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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/28/2005 10:22:14 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
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BTW, JC,
How many posts does it take until I graduate to something other than a "new member?"
Odd how one's history can be wiped out so easily. I suppose if the Apostles had Internet access, they could have just deleted all those pesky posts of Arius and others and they would have no need of taking Council. They could have hit the right keys and obliterated everything any heresiarch ever taught in word or writing [assuming the heresiarch had access to Word].
I'm not fond of the new smaces....they're kind of creepy, IMHO. So picture a simple, ancient smiley like this :) after my silly comments.
Pax Christi,
Michael
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/28/2005 10:30:35 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear sdaw:
"In the Eucharist, we stand in the eschatological moment, in the eternal moment in which we witness the sacrifice He makes for us. "
Me: This is witnessed not in THE one moment but
in every natural horrible moment of our lives, by faith.
It is not THE uncommon life, but the unpurified life at its daily presence that God delivers.
We stand in Christ because God has made us alive to him and we are so very sensitive to his presence because of God.
The bread that we take "reminds" us where his holy life is: daily.
It was a death ansd resurrection that brought this bread into us.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/28/2005 10:47:38 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Hi, Ms O,
I must rest before I work again in the early morning, so this will be brief. I'll do my best to get back to you on the rest of your post as soon as I possibly can.
quote:
What I don't understand is...why can't my understanding and deep belief in the meaning of the Eucharist be just as true for me as your understanding and deep belief in the meaning of the Eucharist??
I have no doubt that your belief and understanding of every aspect of the Christian faith is indeed "true for you." I don't recall saying anything to lead you to believe I doubted that fact. Not sure why you brought it up.
quote:
Are you trying to convince me ("spinning our wheels") that my understanding is wrong and if so, why? ("Avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.") To me, it would be totally foolish to miss the real meaning of something in order to prove that your way is "better."
To be perfectly honest, Ms O, I spend time here so that I might play a small part in dispelling the non-Catholic Christian mythological views of Catholic Christians as some sort of boogey-men who pretend to be Christian while we "worship" Mary and idols, and take part in cannibalism at Mass, and the list of misconceptions can go on and on....
I'm here because I want my non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters to know that sometimes they judge Catholics based on their preconceived notions, whether or not these false notions come from themselves or some pastor they listened to...they certainly do not come from Scripture "alone," though the sola Scriptura cry will go up from every evangelical camp if a "papist" happens to be in the room.
I'm here because I believe I must try my best to speak Truth truthfully, and Christ IS Truth and He prayed for unity in His Church. Apparently, something is missing in non-Catholic Christian circles, yet you might notice that Catholic participants here are actually able to answer for each other. Do you find that odd?
I'm here because I really do care, Ms O.
But right now....I have to get some sleep. I look forward to talking with you more. Please be patient...sometimes it's days before I can get back.
Peace of Christ,
Michael
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/28/2005 10:59:14 PM
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Ms.O
Posts: 93
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
To be perfectly honest, Ms O, I spend time here so that I might play a small part in dispelling the non-Catholic Christian mythological views of Catholic Christians as some sort of boogey-men who pretend to be Christian while we "worship" Mary and idols, and take part in cannibalism at Mass, and the list of misconceptions can go on and on....
I've never thought that myself. Sorry if that's the impression you get of non-catholics....
quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
I'm here because I want my non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters to know that sometimes they judge Catholics based on their preconceived notions, whether or not these false notions come from themselves or some pastor they listened to...they certainly do not come from Scripture "alone," though the sola Scriptura cry will go up from every evangelical camp if a "papist" happens to be in the room.
Again, sorry if that's the behavior you see from non-chatholic christians....we're not all like that. BTW....I don't even know what sola scripture or papist mean...! (nor do I care...sounds confusing....)
quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Apparently, something is missing in non-Catholic Christian circles, yet you might notice that Catholic participants here are actually able to answer for each other. Do you find that odd?
Not really. From what I know about catholics, there is pretty much only one catholic church and dogma...but I could be wrong. As far as Christians go, there are many different denominations and we don't all know what each other's denominations believe, beyond the basics. I don't have a problem with that. Personally I don't think that precludes unity in the church any more than kids in a family having differing personalities. They are still a family.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/28/2005 11:00:16 PM
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Ms.O
Posts: 93
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
I'm here because I really do care, Ms O.
I'm glad, Michael.
Me too.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 1:20:22 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ms.O
quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Sometimes, it appears we're all just spinning our wheels...
What I don't understand is...why can't my understanding and deep belief in the meaning of the Eucharist be just as true for me as your understanding and deep belief in the meaning of the Eucharist?? Are you trying to convince me ("spinning our wheels") that my understanding is wrong and if so, why? ("Avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.") To me, it would be totally foolish to miss the real meaning of something in order to prove that your way is "better."
You know that passage in the NT about meat offered to idols? Paul's response was....
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."
Praise the Lord that you and I honor and participate in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord and give thanks to Him for his incredible sacrifice! Do we really need to convince each other of anything different??
Dear Ms. O,
The discussion is about the real meaning. Either the elements become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, or they do not.
This is not a foolish controversy, but one that splints Christianity in half, and not just along Catholic/Protestant lines.
On the Feast of St. Hugh the Great
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 1:24:35 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear sdaw:
"In the Eucharist, we stand in the eschatological moment, in the eternal moment in which we witness the sacrifice He makes for us. "
Me: This is witnessed not in THE one moment but
in every natural horrible moment of our lives, by faith.
It is not THE uncommon life, but the unpurified life at its daily presence that God delivers.
We stand in Christ because God has made us alive to him and we are so very sensitive to his presence because of God.
The bread that we take "reminds" us where his holy life is: daily.
It was a death ansd resurrection that brought this bread into us.
Grace and Peace
Dear DeborahL,
The historical moment is not in conflict with the eschatological one. For us, there is time. For God, there is only the eternal Now which emcompasses all of history. In the Eucharist, we stand in His time however much it appears He stands in ours.
On the Feast of St. Hugh the Great
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 8:48:00 AM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear Sdaw:
"For God, there is only the eternal Now which emcompasses all of history. In the Eucharist, we stand in His time however much it appears He stands in ours"
His word teaches us: Jesus' offered his body to the eternal Spirit. This is where Jesus is and stands for us. Jesus' body is very much alive in the Spirit.
We cannot see his actual body and blood, in us. But he is there in fullness.
Jesus did not teach us to create his 'actual body' into an image.
Jesus said:
"'If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever --- the Spirit of truth.
The world cannot accept him,
because it neither sees him, nor knows him.
But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Before long, the world will NOT SEE me anymore,
but you will see me. Because I live you also will live.
On that day you will realize that I am IN my Father, and you are IN me, and I am IN you.'"
"'But I tell you the truth:
It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgememt:
in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
in regard to righteousness, becasue I am going to the father, WHERE YOU CAN SEE ME NO LONGER; and in regard to judgement, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.'"
"'He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit
will take from what is mine and make it known to you.'"
"'I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name --- the name you gave me --- so that they may be one as we are one.'"
Dear brother, Grace and Peace to you
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 11:00:16 AM
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facedown
Posts: 830
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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quote:
There are more than a couple of us that laugh at our "new member" status, given our 3,500 posts on the legacy site.
**Indeed**
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 12:13:52 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Praise God.
"'Sir they said,' 'from now on give us this bread.'
Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life.
He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
But as I told you, you have seen me and still do not believe.
All that the Father GIVES ME WILL come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
"At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, 'I am the bread that came down from heaven."
"'Stop grumbling among yourselves, Jesus answered'.
'No one can come to me
unless the Father who sent me draws him,
and I will raise him up at the last day.'"
Grace and Peace
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 12:55:26 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear Sdaw:
"For God, there is only the eternal Now which emcompasses all of history. In the Eucharist, we stand in His time however much it appears He stands in ours"
His word teaches us: Jesus' offered his body to the eternal Spirit. This is where Jesus is and stands for us. Jesus' body is very much alive in the Spirit.
We cannot see his actual body and blood, in us. But he is there in fullness.
Jesus did not teach us to create his 'actual body' into an image.
Jesus said:
"'If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever --- the Spirit of truth.
The world cannot accept him,
because it neither sees him, nor knows him.
But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Before long, the world will NOT SEE me anymore,
but you will see me. Because I live you also will live.
On that day you will realize that I am IN my Father, and you are IN me, and I am IN you.'"
"'But I tell you the truth:
It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgememt:
in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
in regard to righteousness, becasue I am going to the father, WHERE YOU CAN SEE ME NO LONGER; and in regard to judgement, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.'"
"'He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit
will take from what is mine and make it known to you.'"
"'I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name --- the name you gave me --- so that they may be one as we are one.'"
Dear brother, Grace and Peace to you
Dear DeborahL,
In the Eucharist, where Christ is, we go.
On the Feast of St. Hugh the Great
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 2:48:01 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear Sdaw:
"In the Eucharist, where Christ is, we go."
In our sprit to His Spirit , where Christ is, we go.
Jesus is very real and alive in the Spirit.
Jesus offered his body to the Spirit-he died and rose-and lives in us.
Thank God that he made us alive with his Son, the true bread.
I thank God that his Son, the true bread from heaven, is testified in me:
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
and you have been given the fullness in Christ,
who is the head over every power and authority.
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
having been
buried with him in baptism and
raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."
"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive
because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life
to your mortal bodies
through his Spirit,
who lives in you."
Grace and Peace
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/29/2005 4:56:17 PM
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jfkar
Posts: 2
Joined: 4/29/2005
Status: offline
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Dear DeborahL -
I used to think almost exactly like you do. I had so much of the Lord's presence in my life and so many genuine spiritual experiences, without any real understanding of the Lord's Supper or much appreciation for it beyond a pretty strange symbol and meal of commemoration. The idea that he somehow becomes embodied in bread and wine seemed superstitious and silly to me, and taking Communion was anything but central to my spirituality and worship.
But (and I believe you are experiencing the same thing), I couldn't put all the biblical pieces together. The words of Jesus in John 6 and the others you've quoted, and the words of Jesus in the accounts of the Last Supper, and Paul's description of what the Lord's Supper are all complementing each other. It's not either/or; it's both/and. It's not just faith and prayer that bring Jesus' life and Spirit into us, andit's not just the Lord's Supper that brings Jesus' presence to us; they all do.
John Wesley, who was the greatest revivalist in the history of the church, called all the ways God comes to us "means of Grace:" reading Scripture, prayer, fasting, fellowship, worship and the Lord's Supper. If you think about it, all these things involve the physical and the Spirit working together. Your Bible is a manmade, physical book made of paper and ink. When you read it, you use physical eyes which pick up physical light and translate it into sensible communication in your physical brain.
The same is true if someone reads Scripture to you or preaches: their physical voice vibrates the air which hits your eardrums and those vibrations translate into sensible thoughts in your physical brain that carry the very presence and power of God to your inner being.
Think about prayer, praise and meditation, and you'll see that they are all a blend of the physical and the "manmade" and the Spirit of God.
Wesley said, however, "I have found much power in prayer and in preaching, but I have found more in the Eucharist (Lord's Supper)." For someone like Wesley to say that makes me jump!
You're absolutely right when you say that God comes to us in answer to prayer, directly and unmediated (by His Spirit) and enters into us through faith in Jesus, breathing His life into our spirits, apart from the mediating elements of water, bread or wine. But He also comes to us, in a different way and with a different quality, through physical signs/elements.
It all fits together. The same Scriptures that command us to "believe unto salvation" command us to "Take, Eat" in remembrance of Christ who, very cryptically, said "This [bread] is My Body and this [wine] is my blood." True faith results in obedience, so we need to "do this" in obedient faith.
It doesn't mean we don't have Christ's presence or a vital relationship with him in other contexts as well. It just means that, in this context--the context of the Lord's Supper--something special of His presence is made available to us that is not (ordinarily) available to us through prayer and faith alone or, in fact, trough other "means of grace."
Also, Paul said clearly that we must "discern the body and blood of the Lord" in the Lord's Supper. But, of course, this can only be done by faith in his and Jesus' words concerning the bread and wine.
Your objection to the bread and wine and the meal being "manmade" is, IMO, missing the point. God does not despise matter. He made it and called it "very good." He literally "became flesh" in the incarnation. And He concentrates His presence in physical/material things throughout both the Old and New Testaments. This is what I call "incarnational reality" and these "images," as you rather disdainfully call them, were ordained by God Himself!
OT examples of physical objects that carried/conveyed God's presence include the staff of Moses, the hair of Samson, the Ark of the Covenant, the blood of sprinkling in the Tabernacle and Temple, and the anointing oil poured on David and more.
New Testament examples include the clay Jesus made with His spittle and put on a blind man's eyes, the hands of the apostles, the cloths taken from Paul to the sick and possessed, the olive oil that James commands the elders to anoint the sick with. (These things are often called 'sacramentals'.)
But in Baptism and the Lord's Supper, God's presence and power are conveyed to us with a dimension and a power that is not ordinarily available to us simply through faith apart from the physical signs. This is not manmade doctrine, however: this is what God, Jesus and his apostles clearly ordained and commanded in the Word of God.
So to be completely biblical, you need both faith in Jesus directly and in the God-ordained physical-spiritual signs.
And remember: the New Testament was written to Christians in the first century, all of whom believed in the literal meaning of Jesus' words: "This is my body; This is my blood." The early Church was liturgical, sacramental, evangelical and charismatic!
So when they read the New Testament documents, they read them in that context. In other words, both the authors of the NT and their original readers ("target audience") would have understood every single verse you've quoted as referring or in some way relating to the presence of Jesus both direct and unmediated and mediated through the Sacraments, especially the Lord's Supper.
So the next time you take the Lord's Supper, I would just encourage you to trust Jesus to be even more real, solid and personally present to your Spirit as you eat and drink the (manmade) bread and wine, because however you interpret John 6, He clearly said elsewhere that they embody His Presence in a special way.
My life changed when I saw these things. I didn't convert to Roman Catholicism, but I began to expect the Lord to come to me and feed me in a special way through Communion, and He does! I still enjoy his unmediated presence in all kinds of places and situations, through simple faith in His Word and by His Spirit; but I find Him nearest and most tangible in the wafer and the chalice.
And there is a lot of healing--both spiritual, emotional and physical--in the Eucharist.
Every blessing from your loving brother,
- J. Williams
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/1/2005 8:20:12 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Praise God. For all he is and has done, for his creation:
Dear J. Williams;
You: I used to think almost exactly like you do. I had so much of the Lord's presence in my life and so many genuine spiritual experiences, without any real understanding of the Lord's Supper or much appreciation for it beyond a pretty strange symbol and meal of commemoration.
Me: I am sorry I do not see your pretty way, and what you think of me.
I take God's word and it is not a symbol, nor pretty. It was his blood shed once-and this blood lives in Spirit, and the bread, his acutal body lives in Spirit. Thank God he gave me his Son via HIS Spirit. Or else I would have no way, no truth, and no life.
Btw--that is the awesome beauty of God.
Jeswus said he and the Father give the true bread--he said my flesh and blood are real--and the words I have spoken are spirit and life--Jesus said he offered his real body to the eteranl Spirit-and that is where his actual body resides for the believer.
Jesus did NOT teach us to create his 'actual body' into man made bread.
For he has ascended and gone where he once was before.
He feeds us by his actual body in the Spirit.
To think MAN can ''create'' him to eat him--is not what he said in his last supper.
This is then, a violation of his command.
Please take another twenty points off. :) Praise God. I love you.
You: The idea that he somehow becomes embodied in bread and wine seemed superstitious and silly to me, and taking Communion was anything but central to my spirituality and worship.
But (and I believe you are experiencing the same thing), I couldn't put all the biblical pieces together. The words of Jesus in John 6 and the others you've quoted, and the words of Jesus in the accounts of the Last Supper, and Paul's description of what the Lord's Supper are all complementing each other. It's not either/or; it's both/and.
Me: NO. --I have no problem. He is Spriit.
It is ONLY his actual body IN Spirit and Truth.
The flesh does not count nor profit. This is what the Jews did not want to accept, when Jesus discussed his real fleah and blood. Where would it be? Why--it has risen--and livs in the Spriit for us. Man is not taught to craete his actual from Spirit for us--when he lives there IN fullness for us. Praise God my spriit is alive!!!
..That the Christ, could ""feed them spiritually"". AMEN. The Spirit is alive, real, and testifies the resurrected body of Christ.
We cannot create Jesus' "actual body into any man made bread". For the true bread of heaven is Jesus himself in the Spirit, and he lives in "fullness" in each believer.
It is unpopular--but I am more concerned with pleasing my Lord, and telling the truth, in love.
Take another twenty points off. Amen. :)
You: It's not just faith and prayer that bring Jesus' life and Spirit into us, and it's not just the Lord's Supper that brings Jesus' presence to us; they all do.
Me: We have Jesus made alive with us by """the Father""", and to stand firm in him. Take forty points off. ...:)
I am sorry the word of God is simple and clear, that we do not create his body into manmade substances or his real image that lives in us in fullness. According to his testimonyand why he died. The fAtehr and him provide. Take sixty off.
Nor does an earthly priest do this concecration, for God has placed only one seal of approval to concecrate his children: His Son. OPPs take 100 off. Get it? Praise God.
For there is only one who received GOD's SEAL of approval. Jesus concecreates 'himself' to us by faith through his fullness in the Spirit-where he place his body, his offering,
NO ONE TRANSFORMS HIM.
You: John Wesley, who was the greatest revivalist in the history of the church, called all the ways God comes to us "means of Grace:" reading Scripture, prayer, fasting, fellowship, worship and the Lord's Supper. If you think about it, all these things involve the physical and the Spirit working together. Your Bible is a manmade, physical book made of paper and ink. When you read it, you use physical eyes which pick up physical light and translate it into sensible communication in your physical brain.
The same is true if someone reads Scripture to you or preaches: their physical voice vibrates the air which hits your eardrums and those vibrations translate into sensible thoughts in your physical brain that carry the very presence and power of God to your inner being.
Think about prayer, praise and meditation, and you'll see that they are all a blend of the physical and the "manmade" and the Spirit of God.
Wesley said, however, "I have found much power in prayer and in preaching, but I have found more in the Eucharist (Lord's Supper)." For someone like Wesley to say that makes me jump!
You're absolutely right when you say that God comes to us in answer to prayer, directly and unmediated (by His Spirit) and enters into us through faith in Jesus, breathing His life into our spirits, apart from the mediating elements of water, bread or wine. But He also comes to us, in a different way and with a different quality, through physical signs/elements.
It all fits together. The same Scriptures that command us to "believe unto salvation" command us to "Take, Eat" in remembrance of Christ who, very cryptically, said "This [bread] is My Body and this [wine] is my blood." True faith results in obedience, so we need to "do this" in obedient faith.
It doesn't mean we don't have Christ's presence or a vital relationship with him in other contexts as well. It just means that, in this context--the context of the Lord's Supper--something special of His presence is made available to us that is not (ordinarily) available to us through prayer and faith alone or, in fact, trough other "means of grace."
Me: The word of God is the greatest. And it is not difficult. The simple gospel is pure and I devote myself to it.
The word says that all of God's promises are yes and the Amen in Christ.
I can ony approach Christ by faith.
Not with man made creations that example the fullness of HIS Sprirt IN me. Btw--take another twenty points off. :).
I am here in this difficult thread for one reason:
Christ has died and lives in the Spirit.
I am the new creation because of his actual body in me.
There is no greater fullness of Jesus than to believe he is our hope and glory, that lives to sanctify us--to make our hearts senstive to what is love, and what is truth.
... No golden calf, no silver and no idol painted, sculpted or ''baked'', NOR LIVNG IN A FANCY ROBE--can be 'made by the hand of men', his actual--living body.
Than the hands of God that circumcises our very heart.
Grace and Peace
God lives in us in fullness by Spirit--that is where we feed on him. For we are the new creation, rescued in fullness in Christ.
And that is where the fullness of him exisits. To be overcomeer, and victor no mate if you are the least of the member or the greatest.
NO idols to gaze at, but hope and gory that lives in us.
Grace an dpeace to you.
And Praise God.
Also, Paul said clearly that we must "discern the body and blood of the Lord" in the Lord's Supper. But, of course, this can only be done by faith in his and Jesus' words concerning the bread and wine.
Your objection to the bread and wine and the meal being "manmade" is, IMO, missing the point. God does not despise matter. He made it and called it "very good." He literally "became flesh" in the incarnation. And He concentrates His presence in physical/material things throughout both the Old and New Testaments. This is what I call "incarnational reality" and these "images," as you rather disdainfully call them, were ordained by God Himself!
OT examples of physical objects that carried/conveyed God's presence include the staff of Moses, the hair of Samson, the Ark of the Covenant, the blood of sprinkling in the Tabernacle and Temple, and the anointing oil poured on David and more.
New Testament examples include the clay Jesus made with His spittle and put on a blind man's eyes, the hands of the apostles, the cloths taken from Paul to the sick and possessed, the olive oil that James commands the elders to anoint the sick with. (These things are often called 'sacramentals'.)
But in Baptism and the Lord's Supper, God's presence and power are conveyed to us with a dimension and a power that is not ordinarily available to us simply through faith apart from the physical signs. This is not manmade doctrine, however: this is what God, Jesus and his apostles clearly ordained and commanded in the Word of God.
So to be completely biblical, you need both faith in Jesus directly and in the God-ordained physical-spiritual signs.
And remember: the New Testament was written to Christians in the first century, all of whom believed in the literal meaning of Jesus' words: "This is my body; This is my blood." The early Church was liturgical, sacramental, evangelical and charismatic!
So when they read the New Testament documents, they read them in that context. In other words, both the authors of the NT and their original readers ("target audience") would have understood every single verse you've quoted as referring or in some way relating to the presence of Jesus both direct and unmediated and mediated through the Sacraments, especially the Lord's Supper.
So the next time you take the Lord's Supper, I would just encourage you to trust Jesus to be even more real, solid and personally present to your Spirit as you eat and drink the (manmade) bread and wine, because however you interpret John 6, He clearly said elsewhere that they embody His Presence in a special way.
My life changed when I saw these things. I didn't convert to Roman Catholicism, but I began to expect the Lord to come to me and feed me in a special way through Communion, and He does! I still enjoy his unmediated presence in all kinds of places and situations, through simple faith in His Word and by His Spirit; but I find Him nearest and most tangible in the wafer and the chalice.
And there is a lot of healing--both spiritual, emotional and physical--in the Eucharist.
Every blessing from your loving brother,
- J. Williams
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/1/2005 11:06:59 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear J williams: so sorry for the lack of editing. Amd the spelling error even previous.
You: So the next time you take the Lord's Supper, I would just encourage you to trust Jesus to be even more real, solid and personally present to your Spirit as you eat and drink the (manmade) bread and wine, because however you interpret John 6, He clearly said elsewhere that they embody His Presence in a special way.
Me: Spirit.
But not in made made bread.--I trust God.--He did not teach, to make him into another body.
Grace and peace
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/2/2005 9:18:00 AM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
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Dear J Williams: (continued)
You: Also, Paul said clearly that we must "discern the body and blood of the Lord" in the Lord's Supper. But, of course, this can only be done by faith in his and Jesus' words concerning the bread and wine.
Me: Not to 'see' his actual body in manmade breads, imho: to discern, examine, that "Christ is in you".
Paul did not teach us to make images of Christ's 'actual body'. That would violate God's command. We come to participate communion "in rememberance".
You: Your objection to the bread and wine and the meal being "manmade" is, IMO, missing the point.
Me: Imho-the point:
Jesus tells us that he and the Father give us the true bread, the actual body and blood of Christ, from heaven. The Father has placed his seal of approval on Christ--not on earthly priests to concecrate and transform his body.
The truth: Jesus died and lives in Spirit in us. The true bread lives in us and remains with us by the Spirit.
If Christ did not die, there would be no one time offering to the Spirit for the reality of what and where is forgiveness and life.
You: God does not despise matter. He made it and called it "very good." He literally "became flesh" in the incarnation. And He concentrates His presence in physical/material things throughout both the Old and New Testaments. This is what I call "incarnational reality" and these "images," as you rather disdainfully call them, were ordained by God Himself!
Me: Imho-I am not disdaining God's word.
The word simply declares that Christ offered his body to the eternal Spirit. This is where the true bread is, with our spirit to HIS Spirit.
God desires that we 'believe' that his Son is real and a living Savior who will sustain us.
God dos not teach us to recreate his Son's actual body, that died and rose to live in fullnes in us by the Spirit, into a man made images.
God's word says he and the Son will give us the true bread, his actual body and blood, from heaven. His Spirit is where there is 'life'.
{oops---:) take 100 points off. However it is God's word, and it is truth. I am sorry that is unacceptable-imo to you and many others. I am not ashamed of his gospel.}
You: OT examples of physical objects that carried/conveyed God's presence include the staff of Moses, the hair of Samson, the Ark of the Covenant, the blood of sprinkling in the Tabernacle and Temple, and the anointing oil poured on David and more.
New Testament examples include the clay Jesus made with His spittle and put on a blind man's eyes, the hands of the apostles, the cloths taken from Paul to the sick and possessed, the olive oil that James commands the elders to anoint the sick with. (These things are often called 'sacramentals'.)
But in Baptism and the Lord's Supper, God's presence and power are conveyed to us with a dimension and a power that is not ordinarily available to us simply through faith apart from the physical signs. This is not manmade doctrine, however: this is what God, Jesus and his apostles clearly ordained and commanded in the Word of God.
Me: Imho-Simply and to topic:
God's word does not teach us to create, transform, or manufacture his Son's(GOD's) body into manmade breads. The OT law did not teach to create, transform, manufacture God's actual body into the sacrifices, or burnt offerings or sin offerings.
God's presence and power are in fullness in the believer. Spirit.
Not made into idols.
You: So to be completely biblical, you need both faith in Jesus directly and in the God-ordained physical-spiritual
And remember: the New Testament was written to Christians in the first century, all of whom believed in the literal meaning of Jesus' words: "This is my body; This is my blood." The early Church was liturgical, sacramental, evangelical and charismatic!
Me: Jesus and Paul did not teach to create, transform, manufacture God's body into man made images. This would violate God's commands
His body has risen and lives in Spirit.
We participate and celebrate our Lord.
What he has done and continues to do in us-as 'his word' says: "in rememberance" of what his 'actual body' accomplished at the cross.
You: So when they read the New Testament documents, they read them in that context. In other words, both the authors of the NT and their original readers ("target audience") would have understood every single verse you've quoted as referring or in some way relating to the presence of Jesus both direct and unmediated and mediated through the Sacraments, especially the Lord's Supper.
Me: I have not read where the practices of the law, taught the Jews to create, manufacture, transform 'God's actual body' into man made forms.
You: So the next time you take the Lord's Supper, I would just encourage you to trust Jesus to be even more real, solid and personally present to your Spirit
Me: Bless you.
Praise God! HE IS very real in complete fullness in his Spirit to ours. The Spirit is where His actual body and blood are(since Jesus offered himself: to the Spirit) and being testified. He is the new and living way.
You: as you eat and drink the (manmade) bread and wine, because however you interpret John 6, He clearly said elsewhere that they embody His Presence in a special way.
Me: I believe his word: He says the Father and I will give you the true bread. Amen!
God's bread never spoils and endures for life!
You: My life changed when I saw these things. I didn't convert to Roman Catholicism, but I began to expect the Lord to come to me and feed me in a special way through Communion, and He does! I still enjoy his unmediated presence in all kinds of places and situations, through simple faith in His Word and by His Spirit; but I find Him nearest and most tangible in the wafer and the chalice.
And there is a lot of healing--both spiritual, emotional and physical--in the Eucharist.
Me: Communion is a very special time of fellowship.
However his ''actual body'' is real and testified in fullness in us, by his Spirit to ours. Not remade by us. But the true bread given directly by God.
"And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Dear Children, keep yourselves from idols."
Grace and Peace to you
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/2/2005 10:55:34 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
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DeborahL drones on....
quote:
God's word does not teach us to create, transform, or manufacture his Son's(GOD's) body into manmade breads. The OT law did not teach to create, transform, manufacture God's actual body into the sacrifices, or burnt offerings or sin offerings.
Right, Deborah. When will you stop arguing against the strawmen arguments that you create all by yourself? And when will you begin to recognize the fact that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity, called the "Word of God" in Scripture, and that He is not a book?
Just maybe the Scripture you read sola will make a bit more sense if you stop equating our Savior to a book of compiled writings. If we must shun every form of "idolatry," Deborah, I'm afraid there are many non-Catholic Christians who tend to worship a book. I've interacted with them in real life...not only here.
Something to think on,
Michael
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/3/2005 9:28:28 AM
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facedown
Posts: 830
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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quote:
Jesus did NOT teach us to create his 'actual body' into man made bread.....He feeds us by his actual body in the Spirit.To think MAN can ''create'' him to eat him--is not what he said in his last supper.
.
Interesting thoughts, that you claim others are attempting to "Create his "actual body". How do you verify this claim? Because some believe in the "real presence"? How much do you understand of the theology and doctrine of those you are opposed to, and the varying degrees of said theology, aside from the phrase "real presence" or "body and blood"?
Also, I understand that when you say "He feeds us by his actual body in the Spirit" you have a "however" in that "however, not during the Eucharist". Or said more fully (agian, this is my understanding of what you have been trying to say) "You feast on Christ all the time, except when partaking of Communion".
Your last sentence in the quote above displays the answer to my previous question about how much you are aware of in regards to the teaching you believe you are against. Man does not believe that he can create God to eat God.
Peace
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/3/2005 3:50:22 PM
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bettyg51
Posts: 28
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Me: Not to 'see' his actual body in manmade breads, imho: to discern, examine, that "Christ is in you".
Paul did not teach us to make images of Christ's 'actual body'. That would violate God's command. We come to participate communion "in rememberance".
Deborah,
When Our Lord said "Do this in remembrance of me", he was using the word remembrance with a special meaning. The Jewish to this day when they celebrate Passover it is as if "every Jew should regard himself as though he were freed from Egyptian slavery". At Passover, the third or fourth cup of wine is called the Cup of Elijah. They set an extra place setting for Elijah to remind themselves that Elijah is there with them. The "perpetual memorial" of Passover makes a past event present in the here and now, as if it is currently happening. This is not the same kind of memorial as just imagining a past event.
For Catholics, the Eucharist makes present the Last Supper/Passion/Resurrection event. The wine Jesus drank on the Cross is the Cup of Elijah that he did not drink at the Last Supper and that he promised he would not drink till then. The Eucharist is a re-presentation of Calvary that makes those who participate present at Calvary. God is outside space and time, so that is how this is possible. The Eucharist celebrates the new covenant Jesus made with us.
The word "remembrance" in English does not convey all the meaning with which Jesus said it.
Betty G.
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/3/2005 4:24:12 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear Michael:
You: DeborahL drones on....
Me: Bless you.
Me: God's word does not teach us to create, transform, or manufacture his Son's(GOD's) body into manmade breads. The OT law did not teach to create, transform, manufacture God's actual body into the sacrifices, or burnt offerings or sin offerings.
You: Right, Deborah. When will you stop arguing against the strawmen arguments that you create all by yourself? And when will you begin to recognize the fact that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity, called the "Word of God" in Scripture, and that He is not a book?
Me: This is a false statement. Please reread my posts. I have suppoerted my thought with the word. I have repeatedly stated that 'God' gives us the true bread and this is Jesus via Spirit to spirit.
We are not taught to make an idol, shape or image of our God's body.
You: Just maybe the Scripture you read sola will make a bit more sense if you stop equating our Savior to a book of compiled writings. If we must shun every form of "idolatry," Deborah, I'm afraid there are many non-Catholic Christians who tend to worship a book. I've interacted with them in real life...not only here.
Me: This is another false statement.
I have not equated Christ to compiled writings.
Imho-you ned to reread, carefully.
Let us staying on topic we are discussing-eating his 'actaul body' from man made images/idol and shape that we concerate. The word dos not teach us to do this. Nor Jesus.
You: Something to think on,
Me:
"We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us OF his Spirit."
Grace and Peace
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/3/2005 4:50:54 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear facedown:
You: Interesting thoughts, that you claim others are attempting to "Create his "actual body". How do you verify this claim? Because some believe in the "real presence"? How much do you understand of the theology and doctrine of those you are opposed to, and the varying degrees of said theology, aside from the phrase "real presence" or "body and blood"?
Me: I understand that God will give us the true bread. He is Spirit and this is where Christ's actual body is, testified, alive, present, and powerful.
We are not taught to shape our living God into an image.
You: Also, I understand that when you say "He feeds us by his actual body in the Spirit" you have a "however" in that "however, not during the Eucharist". Or said more fully (agian, this is my understanding of what you have been trying to say) "You feast on Christ all the time, except when partaking of Communion".
Me: God is Spirit. Not made into an image of his 'actual body'.
"However His 'actual body' is real and testified in fullnes, in us, by his Spirit to ours." I assume this is the statement from a previous post. Communion is a special time of fellowship. Partaking in 'rememberance of me, as Jesus said.
What his actual body did and does for us, at the cross.
I have repeatedly said:
We feast on Jesus by depending (God's work in us: to believe) on his actaul body that was offered to the eternal Spirit for us. He will wash and ''renew'' our inner man. His reality IS testified in Spirit-not made in an image.
You: Your last sentence in the quote above
The last sentence in your quote: 'Or said more fully (agian, this is my understanding of what you have been trying to say) "You feast on Christ all the time, except when partaking of Communion".'
-please tell me where you read this. I believe your thought is erroneous to what I have repeatedly said.
You: displays the answer to my previous question about how much you are aware of in regards to the teaching you believe you are against.
Me: Bless you
I completely trust what Jesus has said and taught.
He said the he and the Father give us the 'true bread from heaven'. It is not complicated--I will not add other teachings nor take away his glory.
Grace and Peace
Grace and Peace to you
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RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 5/3/2005 5:09:34 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear Betty:
You: When Our Lord said "Do this in remembrance of me", he was using the word remembrance with a special meaning.
Me: I take what he said literally--no hidden meaning.
You: The Jewish to this day when they celebrate Passover it is as if "every Jew should regard himself as though he were freed from Egyptian slavery". At Passover, the third or fourth cup of wine is called the Cup of Elijah. They set an extra place setting for Elijah to remind themselves that Elijah is there with them. The "perpetual memorial" of Passover makes a past event present in the here and now, as if it is currently happening. This is not the same kind of memorial as just imagining a past event.
For Catholics, the Eucharist makes present the Last Supper/Passion/Resurrection event. The wine Jesus drank on the Cross is the Cup of Elijah that he did not drink at the Last Supper and that he promised he would not drink till then. The Eucharist is a re-presentation of Calvary that makes those who participate present at Calvary. God is outside space and time, so that is how this is possible. The Eucharist celebrates the new covenant Jesus made with us.
The word "remembrance" in English does not convey all the meaning with which Jesus said it.
Me: Betty, my husband who was a Jew now a NT believer --confirmed that the OT practices of God's law never taught they were eating the 'actual body' of God in the sacrifices, burnt and sin offerings.
And this is simply, what this topic is about.
In the NT Paul, as well as our Lord, do not teach us that the Lord's ''actual body'' is made into an image, shape or idol. However: they teach us Jesus' actual body IS real alive and present in us by his Spirit with ours. And that we have the fullness of Christ-who is the true bread, because of God's work in us--by faith.
"Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.'"
Grace and Peace
--"As for you, the anointing you received from him REMAINS in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But, as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit --- just as it has taught you, remain in him.
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