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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 4:59:01 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
Though I haven't mentioned it, I agree that if the Sabbath must be observed as a particular day of the week, then that day must be Saturday. I noticed in looking at Leviticus 23 (you mentioned it) it says of the Sabbath "for six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is to be a sabbath of complete rest..." It had never occurred to me before, but it seems that this might be consistent with a Sunday Sabbath. If one works for six days and takes the next day off, then it sounds like a fulfillment of the verse--for six days work was done, but on the seventh day a Sabbath of rest was observed. Can you tell me why this would be an impossible reading? If it is impossible, are you confident that the human species has never lost track of what day of the week it is since creation was complete?
I don't think that you understand Judaism very well. If you did, you would know that they wouldn't lose track of which day is the Shabbat. And, if they happened to lose track since creation they had plenty of prophets to correct them. Further, He has always had a remnant who have walked with Him.
Another thing to consider is that it is the Sabbath because the elders say it is. They have the ability to make binding decisions like that if need be.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 5:14:15 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
God said "arise and go to Ninevah." Even if it were convenient to do so, I would not feel any need to obey that command.
Neither do I. That was a specific command for Jonah only. Don't blur the lines. We both know (I think) that we are talking about the commandments in the Torah that God has given to all His children.
quote:
Verse one has been translated "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters." The matter in question appears to be quite disputable.
The Law of God is not doubtful, but I have read Acts 15, Galatians, and other NT items speaking about the Law. There was always a distinction made between Jews and God fearing Gentiles. When Christianity began to grow in its youth, a natural question was whether Gentile converts would be Jews or Noahides. Acts 15 seemed to enforce the Noahide laws with the assumption that some were understood of anyone believing in Christ.
Acts 15 isn't about Gentiles keeping Noachide laws. If you have the patience to listen to a sermon you will understand why. It is called "The Sons of Noah". The teacher clearly explains why that isn't referring to the Noachide laws. However, the explanation isn't something that I can write out for you as it is too lengthy. If you're serious about understanding it then I hope you'll listen.
In Acts 15 they are debating how much of the oral law the new Gentile disciples have to follow. Again, it isn't a simple explanation and you'll need to read for yourself.
http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Acts%2015.pdf
Essentially, they are talking about the people in Acts 15:1 who are trying to get the Gentiles to become proselytes to Judaism and "become" Jews. The Torah does not require that of non-Jews, but these mistaken people think it does. The Sages taught that a Gentile had to go through a ritual conversion where they were circumcised, offered a sacrifice at the Temple, were instructed in basic Torah, and immersed in water. Once they came up out of the water they would no longer be Gentiles, but Jews. The Sages said that they ACTUALLY became Jews. To illustrate this "fact" they said that before the immersion the Gentile couldn't marry his sister, but after the immersion he could because he was no longer in her family - he was now a Jew. This is pure hogwash and the Apostles were battling this stinking thinking. That is the underlying story to Acts 15. Remember that the word "nomos" can mean either "Law of God" or "law of man". You need to be very discerning and understand the theologies of the First Century Judaisms well.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/2/2008 5:38:17 PM
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LBolt
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Shalom to you Dred,
To add further, Romans 14 was dealing with foods and fast days not Sabbath. You can look on your 7 day week calender and the 7th day falls on Saturday. Or Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. In Matt. 24: Yahshua admonishes His disciples to pray that there flight be not on the Sabbath...
If this refers to just any day of the week or the ones we choose it would create confusion! However the Hebrew calender, Gregorian and Julien calenders kept the correct order, however the change the names of the days of the week to fit their pagan deities. Saturday is Saturnalis, Sunday for the Sun God... In Hebrew the days are numbered 1,2,3...
In Spanish, the 7th day is Sabbado. Russian has a similar pronounciation, so YHWH has left His mark no matter the changes man has made.
If you read Romans, Torah is referred quite frequently, in fact all the NT writings but especially Romans.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 9:43:43 AM
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mcleod
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Okay you people that are worshipping a day of the week. You say in your mind I don't, I worship the true God yet in your writings say the opposite. LBolt in your last statement you said that their was only one day mention in the Bible regards to a sabbath day. Come on in the week of passover there are two days that they observed as a sabbath. When you guys go nuts over this one day and to what day it is read Isaiah chapter 1, 58. May I say the whole thing and then come and write about your hang ups on a certain day.
People write that you have the laws down right yet and I also guilty of it. Are in front of a screen and we actual don't know is important in God's eyes because we get caught in this world of debating about certain crossing the T's and missing the big picture.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 10:23:25 AM
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LBolt
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quote:
Come on in the week of passover there are two days that they observed as a sabbath.
You are right. However, I was referring specifically to the weekly Shabbat of Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. No I don't worship a day.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 11:42:15 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
Come on in the week of passover there are two days that they observed as a sabbath.
You are right. However, I was referring specifically to the weekly Shabbat of Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. No I don't worship a day.
Are you sure that you don't? Because (and maybe it's not you) have this idea that we for some odd reason. Think that one day has a special time and a box in which you meet God. As I have read over those type of post, it comes out very loud and clear that this is the case.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 2:07:40 PM
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Dred
Posts: 230
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From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
I don't think that you understand Judaism very well. If you did, you would know that they wouldn't lose track of which day is the Shabbat. And, if they happened to lose track since creation they had plenty of prophets to correct them. Further, He has always had a remnant who have walked with Him.
I think you are probably right about the Jews keeping track of the Sabbath.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
God said "arise and go to Ninevah." Even if it were convenient to do so, I would not feel any need to obey that command.
Neither do I. That was a specific command for Jonah only. Don't blur the lines. We both know (I think) that we are talking about the commandments in the Torah that God has given to all His children.
Precisely, it was for Jonah this was given. God gives some commands to individuals, some to all humanity, and some to a group consisting of more than one human and less than all humans. If I am understanding you properly, you believe all of the "traditional 613" commands are for all humanity. I disagree and I am not alone in my disagreement. Almost all Christians as well as almost all Jews disagree as well.
quote:
Acts 15 isn't about Gentiles keeping Noachide laws. If you have the patience to listen to a sermon you will understand why. It is called "The Sons of Noah". The teacher clearly explains why that isn't referring to the Noachide laws. However, the explanation isn't something that I can write out for you as it is too lengthy. If you're serious about understanding it then I hope you'll listen.
I will consider that when I have spare moments. However, I can literally run into thousands of unusual opinions on these forums (of utmost importance to those who hold them), and can't make it my business to listen to all the lengthy sermons they suggest.
quote:
In Acts 15 they are debating how much of the oral law the new Gentile disciples have to follow.
As I read it, the dispute is described in verse 5 in which some said "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." Given the words used and various levels of context, I find it impossible to believe they were speaking of only the "tradition of the elders" as mentioned in Matthew 15. in fact, since Matthew could call the tradition of the elders just that rather than "the Law of Moses", it seems Luke could have done so here as well. Do you believe that Gentiles should be circumcised as well?
quote:
Another thing to consider is that it is the Sabbath because the elders say it is. They have the ability to make binding decisions like that if need be.
And who are these elders? Are they the ones who make the oral traditions which you admit the Gentiles were not to follow? Are they the ones who determine exemptions for paramedics and soldiers? Are they to act as my judge in regard to food, drink, festivals, new moons, or Sabbath days as Paul commands that I should not allow them to act? Why did you mention previously, as if legal precedent, the fact that one sees ambulances run in Jerusalem on the Sabbath?Those aren't Messianic Jews who make such policy.
quote:
Remember that the word "nomos" can mean either "Law of God" or "law of man". You need to be very discerning and understand the theologies of the First Century Judaisms well.
Is "the Law of Moses" of man or God? When you see "nomos", do you determine what it must mean by first assuming your theology is true? If we all do so, none of us can correct our own theologies if in error.
I don't doubt you mean well, but I can't honestly see what you see in the scriptures we've discussed. I don't argue with anyone who simply desires to keep the 613 commands. If you honestly believe God wishes you to keep them, you should keep them. My own perspective is that the NT on more than one occasion, indicates that the law Christians must be concerned with is that which love automatically dictates. The non-fulfillment of many laws would be incompatible with love. It could even be argued that failing to take one day off work in seven would be incompatible with a proper love of oneself. However, I should keep those laws because I am a new creature who loves rather than to check them off as accomplished. Other laws would not automatically flow from a perfectly developed love. I might still desire to keep those, such as certain feasts to celebrate certain deeper things which make me glad.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 2:19:32 PM
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Dred
Posts: 230
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Okay you people that are worshipping a day of the week.
I feel a need to take a stand here and say I think that statement is unjustified. I don't see how we could possibly know that and I don't believe it is true.
Admittedly, there is a dangerous tendency for many humans to focus on simple rules and procedures and, by doing so, neglect substance. As a math professor, that tendency may well be my greatest enemy in class. However, from the recent posts here, I couldn't possibly know whether anyone in question is neglecting substance, much less worshiping an idol. There is a TOS regarding the making of claims that others aren't Christians because they don't agree with you. The fact that there are threads dedicated to Sabbath and whether we should keep the Law, seems to imply that their opinions are in the range of doctrine here.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 3:57:25 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
If I am understanding you properly, you believe all of the "traditional 613" commands are for all humanity.
His commandments are for all covenant members. I wish that all humanity were covenant members. Wouldn't that be great? :)
quote:
I will consider that when I have spare moments. However, I can literally run into thousands of unusual opinions on these forums (of utmost importance to those who hold them), and can't make it my business to listen to all the lengthy sermons they suggest.
I really hope that you do listen to that sermon and read that article I posted a link for. If you do you will understand Acts 15 much better. Why not download it and listen when you have time?
I can't make it my business to try to explain in a few words concepts that require a lot of study. I have given you the resources to understand my point of view. If you aren't interested then so be it.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 5:19:04 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
Dred:
I feel a need to keep God's command to love my neighbor.
How do we do this? How do we know what is loving and what is not? To avoid being considered of topic, I answer that with the Torah, which Yeshua(Jesus) was quoting when He said this.
Even if you reject the "Law of Moses", the Sabbath was given to Adam in the beginning.
You also questioned the right day argument saying that a sunday "sabbath" would be acceptable. If we follow the "what would Jesus do" theology then show me anywhere in the Scripture where anyone, let alone Yeshua(Jesus), kept another day. What day did the women go to the tomb? I ask this because this is the catholic justification for a sunday "sabbath", but it clearly shows the practice in the time of Yeshua.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 5:22:55 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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Yep, those ladies waited until AFTER the Sabbath to anoint their Master. Obviously, the Sabbath was of great import to them.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/3/2008 10:57:36 PM
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Dred
Posts: 230
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From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
Dred:
I feel a need to keep God's command to love my neighbor.
How do we do this? How do we know what is loving and what is not? To avoid being considered of topic, I answer that with the Torah, which Yeshua(Jesus) was quoting when He said this.
Now you are just making me sad. Do you really claim to be unable to perform acts of love without the aid of a written procedure learned by rote? If such a procedure is necessary to perform loving acts, they do not proceed from love.
quote:
Even if you reject the "Law of Moses", the Sabbath was given to Adam in the beginning.
I recall no record of God speaking to Adam about the Sabbath, though I do recall God speaking through Moses stipulating the Sabbath as a commemoration of what happened at the time of Adam. Is there any scriptural record of anyone observing the Sabbath before the time of Moses? Please provide it if it exists.
quote:
You also questioned the right day argument saying that a sunday "sabbath" would be acceptable.
I never said a Sunday sabbath was acceptable. I raised the possibility of a Sabbath on any day of the week. My primary argument was that it seemed consistent with the scripture I mentioned and I asked for an explanation as to why that was not possible, expecting some argument from scripture. So far, I have received no such explanation. I have been referred to the structure of our modern wall calendars and certain historical or linguistic facts. Regarding the secondary issue I mentioned, I have heard expressions of confidence in generations of humans keeping track of time. I too have some confidence that humans have kept track of the correct day as the seventh. If they possibly have not, the best we can do from a desire for obedience is to observe what we each believe to be the Sabbath. That was my point to begin with: as Paul said, "let no one act as your judge in regard to.....the Sabbath" (among other things). Respect the Sabbath as you honestly believe you should.
< Message edited by Dred -- 4/4/2008 11:14:32 AM >
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/4/2008 12:30:19 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Okay you people that are worshipping a day of the week.
I feel a need to take a stand here and say I think that statement is unjustified. I don't see how we could possibly know that and I don't believe it is true.
Admittedly, there is a dangerous tendency for many humans to focus on simple rules and procedures and, by doing so, neglect substance. As a math professor, that tendency may well be my greatest enemy in class. However, from the recent posts here, I couldn't possibly know whether anyone in question is neglecting substance, much less worshiping an idol. There is a TOS regarding the making of claims that others aren't Christians because they don't agree with you. The fact that there are threads dedicated to Sabbath and whether we should keep the Law, seems to imply that their opinions are in the range of doctrine here.
Boy Dred, you are writing something I never wrote. I have never said that they weren't Christians. All I wrote that (even including me) that we could in anything make it a god. Which would be breaking the first commandment. Remember in Isaiah 58 the first part where the Lord through him wrote that that wasn't the day, but how you acted on it.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/4/2008 3:20:03 PM
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Dred
Posts: 230
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Boy Dred, you are writing something I never wrote. I have never said that they weren't Christians.
That's true and I never said that you said they weren't Christians. However, I probably shouldn't have implied that you were implying they weren't.  I was operating with the assumption that Christians wouldn't worship idols, but you probably only meant to use the phrase hyperbolically as I have heard it used before. I take it you mean something more along the lines that they are placing so much focus on something that it might be distracting them from their primary intended focus on God. That is also my primary concern with all forms of law-intensive religion, though I don't yet feel qualified to make the judgment that the folks we are talking with are terribly distracted.
The language I used to characterize what you said went beyond it and that can easily come across more negatively than it is intended. Did the same thing happen in the statement you used to characterize them?
Anyway, we should talk about the Sabbath here. Do we now observe the Sabbath continuously having entered into His rest as in Hebrews 4? If not, is it Saturday or Sunday? Should we just observe one day of the week as Sabbath depending on our jobs? So far I haven't encountered anyone on the thread saying we should observe it in a legalistic manner on Sunday. Over years past, I heard from several preachers that the Sabbath changed to Sunday, but I've never really heard any half way compelling argument for that assertion. To me it seems almost a comical assertion coming from "Sola Scriptura" types.
Ed
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/4/2008 4:54:48 PM
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LBolt
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This is something you'll have to study more carefully and come to a conclusion on. The seventh day is the Sabbath. It comemorates God's work in creation. Which is why He rested on Sabbath during creation. Matt. 24 where Christ speaks of us praying that our flight be not on a Sabbath tells us it's a specific day. Thousands of years and your calender will tell us that the "seventh day" falls on Saturday.
History will tell you that the RCC changed the Sabbath to Sunday, which they unashamedly admit, as popes and cardinals and honest Catholics will tell you. People of other faiths (muslims, jehovah's witnesses) will tell you that Sabbath is from our Friday sundow to Saturday sundown (muslims have even noted to me that Christians don't even follow).
When Hebrews 3-4 was penned the author noted that there remained a day of rest for the people of God...referring to Sabbath and not Christ. Am I exalting a day above Christ---No. I'm just showing that this was the day He specifically set aside for us.
The reason why we conclude that Acts 15, is referring to pharsaic oral law and not God's word is because we considered the source of the argument. It was the pharisees who came to faith in Yahshua that taught this and understanding Judaism which ascribes to 2 laws of Moses - one written and one supposedly oral- and that they have a teaching that a gentile must be circumcised after their custom and follow oral law in order to be saved-we deduced that the issue pertained to oral law and not the Word of God written by Moses and YHWH's inspiration. Using context we were inclined to believe that the oral law of the elders which is also referred to as "the law of Moses" was what was in question.
That why when people have questions about Sabbath, it is best for them to do the research themselves...search the scriptures, history books and ask questions and just ask important...pray to the Abba for understanding. I know that He would not leave us in the dark especially if we are sincerely searching. It may be hard to admit wrong, one's own self and their teachers, parent...but if we do the search and examine the scriptures it's easy to see. The hard part may be making the adjustments to our lives.
When I discovered for myself that we should keep Sabbath. I had good friends and people turn on me. I was told that I had "fell from grace" and that I was leading my wife and kids down the "wrong path." That I was caught up in "ritualistic stuff", that I needed to leave all that "Jewish stuff alone", that I was a "foolish Galation" and I was in error. I never suffered so much persecution from believers before. I never got so many funny looks before until now. When I read Col. 2 in context and I get to verse 17-18, I see that I'm not supposed to let anyone judge me for keeping Sabbath or celebrating the new moon...
I can honestly say that the scriptures from Genesis-Revelation make more sense than at any other time in my life. I don't have to categorize or dispensationalize the Word of God as theologians have done in order to better grasp the scriptures and why there are seemingly contradictions. There are no contraditions, there is no error in God. The only error is in our understanding.
Shalom to you all, I love you and God truly bless you!
< Message edited by LBolt -- 4/4/2008 5:13:34 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/4/2008 5:03:41 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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LBolt... wonderful post. I especially like how you demonstrated the proper interpretation of Colossians 2.
Please, I highly recommend this sermon series:
Series: The Holy Sabbath
10/21/06 D. Lancaster 1: The Holy Sabbath (part one)
10/28/06 D. Lancaster 2: The Holy Sabbath (part two)
11/18/06 D. Lancaster 3: The Sabbath Breaker
11/25/06 D. Lancaster 4: All Mankind
12/02/06 D. Lancaster 5: The Thirty-Nine
12/09/06 D. Lancaster 6: Do I Have To?
12/09/06 D. Lancaster 7: The Holy and the Normal
http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio-archives.html
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2008 2:05:44 AM
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SAVED_IN_SD
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Im back .......... I went to an Apostolic church for about 3 month's , then left cause I did'nt agree with it's teaching's.Now I am in a Baptist church ... to make a long story short I accidently sent my brother a free book from the internet.Written by E . G. WHite a so called prophet from the Seventh day adventest church .So you can understand my confusion once I went to visit him he told me not to go to church on sunday..... But later tonight he said he was wrong and I explained to him about the book ...... So I read page 1 and page 112 on this thread, both good point's from both sides....The Sabath is Sat.I dont claim the Sabath on Sun.
So if I made a ham sandwich on Sat I did not "keep" the Sabath right ? Im not trying to be funny.I mean people are not being stoned for picking up sticks on Sat ,Like in OT scripture.I understand this.
I do understand how some "Churches" basically trample over the 10 Commandments.
What I want to know is how can I a Baptist (for now) practice and keep the Sabath ? To my best of my ability.Do I just sleep all day long ?
Thanks every one
< Message edited by SAVED_IN_SD -- 4/6/2008 2:45:22 AM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/6/2008 2:37:36 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
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Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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It isn't a topic that can be covered adequately on a few internet posts. I hope that you'll listen to the sermon series I posted above in the post before yours. Shalom.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/7/2008 10:46:41 AM
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mcleod
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Just curious LBolt, iSERVEaJEW, If what you say about 16 and 17 in Colossians chapter 2. Could be taken the other way that you shouldn't judge a person on what day they consider to be their Sabbath day?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/7/2008 11:41:09 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Just curious LBolt, iSERVEaJEW, If what you say about 16 and 17 in Colossians chapter 2. Could be taken the other way that you shouldn't judge a person on what day they consider to be their Sabbath day?
There is not such thing as different Sabbath days (not talking about the special Sabbaths on Festivals). The Sabbath is the seventh day - period.
Col. 2 is written to Gentile believers who were being judged by their former-pagan fellows because they were adopting these "Jewish" practices.
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