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determinism, Calvin quotes - 7/7/2005 3:28:33 PM
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swordsman
Posts: 55
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
Does Calvinism imply determinism?
Do we have to reject Calvinism because of its deterministic philosophy?
sw: Calvin couldn't make up his mind. Or, he would be writing on a subject and forced away from determinism.
"how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will, but merely by His permission...It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permist them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them." (E.P.10:11)
And on the other foot: "Therefore the great works of the Lord are contrived according to His desire, so that in a wonderful and ineffable way, what is done against His will is yet not done beyond His will; for it would not be done did He not allow, and allow it not unwillingly, but willingly." E.P.10:14)
And back to determinism: "Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He wills, rewarding them none the less according to deswert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as He will, whether to good for His mercy's sake or to evil according to their merits. (E.P.10:11)
And to the other side of the fence: "Adam voluntarily deprived himself of the rectitude he had received from God, voluntarily gave himself to the service of sin and Satan, and voluntarily precipitated himself into destruction.... For the proper and genuine cause of sin is not God's hidden counsel but the evident will of men." (E.P.8:5).
Most reject Calvin's thoughts pro-determinism, knowing that God is not the author of sin and that sin is NOT His will.
Swordsman
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RE: determinism, Calvin quotes - 7/7/2005 3:44:20 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
Does Calvinism imply determinism?
Do we have to reject Calvinism because of its deterministic philosophy?
sw: Calvin couldn't make up his mind. Or, he would be writing on a subject and forced away from determinism.
"how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will, but merely by His permission...It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permist them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them." (E.P.10:11)
And on the other foot: "Therefore the great works of the Lord are contrived according to His desire, so that in a wonderful and ineffable way, what is done against His will is yet not done beyond His will; for it would not be done did He not allow, and allow it not unwillingly, but willingly." E.P.10:14)
And back to determinism: "Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He wills, rewarding them none the less according to deswert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as He will, whether to good for His mercy's sake or to evil according to their merits. (E.P.10:11)
And to the other side of the fence: "Adam voluntarily deprived himself of the rectitude he had received from God, voluntarily gave himself to the service of sin and Satan, and voluntarily precipitated himself into destruction.... For the proper and genuine cause of sin is not God's hidden counsel but the evident will of men." (E.P.8:5).
Most reject Calvin's thoughts pro-determinism, knowing that God is not the author of sin and that sin is NOT His will.
Swordsman
Swordsman,
I think you just are not understanding Calvin. If you want, I'd be happy to explain how all the pieces fit together. As for "the author of sin" thing, Calvin clearly stated his position that God is not the author of sin.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 3:46:16 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
The Bible says you are robots of Satan before God interneves.
As much as I agree with you on a lot of things, No, it does not say that.
-Turretinfan
With all due respect, I believe it does Turretin. The Bible says that before salvation our father is Satan. What I was saying well said to was the post before this one.
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 3:52:42 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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Providence means that God has not abandoned the world that he created, but rather works within that creation to manage all things according to the “immutable counsel of His own will” (Westminster Confession of Faith, V, i).
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 4:20:08 PM
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EddieL
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Rustburg, Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
So, are you suggesting that the GOSPEL has no power to move the hearts and minds of men to call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in order that they can be saved..?
The gospel belongs to God. It is His chosen means to bring people to Himself. It is immensely powerful, as it moves the hearts of minds of men to call upon Christ all the time.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 4:43:44 PM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
So, are you suggesting that the GOSPEL has no power to move the hearts and minds of men to call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in order that they can be saved..?
The gospel belongs to God. It is His chosen means to bring people to Himself. It is immensely powerful, as it moves the hearts of minds of men to call upon Christ all the time.
Well, come on now Eddie.. you're forgetting the part about how it only moves the hearts and minds of those whom He allows to believe its message.. riiiiiggggghhhhhhtttttt ?
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 4:48:35 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
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NIC,
Post 84 needs a response.
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:14:58 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:16:40 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:19:10 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:20:49 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:23:02 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:24:34 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:26:01 PM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:30:14 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
So, you agree that Calvinism implies determinism.
In determinism there is no absolute wrong. Everything is as it supposed to be. Do you agree with that?
Holdon,
I said what I said. I did not say that Calvinism implies determinism. What I said was somewhat nuanced from that. It's in an earlier post for anyone to read.
Anyhow, your next jump to "everything is as it is supposed to be" is interesting. Ok, yes it is as it is supposed to be. How you go from there to "no absolute wrong" though, should be a fascinating journey. I'm along for the ride. Show me how you get there.
-Turretinfan
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:31:21 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:33:36 PM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:34:31 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
The kind of knowledge you describe is a statistical knowledge ... not a certain knowledge. There is nothing that you know certainly.
-Turretinfan
Can you know anything certainly? You?
I don't know, or at least I'm not sure.
:)
-Turretinfan
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:35:28 PM
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 5:35:36 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holdon
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
God is not a man, and he is permitted to ordain that sin will occur. Why? Why can he ordain that sin occur and not be responsible for it?
Because he is God.
-Turretinfan
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:41:17 PM
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[Deleted] - 7/7/2005 5:42:53 PM
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I don't know, maybe I'm being to picky today. 