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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 3:33:06 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
quote:
rw, don't bother with KJB's "exercise in futility". He kept trying to play that game with me a long time ago. He simply fails to understand what is meant by free choice. Why is that? Because puppets don't choose anything. All of the "first causes" of puppets comes from their master.
Yes FreeGrace, I have a Master.
Why dont I show you what my Master does?
Drum roll please as I present the wonderful Word of God...........
For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. NIV
Here it is in NASB;
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Still not clear enough?
How about the Bible in Basic English;
For it is God who is the cause of your desires and of your acts, for his good pleasure.
I bet it is probably still not good enough though is it?
How about the Amplified Bible?
[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.
Wow....isnt that amazing!
It is not a game I am playing with you FreeGrace.
I am just using your own POV and proving it does not work.
You act as if people that have no faith in Jesus Christ can just freely change their minds at whim to have faith in Jesus Christ.
Why do you think such a thing when YOU cannot freely change your mind at whim to turn away from Him?
quote:
The reason you wouldn't "instantly decide to hate Christ" is because you have chosen to love Him. He thinks that God "caused" you to love Christ.
The reason you cant instantly decide to hate is because you do not have the ablilty to freely change your mind and decide to hate!
Your mind is locked in a position and is NOT FREE to choose other than what it is locked in!
FreeGrace,
I took my brother along with his wife and mine to a seafood buffet. He is more of a meat and tater kind of guy while the other three of us love all kinds of seafood.
If there is one thing he cannot stand it is the one thing that I go for first.
The first thing I do is fill my plate up with raw oysters on the half shell.
He cant stand them. He hates the looks of them. One time I got him to sample one.
He was ready to puke as he somehow managed to get that thing past his lips and to slide down his throat.
He was in utter disgust as he hated the taste, the smell, the looks, the texture, and anything else you could think of. He hates them while I love them.
Do you think that I could sit my brother down at a table with me and a massive plate of raw oysters and get him to eat them by saying something like this;
"Hey bro.....all you need to do is exercise your will. Dont you know that you can freely change your mind? Freely change your mind and choose that you will like these raw oysters until this plate is gone, and then you can freely change your mind back to not liking them again".
Do you really think he can sit there and freely choose to love what he hates! 
It is the same with people and Jesus Christ.
Here is the answer that you avoid so often.
It is found in John 3;
This is the verdict:
See that? There is a verdict!
Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Here it is in the Amplified text;
The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this:
the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.
For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.
But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence upon Him]
Perfectly clear to me!
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 4:20:47 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2292
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are saved by grace through faith, not mercy.
We are saved by God's work conditioned on repentance and faith.
rwe,
I really don't think you meant this ? Did you ?
Titus 3:5 (King James Version)
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according
to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Because of his mercy is WHY he does it.
By the washing of regeneration and renewal is HOW he does it.
How do we actually enter into a saved state, Manna - by mercy or by grace?
There is a difference. Maybe its slight.
quote:
Conditional salvation ???...hmm
As opposed to Security of the Believer, no I do not believe CS.
That is not what I meant.
quote:
Would you be kind enough to list these ?
How about ......
.....Repentance and faith? Do I win the prize???
Can you see we are saved BASED on faith, and
we cannot have faith without repentance.
They are prerequisites (I won't say conditions if it disturbs you)
which when they satisfy God, he does his work
There is something required, called for, or necessary for God to do his work.
When God's conditions (ooops) are met, he saves.
quote:
What is salvation predicated upon ? Me ?
See above.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 4:23:13 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2292
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
The meaning is clear and obvious.
There is an exact, full, number of Gentiles that are
predetermined to "COME". God knows what it is.
Sorry, I think it means until all who will believe are saved.
quote:
Just like when the Jews left Egypt, and not a hoof was
left behind, there is a number of people God choose
before the foundation of the world. Ephesians speaks
about this, as well as this passage. Do you agree ?
Nope.
I completely reject selective redemption.
God knows all who will repent.
Otherwise, one has to believe God created the world
without plan, notion, or idea. He hastily threw all this
together to pass the time, and whatever happens is OK.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (King James Version)
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 4:35:35 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2292
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
---God hides Himself from some !
---And reveals Himself to others !
Isn't that amazing ?...God hides Himself !
How do you suppose one can locate Him ? 
The wise, the rich, the one who think they are righteous
will never find God until they repent.
Then God will reveal himself to them and their
hearts will be able to believe.
quote:
No one knows the directions or the place !
They will if they repent!
quote:
Where is the narrow road and strait gate ?
Enter through the gate called "Jesus Christ".
Admission: Repentance.
quote:
And then the kicker that is offensive to some-
Oh yes, the gospel is offensive, I agree!
Many are and were offended because their hearts are not repentant.
Therefore, they are blinded by pride, arrogance, and self-dependence.
They are not weary nor heavy burdened --- or are they? 
quote:
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the
Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
OTOH,
All that the Father gives me will come to me,
and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 6:37
Sounds like a swap meet of souls.
Find the tension, Manna.
Live in the tension and find the truth.
Its what I do. Its fun, its confusing, its conflicting,
its exasperating, its intimidating.....buts its
all we can do while seeing dimly.........
quote:
WOW !!!
ONLY by Divine revelation can God be known !
No discovery by man, nothing in the heart of a
man that leads him to God, no imprinted idea
or thought that every man has, in order that
everyone gets a fair shake ! REVELATION !!!
We are all born with a certain knowledge of God -
but it cannot save us - I'm sure we agree on that.
But the change of mind and heart that occurs
in the truly repentant one leads to the revelation, bro.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 4:38:19 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2292
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Did God somehow do him an injustice by with-holding
His mercy from him ? No, God isn't obligated. Is He ?
God is not obligated to do anything.
Why use that word?
But God has desires.
Is that hard to swallow for you, Manna.
I wonder if in your heart you know what those desires are?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 4:46:15 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
rw, don't bother with KJB's "exercise in futility". He kept trying to play that game with me a long time ago. He simply fails to understand what is meant by free choice. Why is that? Because puppets don't choose anything. All of the "first causes" of puppets comes from their master.
Yes FreeGrace, I have a Master.
Yes, KJB, all believers have a Master, who is Jesus Christ. And none of His children are puppets.
quote:
Why dont I show you what my Master does?
Drum roll please as I present the wonderful Word of God...........
For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. NIV
Here it is in NASB;
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Still not clear enough?
How about the Bible in Basic English;
For it is God who is the cause of your desires and of your acts, for his good pleasure.
I bet it is probably still not good enough though is it?
How about the Amplified Bible?
[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.
Wow....isnt that amazing!
Yes, God does put desires in believers. However, your sin nature is still quite intact. In fact, the struggle that Paul notes in Romans 6 and 7 is the choices he makes between the desires that God gives us and the desires of his sin nature. No matter how you slice it, believers are not puppets on a string.
quote:
It is not a game I am playing with you FreeGrace.
I was referring to your past games with me.
quote:
I am just using your own POV and proving it does not work.
I've not seen any proof from you that my pov doesn't work.
quote:
You act as if people that have no faith in Jesus Christ can just freely change their minds at whim to have faith in Jesus Christ.
I've never ever made any mention that people "just freely change their minds at whim". That is your illusion only. Do you really think that when people change their minds, it is only "at a whim"? Why?
You clearly don't understand what changing the mind is all about. No wonder you are not grasping the concept. The only and real issue here is that mankind is free to change their mind. iow, no one "causes" or "forces" anyone to change their minds. In fact, it cannot be done.
Let me take your silly game that you want to play with rw. Instead of you just "deciding" to change your mind about something, let's say a terrorist is holding you hostage and threatens to kill you unless you change your mind about nice terrorists really are. While you "might" tell him he is nice and all, in reality even a gun to your head cannot change your mind about anything.
Yet, do you want to deny that people can change their minds? It happens all the time. So, you have proven nothing with your game of "change your mind".
quote:
Why do you think such a thing when YOU cannot freely change your mind at whim to turn away from Him?
You simply have no understanding of what "change the mind" even means. Apparently, from your statement here, all of the times when you changed your thoughts about something, someone else was doing that for you? Why?
quote:
quote:
The reason you wouldn't "instantly decide to hate Christ" is because you have chosen to love Him. He thinks that God "caused" you to love Christ.
The reason you cant instantly decide to hate is because you do not have the ablilty to freely change your mind and decide to hate!
Your statement merely reflects your misunderstanding of what changing the mind is all about.
quote:
FreeGrace,
I took my brother along with his wife and mine to a seafood buffet. He is more of a meat and tater kind of guy while the other three of us love all kinds of seafood.
If there is one thing he cannot stand it is the one thing that I go for first.
The first thing I do is fill my plate up with raw oysters on the half shell.
He cant stand them. He hates the looks of them. One time I got him to sample one.
He was ready to puke as he somehow managed to get that thing past his lips and to slide down his throat.
He was in utter disgust as he hated the taste, the smell, the looks, the texture, and anything else you could think of. He hates them while I love them.
Do you think that I could sit my brother down at a table with me and a massive plate of raw oysters and get him to eat them by saying something like this;
"Hey bro.....all you need to do is exercise your will. Dont you know that you can freely change your mind? Freely change your mind and choose that you will like these raw oysters until this plate is gone, and then you can freely change your mind back to not liking them again".
Again, your "illustration" only demonstrates you failure to understand what changing the mind is all about.
None of your "illustrations" have anything to do with what changing the mind is all about.
The issue in changing the mind is NOT about likes/dislikes in food, colors, styles, etc. Those are just superficial things.
Changing the mind is about reason and "coming to one's senses", or realizing something that is different than what you initially thought.
Maybe you don't understand the issue of changing the mind because you haven't used your "reasoner" for a while and you've forgotten how it works.
Were you ever impressed with a political candidate initially, only to "realize" later on that there are things that you do not agree on? So, what do you do? You change your mind about him and no longer support him.
Now, who did the "changing" here? You, based on reason, and coming to your senses, or someone else?
Until you get a better handle on what changing the mind is about, there's no point in further discussion on the topic.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 5:07:59 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 555
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
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There aren't many people that would say "I hate God." That is a variable that would be important to add to this whole discussion.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 5:27:57 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
Repenting is not a righteous act. What support do you have for that in Scripture. By your claim, that would make believing a righteous act, which it is not.
You have got to be kidding right?
If a person repents they are turning away from sin.
Now you are claiming that turning away from sin is not a righteous act?
Let me clear it up FreeGrace.
Sinning is un-righteous behavior, works, or action in thought or deed.
Rejection of Jesus Christ (unbelief) is sin.
Turning away from sin cannot possibly be un-righteous.
And I thought I heard everything........
quote:
My support, you ask? Gen 15:6, Rom 4:3-6, Gal 3:6-14 and James 2:23 all speak of Abraham believing in the Lord and the Lord counted/credited/reckoned it to him for righteousness.
Wow! Fancy that! LOL
Unbelief in the Lord is blatant sin.
Sin is unrighteous behavior.
quote:
Please answer this: if repentance or faith is a righteous act, then why does God credit it to Abraham for righteousness?
FreeGrace.....I doubt that Abraham thought too highly of himself as if this faith he had was manufactured and came from his own mind or will-power.
If he had faith it was because God gave him faith.
Romans 12;
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
The Message is not my favorite Bible to read......but this is what it says in Romans 12;
3I'm speaking to you out of deep gratitude for all that God has given me, and especially as I have responsibilities in relation to you.
Living then, as every one of you does, in pure grace, it's important that you not misinterpret yourselves as people who are bringing this goodness to God.
No, God brings it all to you.
The only accurate way to understand ourselves is by what God is and by what he does for us, not by what we are and what we do for him.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 5:30:22 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2292
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
How does this start...this repentance ?
Repentance starts with man.
Man is commanded to "repent and believe".
First of all, man is guilty because of his rejection, obstinance
and an unrepentant heart, NOT because he is a sinner.
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart,
you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath,
when his righteous judgment will be revealed. Rom 2:5
YOUR stubbornness,
YOUR unrepentant heart
YOU are storing up wrath against
YOURSELF
Its MAN'S FAULT, MANNA!!!
Secondly, I think an unregenerate sinner is able to repent.
Luke 19:8-10
Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions
I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give
back four times as much."
And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house,
because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
Did Zaccheus repent simply because he was in the presence of the Lord?
No, I say he had already repented before he climbed the tree.
What is the point of Jesus' teaching in Luke 18:
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look
up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified
before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he
who humbles himself will be exalted."
Where is any mention of enabling?
See Isa 55:7 is you don't think he can do it:
Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
God desires it for ALL men EVERYWHERE (2Pet 3:9),
God commands men to do it (Acts 17:20),
God waits patiently for men to do it (2 Pet 3:9),
God is happy when a man does it (Luke 15:7).
To me its obvious man is able to repent.
Its not a matter of God "awakening" someone's heart -
I think awakening is all about believing, not repenting.
Third, man's ability to repent is based on certain moral qualities in man,
based on the fact that is blueprint is based on God - he has
a certain knowledge of right and wrong.
[quote[What prompted and caused the change of heart ?
What sets it in motion ? Man or God ?
It starts with the realization of one's condition,
followed by a true desire to repent, which is turning
from God and away from sin.
People who have repented usually do so in association with
certain circumstances that initiated their
"soul searching", such as life conditions, a tragedy,
a life of deep sin and evil; possibly a personal witness.
It starts with the mind and ends with the heart.
The gospel can convict people - do you believe this?
quote:
That certainly smacks of (s)election to me !
Some could change and some were unable to.
Sure looks like God equipped some to "change"
and others were left unable in their original state.
Sure - our election is based on Jesus Christ, not us
and how we become elect is by repentance and faith.
No selection there, it just the way it is -- some will
never repent and be saved.
The why is man's failure, not God's whim.
quote:
If internally in man, then why ONLY some ?
How and why does a man suddenly wake up ?
Some are not hardened.
Some are not swallowed up by the cares and worries of the world?
Some are not arrogant, proud, lovers of money, etc.?
quote:
If you can awaken yourself, then teaches others !
If I awakened, it was only to the sad state of my condition.
How did the prodigal son come to his senses?
If your doctrine was so important, why was the father so happy?
quote:
You are responsible for awakening the reprobates...
I am only responsible for my witness to others in the
hope that they, too, will decide they are too weary and heavy burdened.
quote:
What's your game plan friend ?
I continue to seek and repent and hope for the
continual transformation of my mind and life
that I experience because of Him.
I believe what I have is available to all who will come to know him.
But they cannot come to know him until true repentance occurs.
I will simply do my mission God has prepared for me to do.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 6:53:24 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
Repenting is not a righteous act. What support do you have for that in Scripture. By your claim, that would make believing a righteous act, which it is not.
You have got to be kidding right? If a person repents they are turning away from sin. Now you are claiming that turning away from sin is not a righteous act?
Apparently you didn't read my post fully. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned/credited to him AS righteousness. Gen 15:6. If the act of believing was righteous in and of itself, why did God "credit/reckon it to Abraham as righteousness? Abraham did the believing; God did the crediting.
quote:
Let me clear it up FreeGrace.
Sinning is un-righteous behavior, works, or action in thought or deed.
Rejection of Jesus Christ (unbelief) is sin.
Turning away from sin cannot possibly be un-righteous.
And I thought I heard everything........
If God credits righteousness to one for believing, how is repenting any different?
quote:
quote:
My support, you ask? Gen 15:6, Rom 4:3-6, Gal 3:6-14 and James 2:23 all speak of Abraham believing in the Lord and the Lord counted/credited/reckoned it to him for righteousness.
Wow! Fancy that! LOL
That's your answer? Just a chuckle? How come you aren't coinge up with intelligible answers. LOL doesn't count as intelligible. Anyone can laugh.
quote:
quote:
Please answer this: if repentance or faith is a righteous act, then why does God credit it to Abraham for righteousness?
FreeGrace.....I doubt that Abraham thought too highly of himself as if this faith he had was manufactured and came from his own mind or will-power.
Why are you even "concerned" about what Abraham was thinking. The Bible states that God credited righteousness to Abraham when he believed God. Why don't you interact with that, instead of creating a diversion to take focus off the issue here?
quote:
If he had faith it was because God gave him faith.
Your proof?
quote:
Romans 12;
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
As I thought: you apparently think "measure of faith" means saving faith. It refers to the body of knowledge of the Christian faith that is ours to receive when we believe in Christ. No one person has this body of Christian knowledge without measure.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 7:22:20 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
You clearly don't understand what changing the mind is all about. No wonder you are not grasping the concept.
The only and real issue here is that mankind is free to change their mind. iow, no one "causes" or "forces" anyone to change their minds. In fact, it cannot be done.
Mind control 101.
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
If you do not have the Spirit in you controlling your mind that is fine with me.
I just do not know what to tell you.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 7:33:30 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2292
Status: offline
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quote:
God's desire is for man to be redeemed, not condemned.
You don't believe this?
Manna: God doesn't say that or perform that.
God says this:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
And God says this:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
And this:
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world,
but to save the world through him.
And this:
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light,
so that through him all men might believe.
quote:
If He did, then I would believe it.
He definitely said it and you can believe it the
next time you share the gospel, friend.
quote:
If Christ died for all...then all must be saved.
False conclusion based on misunderstanding.
All who repent will believe and be saved, but not all will repent.
quote:
Christ died for some, and ALL of them are saved.
True. All those who repent will believe and be saved.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 7:50:50 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
Yes, KJB, all believers have a Master, who is Jesus Christ. And none of His children are puppets.
For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.
quote:
I've never ever made any mention that people "just freely change their minds at whim". That is your illusion only. Do you really think that when people change their minds, it is only "at a whim"? Why?
God must enable the mind (change it) for a man to come to Jesus Christ.
If the mind remains unable it is because it has not been enabled.
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
Total human disability.
If people are so able....why would they need to be enabled? That really makes sense!
quote:
Until you get a better handle on what changing the mind is about, there's no point in further discussion on the topic.
Sounds like a plan. 
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
From what I gather, a persons mind is either controlled by God, or by his own sinful nature which would be in line with satan.
I am quite happy with the way I understand things.....thanks for all of your time and effort in trying to help though.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:20:05 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
That's why all believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. And when they are filled with the Spirit, they are pleasing God. When believers are quenching or grieving the Spirit, they are NOT pleasing God.
Please answer this: when you sin, who's control are you under, the Spirit's or your own sin nature?
It appears that you think that believers either don't have a sin nature or that it no longer has any influence or control over their lives. Is that correct?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:28:50 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
Yes, KJB, all believers have a Master, who is Jesus Christ. And none of His children are puppets.
For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.
quote:
I've never ever made any mention that people "just freely change their minds at whim". That is your illusion only. Do you really think that when people change their minds, it is only "at a whim"? Why?
God must enable the mind (change it) for a man to come to Jesus Christ.
If the mind remains unable it is because it has not been enabled.
Our difference here is that you think "to enable" means to change, but I think "to enable" means "to understand". This is because God has made evident to mankind "everything that is known about God", so that man is without excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him.
Further, since the Bible promises that those who seek God will find Him, I am convinced and confident that God will enable anyone who seeks Him to understand the gospel when presented to them.
quote:
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
The question, again: when you sin, under who's control are you under: the Spirit's or your own sin nature? Please answer.
quote:
From what I gather, a persons mind is either controlled by God, or by his own sinful nature which would be in line with satan.
Precisely the struggle that Paul spoke of in Rom 6 and 7.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:59:51 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
quote:
That's why all believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. And when they are filled with the Spirit, they are pleasing God. When believers are quenching or grieving the Spirit, they are NOT pleasing God.
Please answer this: when you sin, who's control are you under, the Spirit's or your own sin nature?
It appears that you think that believers either don't have a sin nature or that it no longer has any influence or control over their lives. Is that correct?
You just got done a little while ago telling me how nothing can change a persons mind.
I have just shown you with Scripture that the Spirit controls the persons mind if the Spirit of God is in them.
Now you want to change your POV so that mind control is possible.....but only to believers.
So I guess now you will say unbelievers have free-will, and believers are controlled by God?
You have every right to believe what you want. You seem to be quite able in fighting all of this as you try your best to prove that you are in total control of all your faculties on your own. That is what you have been trying to do all along.....promote the human will.
A man left on his own and left to his own is what as known as sinful....with a sinful nature.
Dont you remember Romans 1?
A man on his own and controlled by himself does not please God.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
Natural men have this natural problem of not wanting or willing to be under the control (in submission) to God. They naturally do not will or desire to submit. They would rather assume they are in total and complete control of their faculties. They like it that way. It is far beneath the natural man to consider or even want that God would be in control of them. Such a concept would humble them far lower than natural human dignity should ever allow.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
So how does a natural man please God?
He cant.
He must first come under the control of God.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
How is a man that is under his OWN control going to please God?
You think the man will turn to God of his OWN power and control?
How? It says he cant please God.
How does a person get this desire and ability to please God?
God produces it in them.........thats how.
For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.
Let me put it to you straight.
I am under the control and power of God.
I do not remember telling you otherwise.
You liken it to being a puppet on a string or a robot.....and hey.....thats fine with me!
Here is more from the WCF of which it is obvious you do not read from nor like.
Chapter XVII
Of the Perseverance of the Saints
I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]
II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]
Chapter V
Of Providence
V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;[19] and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.[20]
VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,[21] from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;[22] but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,[23] and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[24] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[25] whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.[26]
VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[27]
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
FreeGrace,
I have no problem at all in being a puppet of my Master.
What more could a new man ever desire?
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 11:02:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
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