to sex within marriage. So no, I don't think any of the unmarried Apostles were "fooling around".
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/24/2009 5:15:08 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 969
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
Can you guys explain to me who has to be celibate in the Roman Catholic church? Are you saying that priests don't have to take a vow of celibacy?
A ministerial priest doesn't have to take a vow of celibacy. He already has chosen to make one in order to become a minister to begin with. However, some ministerial priests were already married when God called them to the priesthood, and so they were given a dispensation. (But some aren't given a dispensation, since they weren't called. Therefore, they aren't ministerial priests.)
Here is a short article which answers many questions related to celibacy and the priesthood in a short amount of space:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Celibacy_and_the_Priesthood.asp
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/24/2009 5:30:36 PM >
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RE: Priests, Nuns & Celibacy - 10/28/2009 9:07:32 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 969
Joined: 9/10/2009
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KJB wrote:
quote:
They also have the right to give up any of those things freely and accept any of those things freely.
You are not to bind a man to something that is above and beyond what he has the right to have.
I think it's a somewhat plausible argument which breaks down in favor of more correct and coherent Biblical interpretations. To me, one of the main tests of all Biblical interpretations is the course of Church history.
Church history clearly shows that the Church does have the right to bind presbyters to celibacy, who enter the presbyterate of their own free will.
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