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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/12/2005 12:11:22 AM
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S.Benedict
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The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/13/2005 3:04:32 AM
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On_Call_Clergyl
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The major problem with the detailed explanation printed above is that it is based on a false assumption.The Bible teaches that upon death we do not go to heaven but instead we remain in a sleep-like state until the rapture.At that time,the "dead in Christ" including the Virgin Mary. will be raised from their graves to meet Jesus among the clouds.Even Jesus did not go immediately to heaven after His death.When He met with His disciples,after being raised from the dead, He told them that He had not yet gone to His Father in heaven.
The statement contains a number of quotes from the Book of Revelation which describes post-rapture events.Only then will the saints it mentions be in heaven and none of us knows who will be selected for that assignment.Jesus,not man decides who He will take into heaven with Him.
It is totally unnecessary and un-biblical to have someone interceed on our behalf when we pray to God for ourselves.The Bible quotes that are used,refer to us praying to God on behalf of someone on earth.They do not refer to asking someone in heaven to talk to God about us.That instruction does not exist in the Bible.God is our Father and He wants to hear directly from His children,not from some substitute we pick to talk to Him.However what Protestants most object to is the many prayers that never mention the name of Jesus or God but only use the name of a dead human who will not enter heaven until Jesus returns to raise the dead in His holy rapture.Such prayers have to be deeply offensive to God.
You got a problem?Talk to your Father not some human who is sleeping awaiting the return of his Savior as the Bible clearly states.
_____________________________
BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.
Matthew 7:20
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/13/2005 8:34:37 AM
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superdave
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From: Atlanta, Georgia!
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Ok, If we are asleep until the day of judgement then why did Jesus say to the thief: "And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/13/2005 9:21:52 AM
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divinemercy
Posts: 47
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On Call:
quote:
we remain in a sleep-like state until the rapture
A. Saul conversed with Samuel(after Samuel was dead). 1 Samuel 28
Samuel(after he was dead) told Saul what would happen to him the next day (vs19)
B. There is no secret rapture.
had to edit to correct biblical passage
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/13/2005 10:51:46 AM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S.Benedict
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
We ask others to pray with or for us because Jesus said, "where three or more are gathered..." it's not about intercession as we believe Christ makes intercession for us and if we have Christ fulfilling that role, there's noone else better to do it.
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 11:49:43 AM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelleWe ask others to pray with or for us because Jesus said, "where three or more are gathered..." it's not about intercession as we believe Christ makes intercession for us and if we have Christ fulfilling that role, there's noone else better to do it.
Saints are not between me tp God - they are with me to God. They are just a lot closer and have demonstrated efficacy of receiving blessings of Grace from God (they seem to be in His favor), which I ask them to ask God for, for me.
Christ is the Chief Priest - the one mediator - the justifier - the bridge from us to Sanctity.
The subject at hand is not talkng about that mediation - it talking about those who pray with us, for us, as brothers and sisters, not as "go-betweens".
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 11:56:27 AM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelleWe ask others to pray with or for us because Jesus said, "where three or more are gathered..." it's not about intercession as we believe Christ makes intercession for us and if we have Christ fulfilling that role, there's noone else better to do it.
Saints are not between me tp God - they are with me to God. They are just a lot closer and have demonstrated efficacy of receiving blessings of Grace from God (they seem to be in His favor), which I ask them to ask God for, for me.
Christ is the Chief Priest - the one mediator - the justifier - the bridge from us to Sanctity.
The subject at hand is not talkng about that mediation - it talking about those who pray with us, for us, as brothers and sisters, not as "go-betweens".
meh. Then why are Catholics always saying "to". Maybe if everyone would just drop the word, "to" and start using the word, "with". People wouldn't have the misunderstanding that you are praying to a Saint. Doesn't that make sense? If I want my friend to pray with me, I don't say," O Saint Nikki, hear my prayer...blah blah blah". So the difference must be that the Saints you are praying with, are dead. Right? So why can't you say, " O Saint so-and-so...be with me as I pray this prayer to God:"
It sounds like the prayer goes out to the Saint...but then it's the Saint's job to bring the request/need to the Father; just confusing I guess.
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 12:12:57 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
meh. Then why are Catholics always saying "to". Maybe if everyone would just drop the word, "to" and start using the word, "with". People wouldn't have the misunderstanding that you are praying to a Saint. Doesn't that make sense? If I want my friend to pray with me, I don't say," O Saint Nikki, hear my prayer...blah blah blah". So the difference must be that the Saints you are praying with, are dead. Right? So why can't you say, " O Saint so-and-so...be with me as I pray this prayer to God:"
It sounds like the prayer goes out to the Saint...but then it's the Saint's job to bring the request/need to the Father; just confusing I guess.
Believe me - you are preaching to the choir here, sister.......
Think about the words of the "Hail Mary" prayer - "Holy Mary....pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" - nothing about me praying TO her. If anything - the prayer is to God - heard by Mary, due to her proximatey and asking for her to pray as well.
You get different answers on this depending on who you talk to - but I have a good analogy.
If I went to your congregation and asked them to describe "God" to me - how many would give me the "gray headed old man" description? The reason for this is that some of this stuff we learn because of how it was presented to us as kids, which sacrifices accuracy and depth for simplicity, interest and conciseness.
Some people just never grow their Faith beyond this childhood notion.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 12:14:33 PM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelleWe ask others to pray with or for us because Jesus said, "where three or more are gathered..." it's not about intercession as we believe Christ makes intercession for us and if we have Christ fulfilling that role, there's noone else better to do it.
Saints are not between me tp God - they are with me to God. They are just a lot closer and have demonstrated efficacy of receiving blessings of Grace from God (they seem to be in His favor), which I ask them to ask God for, for me.
Christ is the Chief Priest - the one mediator - the justifier - the bridge from us to Sanctity.
The subject at hand is not talkng about that mediation - it talking about those who pray with us, for us, as brothers and sisters, not as "go-betweens".
meh. Then why are Catholics always saying "to". Maybe if everyone would just drop the word, "to" and start using the word, "with". People wouldn't have the misunderstanding that you are praying to a Saint. Doesn't that make sense? If I want my friend to pray with me, I don't say," O Saint Nikki, hear my prayer...blah blah blah". So the difference must be that the Saints you are praying with, are dead. Right? So why can't you say, " O Saint so-and-so...be with me as I pray this prayer to God:"
It sounds like the prayer goes out to the Saint...but then it's the Saint's job to bring the request/need to the Father; just confusing I guess.
Dear Sadiebelle,
Most people in prayer don't make theological statements. They state their need to someone whom they think can help them. They don't tell them how to do it.
Still, you have a point about prayer that is thought out beforehand.
"As the people pray, so will they believe."
Eternal rest grant onto them, O Lord!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 2:20:16 PM
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bridgefin
Posts: 137
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From: Boca Raton, FL
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quote:
Then why are Catholics always saying "to".
There are two meanings to the word "pray" in English. We are all familiar with the meaning "to worhsip/adore/praise/etc. God". But that meaning probably flowed from the original meaning which was "to ask". That second meaning has mostly fallen out of favor though there are remnants of it around the legal system. If you ask a court for something the word used will be "I pray that the court will...".
Catholics continue to use the word "pray" in its perfectly valid meaning of asking a saint to do something. So, I pray to thee, Mary, asking you to please pray for me. Sometimes we will also ask a saint directly for favors that only God could provide. But, that is a shortcut and we know that a saint can't do anything without God being the power behind it. Should I ask Mary for grace or mercy I am using a short form of a prayer, but I am really asking her to pray that I receive those favors from God at her request.
God told us to ask one another to pray with and for us so we follow that directive found throughout Scripture.
In Christ, George
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 2:34:28 PM
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Heavyduty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
quote:
Then why are Catholics always saying "to".
There are two meanings to the word "pray" in English. We are all familiar with the meaning "to worhsip/adore/praise/etc. God". But that meaning probably flowed from the original meaning which was "to ask". That second meaning has mostly fallen out of favor though there are remnants of it around the legal system. If you ask a court for something the word used will be "I pray that the court will...".
Catholics continue to use the word "pray" in its perfectly valid meaning of asking a saint to do something. So, I pray to thee, Mary, asking you to please pray for me. Sometimes we will also ask a saint directly for favors that only God could provide. But, that is a shortcut and we know that a saint can't do anything without God being the power behind it. Should I ask Mary for grace or mercy I am using a short form of a prayer, but I am really asking her to pray that I receive those favors from God at her request.
God told us to ask one another to pray with and for us so we follow that directive found throughout Scripture.
In Christ, George
So prayer then does not necessarily equal "worship".
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 3:38:51 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
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Okay, so with all your answers included in this next question: Does praying to/with a Saint add anything to the prayer? Say, strength?
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 3:52:15 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
Okay, so with all your answers included in this next question: Does praying to/with a Saint add anything to the prayer? Say, strength?
One of the things the Church requires to "Canonize" a Saint (to instrcut that this person has met "the measure") is the efficacy of the relationship of this person to God in havng God answer their prayers - i. e., miracles.
So - when asking for a Saint to pray for our cause, we are recognizing the efficacy of that Saint and that Saint's Faith to accomplish what we cannot in our Faith.
We are not appealing to "strength" - we are appealing to deomstrable effectiveness. I posted this on the old site - if I am getting ready to travel by air on business (which I do not particularly enjoy post-9/11), I might PM you to pray to God for me for a safe journey. I might do this because in my distraction of packing and getting to the airport, checking in, going through security, I might not be in the frame of mind, nor have the time to properly request this protection from God. So I might ask you to do it on my behalf.
If, after 30 or 40 years of this routine, I was never involved in a mis-hap, no lost bags or stopped at security, I might come to understand that you may have a special closeness to God in regards to His granting the Grace of safe travel to someone like me. I might recommend that other travelers I know ask you for your prayers for them as they travel. They may tell others of their experience with the effectiveness of your prayers.
That's how you wind up being St. Sadiebelle - patron of harried travelers. This anecdote is more accurate in terms of describing how this works, in my opinion.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 3:54:39 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
That's how you wind up being St. Sadiebelle - patron of harried travelers. This anecdote is more accurate in terms of describing how this works, in my opinion.
*laughing-at-loud*
It's so cute when I say, "St. Sadiebelle" outloud. That was a great description. Thanks GoodMe. You're awesome.
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Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 3:59:49 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
*laughing-at-loud*
It's so cute when I say, "St. Sadiebelle" outloud. That was a great description. Thanks GoodMe. You're awesome.
You're welcome. I am chuckling - wondering what the icon might look like - you looking piously to the upper right with your hand clasped, as in prayer, with two little airplanes buzzing by behind you.....
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/14/2005 11:21:09 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
*laughing-at-loud*
It's so cute when I say, "St. Sadiebelle" outloud. That was a great description. Thanks GoodMe. You're awesome.
You're welcome. I am chuckling - wondering what the icon might look like - you looking piously to the upper right with your hand clasped, as in prayer, with two little airplanes buzzing by behind you.....
*wiping away tears* AHHHHHHHHH........
You are funny.  What is that Saint that lots of people have the statue of in their gardens??
Dear Sadiebelle,
Many people commonly have a statue of St. Francis of Assisi. I have one of St. Fiacre, the Patron Saint of Gardeners.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord.
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