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RE: Youth Leader - 12/3/2007 8:21:10 PM
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Hayseed
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Well, I'm not going confront a new believer in the same way I'd confront someone who has been a believer for a while. There are different levels of accountability.
I think we're probably talking about a straw man here because of the lack of definition in the OP.
Scenario: If my kids went to a youth group and the leader was a 25 year old bombshell that wore revealing halter tops and spandex workout tights (this is just a scenario I'm coming up with) to the youth group meetings: I'd have a problem with that. Yes, I'd have a talk with the leader about it, but I'd have to wonder how anyone that supposedly was in a position to be called a "leader" would have to be reminded of things like that.
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My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 11:07:57 AM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
Well, I'm not going confront a new believer in the same way I'd confront someone who has been a believer for a while. There are different levels of accountability.
That's fair.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
Scenario: If my kids went to a youth group and the leader was a 25 year old bombshell that wore revealing halter tops and spandex workout tights (this is just a scenario I'm coming up with) to the youth group meetings: I'd have a problem with that. Yes, I'd have a talk with the leader about it, but I'd have to wonder how anyone that supposedly was in a position to be called a "leader" would have to be reminded of things like that.
I see what you're saying and I get it. I have just known a lot of people over the years who volunteer in youth ministry and need to be reminded of things once in a while. It doesn't make them a bad person or spiritually immature - if anything it makes them human.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 11:09:35 AM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
When our old church gave an elder whose young children were in public school responsibility for Sunday School, we yanked them out. I respectfully told the pastor, in a private meeting, that it was my obligation to follow our leaders as I saw them following Christ. When I saw a man who refused to follow Christ in one specific area trying to lead others in that area, I could not, in good conscience, support that project. The kids sat with us for the whole service.
I don't understand...how was the elder refusing to follow Christ in this area?
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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[Deleted] - 12/4/2007 11:15:17 AM
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 11:44:35 AM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deadhead
There is a big difference between a volunteer who would need to be pulled aside and given a nudge to apropriate atire and an actual leader who has met the qualifications given in pastoral epistles.
Oh, right. I forgot that the qualifications given included which clothes are appropriate to wear and which are not.
How is this any different from legalism? Judging the state of someone else's spiritual life based on the [potentially] inappropriate (which is, itself, a loaded word as what one person will find inappropriate, another may not and it could just come down to one's culture/upbringing) clothes they wear?
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 12:35:09 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
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Yes. He's a man.
But how is a halter and mini skirt different from the boob tubes and strapless tops the other women wear to worship?
If we are going to live out grace, we need to stop making man-made (or woman-made) rules and preach the gospel to everybody. There is enough law already given by God to draw everyone to repentance. We do not need a dress code.
Whatever dress code you come up with would be only cultural and could not apply around the world to all Christians. If it cannot apply to all Christians, it is invalid. There are some places where women are topless, others where they are completely covered. And there is one tribe of North Africans where the women must cover their hair, but remain topless. Throughout history, styles have changed. We cannot continue to try to recreate styles acceptable to Queen Victoria and claim that this is what the Lord wants from us.
It's time to focus on what the Lord really wants, a people who love Him more than they love themselves; a people who are ruled by the Lord, not by society-imposed guilt.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 1:08:27 PM
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Hayseed
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No.
But let's look at the "scantily clad" thing: would you want your boys ogling the youth group leader? Would you want your daughters to think it's okay to dress that way? We need to be extremely careful of what we put in front of kids because they're not mature enough to handle things like adults.
I know that most churches hire the guy out of college on the "first rung of his ministry career" as the youth group leaders, and that's the sad thing: We should have the best minister for our kids because that's where we lose them out of the church!
We're talking about level of maturity that a leader should possess to even be qualified as a leader in the first place.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 1:31:20 PM
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gonzoguy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
No.
But let's look at the "scantily clad" thing: would you want your boys ogling the youth group leader? Would you want your daughters to think it's okay to dress that way?
I would expect that this would be something monitored by the parents and not by the church. Suppose this girl were actively involved in community service, donated regularly to charities, and had a thriving relationship with God and others. Should we still dismiss her or question her spirituality because of her clothing?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
We need to be extremely careful of what we put in front of kids because they're not mature enough to handle things like adults.
Well, first, you are assuming an awful lot about kids which may or may not be true. Second, what I've heard espoused so far (judging someone else's spiritual maturity level based on her clothing) doesn't sound like handling it like an adult.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
I know that most churches hire the guy out of college on the "first rung of his ministry career" as the youth group leaders, and that's the sad thing: We should have the best minister for our kids because that's where we lose them out of the church!
Well you've jumped to several conclusions here. I'll list them for you:
1. Youth ministry is the "first rung" of a career for recent college grads.
2. This is sad.
3. A recent college grad cannot be the "best minister for kids"
4. Kids are lost out of church because of the problems with youth leaders or youth groups.
Now I'll address all of your jumped-to conclusions:
1. For many who go into youth ministry, they plan on being in youth ministry long-term. Some may see it as a "first rung"; however, this is not an inherently bad thing, either. Everyone needs to start somewhere and if not in youth ministry, then where? I don't suppose you'd like a recent college grad to be the senior pastor. Or the mens/womens pastor - after all, if they are right out of college they don't have much experience in that area. How about a children's pastor? No, I think you'd want someone who has a lot of experience. Lets see...worship pastor? No, college grads just play their contemporary music all loud - they don't really know what worship is.
So, then, where would someone ever start?
2. Whats sad is that you've jumped to conclusions on what a recent college grad is capable of.
3. A recent college grad can be as good a candidate for kids as the next guy if not better simply because of age. Most youth pastors are young because kids don't tend to trust people who are a lot older than them. They seem as just another mom or dad who is trying to tell them what to do and what is right. Further, a recent college grad is closer to the mindset of a kid than a 50 year old guy would be (as a general rule of thumb) simply because the 23 year old youth pastor is more likely to engage in the same/similar activities as the kids whereas the older person will not. And not only will the older person not engage, but they won't understand either. This is, for example, one of the many reasons most adults think video games are bad. They simply don't understand. They didn't grow up with it and they don't understand it, so they demonize it. A recent college grad, on the other hand, does understand because they've been there. Further, because the college grad is closer to the kids in the way he understands things and because the kids trust him, he has more ability to speak truth into the lives of young people.
4. I would suggest that kids are "lost" out of youth groups not because of some flaw with the leader or the group itself, necessarily, but because as they get older and come to the age where they should be integrating into the larger congregation, they feel a profound sense of disconnect. Adults don't do it the same way as kids and adults don't want to. Further, as I already demonstrated, adults chastise the kids for stuff that doesn't really matter (i.e. video games). So, as a result, most kids think it would just be easier to leave than to try to live up to mom and dad's religion (I use this word with intent). Rebellion also plays a key role in this as does one's relationship with their parents...
Now, could the youth group/leader help with that? Sure! But its not on their back entirely.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
We're talking about level of maturity that a leader should possess to even be qualified as a leader in the first place.
Right. And you seem not only to have an idea of what level of maturity that actually is (as if there were some sort of measuring tool that qualified individuals for ministry), but you also have an idea of what it does and does not look like - which, as has been pointed out, is simply another, more modernized form, of legalism since you are content to pass judgment an another person based on looks alone.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 2:23:34 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1668
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quote:
I would expect that this would be something monitored by the parents and not by the church. Suppose this girl were actively involved in community service, donated regularly to charities, and had a thriving relationship with God and others. Should we still dismiss her or question her spirituality because of her clothing?
If this girl/woman is a youth leader, she represents the church, paid or not. So what if she is involved in good works in the community. If she is being identified under the title of a youth leader, the church has a responsibility to monitor.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 2:27:45 PM
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gonzoguy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
I would expect that this would be something monitored by the parents and not by the church. Suppose this girl were actively involved in community service, donated regularly to charities, and had a thriving relationship with God and others. Should we still dismiss her or question her spirituality because of her clothing?
If this girl/woman is a youth leader, she represents the church, paid or not. So what if she is involved in good works in the community. If she is being identified under the title of a youth leader, the church has a responsibility to monitor.
Really? Do you think that the church should be monitoring clothing? Is THAT what the church should be about?
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 2:42:42 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4231
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gonzoguy
quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
When our old church gave an elder whose young children were in public school responsibility for Sunday School, we yanked them out. I respectfully told the pastor, in a private meeting, that it was my obligation to follow our leaders as I saw them following Christ. When I saw a man who refused to follow Christ in one specific area trying to lead others in that area, I could not, in good conscience, support that project. The kids sat with us for the whole service.
I don't understand...how was the elder refusing to follow Christ in this area?
I didn't get that post either.
For the purposes of this discussion, "halter top" and "mini skirt" are subjective. I have a skirt that hits about two inches above my knee. My mother calls it a mini skirt, which it clearly isn't. And at least one of those halter tops that Miasma linked to I wouldn't bat an eyelash at if I saw it in church. Also, the activity dictates clothing for me. An outfit that might not be appropriate for Sunday service might be entirely appropriate for a cookout. AND, halter top and mini skirt does not equal "skanky" to me either.
If the church wants to have a dress code for its leaders, so be it. Lots of businesses do and that's no big deal. If the church doesn't have a dress code, then the need for one should be brought up to the pastor or elders. It's not up to a parent or any other member to decide they don't like something and bring it to the attention of the person wearing the offending clothing. That would be like a customer coming up to me and telling me I need to wear something different to work.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 2:47:31 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
We're not talking about "grace" or not here; we're talking about the level of maturity of the people we choose to be leaders. Especially the leaders of our children.
Would like to see someone who just got saved off the streets become the pastor? Why not? Sure he doesn't understand that urinating behind the church isn't acceptable but who are you to judge his level of spiritual maturity? Have a little grace for the brother and let him pastor if he wants to.  
I saw nothing in the OP about maturity of the leader. We certainly are talking about grace. There is no way to discuss this topic Biblically except in the arena of grace, because the Bible does not lay down any dress code for us.
I like Gonzo's application:
quote:
Suppose one of the leaders in the youth group were to wear what some might call "gangster" clothing. Baggy pants, dew rags, corn rows, chains - the whole nine yards. Do you think it would be appropriate to judge where this individual was spiritually based on his clothing?
Suppose she came to church wearing an Afghani burka? There are many styles of clothing that are far more modest than what most women wear to church, but which are considered inappropriate by our dress codes. Let's remember that if it is not of faith, it is sin. I find very little faith, and a lot of fashion, in our dress codes.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 2:50:33 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
Really? Do you think that the church should be monitoring clothing? Is THAT what the church should be about?
No, THAT is not what the church is about. However, if someone is representing the church at a function where other members of the community are involved, then the church leadership has a say in what a person wears. Would you want someone on your church staff wersin a T-shirt with innappropriate language on it? Would you react different if your church secretary/admin assistant came to work in tube top?
I know that our yough pastor has had to instruct some volunteer youth leaders to dress appropriately. At the same time, he has also had to instruct some students about appropriate dress. We also have a Bible camp near us and my wife worked there for two summers. One summer there was a problem with many of the younger female staff wearing bikini tops and low cut spagetti strap shirts around camp. When the older women approached the younger women about this, they were met with resistance. My wife repeated to them what I said. "I see more cleavage at camp than I do at home." Perhaps that grossed them out because they changed their style of dress.
While fashion does not communicate our spirituality, it does ommunicate much about who we are. Many times under the guise of fashion, women wear things that send the wrong message to men (and other women). Hence, all the scriptural warnings to dress modestly.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 3:11:50 PM
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wunderschon
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This thread leads me to wonder-just when do those Scriptures about modesty apply, since they don't apply to new believers, or leaders, or people in the pews, etc? Who were they directed towards, then?
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For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 3:26:44 PM
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gonzoguy
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The issue here is not whether modesty has a place - it obviously does. The issue is that some here think that by looking at another's clothing, they can accurately determine whether or not that person is spiritually mature and whether they should be in a position of leadership - which, as I've tried to demonstrate, is not a judgment we should be making.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 3:39:49 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1668
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gonzoguy
The issue here is not whether modesty has a place - it obviously does. The issue is that some here think that by looking at another's clothing, they can accurately determine whether or not that person is spiritually mature and whether they should be in a position of leadership - which, as I've tried to demonstrate, is not a judgment we should be making.
I understand what you are saying. Clothing cannot be an accurate picture of a person's spiritual maturity. Yet, what we wear conveys a lot about who we are to others. Tube tops, to the best of my knowledge, are not allowed to be worn by girls in public high schools. Why should we allow our youth workers to wear them at a youth event?
We can sit here and Monday morning quarterback youth worker fashion until Christ returns. We'll never know where someones spiritual maturity is until we spend time with them and get to know them as an individual. In the mean time, all we have are initial impressions. I know that, as a parent, I would be rather uncomfortable showing up to my kids youth group seeing a female leader wearing a shirt that she could come out of with a slight tug. It's simply not appropriate. As for making a judgment about a person based on initial impressions, we all do it all the time. As human beings, we'll never get past this flaw in our humanity. The only thing we can do is to make an effort to get to know the person.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 3:44:12 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 571
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We've gone way beyond the OP concern: sexually suggestive clothing or clothing that might attract the wrong kind of attention. Whether the OP is being overly prudish in the description or not we have to take their word for it. If it's a true "non-issue" then that is another matter.
However, the scriptures do lay down a foundation for modesty. Of course, cultural differences play a large part in what's modest or not. Mature believers should understand certain things without having to be told. And leaders should be selected from the mature believer group by pastors. If the church ain't supposed to monitor who they have in leadership, well, I reckon that there really is no use for a church then.
If, on the other hand, we are talking about a volunteer helper here then it is a great teaching moment for the leader to help someone grow in their maturity.
You can judge a persons maturity level on how well they understand and follow scripture in their daily lives. That's not being judgmental, that's just being wise.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 3:51:28 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 103
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
I understand what you are saying. Clothing cannot be an accurate picture of a person's spiritual maturity. Yet, what we wear conveys a lot about who we are to others.
Agreed, to a certain extent. I think we should still be careful here, though.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Tube tops, to the best of my knowledge, are not allowed to be worn by girls in public high schools. Why should we allow our youth workers to wear them at a youth event?
Well, two things:
1. The OP wasn't concerning a tube top, but a halter top. The two can be radically different depending on the specific cut.
2. The youth may or may not see these particular fashions as provocative or sexy. And if thats the case, then its not really an issue - except for parents.
Thats the point that many of us are tying to make. Modesty isn't a hard and fast rule. It varies.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
We can sit here and Monday morning quarterback youth worker fashion until Christ returns. We'll never know where someones spiritual maturity is until we spend time with them and get to know them as an individual. In the mean time, all we have are initial impressions. I know that, as a parent, I would be rather uncomfortable showing up to my kids youth group seeing a female leader wearing a shirt that she could come out of with a slight tug. It's simply not appropriate. As for making a judgment about a person based on initial impressions, we all do it all the time. As human beings, we'll never get past this flaw in our humanity. The only thing we can do is to make an effort to get to know the person.
Which is all I'm asking for.
_____________________________
Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 4:01:04 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
2. The youth may or may not see these particular fashions as provocative or sexy. And if thats the case, then its not really an issue - except for parents.
Having been a youth once and now being the parent of two teens and active with our youth group, I know that much of today's fashion is seen as sexy/provocative. I am very active with my kids. In monitoring their online accounts, I know what their friends are saying to them and others about all kinds of issues. If we are to be salt and light, to influence our culture rather than be influenced, then it is an issue.
Aside from that, I think we agree on the issue. I jsut get the sense that I must be much older.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 4:29:19 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 103
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
You can judge a persons maturity level on how well they understand and follow scripture in their daily lives. That's not being judgmental, that's just being wise.
Right. What is yet to be determine is how relevant one's clothing is to following Scripture.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/4/2007 4:59:20 PM
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TonyRush
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
I would have a problem with the "youth leader" being a "she." Huh? Why?
Tony
_____________________________
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same quality of thinking that created them" -- Albert Einstein
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