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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 7:01:14 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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I know I'm jumping back aways... I'll will attempt to not repeat what someone else has said, and please forgive me if this is long...quote:
I have read most of this thread and was going to refrain... but if sox's can talking about clucking and barking and get a laugh, then I can talk about the 2.7 mile prayer walk at The Call Nashville in July and the whole 12 hour prayer meeting at Titan Stadium.... lets see what I get. Blessed, thanks for the thoughts on The Call: Nashville... I so wanted to go to that one, but I had responsibilities here. Even if it isn't popular online, I think you will find in eternity that there are many people that had their lives changed at The Call.quote:
As far as the "focus" of abortion... I am the proud mother of a 19 year old unbeliever who because of Lou Engel and his group is going to give me a beautiful granddaughter in April, her life is far from prefect but she heard and made the choice, the only choice... so that is one life I know for sure that was saved as a result of those repetitive prayers and those wasteful 12 hr prayer meetings. That is what I would call "fruit". We prayed, God moved on the heart of a young one, and a life was saved. That is an astounding testimony as to the power of prayer.quote:
If you've read through most of the thread, then you've seen the issues we're discussing here. What you've presented is good works and outward appearances to support IHOP. Yes, those things can definitely seem good and right, but in digging deeper and going beyond outward appearances, the real issues and problems start to surface. So you discount a saved life because of a doctrinal difference? Once again, I submit to you that we are not discussing the foundation of Christianity, but secondary issues. Nothing raised here attacks the veracity or the authority of the Bible, nothing questions the humanity or the divinity of Christ... so really you are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory... much the same as people who say that Bill Hybles should do the impossible by refunding millions of dollars to people who voluntarily bought his books.quote:
If that "crying out" is done in such a way that it contradicts scripture it is wrong. So we place rules on the crying out to God? What about Elijah having to pray seven times before it rained on the land of Israel? What about Naaman having to dip himself seven times in the river Jordan? Was that out of line?quote:
If what the people who attended "The Call" understood a falsehood, it is still a falsehood. And anyone who saw that, while it may be a "misunderstanding" in the eyes of Lou Engel's supporters, it is knowing a falsehood when they see it. I dont care if ten million people "understand" what Lou was saying. It is still wrong! The fun part is that people who think it might be right are automatically labled as "misled" or "decieved". Once again, you are stepping into traffic on a two way street after looking one way. I must say that it is somewhat common... this person agrees with me, they must be right. Consider this, I've talked to somewhere around 100 people who were at the Call personally, and they all loved it and felt moved by it. If we are talking about demographics, and 95% of the people at The Call loved it, what makes the 5% that felt oogy more correct? That's really the question I would love to ask... if there is one bad report, everyone else must have been duped. And that is not the case.quote:
The holy spirit will not lead two different groups to two different conclusions. To apply your argument somewhere else, there can only be one denomination of the church that is right. Would you care to comment on which is "truly led by the Holy Spirit"? Once again, God is not wrong or double-minded, but people are.quote:
And when we are talking about claiming God will rain judgment down, I am sorry, but errors in theology like that do need to be confronted. Except that God "raining judgement down" is seen all throughout the Old Testament, and in the book of Revelation. So really you have examples in the Old Testament of God judging nations, and you have an example in the New Testament of God judging the whole Earth. I'm sure that if the New Testament had more History in it (like to OT) you would find God judging nations for sin as well (IE, the Great Fire in Rome).quote:
Hitler was not sent by God Actually, he kinda was.... Romans 3:1 says that all authority is from God. What did Jesus tell Pilate? "You would have no authority over me unless it is given to you from above." (John 19) Hate to be the bad guy, but God raised up Hitler, Nero, Pharaoh (Romans 9:17), and will raise up the Antichrist (Revelation 6).quote:
Judgment on the other hand comes from God Himself. Sometimes He works through others to fulfill His judgment, but it is always from Him. Fully agreed, and never questioned.quote:
But this was before the cross, before Christ Jesus died to atone for all sins. Pardon me, sir, but your dispensationalism is showing. I would say that Jesus died for the sins of the world in that He was not only the final sacrifice necessary for sin, but that He is also a perpetual sacrifice for sin. (Note, he was slain from before the foundation of the World (heb 9:26), but is the lamb looking as if slain (Revelation 5:6)). Once again, we are not arguing about obtaining forgiveness. We are talking about God's zeal for righteousness and Justice (Revelation 19). Either the Just is given for the unjust, or the unjust are still unjust... this is basic Christianity. In Hebrews it says that the blood of animals was not sufficient for the forgiveness of sins, so what was it's purpose? It was a foreshadowing/claim of placing oneself in the Messianic redemption. By offering the sin offerings you were saying "I'm guilty of sin, but God is sending a redeemer that will cleanse my sin." The real problem is that you are taking this view that because Jesus has come, God's zeal for righteousness in the Nations is somehow deteriorated or "on the back burner"... and the Bible gives no indication of this... in fact, the book of Revelation would pretty much be the antithesis of this claim. As would Joel 3, Isaiah 19, and a multitude of other unfulfilled OT prophecies.quote:
David had to lose his first child with Bathsheba. But now that Christ Jesus has come, we do not have to make those sacrifices anymore. So David's son was a human sacrifice for the partial forgiving of David's sin? I don't think so. In fact, I really, REALLY don't think so. Why? (A) God told Israel that they were specifically NOT to sacrifice their children for their religion and (B) Nathan told David that his sin was forgiven him... not that his son had to die for that forgiveness. You want to talk about questionable doctrine, I find that particularly intriguing.quote:
As in, our sins are not only forgiven, but FORGOTTEN as well. When we confess to the Lord our sins, and believe with our hearts He is Lord, our sins are forgotten for all eternity. Therefore, as I said, NO BELIEVER will EVER have our sins counted against us for any judgment.
Question... are you posturing that at salvation all of our sins, even the ones uncommitted, are completely removed from us? Because if that is the case, ask for forgiveness once, and then live however you like... Go get laid, go committ murder... "Surely the Lord does not see, surely the most high does not hear..." You see where I'm going? This is why repentence is an ongoing process. I agree, Christians will not be judged for their sins, however, the nation my be judged for it's sins. That is just the way God seems to like it.quote:
But that simply does not agree with Scripture. You also again are confusing suffering and judgment which as I stated are not two and the same. We may suffer on earth because of the sins of man. But that is not a judgment from God. For God will NOT judge those who believe. Even at the Throne of Judgment, we will be found righteous in His eyes because we are in the book of life. We escape judgment because we are saved! In the eternal sense, I heartily agree. In the here and now, I can't. He disciplines the ones he loves... If God does not discipline you, he doesn't not love you. That sounds harsh, but that is what the Bible says. **mufasa** quote:
Why do we not offer animal sacrifices? Does not God never change? Once again, you are looking at the law, and I am looking at the nature of God. I'm not saying we need to continue the levitical system of sacrifice, I'm saying we need to repent of our sins, or the nature of God demands Justice for our sins. This is a total confusing of the issue. The issue is not "sacrifice=forgiveness" The issue IS "repent or be judged". If you have a problem with God judging Sin, then I suggest you don't read anything related to Hell... or the end times... or most of the Old Testament.quote:
The point is we HAVE to interpret the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. Does this mean getting rid of the OT and preaching only from the NT, may it never be! I would say that this is skewed. The Old Testament is the context into which the New Testament is written. If you do not have a fundamental grasp of who God is in the Old Testament, your grasp of the gravity of the New Testament will be equally shaky. It's true, Christ Jesus is found all throughout the Old Testament... I have never argued with that. I'm telling you that the nature of God as seen in the Old Testament is still the way he is in the New Testament. Hopefully that makes this make a little more sense.quote:
am not arguing that it is either judgment or forgiveness. What I am saying is that NO believer will EVER be caught up in judgment. God will NEVER punish a believer for any sin. And I would argue that God disciplines the ones He loves... If God would discipline/judge the ONLY person to be called "a man after My own heart" and the only man to be called "a Friend of God", he will do it to anyone He loves. It is that simple.quote:
But that is what you and Lou are saying when you say that God will send a judgment onto America requiring blood for all the blood that abortion has killed. And again, the fact you used blood to make this statement is all the more chilling in that Christ Jesus was the last to give blood for mankind. His blood is all that matters. Again, no amount of the blood of man can ever cover the sin of abortion. We can sacrifice 10 BILLION people and it will not be enough to atone for abortion. Aaaaaaand, Once again, I'm not talking about sacrifice, I'm talking about Justice. Man (A) murders Man (B).... Justice is that Man (B) recieves the death penalty. This execution is not the forgiveness of Man (B), but is the just consequences. You are making this sound like we are claiming that there will be some kind of mass killing as the means to which God forgives America for Abortion, and that is just not the case. Any kind of Judgement that God gives America for the sin of abortion would be duely earned Justice. The wages of sin is death... period.quote:
Dont forget that the non-believer WILL get his judgment if he does not repent. Not in this world, but in eternity! In the eternal sense, absolutely. However, I would contend that God has means of punishing/disciplining/judging sin even in this life... because there are so many documented cases of him doing it in the Bible. This is the really fun part of Biblical discussion... Even when you do show Biblical evidence to support you, there is always an explanation as to why it isn't valid... even though you show complete chapters. It's really quite interesting.
Adam
PS: more later... bed time... oh, and school starts Tomorrow!
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 11:52:14 AM
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lw9
Posts: 877
Joined: 7/22/2005
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FurGodWurLivin:
quote:
lw9: If you've read through most of the thread, then you've seen the issues we're discussing here. What you've presented is good works and outward appearances to support IHOP. Yes, those things can definitely seem good and right, but in digging deeper and going beyond outward appearances, the real issues and problems start to surface.
quote:
FurGodWurLivin: So you discount a saved life because of a doctrinal difference? Once again, I submit to you that we are not discussing the foundation of Christianity, but secondary issues. Nothing raised here attacks the veracity or the authority of the Bible, nothing questions the humanity or the divinity of Christ... so really you are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory... much the same as people who say that Bill Hybles should do the impossible by refunding millions of dollars to people who voluntarily bought his books.
You're laying it on really thick, Adam. If you believe people should judge according to outward appearances because outward appearances are always trustworthy [at least in IHOP's case], well, good luck with that because that's not the reality that Christ taught us. Christ taught us to dig deeper and examine all things through scripture.
The authority of the Bible is very much in question when any group promotes and supports false prophesy and false prophets along with other unBiblical practices and beliefs. By doing this, IHOP has rejected clear scripture and the authority of scripture to set the standard for them. Instead, IHOP is running ahead according to their own 'wisdom' and the word of their 'prophets'.
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 1:41:18 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
The authority of the Bible is very much in question when any group promotes and supports false prophesy and false prophets along with other unBiblical practices and beliefs. By doing this, IHOP has rejected clear scripture and the authority of scripture to set the standard for them. Instead, IHOP is running ahead according to their own 'wisdom' and the word of their 'prophets'.
The above cannot be overstated enough. Nor should it be glossed over by some.
We have hit one of the main cruxes in this entire discussion with the above statement. When a group starts to do that, their end is not a nice one.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 2:02:38 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
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Greetings Brothers! Show me why it is false to pray without ceasing, show me it is false to want to continually offer God praise. Show why it is false to punch a clock once a week with God. Show me where it is written that Jesus said He will not send wise men, prophets, and scribes. I know it is written that some would pursue them from town to town instead. Blessed are they when people falsely say all kinds of evil against you for the sake of Jesus and His Name is what is written. If anyone comes in their own name they are received and they give praise to each other for they love the praise of men. If anyone comes in The Name of The Lord, some will not receive them as brothers in The Lord. It is written: if you did it to the least of these thy bretheren you did it to Me. It is written also that if someone causes a little one (brother) to trip, it would be better to commit suicide like Judas. It is also written that Paul cares very little about how he is judged by any worldly court, for it is The Lord that will be The Judge on The Great Day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
The authority of the Bible is very much in question when any group promotes and supports false prophesy and false prophets along with other unBiblical practices and beliefs. By doing this, IHOP has rejected clear scripture and the authority of scripture to set the standard for them. Instead, IHOP is running ahead according to their own 'wisdom' and the word of their 'prophets'.
The above cannot be overstated enough. Nor should it be glossed over by some.
We have hit one of the main cruxes in this entire discussion with the above statement. When a group starts to do that, their end is not a nice one.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/8/2008 2:10:39 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 2:06:34 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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prophetica,
Have you read the entire thread? Because your post seems to say no.
It is wrong to promote and support false prophesy. It is wrong to reject Scripture and the authority of Scripture for fallible men. It is wrong to run on the accord of proven false prophets in lieu of the Bible.
I am sure you can agree with the above statements.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 2:10:55 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
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Greetings earthless! Show me how to pray, is what is written. The Lord tells them to pray for His Will to be done upon the earth. Forgive me, that we can only discern what the leaders are saying and not what each person believes. Therefore, shouldn't we be lovingly accepting of others as an example. For Christ loved us when we were yet sinners.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
prophetica,
Have you read the entire thread? Because your post seems to say no.
It is wrong to promote and support false prophesy. It is wrong to reject Scripture and the authority of Scripture for fallible men. It is wrong to run on the accord of proven false prophets in lieu of the Bible.
I am sure you can agree with the above statements.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 2:19:01 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
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From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
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prophetica,
You didn't answer my questions.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 2:27:57 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
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Dear Earthless! Who am I to answer to you regarding anything so great as the Grace of God?
If I want to be tried by you or other people, does that mean that I will escape the coming Judgment of God?
I see, in your other thread, that you are willing to ignore what The Lord had accomplished through a word that He had given to someone. You were willing to still make fun of it, and called it false instead.
Therefore, all I see is people who are wanting to disregard the Power of God in someone elses life and the lives of others and labelling it false in order to judge others instead.
I would like to know why I should believe you and no one else when it comes to calling things false. You will say that you judge according to the Scriptures. I will say that The Scriptures say to test everything and hold on to what is Good. It is written judge not lest you be judged. If I find a fleck of dust in my neighbors eye, but ignore the huge telephone pole in my own; how can I see clearly enough to remove a speck of dust from my neighbors eye?
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
prophetica,
You didn't answer my questions.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 2:39:48 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
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prophetica,
I have never said that I am to be looked at for truth. I have always pointed everyone and anyone to the Bible for God's truth to all of mankind.
You don't have to answer any of my questions, you're right. That's your decision to make, but it seems odd that you wouldn't want to answer simple questions based off of your very own assertions in this thread.
But I guess that's the norm when people don't like their super stars touched.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 3:06:09 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
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Greetings earhless! What question did you want me to answer again?
If I called people false teachers who adhere to the teaching of pre tribulation rapture, what would you say? This is a doctrinal issue too, though. Would you be offended to know that some of the 'superstars' in this theology don't get discussed about like some have undertaken to do with some?
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
prophetica,
I have never said that I am to be looked at for truth. I have always pointed everyone and anyone to the Bible for God's truth to all of mankind.
You don't have to answer any of my questions, you're right. That's your decision to make, but it seems odd that you wouldn't want to answer simple questions based off of your very own assertions in this thread.
But I guess that's the norm when people don't like their super stars touched.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/8/2008 4:07:33 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 4:11:03 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Adam,
First off I just want to apologize if I have ever made it sound like I believe you or anyone else at IHOP are grossly unchristian or any thing like that. I do believe that you all are Christ following fellow believers, despite our differences. I have tried to watch my words to make sure that I dont go down the road of calling you or anyone else heretics or anything close to that, and seeing as our discussion on this past topic has seemed to get a little heated, I just want to make sure that you know that.
As for the topic at hand I feel it is best if I pulled out of this discussion. I still have great concerns on what you support and what was taught by Lou Engel, but you have brought up some points that, to be honest, I dont have an answer to. I have to do some more personal study and go further in depth into hamartiology and soteriology to find my own answers before I continue to speak on the issue here. I have always tried to have the attitude of fighting for what I believe, until such a time where someone challenges me to the point where I have to review what I believe. And I have to do that now. So good luck. I still will be watching this thread, and if another topic comes up, I may voice my opinion...But for now, take care and God bless.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 4:51:19 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings earhless! What question did you want me to answer again?
If I called people false teachers who adhere to the teaching of pre tribulation rapture, what would you say? This is a doctrinal issue too, though. Would you be offended to know that some of the 'superstars' in this theology don't get discussed about like some have undertaken to do with some?
What would I say? I would say you were wrong, why? Because eschatology is not a core essential of Christianity. It is a secondary issue, something we can disagree on but not have to divide over.
Major difference. Apples and oranges.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 5:27:47 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 188
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Thank you earthless for the clarification of the issue! Show me where the Lord states that We can view these Doctrines in that manner, though. I mysteriously do not see that at Scripture.
Both apples and oranges are sill fruits. We can choose not to divide against each other on these, though, as you say.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings earhless! What question did you want me to answer again?
If I called people false teachers who adhere to the teaching of pre tribulation rapture, what would you say? This is a doctrinal issue too, though. Would you be offended to know that some of the 'superstars' in this theology don't get discussed about like some have undertaken to do with some?
What would I say? I would say you were wrong, why? Because eschatology is not a core essential of Christianity. It is a secondary issue, something we can disagree on but not have to divide over.
Major difference. Apples and oranges.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/8/2008 5:35:58 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/8/2008 7:08:05 PM
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ManimalX
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I would love to develop this post further, but I have 2 chapters of Philosophy to wade through and a debate question to answer, so I can't take long here.
Regarding Prayer:
It seems that those against the one-word prayer are taking their x-acto knife, cutting out the Lord's prayer, isolating it from the rest of the Bible, and trying to make a doctrine out of it. The problem is that when you do this, you are ignoring the plethora of additional teaching the rest of Scripture has to offer concerning prayer. Stephanos rightly pointed out a variety of different types of prayer (petition, intercession, etc), that we can see being offered all throughout the Bible.
The Lord's prayer is a model and a heart-check, not a formula. You can even know it is not a strict formula because Jesus teaches it differently in different Gospels! I would make the argument that a passionate cry of, "Life!" by 20,000 saints completely fulfills what Jesus was teaching us in the Lord's prayer.
Tell me: what is prayer? The answer isn't complicated: prayer is communicating with God! That is it! Prayer is not for God' sake, but for ours! He doesn't need a formula to hear us! As Stephanos also correctly pointed out, the Bible says that God already knows what we need and want before we ask. The point is the communication, the intimacy. Just as there are many ways for my children to communicate with me, there are many ways for me to communicate, or pray, to the Heavenly Father. When my son is sobbing in tears because the dog jumped on his head when the doorbell rang, I don't tell him, "Sorry, I'm not listening to you because you aren't addressing me properly". I pick him up, I wipe his tears, I hold him close and sympathize. When my 9 month old baby sticks his entire fist in his mouth and whines, I don't ignore him because he didn't address me properly with American Sign Language, I get him food and feed him because I know that to him, this is how he communicates hunger!
As far as the argument that it is somehow "rude", "demanding", or "telling God what to do" when a prayer is offered forcefully, all one has to do is skip down a few verses past the Lord's prayer to see that persistance in prayer is OK! In the two parables, Jesus tells of a neighbor waking his friend up in the middle of the night and of a woman seeking justice from a judge. In both cases, their petitions are answered not because of their correct formula, but because of their annoying persistance!
It has been amply shown in this thread that the Bible contains repetitious examples, so I won't go back over those.
Please don't isolate select Scripture because you will miss out on so much!
In regards to national Judgment and justice:
(running really short on time here!) Quite simply, if our nation does not repent for the murder of the innocent, God will bring Justice. This doesn't necessarily mean that the graveyards are going to start filling up, but it could mean a lot of other htings. It could mean economic collapse. It could mean defeat and occupation by another nation. It could mean severe natural disaster. And yes, it COULD even mean death, though I would side with the argument that uses the Passover as an example of this.
To say that believers will not be affected AT ALL by a national judgment is not true. Consider that when Israel was led into Babylonian captivity, there were still righteous among them in Daniel and his three friends. What you need to keep in mind is the promise that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him. This is true even when God is judging the nation that the person is a part of!
Also, I believe that God can use physical death as a judgment on believers as well as unbelievers. I am thinking of Ananias and Sapphira. Their lives were payment for the judgment that fell on them. It could be argued that they were not believers, but I think they were, as the context of the account is the saints being of one mind and selling their property and donating the money to the apostles. I seriously doubt an unbeliever would sell everything that defined them for something they didn't believe in. Also, I don't remember the scripture and don't have the time to look it up, but there is a passage in which John writes that there is a sin leading to death.
Keep in mind that even though our sins are forgiven, that we will still suffer the temporal consequence of that sin, proven by the point that EVERYONE WHO IS BORN DIES! I am forgiven of all my past, present, and future sins, but I will still die in this body should the Lord tarry! Or, consider a promiscuous fornicator. They sleep around and get AIDS, but then are born again and come to call Jesus Lord. Their promiscuity is forgiven, but they will still die of AIDS. God could, of course, heal them, but this is the exception, not the rule. The point is that God forgives and rescues us from eternal death, but we stil live and die in a fallen world and fallen body.
Out of time!
Love y'all!
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 1/8/2008 7:16:42 PM >
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/9/2008 11:28:00 AM
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mabel
Posts: 172
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Tell me: what is prayer? The answer isn't complicated: prayer is communicating with God! That is it! Prayer is not for God' sake, but for ours! He doesn't need a formula to hear us! As Stephanos also correctly pointed out, the Bible says that God already knows what we need and want before we ask. The point is the communication, the intimacy. Just as there are many ways for my children to communicate with me, there are many ways for me to communicate, or pray, to the Heavenly Father. When my son is sobbing in tears because the dog jumped on his head when the doorbell rang, I don't tell him, "Sorry, I'm not listening to you because you aren't addressing me properly". I pick him up, I wipe his tears, I hold him close and sympathize. When my 9 month old baby sticks his entire fist in his mouth and whines, I don't ignore him because he didn't address me properly with American Sign Language, I get him food and feed him because I know that to him, this is how he communicates hunger!
As far as the argument that it is somehow "rude", "demanding", or "telling God what to do" when a prayer is offered forcefully, all one has to do is skip down a few verses past the Lord's prayer to see that persistance in prayer is OK! In the two parables, Jesus tells of a neighbor waking his friend up in the middle of the night and of a woman seeking justice from a judge. In both cases, their petitions are answered not because of their correct formula, but because of their annoying persistance!
That's a great post! 
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/9/2008 11:35:35 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
time-consuming extracurricular vain repetitions and pep rallys
Wow, and this from someone who's never even been there, but formed his opinion from someone else's negative comments on the event. A very good example on how our words 'carry the power of life and death'. Sue mentioned about leaven in a different thread, but THIS is the true leaven that spoils the lump - negative, critical remarks that breed doubt, suspicion, fear and division in the church and they grow and grow and grow......and spread and spread and spread.
Yes, it's all _my_ fault.
I would have gladly admitted my lack of qualifications and the fact that several others posting here do a much better job than I do. I have no idea how I have earned this honor.
====wintery(true leaven 2008 winner)
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/9/2008 3:51:42 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The Lord's prayer is a model and a heart-check, not a formula. You can even know it is not a strict formula because Jesus teaches it differently in different Gospels! I would make the argument that a passionate cry of, "Life!" by 20,000 saints completely fulfills what Jesus was teaching us in the Lord's prayer.
I can tell you're a nice guy. Looking at the thirty-minute chant that you are attempting to defend however, is confusing. What was going on? Was it a political pep rally? Then why the prayer explanation? Was it a prayer? Then why the written vow or pledge that was linked to? Does that not boil down to tempting God with your voting preferences, because it is possible that the two electable candidates may neither express the pro-life view.
As to whether the single-word chant is an acceptable prayer, the manner which was described as delivering the prayer is not without its faults. What is your reason for believing, regardless of your view on this chant or prayer, and in light of the record and associations of these leaders, that this was a God-ordained meeting?
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
In regards to national Judgment and justice:
(running really short on time here!) Quite simply, if our nation does not repent for the murder of the innocent, God will bring Justice. This doesn't necessarily mean that the graveyards are going to start filling up, but it could mean a lot of other htings. It could mean economic collapse. It could mean defeat and occupation by another nation. It could mean severe natural disaster. And yes, it COULD even mean death, though I would side with the argument that uses the Passover as an example of this.
Russian has a limit of three abortions per person, so I've read, and China has some strict reproductive guidelines which has resulted in forced abortions. Why is the USA the focus? Why wouldn't all the time, effort and money be devoted to evangelism and the changing of the hearts of the people? Could it be it just sounds more important to talk about changing leaders?
Mike Bickle and Lou Engle are asserting that God is speaking, that they are hearing, and that they are giving us His words.
This is really simple. They are thereby inserting themselves in between you and God.
Unscriptural.
So these men have a series of meetings, religious meetings containing political instructions. Sorry, but I don't wear tape on my mouth and I don't chant for thirty minutes. It's like the old manager's test I read about somewhere: step one, make a paper hat; step two, put the paper hat on your head; step three, climb up to stand in a chair. If you did all the above, you failed the manager's test. A manager doesn't wear a paper hat or stand in a chair when he's told to.
I don't care what issue is at hand for the meetings, because I'm saying "whoa!" before the meeting starts. If that's not plain enough I'll paint it.
Say "Elroy and Len announce on behalf of God that Christians should meet and chant about saving drowning nuns and orphans". The Christians shout "float, float, float" for thirty minutes. But who are Elroy and Len and their associates, past and present, their track record, a simple background check, the consistency of their beliefs and statements? The discerning Christian should find out. Don't put the responsibility on God or your friends to decide for you.
Once again, it is not enough to go to a big meeting and participate in group activities and think that it's a palatable dish. Were you dining on the dominionist menu?
Some Christians go to football or basketball games, wasting time and money and idolizing men. They're customers, not managers.
Worst of all, if God did not speak to these men, then their customers missed it as well. It's like Christians deciding to have concerts every year--would they cancel if they really sought God and became convicted that the money should go to missionaries? Is it okay to decide to have the concert anyway because you are sure that "some good" will come from it?
This is eating your cake and having it too.
Submitting to these fellows on this issue is accepting the whole package. Speaking of judgment:
Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
(Jeremiah 5:29)
A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
(Jeremiah 5:30)
The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
(Jeremiah 5:31)
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/10/2008 6:39:18 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 168
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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You're laying it on really thick, Adam. If you believe people should judge according to outward appearances because outward appearances are always trustworthy [at least in IHOP's case], well, good luck with that because that's not the reality that Christ taught us. Christ taught us to dig deeper and examine all things through scripture. I'm not laying anything on thick. I'm saying that sometimes what is happening on the outside is the manifestation of what is going on the inside. Remember, Man looks on the outside, but God looks at the heart. There is a difference between digging deeper to find something sinister underneath what looks good, and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by ignoring genuine fruit because of a minor difference.quote:
The authority of the Bible is very much in question when any group promotes and supports false prophesy and false prophets along with other unBiblical practices and beliefs. By doing this, IHOP has rejected clear scripture and the authority of scripture to set the standard for them. Instead, IHOP is running ahead according to their own 'wisdom' and the word of their 'prophets'. So the true heart of your argument comes out... Because we disagree with your reading of a few passages, we must be attacking the authority of the Bible. I'm sorry, but I don't place as much weight on your words as I do on the Bible. That is why I feel free to disagree with your understanding of a passage... not because I don't believe the passage, but because I don't believe your application of the passage.quote:
We have hit one of the main cruxes in this entire discussion with the above statement. When a group starts to do that, their end is not a nice one. What end? We are currently in the process of growing... including opening a second prayer room that will be starting 24/7 prayer next week. The only end IHOP-KC is going to have is when Jesus returns and we are all praying and worshipping Him in the New Jerusalem. Or was that supposed to be prophetic?quote:
It is wrong to reject Scripture and the authority of Scripture for fallible men. Which we have not done. You THINK we have done it because I continue to disagree... but you are highly incorrect on that point.quote:
It is a secondary issue, something we can disagree on but not have to divide over.
And the application of Prophecy isss.......... primary? Can you lose your salvation over it? Since I have not questioned the authority of scripture, that is off the table. Rather, I have questioned the USE of the authority of Scripture in certain arguments. I find that the definition of "secondary issues" fluctuates depending on what the subject is.quote:
First off I just want to apologize if I have ever made it sound like I believe you or anyone else at IHOP are grossly unchristian or any thing like that. I do believe that you all are Christ following fellow believers, despite our differences. I have tried to watch my words to make sure that I dont go down the road of calling you or anyone else heretics or anything close to that, and seeing as our discussion on this past topic has seemed to get a little heated, I just want to make sure that you know that. Agreed, you have shown restraint, and I do appreciate your candor and your honesty.quote:
As for the topic at hand I feel it is best if I pulled out of this discussion. I still have great concerns on what you support and what was taught by Lou Engel, but you have brought up some points that, to be honest, I dont have an answer to. I have to do some more personal study and go further in depth into hamartiology and soteriology to find my own answers before I continue to speak on the issue here. I have always tried to have the attitude of fighting for what I believe, until such a time where someone challenges me to the point where I have to review what I believe. And I have to do that now. Once again, I appreciate your honesty and humility. It would seem that we have quite similar policies in this area. If somebody stumps me, I'm going to go take a second look at what I'm arguing. And when it comes down to it, none of us have all the answers... all I'm really asking for is for people to make some honest considerations.quote:
I would love to develop this post further, but I have 2 chapters of Philosophy to wade through and a debate question to answer, so I can't take long here.
+4, ManimalX for takng the words out of my mouth... and restating my point in a clearer way... The other one that I was thinking of as far as prayer... the song of the Four Living Creatures. "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty!" They show up in a couple of the Prophets and in the Book of Revelation. In all instances they are singing the same song. And they have been around the throne for eternity. That's a heck of a lot of repetition. But anyway, good post, ManimalX.quote:
What was going on? Was it a political pep rally? Then why the prayer explanation? Was it a prayer? Then why the written vow or pledge that was linked to? Does that not boil down to tempting God with your voting preferences, because it is possible that the two electable candidates may neither express the pro-life view. (A) Yes, it was prayer. (B) No, it was not a political pep-rally. (C) The Life Pledge is a tool to help people take their faith into the public realm. What is the Life Pledge? "Pray for the ending of abortion. Live in radical holiness. Vote 'pro-life'." That is the "Life Pledge". Consider it like signing up for an election as a Republican... essentially you are taking a pledge saying that you will fight for lower taxes, limited goverment and a strong national defense. As for your hypothetical situation, let us pray that never happens. If it does, then I will not vote for either candidate... simply because my conscience will not allow me to knowingly vote for a "pro-choice" candidate.quote:
What is your reason for believing that this was a God-ordained meeting? At this point, the burden of proof that it wasn't is on you, my friend. We hosted a 12 hour prayer meeting that involved the repenting of sin, the edification of the spirits of men, and intercession for mercy. If there is a Biblical problem with that, I'm truly blind. Would you tell the recently saved that they didn't repent correctly and thus are still in their sin?quote:
Russian has a limit of three abortions per person, so I've read, and China has some strict reproductive guidelines which has resulted in forced abortions. Why is the USA the focus? Why wouldn't all the time, effort and money be devoted to evangelism and the changing of the hearts of the people? Could it be it just sounds more important to talk about changing leaders? (A) America is the focus because it is our country... and as such anything that happens in judgement of this sin will definitely affect us in some way. (B) Prayer does change hearts of the people... by prayer, God releases revelation to the people who are considering abortions. (C) Once again, as long as legal protection remains for abortion, it is a tacit endorsement by the government. By removing the legal protections, we place the sin on the head of the individual, and not the government. This is not an actual discussion about the merits of being "pro-life", rather, this is actually questioning the power of prayer. By Prayer, all things are possible. That isn't just a nice cliche, that is the absolute truth. As he was dying, William Tyndale cried out "O Lord, open the King of England's eyes!" It wasn't pretty, it was a shouted prayer while he was being burned at the stake. Less than one hundred years later, King James the 1st commissions the translating of the Bible into English. The poetic irony is that one of the main referrences for the translation... was the journals of William Tyndale. God answered Tyndale's prayer, and vindicated his death in that much of his work was used in the KJV Bible. Can prayer shift the course of history? Can prayer actually affect the real world? Absolutely. By prayer, Elijah stopped the rain for 3 1/2 years... then brought the rain back by prayer. By prayer, Job's three friends were saved from utter ruin for not speaking correctly of God. This is the power of prayer.quote:
Mike Bickle and Lou Engle are asserting that God is speaking, that they are hearing, and that they are giving us His words.
This is really simple. They are thereby inserting themselves in between you and God.
Unscriptural. They are not inserting themseves between anyone and God. That is either a misunderstanding or just a gross exageration. Were the OT prophets placing themselves between Israel and God when they delivered the Word of the Lord? Was Joseph placing himself between God and Pharoah by interpreting Pharoah's dreams? Really, this is the weakest argument you could possibly give. Inserting yourself between God and someone else would involve claiming that you could ONLY hear the word of God by coming to them, and that you need to have them pray to God for you because you are so lowly. This is the exact antithesis of Mike's overarching message. Is the messenger insterting himself between two kings when he delivers a message from one to the other, or is he just following orders? Is the voice mail machine placing itself between you and your buddy? The answer is a quite obvious no.quote:
So these men have a series of meetings, religious meetings containing political instructions. Sorry, but I don't wear tape on my mouth and I don't chant for thirty minutes. It's like the old manager's test I read about somewhere: step one, make a paper hat; step two, put the paper hat on your head; step three, climb up to stand in a chair. If you did all the above, you failed the manager's test. A manager doesn't wear a paper hat or stand in a chair when he's told to.
I don't care what issue is at hand for the meetings, because I'm saying "whoa!" before the meeting starts. If that's not plain enough I'll paint it.
Say "Elroy and Len announce on behalf of God that Christians should meet and chant about saving drowning nuns and orphans". The Christians shout "float, float, float" for thirty minutes. But who are Elroy and Len and their associates, past and present, their track record, a simple background check, the consistency of their beliefs and statements? The discerning Christian should find out. Don't put the responsibility on God or your friends to decide for you.
Once again, it is not enough to go to a big meeting and participate in group activities and think that it's a palatable dish. Were you dining on the dominionist menu?
Some Christians go to football or basketball games, wasting time and money and idolizing men. They're customers, not managers. I'm remembering another Business analogy... "a snake with two heads will inevitably rip itself apart". Not everyone is a manager. Fine, you don't wear tape on your mouth or sing a prayer over and over... so why seek to destory the people that do? Because you disagree with them? Because you dislike them on a personal level? Once again, the proof is really on you to prove that we are in gross error that will result in the loss of salvation. The "political instruction" was basically common sense... vote for righteousness. They have never endorsed a political party, they have merely said to vote for righteousness. The "Life Pledge" is completely voluntary, and not everyone that attends a "Call" event buys into the Life Pledge. Once again, the implication that you are making is that everyone who attended and had a positive opinion of The Call is merely following Mike Bickle down a dark road to get mugged, without even hint of consideration that there might quite possibly some truth to the idea of praying and repenting for national sin. Now, I personally do not like having people making derrogatory statements about my mental capacity, or capacity for discernment. But if you feel comfortable making those statements, just know that it completely destroys your credibility as a "debater" with your opponenets. I have never commented on anyone's mental capacities, just that there are commonly held misconceptions about the topic. The main difference being that one is based on faulty information (misconceptions) and the other is just refusing to think (mental capacity). I won't comment on athletic's events because (A) as an athlete I enjoy them, and (B) there is nothing inherently sinful in it.
Oh, and for what it's worth, nobody has showed that we are "dining off the dominionist menu". If you are attempting to allude to the "Manifest Sons of God" doctrine, you are way off base. IHOP specifically denies that brand of theology, and there is good reason for it as well.quote:
Submitting to these fellows on this issue is accepting the whole package. Actually not. Unless by submission you mean "a complete forfeiture of all decision making/thinking capabilities", then yes... but that is far from what submission means. Can someone be wrong about one subject and be correct about another one? Absolutely. Some people are horrible spellers but have three Mathmatics degrees. It's the same with doctrine... Some people have their escatology down amazingly well, but can't discuss worship worth anything. Some people can give an amazing discourse on the Levitical Law, but don't have anything right about spiritual gifts. It is this that makes me say that being under someone does not mean you approve/agree with everything they do. To say it does is a large misnomer.quote:
Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
(Jeremiah 5:29)
A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
(Jeremiah 5:30)
The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
(Jeremiah 5:31) ........................ And your point was? The prophets were prophesying blessing, prosperity, and safety, when the actual word of Lord through the actual Prophet was "repent, judgement is near." So now you have guys like Kim Clement prophesying blessing, peace, and safety... while Mike Bickle and Lou Engle are sharing dreams that they have had that indicate a soon coming judgement on sin. So, based on your own example, who is more likely to be right?
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/10/2008 10:59:39 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2564
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
If it does, then I will not vote for either candidate... simply because my conscience will not allow me to knowingly vote for a "pro-choice" candidate.
This is the same thing James Dobson has said and followed through on for... what, 20+ years? He declared in front of 400,000+ people in Washington that he would never cast one vote for any candidate who would support the destruction of even one baby. This is also the position of almost all of my close acquaintances with whom I talk politics on a regular basis. We will not vote for any candidate from any party if they are for abortion.
What this means is this: The Democrats will win the Presidency if the Republicans don't put up a strong pro-life candidate. The two strongest pro-life candidates are Mike Huckabee and Fred Thompson. If anyone other than these two get the nomination, I predict there will be a huge Christian base that will either not vote or vote for a third party candidate.
Why is it important to get a pro-life, non-Democrat into the Whitehouse? Because there is an expectation and possibility of 2-3 Supreme Court positions coming open during the next Presidential term. The Supreme Court is where soon abortion will be broken or uplifted, and we need pro-life judges on the bench when it comes time.
So, in conclusion, when the leaders at The Call, OneThing, IHOP-KC, Bound4Life, or any other, begin praying for things in the political realm, it because they are all highly dedicated to ending abortion. In the heart of the Christian, there is no separation of church and state.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/10/2008 5:14:56 PM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2505
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
+4, ManimalX for takng the words out of my mouth... and restating my point in a clearer way... The other one that I was thinking of as far as prayer... the song of the Four Living Creatures. "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty!" They show up in a couple of the Prophets and in the Book of Revelation. In all instances they are singing the same song. And they have been around the throne for eternity. That's a heck of a lot of repetition.
One of the commentaries I read on Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
...said that one possible meaning was the way in which angels worship. I don't know that we are made in such a way as to be able to duplicate this worship or that we are actually commanded to. Not that I buy into that meaning, but it's interesting to see it in this context.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Consider it like signing up for an election as a Republican... essentially you are taking a pledge saying that you will fight for lower taxes, limited goverment and a strong national defense.
There's more to it than that. Please explain how you can ask for the blood of Jesus to cover our national sins. Personal sins brought to God through Jesus Christ, yes. Yet this is in the pledge and we turn around and are told judgment is prophesied. This sounds very confused.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
As for your hypothetical situation, let us pray that never happens. If it does, then I will not vote for either candidate... simply because my conscience will not allow me to knowingly vote for a "pro-choice" candidate.
I commend your conscience, but I wouldn't teach taking a vow (with no apologies to Robert "Bobby T." Tilton). Hypothetically I don't know _what_ choices there may be to vote for, so in the future it could be a matter of asking God to forgive the vow/pledge, or not voting, as God guides.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
At this point, the burden of proof that it wasn't is on you, my friend.
Thanks, I believe I am your friend. But the reason to ask the question is to explore the thinking behind believing these meetings are of God. I tend toward "not" because I would have to accept that these guys are prophetically gifted and that there would be a valid reason for God to call such a series of meetings and that these would be the messengers. But why am I basically giving the answer for you?
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
We hosted a 12 hour prayer meeting that involved the repenting of sin, the edification of the spirits of men, and intercession for mercy. If there is a Biblical problem with that, I'm truly blind.
And dramatic. What I see is Christians that are already against abortion meeting under the guidance of Bickle and Engle who think they are prophets or gifted and are leading people in some prophetic way. That's a different idea than what's being presented here. To me the end result is Engle being accepted as a prophet and Bickle finding increased acceptance. That's why I say the good Christian kids are buying the whole package. You always discount the Bickle track record and seem to indicate that you're not 100 percent endorsing him. Yet the defenses here seem sometimes like an old tobacco p.r. guy "there's no proof it's harmful, it's a personal choice, even if it's a harmful personal choice you can't say anything about it". So there's no discussion. How about "I enjoy sitting with one Scripture verse all night to see if I get a supernatural revelation, etc." I've downloaded several of IHOP's .pdf files, so I could discuss the prayer room, "meditation", etc., but no one talks about that.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
(A) America is the focus because it is our country... and as such anything that happens in judgement of this sin will definitely affect us in some way. (B) Prayer does change hearts of the people... by prayer, God releases revelation to the people who are considering abortions. (C) Once again, as long as legal protection remains for abortion, it is a tacit endorsement by the government. By removing the legal protections, we place the sin on the head of the individual, and not the government. This is not an actual discussion about the merits of being "pro-life", rather, this is actually questioning the power of prayer.
And what kinds of prayer are effective and appropriate should be up for discussion. What's up with point B? Praying that people won't have abortions? If they get saved they are far less likely to.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Were the OT prophets placing themselves between Israel and God when they delivered the Word of the Lord?
Engle and Bickle are OT prophets? Or KC prophets?
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Really, this is the weakest argument you could possibly give.
Yes, my failure to accept these prophets shows weakness.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Is the messenger insterting himself between two kings when he delivers a message from one to the other, or is he just following orders?
A minute ago they were OT prophets. Now they're demoted to messengers. Next you'll be calling them voice mail machines.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Is the voice mail machine placing itself between you and your buddy?
Yes it is, Fur, and I don't like that either.
If these guys are so unimportant, it's out of line for them to call these meetings then--but they don't say that, they say they're bringing a prophetic word and there's no dodge around it.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I'm remembering another Business analogy... "a snake with two heads will inevitably rip itself apart".
This is a good one. I remember when I "belonged" to that prophetic NT church which boasted of its Scriptural multiple elders, the only way to run a church Biblically. Across town at another similar church, but which maintained a single pastor in authority aided by an assistant pastor, the assistant pastor aimed his message their way by saying that anything with more than one head was "a freak". Poor Christians that allow such (meaning all of the "prophetic" and "Scriptural" men who obviously coudn't hear from God at both churches) to be their leaders. That story is kind of an aside but it shows that thinking for yourself --and listening for His voice for yourself-- is better than to put a whole lot into those who claim to hear God for you.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Not everyone is a manager. Fine, you don't wear tape on your mouth or sing a prayer over and over... so why seek to destory the people that do?
Hay now...as in "straw", man.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Now, I personally do not like having people making derrogatory statements about my mental capacity, or capacity for discernment.
I've been reading you for months and I still don't know how you come up with this stuff. I thought at first you were just trying to muddy the waters by painting this onto my posts, but I'm starting to think you really believe I'm doing this. You can't have a discussion without an opposing view. That's all there is to it--I think Bickle's brand is to be avoided. That's not an insult to you. ????
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I won't comment on athletic's events because (A) as an athlete I enjoy them, and (B) there is nothing inherently sinful in it.
That actually was intended as an analogy, while the statement is true within itself. Some Christians indeed and to varying degrees do make idols of sports figures in stadium atmospheres. Remember, I'm in Alabama where UA-Tuscaloosa football is an issue year-round, magnetic car stickers a foot high and window flags waving. In light of the meetings we are discussing it may also be relevant.
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ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Oh, and for what it's worth, nobody has showed that we are "dining off the dominionist menu".
No one has shown it, but are you? After all, Bickle is pals with Joyner and there's the whole city-church concept which necessitates getting everybody on the same page and ready to accept an "apostle" over the area. But maybe not, maybe this meeting was just about Engle and Bickle.
quote:
The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
(Jeremiah 5:31)
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin ........................ And your point was? The prophets were prophesying blessing, prosperity, and safety, when the actual word of Lord through the actual Prophet was "repent, judgement is near." So now you have guys like Kim Clement prophesying blessing, peace, and safety... while Mike Bickle and Lou Engle are sharing dreams that they have had that indicate a soon coming judgement on sin. So, based on your own example, who is more likely to be right?
I meant to tell you I'm in total agreement about the proven false wacko Kim Clement. You couldn't reel him in with a space shuttle. But if you had one, you wouldn't see Bob Jones footprints on the moon, or Mike Bickle speeding by to Heaven.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/10/2008 9:51:58 PM
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stimulus
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The anti-Bickle crowd has passed judgment and will stubbornly not change their mind, even when presented with overwhelming reasoning and biblical arguments against their objections.
I've been reading along, but I quit responding since it didn't seem to be going anywhere. But the above statement is just absurd. You've presented overwhelming reasoning and biblical arguments addressing my objections to:
- the land being cleansed by the shedding of human blood?
- the excessive repetition of prayers in the belief that God will act because of the repetition or length of time spend in prayer?
Don't get me wrong - you've presented lengthy arguments to try and address my objections. But overwheleming reasoning and biblical arguments?
"He didn't mean it that way", "you mistunderstood", and "the angels repeat themselves" are far from overwhelming!
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/10/2008 10:14:15 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1400
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stimulus
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The anti-Bickle crowd has passed judgment and will stubbornly not change their mind, even when presented with overwhelming reasoning and biblical arguments against their objections.
I've been reading along, but I quit responding since it didn't seem to be going anywhere. But the above statement is just absurd. You've presented overwhelming reasoning and biblical arguments addressing my objections to:
- the land being cleansed by the shedding of human blood?
- the excessive repetition of prayers in the belief that God will act because of the repetition or length of time spend in prayer?
Don't get me wrong - you've presented lengthy arguments to try and address my objections. But overwheleming reasoning and biblical arguments?
"He didn't mean it that way", "you mistunderstood", and "the angels repeat themselves" are far from overwhelming!
Also, when ManimalX first posted in this thread he addressed FurGod as follows:
quote:
I have reservations concerning some of IHOP's doctrine, and your defense of them is sometimes logically lacking.
I asked him a while back to please tell us what those reservations were and he never answered. I'd just like to ask him once more...What reservations do you have about IHop's doctrine and how was FurGod's defense of them logically lacking? Allow me to say, by you posts you wouldn't have known you disagreed with anything IHop teaches.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/10/2008 11:11:53 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2564
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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Hi, Kat, thanks for posting again.
I am sorry I didn't reply to your question. You won't like my answer, but here it is:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Also, when ManimalX first posted in this thread he addressed FurGod as follows:
quote:
I have reservations concerning some of IHOP's doctrine, and your defense of them is sometimes logically lacking.
I sent a PM several days ago to Adam retracting the comment about his logic. I do so publicly now. He has done a fine job here, and I spoke in haste.
quote:
I asked him a while back to please tell us what those reservations were and he never answered. I'd just like to ask him once more...What reservations do you have about IHop's doctrine and how was FurGod's defense of them logically lacking? Allow me to say, by you posts you wouldn't have known you disagreed with anything IHop teaches.
My feathers just don't get ruffled by minor disagreements like they used to when I was younger and thought I had to be right about everything. As I have just started two rather mentally demanding Philosophy classes, I don't have the time to devote to those minor disagreements with IHOP. They are quality Christians who love the real Jesus and bear a lot of good fruit. I admire the young adults who have attended and devoted a time of their life to praying, fasting, and worshiping.
I recently made the following comment on one of my university discussion boards:
quote:
The thing is, you have to know which battles to fight. The deity of Jesus, the death and resurrection of Jesus and His work on the cross, the veracity of Scripture, the essentials to salvation... those are all hills I will fight and die on. Speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy, worship styles, non-essentials to salvation... I'd rather send in the diplomats than the cavalry.
Maybe if I get an itch someday I will follow up to your question, Kat. But I refuse to make mountains out of molehills like many here have done.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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