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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2005 3:34:07 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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quote:
The Bible never specifically mentions masturbation or states whether masturbation is a sin or not.
Write2Witness - please read the thread. The Bible does mention masturbation - and not in negative terms.
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Another good test is to determine whether we can honestly, in good conscience, ask God to bless and use the particular activity for His own good purposes. I do not think masturbation qualifies as something we can be "proud" of or can genuinely thank God for.
And your reason for saying that? I suspect that, if you were honest, it would be that you're uncomfortable with it. If that's so, that's likely coming from youyr culture and particularly your unbringing.
Thanks, Aloha. I don't think anyone would call Dr. Dobson unBiblical or antiChristian. Even my old Boy Scout book says that there's nothing wrong with masturbation unless it's acompanied by guilt feelings. The type of baseless arguments against masturbation seen on this thread gives a good indication of where it comes from. Usually, when there are such strong feelings without reasonable foundation, it's something that's shuck into a culture but ahs become so engrained that people can'y criitically evaluate their own beliefs on the subject.
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Some of these responses are shocking!! Some folks need to work on their spiritual levels for real.
Men, we are men, Christian men and we need to be honest, the only reasons we masterbate (when our spouse is not around) are because we 1. are sinfully lusting after a woman or women 2. or inspired by pornography or other sexual imagery 3. wishing we could be in adultery or fornication with a woman or women.
BlackCapn, you need to be honest - you don't know why other people do what they do and you can't assume that they're like you in making those assessments.
WhatLoveIs, I've studied the topic in-depth. I frankly don't have time to sit back and listen to a 80 minute (I am going to assume, devotional) sermon about something that I have studied minutely. If there is something new there that I haven't brought up, I am quite comfortable about hearing it from you. If it seems new, then I'll go and listen to the 80 minute presentation. And don't call me a hypocrit for that - I'm not asking you for anything more than I required of myself.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 2:31:25 PM
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Konstantinos
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I'f rather die by that cancer that you get if you haven't used it for a long time, than masturbate ever again, or have sex unless if it was with my wife. I stopped it for 30 days now. and I had stopped it twice before for around 40 days and if I did it again, well I gave in time and time.
For me there are no reasons to do it and I won't do it again. After all it stinks and its pretty yucky.
So let the cancer come to me, I don't care. Its the same like saying I'll go with your wife, but we both won't have any lustful thoughts, and we are doing it just because her husband can't "work"... so we are doing it for a baby.... uh-uh, for all that I know those people, prayed to God, and sometime God allowed them.
So whether I get a cancer or not from this, I don't care. I'll die the way and time God wants me to.
And I don't think that is how I'll die but anyway...
_____________________________
I'm best friends with the boogie man.
I'm a beast.
I'm a HH.
Tiger hug.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 4:01:22 PM
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LivingForChrist07
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I'm with you Lord_Storm, I've been masturbation free for 2 months now (praise the Lord) and I couldn't be any happier. When I masturbated I was a sad person, now I'm way happier. If I could take back anything I would take back looking at porn and masturbating. If I get prostate cancer so be it, it's not worth to masturbate, I'll save myself up for my furture wife  .
_____________________________
"Our philosophical commitment to materialism and reductionism is true, but I would prefer to characterize it as philosophical commitment to a real explanation as opposed to a complete lack of explanation which is what you espouse."
-Richard Dawk
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[Deleted] - 8/29/2005 11:15:47 PM
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[Deleted] - 8/29/2005 11:43:45 PM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 6:10:36 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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quote:
Hey - I have no intention of name calling.
That was a forestallment. I've had that reaction before and I wanted to explain why it didn't apply here before it happened.
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However, inferring that someone was 'ignorant' was just as unkind:
I don't understand this one. "Ignorance" is a lack of knowledge. I have a lot of areas of ignorance and having them pointed out is not something that I consider "unkind" unless it's an area that I am supposed to be well versed in and done in the spirit of maliciousness.
The particular case, though, was somewhat a challenge. I find that a very large number of Christians have very strong opinions with little basis and when they are pointed toward information that tends to not support their opinon, they don't want to see it. That is self inforced ignorance (if there is enough interest to have a strong opinion - otherwise, it's just a point of diinterest) and is rather a shame for Christians. I gave three options - I'm not sure if there are any others or not. Just off the bat, I don't see any. You should take whichever option fits you. As for the last option, if you choose to remain ignorant (instead of looking up the research) then, that's all right, but you really shouldn't be stating a strong opinion.
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What exactly is the proof that you looking for?
Hmmmmm.....I'm not sure how to answer this one. I think I've found all the information I need to make a reasonable, Christian decision. The Bible isn't doesn't comdemn masturbation even when it speak of it and there's plenty of evidence of it's beneficial effects (and no evidence of negative effects).
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See, I believe that without the Anti-masturbator's whole mindset of understanding sex & God's standards, Pro-masturbators (ie. you) won't understand our arguments. For, every argument that Anti-M's make is on the basis of our mindset.
It's not reasonable to base a belief on a mindset. especially one that you try to pursuade others of. That's pretty much saying, "I believe this and you should too - although I don't have any basis for that belief except that I believe it really strongly."
But it's not like such a "mindset" is a necessaily Christian mindset. In other words, there are plenty of pagans that believe that masturbation is wrong or harmful. On the otherhand, as is obvious from this thread, there are, at least nominal (I realize that you don't know me well enough to tell if I'm "really" a Christian or not) Christians that believe that there is nothing wrong and even plenty right about masturbation.
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So- I would like to take this subject past judging the correctness of our arguments - and go deeper into understanding the mindsets that leads us towards our opposing oppinions & interpretations on this subject.
Well, I have commented on that. When you negate the correctness of arguments and assumptions, you end up with psychological factors. The strongest that I can see working here is culture. It is hard to distinguish between ones own culture and reasonable beliefs simply because cultural assuptions are taken for granted for so long. One of the serious problems I see in the church is a ready willingness to accept traditional beliefs uncritically - and by "uncritically" I mean comparison with the scriptures as much as I do with empirical data.
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In John Piper's first sermon (click here to listen) he takes the text of Ezekial 16:4-63, to proove that this picture of sex (between a husband and wife), is a picture discribing the relationship between God ("I") and his people ("faithless wife").
And, in this powerful portrayal of God's intimate love with his people, there is no room for a depiction of God loving himself (or masturbating) in the same sexual terms.
The problem (and it's a serious problem) is that this is a Biblical allegory intended to emphasize the faithfulness of God to a faithless people. Beyond that context you cannot use it. It is not intended to be a commennt of sexual hygiene or even the correctness of sexual practices. It is a dismally common prcatice in the church to take scripture out of context to support poorly based beliefs. THat can be used to provide "support" for just about any belief one could come up with.
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Our sexual pratices should reflect what God himself practices. God's most intimate love (likened unto sex) is always shared with others- and never is directed toward himself.
The fallacy here is that God does not practice any kind of sex at all (unless, as some Christians believe, God had a carnal relationship with Mary through a surrogate body). Therefore, even marital sex does not reflect what God Himself practices.
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In the same way, our most intimate expression of love (sex), should also be shared solely with a covenant partner, not directed at ourselves (as in the case of masturbation or solo sex).
And, of course, I don't at all see masturbation as an intimate expression of love. It's simply a maintenance mechanism. I suspect that in very few cases (and I beleive they would truely be aberrant) is masturbation an expression of "self-love".
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You never see God's love seeking to directly please himself. God's Love always is self-less, is never directed at himself, and, it's tottally other minded, and other centered.
Again, masturbation and love are unrelated. As it is, though, the Bible repeats over and over - Old Testament and New - that God acts to glorify Himself. Of course, when God is glorified, His people are also glorified, therefore, it would be much too simplistic to call God selfish because of that.
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And, you can't understand where my comments are comming from, without hearing or reading Rev. John Piper's message.
I will look at Rev. Piper's site, but his argument doesn't sound, from what you've said, to be any different from the typical anti-masturbation stance.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 6:53:29 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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quote:
Sex and the Supremacy of Christ, Part 2
Rev. John Piper
Desiring God National Conference
September 24-26
Sunday Morning Message
On Friday night I waved a banner over this conference with two convictions written on it:
The first was that sexuality is designed by God as a way to know Christ more fully. And the second conviction from Friday night was that knowing Christ—the supremacy of Christ—more fully is designed by God as a way of guarding and guiding our sexuality. And when I speak of knowing Christ, I mean it in the fullest biblical sense of grasping great truth about Christ, and growing in fellowship with Christ, and being satisfied with the supremacy of Christ.
Actually, on reading the two sermons as posted, I think you did an excellant job of condensing the ideas, WhatLoveIs.
I can use the first statement in the second part, to point out some of the problems I have with this position.
There is one place that I know of in the Bible (I don't know of any others) where Jesus came right out and explicitly told us how we can know Him. It is -
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Matt 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
This is not a picture of marital intimacy but of vocational intimacy. A young ox is not yoked to a cow to learn to plow but to a more mature ox.
Also, Rev. Piper keeps confusing masturbation with sexual intimacy. Except in a trivially broad meaning of the word, intimacy requires more than one person. Intimacy is something that's shared. It is comunication of something of a personal or private nature. The intent of masturbation is not, and has never been, intimacy. It can be used so (as with mutual masturbation) but that is not it's intent - nor does it operate on the basis of intimacy. Intimacy and mastubation are not essentially related.
But, although you presented the anti-masturbation viewpoint, I cannot present the pro-masturbation view point. I think that any person who supports the use of masturbation is likely to have a slightly different stance. But I can repeat, mindset is not a good basis for beliefs......
and my stance is not pro-masturbation but, as I've said many times hence, anti-legalism, and my points, again, are.....
1. The Bible does not condemn mastrubation specifically, even when It talks about it and even given the fact that It does condemn almost every other common sexual practice that goes on outside of marriage. It seems evident to me that the Bible - by it's own report - has nothing against masturbation.
2. There is no known observable harm in masturbating - or, at least, none has been brought out here.
3. Research (which I have brought out in the past) indicates that there is quite a lot of benefit in masturbation.
4. Since there is no rational basis for the anti-masturbation stance - either scripturally or scientifically - it seems that the basis is cultural (what you were taught as you grew up), in other words, worldly tradition.
5. Although I will not criticize anyone for believing that masturbation is wrong for them or for stating the opinion that masturbation is wrong; unless a Biblical basis for condemning masturbation can be shown (and it hasn't here), trying to pursuade others that masturbation is wrong or condemning them for masturbating is legalism, pure and simple. Now not all anti-masturbation people go to that extreme, but this is a large debate and some most certainly do.
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[Deleted] - 8/31/2005 2:25:06 AM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 2:13:11 PM
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dantose
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wolfvanzandt
and my stance is not pro-masturbation but, as I've said many times hence, anti-legalism, and my points, again, are.....
1. The Bible does not condemn mastrubation specifically, even when It talks about it and even given the fact that It does condemn almost every other common sexual practice that goes on outside of marriage. It seems evident to me that the Bible - by it's own report - has nothing against masturbation.
2. There is no known observable harm in masturbating - or, at least, none has been brought out here.
3. Research (which I have brought out in the past) indicates that there is quite a lot of benefit in masturbation.
4. Since there is no rational basis for the anti-masturbation stance - either scripturally or scientifically - it seems that the basis is cultural (what you were taught as you grew up), in other words, worldly tradition.
5. Although I will not criticize anyone for believing that masturbation is wrong for them or for stating the opinion that masturbation is wrong; unless a Biblical basis for condemning masturbation can be shown (and it hasn't here), trying to pursuade others that masturbation is wrong or condemning them for masturbating is legalism, pure and simple. Now not all anti-masturbation people go to that extreme, but this is a large debate and some most certainly do.
I absolutely agree. I would go one set further and say that if you feel masturbation is wrong for you than it legitimately is. However, unless it can be scripturally shown, neither side should say what is right or wrong for the other. One should not say to the other it is wrong, nor should one say to the other that it's right (since if he feels he is doing it in sin than it is a sin).
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 5:58:35 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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quote:
The 'mind set' I speak of is the entire Biblical interpretation that filters how each Christian veiws the world, and the word of God.
I probably misunderstood your use of the term "mind set".
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Ofcourse some Catholics have other books
This is actually an important point. I can't use the same criterion against a Catholic argument as with a Protestant. Catholicism is traditionalist by intent. It is evident that the Catholic tradition is anti-masturbation (or, so I've noticed). That's pretty much a bottomline. But with nontraditionalists (people who only accept the Bible and authoritative), I don't have to deal with the tradition. When it comes to tardition, I have to start the tedious process of - where did the tradition come from and is it based in anything real.
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However, I would argue that is not the case here with me or you, and most men. We are all educated, biblically informed, and intellegent reasoning skills to some degree. We are careful in what we each choose to believe.
With some of the ideas that come from otherwise intelligent and rational people, I'm amazed that you would say that.
:)
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However, if we get into each other's head and explore the theological 'mind sets' that causes us to come to hold to our own beliefs, and reject others - that will help us out alot more, than what we have been doing, thus far.
Lead on, oh, Banquo!
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2005 8:48:50 PM
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robalan
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All I know is that a lot of stuff in our culture is making it tough to control ourselves. Turn on the TV, sex is everywhere. Even cereal commercials seem to advertise sex. Also, women practically don't wear any clothing in America. I think the best way to reduce your temptation is to turn off the TV and start spending time with the right crowd. Whether or not masturbation is a sin, I think the majority of masturbation comes as a result of outside temptation. Again, keep your path straight (as the Bible says) and you'll be surprised how clear things become.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2005 6:09:17 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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I think that you do have a point Robalan. Cultural factors complicate the factor of masturbation quite a lot and involve hidden snares. But there are some groups that just aren't strongly affected by the larger human culture. Also, Christians need to be maturing to the point that they can get above their worldly culture so that it's no longer such an issue for them.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2005 5:14:55 PM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2005 6:25:46 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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I don't think that "insulate" is the right word. I would think that we simply choose our environment so that we have to arenas - a nurturative one where we restore and recreate (and that would be a Godly environment) and a work environment where we do our jobs (and although our "workplace" is part of that, the job I'm talking about is the one we do for Jesus).
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2005 6:35:59 PM
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DaveW
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Jesus prayed that we would be in the world but not of the world, not stained by it. He then says he is not praying that we be removed (or insulated). If we do not interface with the world on some level, we cannot have any kind of effective outreach.
While this is somewhat OT, I think it is important to keep in mind. If you wish to cut your self completely off from any kind of sexual stimulation, how will you deal with being engaged? Better to learn now how to handle (intentional) those desires properly than be overwhelmed by them later on.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2005 12:41:58 PM
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Gluelin
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I was reading through my Men's Health magazine and came across this ad for something called a "ropes" enhancer. Ropes, the ad claims, is the term applied to the number of contractions a man has during climax, and their product allegedly stimulates stronger ropes which means more intensified pleasure resulting from climax.
Well, I don't know anything about ropes or the products alledging to provide stronger ropes, but I do know a thing or two about the intensity and pleasure of climax, so its easy to understand the bait of the ad. While thinking about the concept (climax) of the ad, I concluded that as I get older, the intensity/pleasure I receive during coitus with my wife has decreased, which, I read, is quite normal. But, when I masturbate, the intensity/pleasure at climax is almost always stronger than it is compared to climax during coitus.
I have never denied my spouse intimacy in favor of masturbation. If denial has ever occurred, which it frequently does, it's on DW's part, not my part. I've never felt guilty or believed masturbation was sinful. But I'm at the point that I recognize it provides greater physical gratification more than does coitus, but of course, I recognize that it can never provide intimacy or the physical closeness of being with one's spouse. So, I'm content to enjoy both.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2005 6:02:41 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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I am absolutely amazed at the new sex crazes. Virility drugs, male organ enlargers, things like this ROPES training - add in the monoey spent by men to save falling hair - are we really that vain? I don't even look into my bulk mail folder anymore. It is inundated for adds for the above products and services (not to mention women wanting me to look at their webcams, pornography sites, and "Africa cons".
An important point, though - some of these "sexual breakthroughs" will mess you up. Be really, really careful about what you let someone talk you into doing.
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[Deleted] - 9/14/2005 10:59:47 PM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2005 6:03:43 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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I feel the same but, evidently, there are a lot of guys that do spend the money.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2005 8:25:09 AM
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Jude3-
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I agree that it is a sin and should be something that we must strive to avoid in our lives. Im shocked that so many Christians actually believe this is something God wants us to do. WhatLoveIs basically has nailed down all the points as to why its wrong. But let me add that the Bible says woe to those who call good evil, and evil good. When Christians start believing that something sinful is something good , thats a scary sign of the times to me.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2005 6:05:33 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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Unfortunately, WhatLoveIs hasn't supported his point. The Bible, even in talking about masturbation has nothing bad to say about it, there is no other evidence that there's a problem with it, and there's plenty of evidence for the beneficial effects of masturbation. The reason that so many Christians believe that it's not a bad thing is that everything (except for some folks opinions) indicate that it's not a bad thing.
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[Deleted] - 9/28/2005 12:54:18 AM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2005 2:27:52 AM
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Jude3-
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This isnt Rocket Science ..... God designed sex to be between a man and woman who are married, end of story. Any perversion of that is sin. If you are not convinced its a sin but even THINK that it MIGHT be , then if I were you I would rather err on the side of caution then to find out on Judgement Day that you have been living in sin.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2005 6:33:17 PM
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wolfvanzandt
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quote:
- expressed that "anything not forbidden by name, (ie. masturbation) can certainly be forbidden using the princibles of scripture concerning unlawful sexual sin, and lawful sexual practice.
- negated the pro-masturbator's arguement that "Anything not specifically mentioned in scripture is ok with God," by listing "Abortion,
Child abuse, Child molestation, pedophillia, torchure, shooting heroin, oral sex, anal sex," etc. as things that are not specifically mentioned in scripture. And, no one would believe that God is ok with all those things, so that proves that promasturbator's argument as a false and deciveing doctrine.
But those points are irrelevant because the Bible does mention masturbation (in Leviticus) and does not condemn it.
quote:
- quoted a viable source that proved masturbation increases desire for sex, and increases the sexual drive, instead of lessening it. Therefore masturbation is not a resource for lessening sexual desire, as some have argued as their sole reason for their practice of it.
And I questioned that source because it doesn't support it's own contention and there are plenty of pro-masturbation results that do. Also, from simple experience, I and others find that it does decrease libido.
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- stated that any statement of a medical need for masturbation is simply a myth used to justify those who feel guilty about the practice.
It's not a myth because it's based on solid research. In fact, it was the research that I referenced - not individual opinions.
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- argued that a lack of masturbation does not kill people by causing prostate cancer. And, good health practices are vastly more important to prevention of prostate cancer than masturbation. (I was the only one to actually provide qoutes from a nutrition text book on that subject.)
The nutrition information stated that there are nurtitional elements that help in preventing prostate cancer - but prudent people try to reduce all the risk factors and one is infrequent ejaculation. If you have high blood pressure, you would be ill-advised to just eat right without getting the rigt exercise - you reduce all the risk factors.
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- expounded how God is responcible for taking care of our needs for ejactulation through wet dreams. Although, He is not the source of any impure fanticy that may accompany it.
For most men - wet dreams go away soon after adolescence but the risk of prostate cancer (and other health problems that masturbation helps to prevent) does not.
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