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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 1:02:32 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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In regards to repentance and faith. Repentance is part and parcel of preaching the gospel. "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"
is the opening statement from Jesus to begin his earthly ministry.
Freegrace evidently thinks its presupposition faith being absent from repentance is a norm of gospel teaching. The scriptures do not disconnect faith from repentance anymore than it disconnects faith from Christ.
The question was raised Ok. quote:
You make a statement and then you go to another book of the Bible to support it. Please make your case out of John. If you believe that believing is not enough for salvation (according to John), then please show where John says that believing is not enough to be saved. Please show where (in Romans or Galatians) Paul says that faith is not enough to be saved.
The answer is simple.
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Many believed....Jesus did not commit himself to them.
This kind of belief was startling to John, it was a deficient belief and he spent the next 23 verses in John 3 talking about it.
Nicodemus was the perfect example of a man whom "believed that he (Jesus) was sent from God, for no man can do these miracles..."
Yet Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again.
Jesus seperated the belief of Nicodemus from spiritual birth and entry into the kingdom of God.
It is this kind of belief, the belief that one may hold as in name only that they believe in Jesus and yet not be born again. Freegrace is in a sense telling us to look the other way on people like those in John 2:23 because they acknowledge a belief in Christ.
Again in John
4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41And many more believed because of his own word;
42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
The Samaritans themselves abandoned the second hand belief of the woman at the well for a more precise belief, one that took them all the way to acknowledging " this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."
John very clearly speaks of a deficient belief and a believing that obtains Christ.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 1:04:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From the FreeGrace perspective and in reference my quote form Boice:
"Another frequent teaching is that an individual who does not continue in good works until death (or one who persists in a life of sin) will not see heaven’s door. Some believe the offender loses his salvation, while others believe he was never saved in the first place. That difference, however, is immaterial as the same individual arrives at the same place (hell) for the same reason (lack of perseverance). Perseverance in good works has thereby become an additional condition for gaining entrance into heaven.
Here, the Free Grace concern is transparent because such teaching does not harmonize with justification by faith alone, apart from works. Paul writes, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph 2:8-9)."
http://www.faithalone.org/news/y2007/purtzer1.htm
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 1:16:08 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
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quote:
In regards to repentance and faith. Repentance is part and parcel of preaching the gospel. "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"
is the opening statement from Jesus to begin his earthly ministry.
Freegrace evidently thinks its presupposition faith being absent from repentance is a norm of gospel teaching. The scriptures do not disconnect faith from repentance anymore than it disconnects faith from Christ.
That's not true. You're not going to help if you make accusations like that which purport some extreme position by the Free Grace position.
It depends on how we define repentance. And there's the rub. If we define repentance as "stop sinning," then I agree that it is not a precondition for salvation. But that's not the only definition there is. There are actually several, depending on the context. And we MUST NOT confine our definition to repentance to the one that suits us best.
If we define repentance as "turn to God," then we are speaking of repentance in most general terms--but it is essentially correct but not specific enough. Further, when you quote John the Baptist, you are making certain assumptions. One of them is that he is speaking of the individual conditions for salvation. He's speaking to national Israel calling the entire nation to turn to God in preparation for the Messiah. If he were speaking of individual salvation, why did he not add: "believe on the Messiah"?
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 7:04:47 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
The answer is simple.
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
I'm not sure how you think it proves your point. So, He didn't trust Himself to them. That means they weren't saved? Aren't you doing eisegesis there?
Let's note that it doesn't even answer my question about repentance in John.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 8:28:33 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
I'm not sure how you think it proves your point. So, He didn't trust Himself to them. That means they weren't saved? Aren't you doing eisegesis there?
Let's note that it doesn't even answer my question about repentance in John.
Graham:
My exogesis was correct, the meanings John the Apostle spoke of are in my usage of the text.
Repentance and faith being preached together are consistent with the gospel message of scripture.
Repentance follows God giving it, Faith follows God giving it, sinful men await their freedom from the power of sin, they do not set themselves free.
Let us look at repentance and belief.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not; but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
The belief that was a credit to publicans and harlots was not in the Chief priests and elders.
They did not repent of their sins, therefore belief was absent from their hearts, Jesus clearly said so.
The Free grace position is so determined to rid the thought of any works effecting justification that they are now insistant on pulling apart scripture and mystifying the easily understood texts concerning repentance and faith.
What Freegracer's must understand is that scripture must bend and shape doctrines of justification by faith, not their doctrine bend and shape scripture.
Somehow or another the doctrine of justification by faith has become so skewed that preaching of repentance and expecting that repentance to validate the persons true belief structure is
now adding works to salvation. It is not.
The behavior of the Chief priests and elders revealed the kind of belief which indwelt them. It was a deficient belief, one that was hostile to Christ all the while busy with religious duty.
Jesus understood justification by faith better than all of us, His preaching was formulated to present the message of His Father in its purest form. If Jesus says that the Chief priests and elders behavior betrayed their belief and rather showed unbelief its best to believe Christ.
Whatever definition you place upon repentance, it must be consistent with the desired outcome of Gods intent. That intent is removal of thought and action which is born of that emnity which our sinful natures have produced in our unsaved condition. If turning to God or turning away from sin or changing your mind is a godly repentance it will have that desired effect of obtaining the approval of God. This is a repentance not to be repented of.
The above text taken from Jesus teachings in Matthew was to reveal to them their belief in God was not consistent with God's repentance or faith. It was devoid of connection to God personally.
Those whom they considered 'sinful' and 'wicked' because of their behavior in the past, Jesus considered "believing" and able to enter the kingdom of God. The Priests and elders had a belief that shut them out of the kingdom of God, and if you were to ask them, they would give you a whole old testament worth of justifications for their 'belief'.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 9:05:34 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Lordship salvation which my detractors call false has every proper foundation upon which to set itself forth as the legitimate form of salvation which Christ gives to men. A false dividing up of salvation in the form of 'savior' salvation and 'lord salvation' is all human invention. There is only one salvation from one Savior and Lord who cannot be divided.
As we try to understand the gospel we at times seperate the various attributes of Christ so as to see clearly the wonderful workings of His salvation as a Lord or as a Savior. When we rejoice in Christ as Savior we understand that grace and mercy that respects our sinfulness and rebellion. The removal of our worst sins to the smallest thought of evil is cleansed by the precious blood of Christ. We rejoice in the Lordship of Christ, ruling our lives with justice and righteousness, training us in living as disciples so that our imitation is faithful to the reality of holiness in Christ. But though we divide the grace and mercies unto a Savior and obey Lordship to display our faithfulness to Christ we are never to understand that Christ is divided because our small minds handle theology in very small segmented portions. The divisions of Savior and Lord in our theology do not represent the truth in Christ. If we transfer our smallness of mind to the glorious power of God and attempt to divide Christ because we learned Christ in divided portions our divisions are now false-divisions and our preaching is misrepresentative of the Lord and Savior that offers salvation as a whole Christ.
So it is with the truine God, though we explore our Christologies and pnumatologies we cannot divide the Spirit of God from Christ. God is one, though revealed triune and preached triune our preaching becomes heresy when it become tritheism. The revelation of God has boundries, when the revelation of the Son of God and the revelation of the Father God are left divided so that men begin to think the Triune God is 3 Gods our theologies which were our teachers have now been superceeded by assumptions and those assumptions lead us away from the very teachings of truth that the doctrine of the trinity intends to prevent.
Lordship salvation is Savior salvation because there is only one salvation and only one Christ that died and was raised from the dead.
The freegrace position attempts to be a corrective to so called "discipling unbelievers". Its insistance that works are being added to salvation because unbelievers are being discipled before conversion. This may or may not be of God. I dont see discipling of unbelievers which is nothing more than gospel training so that they might believe as false.
This very thing Christ did with the apostles.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 9:31:46 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Discipling before conversion.
Every church that bares the name of Christ offers discipling to unbelievers in the form of repentance, obedience to the law, prayers, faith, bible reading, submission to leadership, scripture authority, family patterned after biblical ideals.
These things bare the marks of morality and the instilling of Christian value and worldview even while they are unsaved. There is nothing improper or deficient in leading the unsaved in this direction. This serves as a basis for their gaining understanding, the Spirit of God adding his blessing and opening their minds to the truth of the gospel.
We are so accustomed to 'instant'. Instant conversion, instant disciple, instant revelation etc.
If one were to see the hearts of many people in the church pew one might be amazed at just how much 'discipling before conversion' is going on. Is this not the basis upon which youth groups and childrens church are formulated and promoted to the intent conversion would take place in God's time? It is and we all know it.
It is remarkable how the Spirit of God saves and enlightens the minds of those who were utterly devoid of Christian teachings and knowledge of Jesus Christ. But this remarkable move of God is not to be regarded as the 'necessity' so that free gracers can say "we dont try and disciple the unsaved" so that they can adhere to some formulation of justification by grace alone.
To me it is all so much contradiction and misrepresentation. The end result is the glorious gospel of Christ is minimalized and key doctrinal points are supposedly removed so that no works of men will interfere with the salvation of God. The reality is, mans works never interfere with the salvation of God. God has the power to overcome mans inability and His salvation has been received by every man that has every been saved despite his inability to save himself.
What we are attempting to do by being careful with 'works' is to remove the power of them in the minds of men through faithful gospel preaching.
Though a man was discipled as an unbeliever for 20 years, that mans good works and bible reading, prayers etc do not avail him any entry into the kingdom of God and none of it will God receive in place of the righteousness which Christ offers for us. Nevertheless would you have the man increase in wickedness because he is not gaining imputed righteousness by attending church in an unsaved condition? Would you have him drown in alcohol, drugs, promiscuous sex instead of enterning into a morality that is commendable by human standards?
Shall anarchy reign until salvation comes to the lost? No. A thousand times no. The law and morality are Gods measures to curb great sins in unsaved men, those measures even to the preserving their lives are in place so that Christ may save them eternally by His grace.
The Lordship of Christ guides the wicked as well as the lost though not to the same extent or with the same understanding, but He does guide and discipling the unsaved, not as a means of human righteousness but as a means of placing the Word of God before them so that in time God would break in and bring the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ to them.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/12/2007 9:33:59 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Let's note that it doesn't even answer my question about repentance in John.
If the whole Bible consisted of just the Gospel of John, you might have a case. But no doctrine is based on just one verse or one passage or even one book of Scripture. Therefore harping on the Gospel of John is simply avoiding the real issue.
That repentance and faith are two sides of the same identical coin, and that both are necessary for salvation is clear from the entire NT, indeed the whole Bible. I already quoted Acts 20:20,21, which you airily dismissed even though it is a key passage.
Let's take the case of Nineveh in the OT and let's see the connection between believing, repentance, and salvation.
"And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So THE PEOPLE OF NINEVEH BELIEVED GOD, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them... YEA, LET THEM TURN EVERY ONE FROM HIS EVIL WAY, AND FROM THE VIOLENCE THAT IS IN THEIR HANDS... And God repented of the evil that He had said He would do unto them, and He did it not. (Jonah 3:4-10).
We see a clear connnection here between believing, repenting (turning form evil and violence while sitting in sackcloth and fasting), and being saved, since Scripture says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Nineveh believed God and it was imputed to them for righteousness. We believe God and it is imputed to us for righteousness. But the believing of Nineveh was accompanied by genuine heart repentance, as it must be even today. It is only when the sinner believes and repents, that his faith is imputed for righteousness. If a sinner says he believes and continues in his wicked ways, there is no salvation. Such was the case of Simon the Sorcerer.
This, my friend, is the biblical pattern, and this is what the True Gospel must preach, as Peter also did on the Day of Pentecost (which again you dismiss very lightly, since it refutes your notion of believing).
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 1:40:55 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Let's note that it doesn't even answer my question about repentance in John.
If the whole Bible consisted of just the Gospel of John, you might have a case. But no doctrine is based on just one verse or one passage or even one book of Scripture. Therefore harping on the Gospel of John is simply avoiding the real issue.
So you apparently do not believe the gospel of John is enough for salvation. The epistle of Romans isn't enough for salvation. The epistle to the Galatians isn't enough for salvation.
John gave knowledge of Christ for the purpose of believing in Christ as his stated goal.
quote:
That repentance and faith are two sides of the same identical coin,
It might surprise you to know that you and Zane Hodges agree.
quote:
That repentance and faith are two sides of the same identical coin, and that both are necessary for salvation is clear from the entire NT, indeed the whole Bible. I already quoted Acts 20:20,21, which you airily dismissed even though it is a key passage.
Would you please define what you mean by repentance? I explained what I believe Acts 20:20, 21 meant. So I didn't "airly" dismiss it. You returned with a comment about Acts 20 in response to my my question about repentance in John. It seems as if you cannot prove your case from John because John does not support your view.
quote:
Let's take the case of Nineveh in the OT and let's see the connection between believing, repentance, and salvation.
quote:
"And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So THE PEOPLE OF NINEVEH BELIEVED GOD, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them... YEA, LET THEM TURN EVERY ONE FROM HIS EVIL WAY, AND FROM THE VIOLENCE THAT IS IN THEIR HANDS... And God repented of the evil that He had said He would do unto them, and He did it not.[/color] (Jonah 3:4-10).
We see a clear connnection here between believing, repenting (turning form evil and violence while sitting in sackcloth and fasting), and being saved, since Scripture says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Nineveh believed God and it was imputed to them for righteousness. We believe God and it is imputed to us for righteousness. But the believing of Nineveh was accompanied by genuine heart repentance, as it must be even today. It is only when the sinner believes and repents, that his faith is imputed for righteousness. If a sinner says he believes and continues in his wicked ways, there is no salvation. Such was the case of Simon the Sorcerer.
And God was going to do what if they didn't repent? Send them to hell? No, that's not what it says. He was going to KILL THEM, destroy their city, etc.
Rather, it supports what I have been saying all along. Sometimes, the only specific thing certain scriptures tell us is that people's sin leads to their death.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/13/2007 8:37:21 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 2:08:14 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
I'm not sure how you think it proves your point. So, He didn't trust Himself to them. That means they weren't saved? Aren't you doing eisegesis there?
Let's note that it doesn't even answer my question about repentance in John.
Graham:
My exogesis was correct, the meanings John the Apostle spoke of are in my usage of the text.
Repentance and faith being preached together are consistent with the gospel message of scripture.
I keep trying to get you guys to tell me what you mean by repentance. I told you that it doesn't always mean the same thing in each place.
You quoted a scripture that doesn't even use repentance.
quote:
The Free grace position is so determined to rid the thought of any works effecting justification that they are now insistant on pulling apart scripture and mystifying the easily understood texts concerning repentance and faith.
Ever hear of sola fide?
quote:
What Freegracer's must understand is that scripture must bend and shape doctrines of justification by faith, not their doctrine bend and shape scripture.
Somehow or another the doctrine of justification by faith has become so skewed that preaching of repentance and expecting that repentance to validate the persons true belief structure is
now adding works to salvation. It is not.
You are mistaken.
"Of course, there is every reason to believe that there will be good works in the life of each believer in Christ. The idea that one may believe in Him and live for years totally unaffected by the amazing miracle of regeneration, or by the instruction and/or discipline of God his heavenly Father, is a fantastic notion—even bizarre. We reject it categorically."
Zane Hodges. (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y2007/purtzer1.htm)
quote:
The behavior of the Chief priests and elders revealed the kind of belief which indwelt them. It was a deficient belief, one that was hostile to Christ all the while busy with religious duty.
Jesus understood justification by faith better than all of us, His preaching was formulated to present the message of His Father in its purest form. If Jesus says that the Chief priests and elders behavior betrayed their belief and rather showed unbelief its best to believe Christ.
If they didn't believe that Jesus was the Christ, their problem was not "deficient faith." Their problem was faith in the wrong thing.
quote:
Whatever definition you place upon repentance, it must be consistent with the desired outcome of Gods intent. That intent is removal of thought and action which is born of that emnity which our sinful natures have produced in our unsaved condition. If turning to God or turning away from sin or changing your mind is a godly repentance it will have that desired effect of obtaining the approval of God. This is a repentance not to be repented of.
People often assume that all definitions of repentance mean "stop sinning." If we quote a scripture that uses the word repentance as a precondition for salvation and intend to mean in the statement that "stop sinning" is a precondition to salvation, then that is not the Gospel.
If we mean something different, then you and I are probably in agreement. If you're going to quote scripture using the term repentance and rely upon fuzzy meanings, then we're going to get no where. I don't think the term repentance means the same thing in all places.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 8:34:05 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
A false dividing up of salvation in the form of 'savior' salvation and 'lord salvation' is all human invention. There is only one salvation from one Savior and Lord who cannot be divided.
Please give me a quote from the Free Grace side which says that Christ is Savior but not the Lord.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 9:26:21 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
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quote:
People often assume that all definitions of repentance mean "stop sinning." If we quote a scripture that uses the word repentance as a precondition for salvation and intend to mean in the statement that "stop sinning" is a precondition to salvation, then that is not the Gospel.
If we mean something different, then you and I are probably in agreement. If you're going to quote scripture using the term repentance and rely upon fuzzy meanings, then we're going to get no where. I don't think the term repentance means the same thing in all places.
I have no need to watch definitions of repentance to maintain the connection of repentance to faith in Christ, that is something you must do, a hurdle your leaders have installed.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 11:49:23 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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This is from middletown baptist church...
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesho.htm
1. Zane Hodges teaches that a multitude of people will not inherit the kingdom of God, even though they have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 6:9-11). The Gospel Under Seige, Chapter 9, "Who are the Heirs?"
2. Zane Hodges teaches that a large portion of the Church, Christ's beloved body and bride, will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Grace in Eclipse, Chapter 9, "The Darkness Outside" and see also Chapter 8. See our paper, Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth--Will This Be the Fate of True Christians?
3. Hebrews 12:6-8 says, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons." This text is very clear. God loves everyone of His sons and He chastens every single one of them. But Hodges teaches that there are multitudes of saved people who are ILLEGITIMATE (****S--KJV) and who are not chastened by the Father (even though they are saved people). See Hodges discussion of Hebrews 12:8 in The Bible Knowledge Commentary.
4. Hodges teaches that true Christians (those who are really saved) can be described as "children of the devil." Hodges says, "The question might be raised whether a truly regenerate person could ever be called a 'child of the devil.' In the light of 2 John 9, the answer must be Yes" (The Epistles of John, p. 145). Note: Read 2 John 9 for yourself and see if you think this passage proves that true Christians can be called children of the devil!
5. Hodges teaches that the antichrists mentioned in 1 John 2:18-19, 22-23 could very well be saved people! The Epistles of John, pages 111-112.
6. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16). Hodges says that this is a description of "redeemed and justified people" (Grace in Eclipse, pages 68-69). Keep in mind that professing to know God is not necessarily the same as knowing God (see Matthew 7:21-23)..
7. Hodges has no problem saying that a person who totally abandons the Christian faith can be saved. He gives the following illustration:
I have a friend, and more than a friend, a man who labored with me side by side in the ministry of God’s Word in the little group that has become __________ Bible chapel and this friend has fallen away from the Christian faith. He graduated from Bob Jones University and from Dallas Theological Seminary. And about the time when he and his wife left Dallas his wife contracted a very serious illness which over the years got progressively worse until she was reduced to being a complete invalid, and after the death of his wife I visited my friend (who now lives in the Midwest and who teaches Ancient History in a secular university). And as we sat in the living room together, face to face, he told me very frankly but graciously THAT HE NO LONGER CLAIMED TO BE A CHRISTIAN AT ALL, THAT HE NO LONGER BELIEVED THE THINGS THAT HE ONCE PREACHED AND TAUGHT, and the situation was even worse than he described because I heard through others that in the classroom on the university campus he often mocked and ridiculed the Christian faith. As I sat in that living room I was very painfully aware that it was impossible for me to talk that man into changing his mind. Hodges’ illustration was given in a tape series which he delivered while speaking at the Church of the Open Door which at the time was pastored by G. Michael Cocoris. The series of tapes is entitled, "Great Themes in the Book of Hebrews" (available through Redencion Viva Publishers).
Hodges insists that this man is truly saved, and that although he lost his faith, Christ did not lose him. However, it's quite obvious that this man believed only for a while, had no root, and when trials came (the illness and death of his wife), he fell away (Luke 8:13). Hodges explanation for this is that the stony ground, the thorny ground and the good ground (in Christ's parable of the sower) all represent saved individuals! [This is explained by Hodges in his book, The Hungry Inherit]. The fact that Hodges' friend attended a fundamental college and Dallas Seminary, and seemed to be a believer, does not prove anything. Judas fooled everyone except the Lord, and even on the night of the betrayal his fellow disciples did not know that he was the traitor. Did not the Lord Jesus teach us that the tares would be difficult to distinguish from the wheat? Does not Satan have his "ministers of righteousness" who can easily appear to be genuine ministers of God (2 Cor. 11:15)? Since Hodges' friend did not hold fast ("keep in memory"--KJV) to the gospel, does not this indicate that his faith was in vain (1 Cor. 15:1-2)?
8. "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God" (2 John 9). Hodges teaches that this is a description of a saved person! [Bible Knowledge Commentary, p. 908] Hodges seems to teach that if anyone professes Christ, then they must possess Christ. But here is a case where a person doesn't even possess God ("hath not God") and yet Hodges still insists that the person is saved!
9. "Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God" (3 John 10-11). Verse 10 is a description of wicked Diotrephes whom Hodges says was a saved man! Hodges insists that a true believer may do evil continually and may be described as one who "hath not God" (Bible Knowledge Commentary, p. 914). Apparently, all you need to do to convince Hodges that you are saved is to be in a church and claim to be a believer, regardless how you act and regardless how you live! But Jesus said, "Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21).
10. Hodges teaches a "cross-less" gospel. That is, he teaches that is is not necessary for a sinner to believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again in order to be saved. The only thing a sinner needs to believe is that Christ guarantees eternal life to whoever believes (John 6:47). A knowledge of who Christ is and what He accomplished on the cross is not necessary. [This error is set forth most clearly in the article "How to Lead People to Christ, Part 1," in the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society (Autumn, 2000). I would encourage the reader to read the full article which is available on the GES website.] This teaching is serious and cuts to the very heart of the gospel (1 Cor. 15:3-4). There are those even within the free grace group who are very concerned about Hodges' teaching on the gospel (and Bob Wilkin as well). We will be hearing much more about this in the days ahead. John 6:47 is a wonderful salvation promise, but is it really the full gospel? Is faith in the work Christ accomplished on the cross a necessary part of the content of the gospel (1 Cor. 15:3-4)? Is faith in the resurrection essential (Romans 10:9-10)? Hodges insists that it is not necessary for a sinner to believe in Christ's death for our sins and in His resurrection in order to be saved, nor does he even believe it is necessary to believe that Jesus is the Son of God [see article listed above for documentation]. For a very helpful article regarding the "crossless gospel" taught by Hodges and Robert Wilkin and others in the Free Grace camp, see The Tragedy of the Crossless Gospel (actually written by a pastor who is a part of the free grace movement).
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 12:00:03 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
I have no need to watch definitions of repentance to maintain the connection of repentance to faith in Christ, that is something you must do, a hurdle your leaders have installed.
John
Here's the problem. We MUST clarify what we're talking about in definitions.
Let me give an illustration. Suppose someone wants to come to Christ and they are living in sin. Something like homosexuality or adultery or something like that. And we tell them they must believe and repent prior to being saved. If they understand "repent" as meaning "stop sinning" BEFORE they can be saved, we have just told a sinner that he must cease sinning before he can be saved.
If we mean that in embracing Christ, they are turning from all loyalty to sin and intentions to pursue a sinful lifestyle, then you and I are probably on the same page.
Insofar as ceasing to sin as a meaning for repentance, that takes place after salvation.
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Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 12:04:34 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
This is from middletown baptist church...
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesho.htm
That's why I didn't give you the links to Free Grace position before. You're going to have to take up Zane Hodges with Zane Hodges. And frankly, I don't put much stock in what his detractors say about him because I have seen him taken out of context lots of times.
And some of it is his fault.
I quoted Zane Hodges insofar as you misrepresented the FreeGrace position as declaring that we don't believe Jesus is Lord. If you continue to misrepresent my position, I cannot take you seriously. You asked me earlier to educate you and you persist in 2nd hand notions warped and twisted views that you didn't get from me.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/13/2007 12:32:55 PM >
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Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/13/2007 12:09:07 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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With regard to whether or not one must believe that Jesus died and rose again in order to be saved. He's going on pre-cross progressive revelation. Jesus' disciples certainly doubted that he was resurrected. Frankly, they were clueless about that.
But I don't teach that.
And for a different POV, also on the Grace Evangelical web site, look at THIS article.
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2001ii/sapaugh.html
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/13/2007 12:32:04 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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