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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/25/2005 10:45:16 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?
Per my previous "St. Sadiebelle, patron of harried travelers" example - the difference is "efficacy", wherein one who has been "Canonized" has demonstrated an efficacy to the Faithful in regard to seeking the favor and Graces of God.
To me the importance remains the example. Thus, when I seek the help of St. Francis of Assissi, I want God to grant me the type of Grace that this St. enjoyed in his trials, to assist me with mine. I believe this is the proper practice of this belief.
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
Having said that, even iof the Hebrews passage of the saints on earth being "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses" were to mean the saints who have preceeded us into the Presence of the Lord, I do not see any Scriptural basis for their influencing God to do other that what God has determined to do by the counsel of His Own Will(Ephesians 1:11).
Which includes the following:
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Dear Augustine,
Calvin was a faulty Augustinian.
I would suggest that the workings of prayer are not understood. They need not be understood to be effective. In Luke, Chapter 18, Christ infers an comparison between His Father and a dishonest judge. Moral of the story, don't give up.
On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:01:11 AM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Don't we ask others to pray for us because we believe it will help our situation? Like when we ask others to pray for us to get well when we're sick, and then we get well, we thank those who "lifted us up in prayer", and believe their prayers helped us get well. We do believe praying to Saints is beneficial. But they and we (ideally) are praying for everyone else as well.
No, we don't ask for others to pray for us because we think it will help our situation. If one person prays for a need, it is not given any less attention than a prayer by one thousand people. 10 thousand people could pray for something that goes against God's will vs. one person that prayes in accordance to God's will. Who will be answered?
Yes God can hear one prayer or one thousand. But if as you say one thousand people are praying, but in God's will, then we can't throw any of them out and say their prayer doesn't matter or didn't accomplish anything.
The Orthodox teach that salvation is not obtained alone. The intercession of the Saints is necessary. Not just their current prayers, but their accomplishments in preserving and growing the faith in the world through times past. We depend on Sts Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to bring us the Gospels, as well as the church who preserved and canonized them. Of course this is all possible by the grace of God.
Mary has the title Theotokos, which means God bearer. We depend on people to bring us Jesus, like our parents if we were raised in a Christian home, and other people who have intervened in our lives. It is not wrong to show gratitude to these people who have helped us along our way. In our services we extol the accomplishments of the Saints as well as ask for their continued prayers.
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:55:18 AM
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Heavyduty
Posts: 18
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear heavy duty:
" So what you are saying is that praying to the Saints is wrong but talking to them isn't? I simply don't see the difference. Perhaps you could explain."
Me: Jesus on the mt was not praying to the saints. Jesus is fully God and can commune with whomever he wants. For ''he'' is the same yesterday today and forever. He is fully man and fully God. We are not.
Jesus' example is clear to whom TO pray TO , and he is sufficient for each member of his body. Each member of his body prays to him, for all needs not to another spirit being.
Only Christ is and was sinless, and found worthy. This is the gospel of God. It is all about our Savior(redeemer) and LORD for the world.
Grace and Peace
How can you tell what method of communication Jesus was using on the Mountain. The Bible doesn't say. So your definition of Prayer is simply Worship then? I'd say your definition is rather limited. How did you get this definition? Clearly Moses had died. Did Moses use sound waves when he talked? Had Moses been ressurrected before Jesus?
If I call up someone on the phone, I am not talking to them, in fact my voice is being translated into electronic signals which then get interpreted and come out as vibrations (sound) on the other end. Am I "praying" when I talk on the phone? Clearly I am not talking to the person I am communicating with I am talking to a little plastic device with holes in two ends and a wire. Do you think Heaven is not as "sophisticated" as we here on earth? They can't hear us because they don't have technology? What about email what about this forum, what about writing? I am not talking to anyone, in fact I can write something and it can be read hundereds of years later. I am communicating with someone in the future! Is this prayer?
Perhaps I shouldn't talk to anyone unless they are in front of me because that would be considered "praying".
Is it the difference between communicating with someone who is alive versus dead? We know the Saints are alive with Christ. This is not a speculation. We do not talk to those who are dead and are not with Christ. It is not an obligation, but it also does not deserve condemnation. Who are you to judge? Asking a departed Saint for prayer is not a substitute for asking Jesus, neither is asking your pastor or priest for prayer a substitute for coming directly to God and yet the scriptures encourage us to go to others for prayer. This is intercessory prayer, asking others to pray for you. The method of communication is simply secondary whether it be by spirit or by electrons.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 11:35:07 AM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
God does not hold the "influences of our salvation" accountable for our own walk with Him. It is folly to cling to these individuals as if they have something to do with our relationship with Christ. Prayer can be prayed alone for the rest of your life and it will not change the effectiveness of it.
_____________________________
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Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:08:54 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
I have posted before my belief that prayer is for us much more than it is for God (why do we need to ask an omnibenevolent, omniscient God for anything - He already knows what we need and loves us enough to supply it). So to dodge the pot-hole you have put in the road, I respond as follows:
- If reflection on the example of a particular Saint causes the kind of self-examination that either brings about a real change of heart or that strengthens and steadies the believer in a time of trial or that persuades the believer to more fervantly live the example of Christ in their life, then I am defining that prayer and reflection in the name and on the name of that Saint to be "efficacious".
Surely it is "Scriptural" to think that we might model behaviors of other Christians in specific situations and circumstances, because those Saints model what Christ would have dome - had He been in that situation. When looking at the Faith and choices of a Saint at martyrdom, for example - choosing to "go down with the ship" - we can see the example of perseverence and faith that is specific to we believers and is "closer" to us because this behavior (a subset of Christ's choices in one moment or instance) were an example of the possibilites of flawed souls, just like us.
I sometimes believe the problem is similar to what I read in another thread about Calvinism - many think they know what this practice is all about, based on what they have heard about it, rather than based on trying to work it into their Faith practice and actually give it a whirl.
I find it hard to believe that Jesus would look at the perseverence of St. Thomas More against the crown of England for the cause of "right" - until his own death - and say "Don't pay any attention to that. That is not how a Christian should act".
On the contrary, I think it fair game to reflect on these examples and to request the Grace gifted to these folks in their time of need that we may persevere in our walk of Faith - until our death. For in reflecting on and asking for that Grace, we might just receive it.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 1:08:36 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
God does not hold the "influences of our salvation" accountable for our own walk with Him. It is folly to cling to these individuals as if they have something to do with our relationship with Christ. Prayer can be prayed alone for the rest of your life and it will not change the effectiveness of it.
In a nutshell, this is the fundamental difference between the Protestant and orthodox (lower case because I'm including the CC and EOC agreed on beliefs) theology of salvation, IMO. Any C's, O's or P's disagree?
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 1:27:40 PM
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist
Posts: 14
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
However, what difference does it make to ask a Saint in heaven to pray with/for you, when you have people here on earth to pray with/for you? It seems like folks are suggesting there is more power to the prayer if they call on a Saint in heaven vs. asking a Christian friend...
...if the prayer is within God's will, it doesn't matter who you have praying for you, God will do His will regardless. There is no Scripture that demonstartes a prayer being heard more so than any other prayer simply because it was asked to a Saint in heaven. Get my question?
Per my previous "St. Sadiebelle, patron of harried travelers" example - the difference is "efficacy", wherein one who has been "Canonized" has demonstrated an efficacy to the Faithful in regard to seeking the favor and Graces of God.
To me the importance remains the example. Thus, when I seek the help of St. Francis of Assissi, I want God to grant me the type of Grace that this St. enjoyed in his trials, to assist me with mine. I believe this is the proper practice of this belief.
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
Having said that, even iof the Hebrews passage of the saints on earth being "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses" were to mean the saints who have preceeded us into the Presence of the Lord, I do not see any Scriptural basis for their influencing God to do other that what God has determined to do by the counsel of His Own Will(Ephesians 1:11).
Which includes the following:
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Dear Augustine,
Calvin was a faulty Augustinian.
I would suggest that the workings of prayer are not understood. They need not be understood to be effective. In Luke, Chapter 18, Christ infers an comparison between His Father and a dishonest judge. Moral of the story, don't give up.
On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
I've read the "rules" of this forum, and since you feel entitled to caste such a dispersion on Jean Chauvin, while I am prohibited from saying the Pope is the antichrist, then there either must be a stacked deck here or you have no regard for the forum rules.
Having said that, the Luke 18 passage does not denote the judge being "dishonest". the judge is portrayed as seeming to be indifferent to the woman's pleas in the beginning. Secondly, the woman's persistence, in the light of the entirety of Scripture on prayer, such as praying to the "Father" as Jesus said, not to other saints, and Jesus's exhortation that whatever was prayed, being in the Will of God, would be done, was for her benefit in learning persistence in seeking out God's Will through prayer, not so she could be granted any request as if asking from a genie in a bottle.
I agree that the workings of prayer are terribly misunderstood. Most understand prayer to be a means of petitioning God to do our bidding, when in reality it's the other way around. God is not a man that He should change His Mind.
Many may say, "Prayer changes things.", which is a false saying. Prayer changes us, not changes things. God is not reactionary.
_____________________________
"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"
- George Whitefield
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 3:09:59 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
It is a very hard change of perspective to acknowledge the influence of others in our salvation. After a year, I am just now truly comfortable with it.
God does not hold the "influences of our salvation" accountable for our own walk with Him. It is folly to cling to these individuals as if they have something to do with our relationship with Christ. Prayer can be prayed alone for the rest of your life and it will not change the effectiveness of it.
In a nutshell, this is the fundamental difference between the Protestant and orthodox (lower case because I'm including the CC and EOC agreed on beliefs) theology of salvation, IMO. Any C's, O's or P's disagree?
What is the fundamental difference? Can you please elaborate rather than talking over my head? 
Sorry, it's hard to know how to express these things sometimes. I was looking for a quote that Unworthyseraphim shared with me a while back on CW about salvation not being accomplished by ourselves, but I can't find it. This site discusses the Saints in detail. I haven't read all the info but here's some exerpts.
"IN HONORING THE SAINTS we celebrate God's accomplished work of salvation. Archbishop Paul of Finland writes, “In glorifying the saints' spiritual struggle and victory, the Church is in fact glorifying God's work of salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit; it experiences the salvation already accomplished in them, the goal towards which the members of the Church militant are still pressing on (Phil. 3:12,14).” Thus, by remembering the saints we celebrate what the Holy Spirit has done in their lives.
The saints show us what a glorious destiny we have in God. Through the glorious example of their lives, they point the way to our becoming “partakers of divine nature.”
As members of the Body of Christ, the Church, saints are the hands of God by which He accomplishes His work in the world today. Even after their deaths they perform works of love as intercessors in heaven who pray for us."
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm#n1
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 3:30:29 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Sorry, it's hard to know how to express these things sometimes. I was looking for a quote that Unworthyseraphim shared with me a while back on CW about salvation not being accomplished by ourselves, but I can't find it. This site discusses the Saints in detail. I haven't read all the info but here's some exerpts.
"IN HONORING THE SAINTS we celebrate God's accomplished work of salvation. Archbishop Paul of Finland writes, “In glorifying the saints' spiritual struggle and victory, the Church is in fact glorifying God's work of salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit; it experiences the salvation already accomplished in them, the goal towards which the members of the Church militant are still pressing on (Phil. 3:12,14).” Thus, by remembering the saints we celebrate what the Holy Spirit has done in their lives.
The saints show us what a glorious destiny we have in God. Through the glorious example of their lives, they point the way to our becoming “partakers of divine nature.”
As members of the Body of Christ, the Church, saints are the hands of God by which He accomplishes His work in the world today. Even after their deaths they perform works of love as intercessors in heaven who pray for us."
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm#n1
I am in no way saying there is anything wrong with honoring the lives of Christians that have moved on. I am trying to sort out the difference between doing that and taking it a step beyond by praying to them. The Saints have no direct influence on our own salvation.
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 3:54:50 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
I am in no way saying there is anything wrong with honoring the lives of Christians that have moved on. I am trying to sort out the difference between doing that and taking it a step beyond by praying to them. The Saints have no direct influence on our own salvation.
The Catholic Church doesn't teach that the saints have any influence on our salvation, nor does it teach that they can answer prayers. All it teaches is that we can ask them to pray for us and that God will answer their prayers, just as He answers the prayers of Christians on earth. Nobody is forced to ask the saints to pray for them and you can be a Catholic in 100% with what the Church teaches and not partake in this religious practice. What you can't do though is deny the apostle's creed by saying that you don't believe in "the communion of saints."
If you don't want to accept this doctrine, that is fine, nobody is making you ask for the saint's intercession. But, don't make it sound like Catholics believe things about the saints when they don't. I think it is only fair that we let the Catholics and Orthodox state what they believe instead of presuming that we know how they view their faith.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 4:04:21 PM
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist
Posts: 14
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: Augustine_Was_Calvinist
While I don't personally have a problem with anyone asking one of the saints in heaven to offer interccessory prayer, even though I see no Scriptural basis that the saints who have "gone to be with the Lord" have awareness of anything here in time and space, there is in your statement above an assumption that God is reactionary, and can be influenced by the "efficacy" of anyone within His Presence. I think Scripture well defines prayer to be a means of building relationship with the Lover of our souls and to bring us in line with His will, and not the other way around. That God is somehow reactionary smacks of open theism to me, and is clealy not what is taught within the pages of Holy Writ.
I have posted before my belief that prayer is for us much more than it is for God (why do we need to ask an omnibenevolent, omniscient God for anything - He already knows what we need and loves us enough to supply it). So to dodge the pot-hole you have put in the road, I respond as follows:
- If reflection on the example of a particular Saint causes the kind of self-examination that either brings about a real change of heart or that strengthens and steadies the believer in a time of trial or that persuades the believer to more fervantly live the example of Christ in their life, then I am defining that prayer and reflection in the name and on the name of that Saint to be "efficacious".
Reflection on and drawing inspiration from saints who have preceded us is not the same as praying "to" that saint, now is it?
I reflect on and draw much inspiration from, especially the saints in the early church, notably, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Athanasius, James the Just, James Camelknees, Perpetua and many others that I wish my Protestant brethren would learn from, but not as a means of communication with them, but to draw inspiration, assurance and knowledge from their fervent lives in Christ.
"Efficacius" in what way? If you are talking about the value rendered by their inspiring lives in Christ for setting a standard for us to emilate, then yes, I would agree.
quote:
Surely it is "Scriptural" to think that we might model behaviors of other Christians in specific situations and circumstances, because those Saints model what Christ would have dome - had He been in that situation. When looking at the Faith and choices of a Saint at martyrdom, for example - choosing to "go down with the ship" - we can see the example of perseverence and faith that is specific to we believers and is "closer" to us because this behavior (a subset of Christ's choices in one moment or instance) were an example of the possibilites of flawed souls, just like us.
I agree without hestitation.
quote:
I sometimes believe the problem is similar to what I read in another thread about Calvinism - many think they know what this practice is all about, based on what they have heard about it, rather than based on trying to work it into their Faith practice and actually give it a whirl.
As I said, I personally don't have a problem with the practice of asking saints who have preceeded us into glory for intercessory prayer, though I find no real scriptural support for it, neither would I say it is a practice outside of the pale of orthodoxy, and that is based on having studied the practice from Roman Catholic sources and friends. Terminology sometimes can be a tough bridge to cross, as you well know. That sometimes keeps people from understanding in earnest.
quote:
I find it hard to believe that Jesus would look at the perseverence of St. Thomas More against the crown of England for the cause of "right" - until his own death - and say "Don't pay any attention to that. That is not how a Christian should act".
On the contrary, I think it fair game to reflect on these examples and to request the Grace gifted to these folks in their time of need that we may persevere in our walk of Faith - until our death. For in reflecting on and asking for that Grace, we might just receive it.
I agree there too. I also petition God for the grace, patience, perseverance, love, mercy, wisdom, discernment and other qualities found in other saints.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 4:50:03 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear Goodme:
You: Isn't what makes us righteous actually the thoughts, words and actions chosen - trying to live in the example of our Savior?
Me: Choosing and striving to live, because of his grace. Never my own righteousness. I have none without my living Savior in me:
Imo-the word teaches us a different will at work in us. Paul said that is the allsurpassing power of God in us. And that Grace has made him into what he is.
The word says that we have been granted on behalf of Christ to believe in him and to be sanctified.
Without Christ made alive in me-as a new creation born again ''by God'', -I have no righteousness of Christ 'who' will wash and renew me.
We are God's workmanship created ''in Christ '' to do the good works that he had prepared in advance. If a man lives by the truth it is plan to see that it has been done through God.
You: Isn't what makes for righteousness - righteousness? Right choices, right actions, right thoughts, right deeds, right living? I have posted before that I just don't see the disconnection here. We know righteousness as believers - the example and definition of it was Jesus. We are asked to "Do what Jesus did".
Me: We do, because we live not for ourselves. 'We have died' and our life is hidden in him.
We are no longer living for ourselves as a new creation in him.
It is much deeper than ''me''-it is God who has reconciled me by Jesus death and resurrection and life.
"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."
As a 'new creation in Christ', it is him in me who will be the victor and the overcomer.
You: I see this instruction as some sort of abstraction ("through Faith, we are righteous. Fine - righteous is what righteous does - don't you think?) I suspect I will get accused of "boasting about my works here" - but I am boasting about God's works - through me as my will cooperates with His for me.
Me: Without God 'in us'-we have no will that has died to ourselves, so that we can cooperate. The gift of faith, has given us this grace, in which we now stand, and are justified.
You: If we have a person who has demonstrated the efficacy of their prayer and we use that efficacy to recognize the "standing" of that person and their lived relationship with God ("wow, God must really like what they did - bestowing His Grace on them as He did. Man - I would like to have that person in my corner").
Me: Bless you. Imo-Christ in each of us is the wow. And completely efficacious for us. We trust "him".
You: The question you beg is - does God give you everything you ask for?
ME: Nope :) that is not the question I beg-
God will answer our prayers in Christ's name. All of them.
It is us, who will come to understand, by faith that God knows what is best for us, and what is his will.
You: If no - why not? If yes - then would you ask him for something for me? The first questions the believer's Faith and their relationship with God - the second affirms it - by witness of another believer.
Me: -God answers all prayer-even when we think he doens't..It is our paradyme: shifting to his perceptions, for us, to change and conform to his will. All things work for ''the good'' for those that love him.
- The fellowship we have as the body is to trust God for the body. In him, his promises for us never fail.
The witness is that we have shared one faith, and ARE united to one Holy Spirit TO whom we have prayed TO.
Again-the affirmation shifts from ourselves and what we thought we needed to understand his will.
God will never fail us. "For there are three that testify the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three are in agreement."
You: The accusation that this is "unscriptural" doesn't invalidate the basis of either question - either you are effective or you aren't (noting that there may be varying degrees here).
Me: Bless you. Jesus did not teach us in his word to pray TO another being than each one of his children like himself: TO God.
Faith in Christ is what is effective in each of us. I am not effective but I believe, by faith that he completely IS. Always will be.
Prayer TO God expresses my faith that he is.
You: If you are - would you be so kind as to help me out? That's what we are talking about here.
Me: I am not effective-God is. "You are not your own; you were bought at a price"
"For just a through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Grace and Peace to you
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 4:57:03 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 505
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
I am in no way saying there is anything wrong with honoring the lives of Christians that have moved on. I am trying to sort out the difference between doing that and taking it a step beyond by praying to them. The Saints have no direct influence on our own salvation.
They do have a direct influence in our salvation in that they preserved the faith through the millenia by the grace of God. Doesn't the person who shared Jesus and the Bible with you have a vital role in your salvation? We (as believers in free will) believe that Mary's "may it be done unto me according to your word" to Gabriel was an essential part in Jesus becoming man.
As far as praying to them, this is from the same site:
quote:
The Communion of Saints
ALTHOUGH SAINTS ARE NOT substitutes for Christ, Orthodox Christians believe firmly in the communion of saints. By this we mean that the Church Triumphant in heaven is not insensitive to the needs and sufferings of the Church Militant on earth. The two churches remain connected through the bond of love which is expressed through prayer. The communion of saints is a communion of never-ending prayer.
Thus, besides our Church Family on earth, we belong to a larger family of God, which includes those who have gone before us. We are united with those in heaven. We call this the Communion of Saints, that is, the union of all who share in the life of Christ, whether on earth or in the other world.
Commenting on this, Fr. Kallistos Ware writes: “In God and in His Church there is no division between the living and the departed, but all are one in the love of the Father. Whether we are alive or whether we are dead, as members of the Church we still belong to the same family, and still have a duty to bear one another's burdens. Therefore just as Orthodox Christians here on earth pray for one another and ask for one another's prayers, so they pray for the faithful departed and ask the faithful departed to pray for them. Death cannot sever the bond of mutual love which links the members of the Church together.”
Fr. John of Kronstadt writes on the communion of saints: “We live together with them (the Saints in heaven), in the house of the Heavenly Father, only in different parts of it. We live in the earthly, they in the heavenly half; but we can converse with them, and they with us.”
How effectively the Communion of Saints is expressed on the walls of Orthodox Churches where the angels, prophets, apostles, martyrs and saints are all gathered together with the worshippers around the figure of the All-Ruling Christ in the dome. The entire Church, that in heaven and that on earth, converses with each other and lifts its heart in praise to God.
Sergius Bolshakoff caught this when he visited the Monastery of Dionysiou on Mt. Athos. He writes: “The church had its own air of mystery. A few red lamps burned before the golden iconostasis and the icons on the stand. Hieratic saints solemly looked down from the blue walls. It seemed as though they, too, had come to assist at the Liturgy, representing the church triumphant.”
Noting the small congregation in church one Sunday morning, a cynic said to the priest, “Not many in church this morning, Father. Not many at all.” The old priest replied, “You are wrong, my son. There were thousands at church this morning. Thousands and thousands and tens of thousands.” For, the priest had just read in the prayers of the liturgy: “Therefore with angels and archangels and all the company of heaven we laud and magnify thy glorious name, evermore praising Thee . It was the Communion of Saints in action!
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My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/26/2005 7:00:22 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear heavyduty:
You:
How can you tell what method of communication Jesus was using on the Mountain. The Bible doesn't say. So your definition of Prayer is simply Worship then? I'd say your definition is rather limited. How did you get this definition? Clearly Moses had died. Did Moses use sound waves when he talked? Had Moses been ressurrected before Jesus?
Me; Jesus was not praying to the OT saints. When Crhist prayed in the word-he prayed to God. And this is what he taught his apostles in the word.
Prayer is communing with God. We are to pray unceasingly in our spirit to his.
Prayer is our complete expression of 'whom' we trust and in purity' who' will intercede mediate and advocate for us. Who will hear us, and never forsake us. Who will remain with us and be our Savior Lord.
Prayer contains worshsip. praise, all honor glory and power to God-that God will meet our request when we ask in him name. Jesus said ask in my name-it will be given to you.
You: If I call up someone on the phone, I am not talking to them, in fact my voice is being translated into electronic signals which then get interpreted and come out as vibrations (sound) on the other end. Am I "praying" when I talk on the phone? Clearly I am not talking to the person I am communicating with I am talking to a little plastic device with holes in two ends and a wire. Do you think Heaven is not as "sophisticated" as we here on earth? They can't hear us because they don't have technology? What about email what about this forum, what about writing? I am not talking to anyone, in fact I can write something and it can be read hundereds of years later. I am communicating with someone in the future! Is this prayer?
Me: Jesus prayed To God. NO one else. AS the Incarnate he demonsrtated for us what we should also do. The gospel of God is about God and then his relationship with man, by grace. There is no other gospel of good news that saves us. Simply and purely: Jesus for mankind.
You: Perhaps I shouldn't talk to anyone unless they are in front of me because that would be considered "praying".
Me: Bless you. There is a huge difference to pray for someone that needs help, TO praying TO another being than God.
You: Is it the difference between communicating with someone who is alive versus dead? We know the Saints are alive with Christ. This is not a speculation. We do not talk to those who are dead and are not with Christ. It is not an obligation, but it also does not deserve condemnation. Who are you to judge? Asking a departed Saint for prayer is not a substitute for asking Jesus, neither is asking your pastor or priest for prayer a substitute for coming directly to God and yet the scriptures encourage us to go to others for prayer. This is intercessory prayer, asking others to pray for you. The method of communication is simply secondary whether it be by spirit or by electrons
Me: Bless you.
The word says that there is only one peacemaker between all men and God. His name is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. He is unlimited and unfathomable for everthing his body and the world need.
Let me be clear once again-TO pray TO ''another being'' than only TO God for the body of Christ, and even the world is a false faith, and not the good news of Jesus Christ.
"And we are in him who is true --- even in his son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
Grace and Peace
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/27/2005 9:34:57 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear heavyduty:
You:
How can you tell what method of communication Jesus was using on the Mountain. The Bible doesn't say. So your definition of Prayer is simply Worship then? I'd say your definition is rather limited. How did you get this definition? Clearly Moses had died. Did Moses use sound waves when he talked? Had Moses been ressurrected before Jesus?
Me; Jesus was not praying to the OT saints. When Crhist prayed in the word-he prayed to God. And this is what he taught his apostles in the word.
Prayer is communing with God. We are to pray unceasingly in our spirit to his.
Prayer is our complete expression of 'whom' we trust and in purity' who' will intercede mediate and advocate for us. Who will hear us, and never forsake us. Who will remain with us and be our Savior Lord.
Prayer contains worshsip. praise, all honor glory and power to God-that God will meet our request when we ask in him name. Jesus said ask in my name-it will be given to you.
You: If I call up someone on the phone, I am not talking to them, in fact my voice is being translated into electronic signals which then get interpreted and come out as vibrations (sound) on the other end. Am I "praying" when I talk on the phone? Clearly I am not talking to the person I am communicating with I am talking to a little plastic device with holes in two ends and a wire. Do you think Heaven is not as "sophisticated" as we here on earth? They can't hear us because they don't have technology? What about email what about this forum, what about writing? I am not talking to anyone, in fact I can write something and it can be read hundereds of years later. I am communicating with someone in the future! Is this prayer?
Me: Jesus prayed To God. NO one else. AS the Incarnate he demonsrtated for us what we should also do. The gospel of God is about God and then his relationship with man, by grace. There is no other gospel of good news that saves us. Simply and purely: Jesus for mankind | | |
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