|
Users viewing this topic:
Qtman
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 8:45:39 AM
|
|
|
patricius79
Posts: 595
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
|
MARY WROTE:
quote:
The way you see it they are both worship, however your view is not the view of all Christians, many myself included are fully capable of seeing the difference between, Latria, dulia, and hyperdulia.
I agree with you, Mary. But some people actually seem to believe that distinction is hypocrisy.
“Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits.”
For more of this article: “Praying to the Saints.” Catholic Answers. San Diego 2004;]
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Cf. Mt 22:32.
“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living”
The development of doctrine bears on the issue of prayer to the saints, as it does on the issue of the development of the Biblical Canon through the Papist Church:
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/canon.htm.
As Scripture says,
“The Kingdom of heaven is a like a mustard seed which grows into a large tree”.
“She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature.”
For a summary of our Lord Jesus’s teaching on this:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Can_Dogma_Develop.asp
Another doctrine that bears on the doctrine of prayer to the saints is the false oral tradition called Sola Scriptura, which contradicts the Word.
As Scripture says,
“And what you have heard from me through many witnesses, pass on to other who will be able to teach others also.”
Cf. also 2 Tim 1:13, 2:2, 3:10, 14, 16-17.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
Those who adopt this a-historical doctrine are unable to read the Scriptures in the context of the historical Church.
To see how the historical Church unanimously believes in prayer (not worship) to the saints and their intercession for us:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
Also, specifically in regard to our Mother's intercession for us:
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary_dev.htm
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/2/2009 2:53:01 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 12:41:38 PM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 622
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
One thing I can't get over: we ask people to pray for us all the time. I've never heard of protestants who think it is idolatry to ask their minister or friends to pray for them.
I've never heard of protestants who pray to their dead ministers or friends. That would be idolatry just like the RCC teaches.
quote:
The Bible says that we are fellow citizents with the saints.
Yup. Eph 2:19 says, when we believe we become fellow-citizens with the saints in the family of God. This and many other verses in the Bible make it clear that ALL believers are saints. There is not one verse in scripture that shows saints were dead people or had to meet certain requirements other than having faith. That is an unbiblical teaching of the RCC.
quote:
Why can't we ask these citizens, also, to pray for us: especially since they are now "perfect". Cf. Heb 12:23.
Because you have to contact them in the grave in order to do so and God has forbidden such practices. Also, according to Heb 11:40, the dead are not made perfect without us. Prove biblically that the souls of "saints" who have died have been "made perfect" before us. Prove biblically that our souls go to "heaven" -- or even purgatory -- immediately upon death.
_____________________________
Wild by nature; grafted by Grace
(Rom 11:13-25)
<><
FYI: According to US Code, flying the flag upside-down is a recognized signal that our nation is in distress or crisis.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 1:16:39 PM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 622
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
Another doctrine that bears on the doctrine of prayer to the saints is the false oral tradition called Sola Scriptura, which contradicts the Word.
As Scripture says,
“And what you have heard from me through many witnesses, pass on to other who will be able to teach others also.”
Sorry, but this does not contradict the Word. There is no implication that what was heard was not written down in the gospels and epistles so it could be passed on to others -- thus we have the Word of God contained in the Scriptures -- profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2Tim 3:16).
It's ironic that a denomination who claims their leader was the omniscient one who gave us the canon, dismisses it as an authority and does not put any faith in it at all. Go figure. I guess that's why it's said that Catholicism is the religion of contradiction.
quote:
Those who adopt this a-historical doctrine are unable to read the Scriptures in the context of the historical Church.
To the contrary, those who place the extra-biblical oral traditions of man over the authority of Scripture are the ones who are unable to read the Scriptures in the context of the pre-RCC historical Church. Your premis that the RCC is the "historical Church" is faulty at best.
quote:
To see how the historical Church unanimously believes in prayer (not worship) to the saints and their intercession for us:
Your use of the word "unanimous" with regard to the RCC is really quite humerous -- considering that if one didn't believe what the RCC told them to believe they were subject to death. It's understandable if the pope's people said ... "oh, yeah! I agree!. Sure thing!. No doubt! Absolutely correct!" LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
< Message edited by WildByNature -- 11/2/2009 1:22:58 PM >
_____________________________
Wild by nature; grafted by Grace
(Rom 11:13-25)
<><
FYI: According to US Code, flying the flag upside-down is a recognized signal that our nation is in distress or crisis.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 2:51:22 PM
|
|
|
patricius79
Posts: 595
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
|
As Scripture says,
"We have come to Mount Zion, and to the spirits of the just made perfect."
Here is an moving example of the Word about prayer to the saints, as well as the Sacrifice of Christ and Purgatory, both of which are profoundly related to the practice of praying of invoking the spirits of the just made perfect (cf. Heb 12:23):
"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth."
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,23:9(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:154
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/eschat.htm
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/2/2009 2:57:43 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 3:45:19 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6319
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
I guess if you take a few words out of those verses like you did you can squeeze it hard enough to make it say what you think it says. However, if one reads the entire verse and those that surround it it has a completely different meaning and has absolutely nothing to do with praying to the saints or purgatory.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 4:22:47 PM
|
|
|
rawr.ben
Posts: 2724
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.
1And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered....4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days....9And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him....12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.3And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:14And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.15And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Houston, you've got a problem here.
If Mary is the woman of Rev 12 you've got a giant contradiction of RC's doctrines. This woman is said to have "cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered" Your church says Mary had no pain and delivered so "unusually" that she remained "intact". Besides which, the pain of child birth is the direct result of sin...read Genesis.
So, which is it?....who is the real Mary?....the woman of Rev 12 or the "ever" virgin?...got to choose one because it can't be both.
It's sad how posts like this get ignored.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
Facebook
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 4:25:10 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 4170
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
|
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
Patricius--the rub is that no one knows for sure that your "saints" are in heaven. The pope doesn't have the authority to say either way.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 4:29:56 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6319
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
Patricius--the rub is that no one knows for sure that your "saints" are in heaven. The pope doesn't have the authority to say either way.
I can give you an answer to this question. A lot of people will not like it but it is a historical fact that Constatine the Great converted to Christianity. Although whether fully or not is debatable. He disired to creat a unified religion across the Roman Empire. In doing so he co-mingled christian beliefs with pagan beliefs to come up with a religion that would be accepted by everyone. The title "Queen of Heaven" and 'Mother of God" was taken from an Egyptian Goddess named Isis. Both title were attributed to her hundreds of years before the RCC gave them to Mary. In fact the Pope did not carry the title of Pontifex Maximus in the beginning. Constatine did and maintain that title until his death. After his death the pope assumed the title. This title also was from a pagan religion. All of this is recorded in history. But not in the history the RCC teaches.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 4:34:02 PM
|
|
|
rawr.ben
Posts: 2724
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
|
I'll give it . . . half an hour or so, before Patricius redirects you to catholic.com and cin.com to prove your history wrong.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
Facebook
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 6:24:21 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
By good do you mean one you agree with?
I know I have posted something about this title before, but here is something off Wiki. I know, yes, I used wiki as a source,  but it looked good, and I would hate to disappoint Ben and use Catholic.com before someone else could, although there is a great explanation there Stellaluna just search Queen of heaven.
Pax,
Mary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 6:28:38 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 1172
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
That would be idolatry just like the RCC teaches.
...uhhh...the RC does not teach participation in idolatry...falsehood #1. If you believe it does, then crack open a Catechism, and post me the paragraph where Catholics are instructed to do this.
quote:
This and many other verses in the Bible make it clear that ALL believers are saints. There is not one verse in scripture that shows saints were dead people or had to meet certain requirements other than having faith.
What Catholics distinguish, however, are signs of the efficacy of the prayers of some faithful, that appear to be in excess of other people. And Catholics are pretty sure that the one's who exhibit efficacy with their prayers to God for Christian causes ARE saints, noting that there do indeed appear to be saints walking among us.
Surely one can recognize that in any given congregation in any collectin of any kind or flavor of Christian one cares to specify - everyone is there because they have faith, while noting that some people's faith appears to be stronger, more fully developed, or just down-right more effective than the faith of other folks. Surely you do not look across the landscape of Christianity and lump the filed missionary bringing Christianity to the remote people of the world with Benny Hinn...both of these folks have faith, they just have different degrees of it and choose to express it in unequivalent ways.
quote:
Because you have to contact them in the grave in order to do so
That isn't exactly how it works. The Saints, in heaven, want for nothing. But - they continue to pray for the causes of those of us here that they have left for an eternal presence with God. The appeal to a Saint for their help is joining our prayers to theirs for common causes. This is where the idea of "patrons" comes from (the patron Saint of finding lost keys...) - particular Saints prayers were (are) particularly effective for particular causes.
St. Thomas Aquinas said that God's pure brilliant white light passes through the prism of his creation and scatters that light into the rainbow of colors composing it. Beautiful imagery to describe what a practice of reflecting on the Saints does for us - it shows us the spectrum of God's light as reflected in the examples of these people who walked among us, and reminds us that it is all about yielding to God's will for us over our own agendas and desires.
Is the claim here that we should ignore the example of solid Christians who have walked before us?
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 6:34:48 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 1172
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Sorry, but this does not contradict the Word. There is no implication that what was heard was not written down in the gospels and epistles so it could be passed on to others -- thus we have the Word of God contained in the Scriptures -- profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2Tim 3:16).
I already asked this question once, but is the witness and deposit of faith for Bartholomew, Andrew and Stephen any less valid than that of Matthew, Mark and Luke?
They all saw Jesus, yes? Is the deposit of faith written on the hearts of Andrew and Stephen by Jesus less valid, because we don't have a written Gospel attributed to these guys?
Was Jesus a poor communicator, or did He choose His Apostles poorly? Choose one...
Please, define "profitable" in your quoted verse...go back to the Greek, if you need to...
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/2/2009 6:48:20 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 4170
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
By good do you mean one you agree with?
No, how Catholics can continue to call Mary the Queen of Heaven as though it's a good thing. The bible clearly tells us it isn't.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 9:14:18 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
By good do you mean one you agree with?
No, how Catholics can continue to call Mary the Queen of Heaven as though it's a good thing. The bible clearly tells us it isn't.
The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary. The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Dn 2:37), yet this doesn't preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rv 17:14; 19:16).
Since the destiny of all Christians is to reign as kings and queens with Christ in heaven (Eph 2:12; Rv 1:6; 5:10), and since Mary is the preeminent Christian, there's nothing wrong with giving her the title which Christ, the King of Kings, bestowed upon her in making Mary his mother.
From - http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1022
More on the title can be found here - http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 9:27:35 AM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 4170
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
|
Meh. I don't believe for a minute that Mary is THE "preeminent Christian" or that Christ gave his mother any title. I don't know why I bother with this thread. I think I won't anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 9:32:49 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Meh. I don't believe for a minute that Mary is THE "preeminent Christian" or that Christ gave his mother any title. I don't know why I bother with this thread. I think I won't anymore.
You don't have to agree, you said no one told you why Catholics thought this title was a good thing, I answered that.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 9:36:29 AM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1548
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
By good do you mean one you agree with?
Pax,
Mary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven
How about one that lines up with SCRIPTURE
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 9:38:38 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
By good do you mean one you agree with?
Pax,
Mary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven
How about one that lines up with SCRIPTURE
Post 5314
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 9:38:50 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 1172
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
How about one that lines up with SCRIPTURE
...Dude...welcome back...where you been...?
...I'll go get more Band-aids...
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 11:25:55 AM
|
|
|
SamsonUSA
Posts: 2069
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
Status: offline
|
quote:
...uhhh...the RC does not teach participation in idolatry...falsehood #1.
Unfortunately they practice it. This is an irrefutable fact.
_____________________________
If you can't be thankful for what you receive, be thankful for what you escape.
"You are never more free than when you fulfill the plan God has for your life." Warren Wiersbe
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 11:30:31 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
...uhhh...the RC does not teach participation in idolatry...falsehood #1.
Unfortunately they practice it. This is an irrefutable fact.
Really Irrefutable?? Prove it.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 11:36:30 AM
|
|
|
WildByNature
Posts: 622
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.
So your Scriptural explanation as to why you beliive you have "rightfully" applied the title of a pagan diety to Mary is -- "because we can"?
quote:
The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Dn 2:37), yet this doesn't preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rv 17:14; 19:16).
The fault in this logic is that GOD bestowed the title, in different senses, to both Neb and Jesus -- as the Scriptures clearly show; however, the Scriptures do NOT show that God bestowed the title "queen of heaven" to either the pagan diety or to Mary.
quote:
Since the destiny of all Christians is to reign as kings and queens with Christ in heaven ...
Where does Scripture say there are "queens" in heaven?
quote:
... and since Mary is the preeminent Christian,
Where does Scripture say Mary is "the preeminent Christian"?
quote:
... there's nothing wrong with giving her the title which Christ, the King of Kings, bestowed upon her in making Mary his mother.
Where does Scripture say Christ bestowed the title "queen of heaven" upon Mary?
How can you even enterain the idea that any reasonable person would accept that such illogical, unbiblical assumptions line up with Scripture?
_____________________________
Wild by nature; grafted by Grace
(Rom 11:13-25)
<><
FYI: According to US Code, flying the flag upside-down is a recognized signal that our nation is in distress or crisis.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 1:34:11 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.
So your Scriptural explanation as to why you believe you have "rightfully" applied the title of a pagan diety to Mary is -- "because we can"?
Did you read the links?
More on the title can be found here - http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
quote:
How can you even enterain the idea that any reasonable person would accept that such illogical, unbiblical assumptions line up with Scripture?
We don't have to agree thats fine. I see it as being in line with scripture. I was not trying to post something everyone would agree with, rather only answer the question as to why Catholics see nothing wrong in the use of the title.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 4:00:23 PM
|
|
|
patricius79
Posts: 595
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
|
BEN WROTE:
quote:
If Mary is the woman of Rev 12 you've got a giant contradiction of RC's doctrines. This woman is said to have "cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered" Your church says Mary had no pain and delivered so "unusually" that she remained "intact". Besides which, the pain of child birth is the direct result of sin...read Genesis.
So, which is it?....who is the real Mary?....the woman of Rev 12 or the "ever" virgin?...got to choose one because it can't be both.
I think that both Is 66:7 and Rev 12:2 are both referring to Mary. Protestants believe both are referring to the Church, even though one describes painless childbirth, and the other agonizing childbirth.
If the protestant position is not necessarily a contradiction, then neither is the Catholic position necessarily a contradiction. (Whether it is okay to see this Woman as a sign of both Mary and the Church, is another question.)
Here is an excellent summary of historical evidence for the idea that Mary was not subject to the stain of Original Sin:
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary.htm
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
As Scripture says, “Behold, the slave of the Lord. Be it done to me according to your Word.”
QTMAN WROTE:
quote:
I guess if you take a few words out of those verses like you did [such as Heb 12:23 and Mt 22:32] you can squeeze it hard enough to make it say what you think it says. However, if one reads the entire verse and those that surround it it has a completely different meaning and has absolutely nothing to do with praying to the saints or purgatory.
You have a right to your opinion. But [lease note that I am not arguing from Scripture alone in reference to these teachings. (The idea of going by Scripture alone—as though the Scriptures could be separated from the oral Word held by the Church-- is itself an un-Biblical practice. In other words, there is no historical basis for separating trust of the Scriptures from trust of Catholicism. In regard to where we got the Canon:
http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp
Rather, the historic Christian understanding is that the Scriptures are the book of the historical Bride of Jesus, Who alone accepts their whole meaning, whether explicit or implicit.
The idea that something must be explicit in Scripture for it to be true or binding, is itself a non-Biblical idea, as is the idea of privately interpreting the Scriptures apart from the historic Church’s Spirit.
I know from early Church history that the Church—like the Orthodox Jews, have always believed praying for the dead and the intercession of the saints (cf. Rev 5:8).
http://www.catholic.com/library/last_things.asp
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/eschat.htm
" During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth."
Augustine,Enchiridion,1099(A.D. 421),in NPNF1,III:272
quote:
A lot of people will not like it but it is a historical fact that Constatine the Great converted to Christianity. Although whether fully or not is debatable.
Why would we not like this?
quote:
He disired to creat a unified religion across the Roman Empire. In doing so he co-mingled christian beliefs with pagan beliefs to come up with a religion that would be accepted by everyone.
Qtman, can you provide some elaboration and primary documentation? Which doctrines came only after the alleged Constantinian mingling of pagan and Chriistian beliefs?
Also, why is there no record of the protestant beliefs between—for example—100 and 325, while there is good record of the Catholic teachings about Baptism, Apostolic Succession, hierarchy of Bishop Priest Deacon, Papacy, veneration of the saints and relics, and so on?
quote:
The title "Queen of Heaven" and 'Mother of God" was taken from an Egyptian Goddess named Isis. Both title were attributed to her hundreds of years before the RCC gave them to Mary.
This is a false oral tradition. I recommend this excellent article which points out how this line of innuendo can be used equally against protestantism:
“Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics, by Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics, and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.”
For the rest of this article[“Is Catholicism Pagan?” Catholic Answers San Diego 2004:]
http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp
The Word teaches that Mary is the Mother of God:
“How can it be that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?”
http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
quote:
In fact the Pope did not carry the title of Pontifex Maximus in the beginning. Constatine did and maintain that title until his death. After his death the pope assumed the title. This title also was from a pagan religion. All of this is recorded in history. But not in the history the RCC teaches.
I don’t know about this history. Do you have documentation? I do know that the Church has always incorporated any good term—such as the Latin word “Trinitas” into her practice, so long as this is done carefully and in accord with the constant teaching of the Church. The doctrine of the Papacy is well founded in the Scriptures and the documents between 100 and the Edict of Milan in 313.
The history the Catholic Church teaches is supported by constant documentation from Pentecost through the 500s, and beyond.
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm
STELLALUNA WROTE:
quote:
We've never gotten a good explanation of the Queen of Heaven title, either.
I’m not prepared to answer this personall, except to recommend a study of the Davidic “Queen Mother” term in Scripture.
As Solomon said to the Queen Mother,
“ask it of me, my mother, for I shall not refuse you.”
Cf. 1 Kings 2:19-20, Jer 13:18-20.
quote:
Patricius--the rub is that no one knows for sure that your "saints" are in heaven. The pope doesn't have the authority to say either way.
I personally know for sure and that the Successor of Simon Rock does have this authority, as the Word of God bears witness. Please see the Papal thread.
All glory be to Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/3/2009 4:27:39 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 11/3/2009 5:39:09 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 6319
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
Also, why is there no record of the protestant beliefs between—for example—100 and 325,
Patricius I am going to answer this question and then maybe you will be so kind as to stop posting it in every other post you make.
To start off the question is about as ridiculous as asking me for a photograph of a car or airplane made during the same period. How in the world can someone produce a document from the Protestant Reformation that would have to have been written over 1000 years before the Protestant Reformation. So to answer your question, silly as it is, NO. Neither I nor anyone else can produce a document from the Protestant Reformation dating to 100 to 325.
Now. Will you tell me do you know the difference between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church. And don't tell me there is no difference because there is a vast difference.
As to the other posts I made regarding history you can find it yourself if you look. Hint: you have to look outside the RCC.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
