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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 12:34:41 PM
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GrahamCracker
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LBolt said quote:
The eternal Sabbath has been revived in Crosswalk!! Grahamcracker, you don't have one scripture to support Sabbath "going out with the Law."
Oh, but I do.
Hebrews 8:13
"When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." This scripture was written 2,000 years ago, longer than the entire period of time from Moses to Christ and the Apostles. If it was "about to disappear," surely we would have been overdue by now if it had not happened. The Temple, priesthood, and sacrifices have not been revived in 2,000 years. Surely that is enough evidence that Jews nor us can keep the law.
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The scripture which seem to suggest that Christ rose on the 1st day of the week actually would have been better translated first Sabbath.
"Better translated" is simply your opinion and I'm betting you have no serious qualifications to call it a "better translation."quote:
Look at those scriptures in all the gospels... it says "first day of the week" Day was added possible due to a biased translator to a Sunday resurrection but "day" is has several possible renderings in the NT. One is "hemera", another is "auge", "epautophoroi", "semeron", "aurion" and "arti". Not one of these words is found in the passages concerning the resurrection.
You can call it bias if you want. I don't think you know what you're talking about.
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I don't care what the "credentialed scholars say" what does the Bible say? If those "credentialed scholars" don't say what the Bible say...let the scriptures be true and everyone else...
You are no Greek scholar. Who do you think you are? When someone tells me they don't care what the scholars say on the language, they make themselves authorities on language and throw the entire issue up to the WHIM of their subjective opinions. No clear and serious argument would ever persuade such a person. Their minds have been made up, no matter what the Bible says.
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Jesus in his two fold end-time discourse exhorted the disciples to pray that their "flight be not on the Sabbath..." If Sabbath was everyday as some "credentialed scholars" and well repected preachers and teachers, then the advise the LORD gave would not make much sense at all! I believe that there is no error in God so the ones who don't make any sense is the "credentialed and well respected preachers" on this matter concerning Sabbath.
I see no problem with the Olivet Discourse wording. What doesn't make sense?
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Hebrew 3 and 4 is clearly talking about Messiah's Sabbath rest. The word day in Strong's refers literal referrs to the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours. He was not referring to a particular person but a certain day and particular Person gave us. The devil and Tradition has beguiled the 2nd Adam's bride!! Come on people it is plain as day!!
Frankly, I don't know what you're getting at. Hebrews 3 and 4 tell us that Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of God's Sabbath rest. When we rest in Christ, we have His "Sabbath rest." Basically, Hebrews 3 and 4 was an admonition for the Jews not to resist the coming of the New Covenant in the same way that the Israelites resisted the coming of the first covenant.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 2:08:05 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
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quote:
You are no Greek scholar. Who do you think you are?
You aren't either!!! I think I am a child of God!! Were the disciples "credentialed" by man or were they credential by God Almighty himself. I respect scholarly work and regard it highly. I just respect the word of God more than word of man especially when it doesn't line up with a plethora of other scriptures.
The New Covenant is nothing more than the Torah being written on the hearts of His people. The reason for the Olivet discourse is to show that Sabbath is still valid. They were told to pray that are flight be not on the Sabbath...if everyday as you and the "credential" teach why would we pray such a prayer. Everyday is the Sabbath!!!
Listen, when we accept Jesus yes we do enter a rest. But we are to observe the Sabbath which Jesus and Paul did. If Christ were here today in the flesh, He'd be found keeping Sabbath. What we must learn to do is not spiritualize away the word of God.
Congratulations on the birth of your granddaughter!!! How many lbs and height.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 2:40:09 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
You are no Greek scholar. Who do you think you are?
You aren't either!!!
I do not claim to be! But you are saying that translation linguists are all wrong. I am saying they are right. So before I go around saying the Bible translators translated it wrong, I would want to have some linguistic skills and background.
So it doesn't really matter how I think it could be translated. But it does matter if you think the translators are all wrong.
quote:
I think I am a child of God!!
But so am I. But you didn't really answer the question I asked. Being a child of God doesn't give any of us translation authority. You might assume presidential authority because you are an American citizen. It carries about the same weight.
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Were the disciples "credentialed" by man or were they credential by God Almighty himself.
God gives linguistic degrees? Somehow you are confusing apostolic authority with linguistic skills and abilities.
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I respect scholarly work and regard it highly.
No, you don't. You have already said you don't care what they say. If you can't respect them if you don't care what they say.
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The New Covenant is nothing more than the Torah being written on the hearts of His people.
So you agree that we are in the New Covenant? Are we in 2 covenants at the same time?
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The reason for the Olivet discourse is to show that Sabbath is still valid.
Actually, that was not the purpose of the Olivet Discourse. The purpose of the Olivet Discourse was to answer the disciples' questions: When will these things be? [destruction of the Temple] and the sign of [His] coming?
quote:
They were told to pray that are flight be not on the Sabbath...if everyday as you and the "credential" teach why would we pray such a prayer.
I take it that you believe we will be observing the Sabbath in the future because of Jesus' warning that they hope and pray that their [our?] flight from Jerusalem would not be on the Sabbath. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't live in Jerusalem. The warning therefore would not apply to me. It applied to the Jews living in Jerusalem at the time.
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Everyday is the Sabbath!!!
That seems to be a meaningless answer in the context of your other comments. Saturday Sabbath observance has a specific application. To suggest that everyday is the Sabbath is in conflict with the specific purpose you seem to believe we should observe. Saturday Sabbath observance involves either an an absence of work and/or a day of worship. I agree with worshipping God everyday but it is not practical to abstain from working every day. So to say that every day is the Sabbath suggests that one doesn't work every day.
quote:
Listen, when we accept Jesus yes we do enter a rest. But we are to observe the Sabbath which Jesus and Paul did. If Christ were here today in the flesh, He'd be found keeping Sabbath. What we must learn to do is not spiritualize away the word of God.
Exactly where does the NT command us to observe the Sabbath?
quote:
Congratulations on the birth of your granddaughter!!! How many lbs and height.
7 pounds and 3 ounces, 20 1/2 inches long.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/3/2008 3:27:09 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 2:51:56 PM
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bjay0801
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Acts 15:19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 3:46:49 PM
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LBolt
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There's a word translated in Acts 12:4 it is "Easter" this is clearly a bad translation! It would have been more accurately translated "Passover." But the translators were probably more inclined to use Easter instead of Passover.
WOW!!!! I didn't need a linguistic degree to figure that out!!
Messiah rose one the first of the 7 Sabbaths leading up to Pentecost.
Anyhow!!!! Let me take my non scholarly but somewhere else!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 4:24:38 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
There's a word translated in Acts 12:4 it is "Easter" this is clearly a bad translation! It would have been more accurately translated "Passover." But the translators were probably more inclined to use Easter instead of Passover.
WOW!!!! I didn't need a linguistic degree to figure that out!!
Is this an attempt at obscurantism? I have no idea what this has to do with the present discussion unless you are trying to discredit all translation based upon the KJV's 300 year old rendering. Since I don't use the KJV very much, such a debate is not at issue here. The NET doesn't translate it Easter anyway.
I have addressed your claim that I couldn't support my view that the first covenant was over. I addressed your claim that the Olivet Discourse supports the continuation of the Sabbath to this present day (context).
quote:
Messiah rose one the first of the 7 Sabbaths leading up to Pentecost.
Anyhow!!!! Let me take my non scholarly but somewhere else!
The date of Pentecost was determined with regard to Passover. Passover was not determined after Pentecost. They would not pinpoint the date of Passover and the surrounding days as it relates to Pentecost. The very meaning of Pentecost involved 50 days following Passover, as I understand it. So "first of the Sabbaths" has no beneficial application to the immediate context of the gospel writer. It obscures the meaning the writer intended. As I said, it is a rather convoluted translation.
The context of the gospels suggests that such an interpretation of the wording is incorrect. In a strictly convoluted sense, one might twist the wording to suggest such a meaning but it is contextually unlikely and grammatically unnecessary. The shortest distances between two points is a straight line, not a maze.
The same day that Mary arrived at the tomb (Matt 28:1, Luke 24:1) is the same day that the disciples met Jesus on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24: 13,21-22).
[verse 13] "Now that very day two fo them were on their way to a village called Emmaus [verse 21]...but it is now the third day since these things happened. vs 22 Furthermore, some women of our group amazed us. They were at the tomb early..."
If Sunday were the third day, and if Jesus rose on the third day, as He said, it follows that Jesus arose on Sunday. We might argue about whether He arose prior to the rising of the sun. I have not objection to that. But since the first day began at sundown the previous (our Saturday) evening, any resurrection after sundown would be accounted as Sunday by Jewish reckoning.
Note: The disciples were traveling between Jerusalem and Emmaus (7.5 miles), certainly not permissible on Saturday/Sabbath.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/3/2008 4:37:36 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 4:54:36 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
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But when did His resurrection determine us disregarding the 4th commandment. This is the thought process of most believers. That since Messiah rose on Sunday we congregate on this day in honor of it.
quote:
Note: The disciples were traveling between Jerusalem and Emmaus (7.5 miles), certainly not permissible on Saturday/Sabbath.
Where did the Bible put restrictions on how many miles one was to travel? Oral Law yes, Bible no.
Pentecost is also known as Feast of Weeks. 7 weeks plus 1 day after Passover was Pentecost. The word week (is sabatton) and is translated as Sabbath. Day is italicized and was added by the translators. He rose on the first day of the omer count.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 5:53:34 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
But when did His resurrection determine us disregarding the 4th commandment. This is the thought process of most believers. That since Messiah rose on Sunday we congregate on this day in honor of it.
It didn't. But that is not my argument. It might be the argument of others but not mine. The command to observe the the Seventh Day Sabbath is from the First Covenant, the Law. So the obligation to observe it went out when the Law was fulfilled in Christ and God's people were given a new covenant to replace the old.
quote:
quote:
Note: The disciples were traveling between Jerusalem and Emmaus (7.5 miles), certainly not permissible on Saturday/Sabbath.
Where did the Bible put restrictions on how many miles one was to travel? Oral Law yes, Bible no.
Try to focus on my point. It doesn't necessary matter whether or not that that the Law (Torah) specified a traveling distance on the Sabbath.
Let us grant that the disciples were accustomed to following the law, whether it was many of the ones the Pharisees and Scribes required as well as the ones that were legitimate. Anyway, they would probably not have been permitted to travel on the Sabbath or at least did not normally do so. The distance between Jerusalem and Emmaus exceeded the permissible or customary traveling distance.
Ergo, since they obviously exceeded the normal traveling distance, it was probably not the Sabbath during which they were traveling. Otherwise, they would have been regarded as going on a journey (not permissible). And in their conversation with Jesus, they revealed that the women had seen Jesus that same day. And it was still "the Third Day," ergo, Sunday.
quote:
Pentecost is also known as Feast of Weeks. 7 weeks plus 1 day after Passover was Pentecost. The word week (is sabatton) and is translated as Sabbath. Day is italicized and was added by the translators. He rose on the first day of the omer count.
I am aware of that. Italizations are often excuses for interpreting it as a bias of the translators.
And you are suggesting that their writing intended to convey that distance of time (Passover to Pentecost) in the narrative. You really have no other precedent for such a translation of the wording. Pentecost was not nearly so central to their accounting of holidays as Passover was. One might reference Pentecost with regard to Passover, but not the Passover time with reference to Pentecost. We already have, in the narrative, a comments regarding first day, second day, third day, etc. If anything, it would be either a reference to the events surround the crucifixion and burial or the days of the week.
While I suppose it is permissible to interpret it the way you suggest, it is entirely unnecessary unless one simply doesn't like the notion that Jesus arose on Sunday. If one is seeking an alternative interpretation of the passage, they would want to twist the wording so as to suggest its meaning is different. It looks like a convoluted attempt to twist the words of the passage into saying something that it doesn't have to say.
The motive appears to be transparent: That you don't like the popular idea that Jesus arose on Sunday and therefore you are looking for an alternative interpretation/translation of the passage. The surrounding context of the gospels suggests that there is no need for it.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/3/2008 6:58:00 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 6:15:52 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
It didn't. But that is not my argument. It might be the argument of others but not mine. The command to observe the the Seventh Day Sabbath is from the First Covenant, the Law. So the obligation to observe it went out when the Law was fulfilled in Christ and God's people were given a new covenant to replace the old.
What is the New Covenant according to scripture and what is the Old Covenant according to scripture?
Give scripture references. Or copy and paste the verses, then we'll analysis it.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 7:27:32 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
It didn't. But that is not my argument. It might be the argument of others but not mine. The command to observe the the Seventh Day Sabbath is from the First Covenant, the Law. So the obligation to observe it went out when the Law was fulfilled in Christ and God's people were given a new covenant to replace the old.
What is the New Covenant according to scripture and what is the Old Covenant according to scripture? Give scripture references. Or copy and paste the verses, then we'll analysis it.
Hebrews chapter 8 quotes Jeremiah 31 at length. The Old Covenant was the one that began after the Israelites left Egypt.
The new one is the one inaugurated by Christ's death for us. "by this will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (10:9)
Chapter 10. 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."
Now Christ is the the mediator of a new covenant (9:15). Jeremiah's reference to the coming new covenant is mentioned in Hebrews 10:16 and Hebrews tells us that it is a new and living way (10:20).
We know that Hebrews said the Old Covenant was passing away at that time. We know that Hebrews continually says that Christ was bringing in something entirely new. It further makes several references to the New Covenant. It expressly says that Christ is the mediator of the new covenant (9:15).
"...He does away with the first to establish the second." (Hebrews 10:10)
Some of these scriptures are brief snippets but I am confident that my interpretation is in keeping with the intended context. While they are certainly brief, their intended referents (not references) address the topic of our conversation. I can reach no other conclusion than that the Old Covenant has been fulfilled in Christ and that we are under the new one.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 10:45:45 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
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I'll add to the list you gave:
Deut. 5:29
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Ezeliel 11:
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. 19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 36:25-38
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Hebrews 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, F23 which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their F32 sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
There are more but these will suffice. What is the new covenant? I mean what do these verses say it is?
According to these verses, to whom was this covenant given to?
Why was this new covenant given? Probably the most important question.
You answered the when. It was instituted at the cross and thereafter.
Let's discuss the bolded portion. The what.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 8:54:01 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
There are more but these will suffice. What is the new covenant? I mean what do these verses say it is?
According to these verses, to whom was this covenant given to?
Those verse don't say what it is. They describe it.
1) It was given to Israel (Israel and Judah). Then, Gentiles were "grafted in." Essentially, "whosoever." (Romans 9:30, 10:4)
2) Jeremiah and Hebrews don't mention Gentiles being part of the new covenant. While it doesn't specifically call it the new covenant, that is discussed in the epistles. (Ephesians 2:11-14) Paul says that both Jews and Gentiles have now been made one--when he "nullified the the law of commandments in decrees." (Eph 2:14)
3) Furthermore, Paul says "which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel..." (Eph. 3:4-5)
So while the new covenant was originally promised to Israel, there was little mention in the OT of Gentiles. Paul not only tells us that it was a new revelation (that explains why Jeremiah doesn't mention the Gentiles), Paul also tells us that the regulations against us in the law were "nullified."
Now with regard to one phrase you have put in bold, which I have heard others discuss as well: "I will put my laws into their hearts." I have heard others suggest that it refers to "The Torah" (Mosaic covenant) being put into our hearts. Since they suggest, it has not been done, they conclude that we have not yet arrived at the new covenant. I don't know if that is your purpose, but others have said that. I can only comment briefly that Jeremiah says that the new covenant would not be like the old covenant which God made when Israel left Egypt (Jer 31:32)
With regard to the verses in Ezekiel. I can only comment that they were written while Israel was still in dispersion (11:17), and that it has already been fulfilled. Ezekiel was written after the Babylonian Captivity had begun but the restoration to Israel had not begun. You can document this by any number of commentators who can give you the general context of its time of writing. It appears that you want to place those prophesies you mentioned as yet future. They are not. They were future to Ezekiel and his target audience but past to us.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 9:36:09 AM
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Dougeb
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if i have to observe the sabath as law as sugested it it would be the whole sabath law of rests . to have a yr of jubelee. do we rest from work every 7 yrs. the letter killeth but the spirit of the law sets free. #1 i am a gentile that is how the s.d.a. start, first it is the sabath law then they try and put you under the food law. JESUS gave a commandment of Love that is the law to keep. PAUL said he preached the cross and Christ that is our JOB!!! not to put someone under law. if the HOLY SPIRIT is the one who convicts of sin. and JESUS's church meaning US, who LOVE him feel no such conviction. the LORD seem to have no such conviction on US and man is trying to put us under such.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 12:05:42 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dougeb
if i have to observe the sabath as law as sugested it it would be the whole sabath law of rests . to have a yr of jubelee. do we rest from work every 7 yrs.
Hmmm...very interesting. Never thought about that before. I'm going to have to review those requirements in my next reading session.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 3:15:03 PM
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Dougeb
Posts: 32
Joined: 6/29/2008
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lev.25 six years you shall sow your field ,and six years you shall prune your vinyard, and gather its fruit; but in the seventh year it shall be a [sabbath] of solemn rest for the land a [sabbath] to the LORD. is this also not a sabbath rest . the year of jubilee the day of attonment so much in this cant write it all these are all 7th sabbaths why keep one and not the rest.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 3:43:24 PM
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Dougeb
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and you shall count seven sabbath of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty nine years. then you shall cause the trumpet of the jubileee to sound on the 10th day of the seventh mounth ;on the day of atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. and you shall consercrate the fift ieth year,and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 3:45:28 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dougeb
lev.25 six years you shall sow your field ,and six years you shall prune your vinyard, and gather its fruit; but in the seventh year it shall be a [sabbath] of solemn rest for the land a [sabbath] to the LORD. is this also not a sabbath rest . the year of jubilee the day of attonment so much in this cant write it all these are all 7th sabbaths why keep one and not the rest.
Indeed. One cannot pick and choose what parts they want to obey. If they are obligated to keep the law, then they should keep it all.
Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
(underline emphasis mine)
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 1:40:20 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
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Sorry it took me awhile to get back, spending time with the family.
I believe these verses do say what it is. The OT scriptures are prophetic for the fulfillment of what we are experiencing and will experience. In Devarim 5:29, It was Elohim's desire that there was a heart in Israel to keep his commandment. So what we see is that there was a heart issue or condition. Yahshua in the Brit Hadasha spoke of the parables of the soils of which Israel had a stony heart. Despite being brought out of Mitzrayim with a mighty and outstretched arm, with signs and wonders afflicting th most powerful empire at that time, they still broke the covenant of God repeatedly and possessed a lack of faith in order to enter the promised land. The lapsed in to mixed worship, murmered and complained against Moshe and broke Elohim's commandments.
The problem was not with the Torah, because every God and perfect gift comes from the Abba of lights. The problem was with a stony heart. The covenant was given on clay tablets much like the heart of the people. So Yah already knowing the problem desired a people whose heart was circumcised whom He could impart His teachings and instructions to. Yermiyah 31:31, Ezekiel and Hebrews 8,10 echoes the will of the Abba, which was to give them a new heart and a new spirit or to write His Brit (covenant) on the hearts and minds of the people of Israel and Judah.
You are write that non-Jews were engrafted into the covenant. This is much like when a foreigner chooses to become a US citizens or better yet, this is more like when a family adopts a child into their home. That child takes on the new family name, identity, inheritance... You see this with faithful people like Caleb who was a Kennizite, Ruth who was a Moabbite and the mixed multitude who came out of Mitzrayim with Israel under Moses. They were all one nation at the foot of Mt. Sinai entering into the first covenant.
In Exodus 19:5-6 it is revealed the Yah wanted the whole nation to be a kingdom of priests unto Him and serve as a model nation who would show forth the glory of Elohim to all nations. They were to be a holy people who would serve Yah according to His standards and not the instructions of the pagan nations nor worship their elohims. Hebrews mentions the instituting of another priesthood, the Melchizedek priesthood. Which is why things changed because of the new priesthood.
Torah was to be written upon our hearts and minds, forgiveness of sins, to name a few things was the new covenant. Another name for the covenant is "The Renewed Covenant" or the "Unused Covenant" because Israel never fully experience the covenant promises do to their failure. Hebrews tells us that Elohim found fault with them (the people) and not His covenant. A simple reading of Psalms 119 attests to the beauty, eternity and veracity of the Torah.
quote:
I can only comment briefly that Jeremiah says that the new covenant would not be like the old covenant which God made when Israel left Egypt (Jer 31:32)
You are absolutely right, the Old Covenant was wrote on a stony tablet to a people with a stony heart. The New Covenant is and shall be written on the hearts of a people with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel) with a new spirit (the Ruach HaKodesh) who will love to keep His covenant. It is written with the finger of Elohim. A understanding of the Old and New Covenant is crucial!
With regards to honoring the Sabbath, I do so because I have a heart to do so not because it's a ceremonial requirement. It's the Brit written on my heart! Yes Yahshua is our rest. This is the sod (spiritual) level of Sabbath but it doesn't undermine the pashat lev | | |
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