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RE: Youth Leader - 12/12/2007 5:12:21 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Yes, the passage that specifically commands modest dress talks about immodest displays of wealth. Does that mean that your understanding of Biblical morality allows a youth worker to show up to lead wearing nothing but a lace thong and fishnet stockings, and have that be modest dress, as long as the clothes were purchased at Wall-Mart and not Neiman Marcus?
Is your argument really going to be that there is no such thing as modesty when it comes to sexuality?
As of yet, I've not seen a culture that dresses as you described.
My argument comes from the Bible and goes back to the Bible. Prove me wrong and I will change my stand.
BTW -- Where's the Biblical argument that a youth leader can even be a woman?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/12/2007 5:32:00 PM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 3791
Joined: 4/9/2005
From: The EMPIRE state!
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quote:
BTW -- Where's the Biblical argument that a youth leader can even be a woman?
Well, that's a whole 'nother topic.
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Please do not PM me about this message, discuss it at the water cooler, or include it in your church bulletins. If you have questions, please keep them to yourself. ~Kerrlaw
W2D1
292 more miles t
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/12/2007 6:22:49 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17232
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
BTW -- Where's the Biblical argument that a youth leader can even be a woman?
That line of discussion is off topic for this thread. If you would like to discuss that topic please join the Mens/Womens Role in the Church One Stop which I have linked for you below.
Men/Women roles in the church:
Click Here
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Kath
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/12/2007 6:23:42 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2081
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
As of yet, I've not seen a culture that dresses as you described.
That is completely irrelevant. If there is no call to be modest in sexuality, then it doesn't matter how a culture dresses.
See posts #91 - #95 for why cultural concerns are completely irrelevant to the point that there is a call for sexual modesty. If we cannot agree that it is possible to dress in a sexually immodest manner, then there is no point to this thread, at all.
quote:
I agree that the wicked shall not enter rest. They will not gain salvation nor eternal life. If you don't have eternal life, then you die. No sense trying to explain death into meaning something other than death.
What is your argument? All I've seen you claim so far is that the Biblical admonishment to modesty does not apply to sexually provocative dress.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/12/2007 7:12:39 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
That is completely irrelevant. If there is no call to be modest in sexuality, then it doesn't matter how a culture dresses.
See posts #91 - #95 for why cultural concerns are completely irrelevant to the point that there is a call for sexual modesty. If we cannot agree that it is possible to dress in a sexually immodest manner, then there is no point to this thread, at all.
No, it is not irrelevant. The culture is the issue.
We can agree that it is possible to dress in a sexually immodest manner WITHIN A CULTURE. "Sexually immodest" is defined by culture, not scripture. Biblical immodesty refers to displays of wealth.
Which is why I bring up topics the rest of you think is off topic, but really aren't. The application is that you are applying your cultural biases to judge somebody and falsely claiming a basis in scripture, when really your are applying culture standards.
A woman dressed sexually immodestly in the Old Testament would be totally covered and unrecognizable. Check out Genesis 38. While Tamar dressed immodestly for her culture, she would be considered overly modest in modern USA.
The point of my argument is that cultural influences are being used to interpret scripture. I am not saying it is right or wrong either way, but that we should recognize our cultural biases and not judge others who are trying to do the Lord’s work.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/12/2007 8:03:55 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11469
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
We can agree that it is possible to dress in a sexually immodest manner WITHIN A CULTURE. "Sexually immodest" is defined by culture, not scripture. Biblical immodesty refers to displays of wealth.
So in a culture in which braiding hair doesn't mean one is wealthy, is it biblically immodest for me to braid my hair?
You're making it sound like there are set, non-cultural rules for not dressing to flaunt one's wealth yet look to the culture for sexual modesty.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/13/2007 3:27:44 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Why are we so eager to associate skin with sexuality? I don't consider a two piece bathing suit on a woman anything sexual at all. Some people do, but some people consider feet sexual, so are we to make everyone cover their feet at all times.
There are cultures which do not associate even nudity with sexuality. Ours has evolved into such a place, but if it's not a cultural issue at all anyway, and it should be universal, who gets to decide what is sexual and what is not?
When God made clothes for Adam and Eve out of animal skin, are we told that the clothes were elaborate, longflowing, and showing as little skin as possible? We aren't told either way, but we do have drawings from some of the earliest people (such as in ancient Midian), which show that clothing wasn't elaborate, or even covering a whole lot.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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[Deleted] - 12/13/2007 6:05:25 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/13/2007 7:51:19 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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You're taking what I said further than where it was meant to go.
I wouldn't want people wearing those types of clothing in church, not because of any inherent morality therein or because church requires better clothes than other occasions. I don't believe those things at all. However, I wouldn't want people wearing those types of clothing in church simply so that they don't cause their brethren to stumble in faith. Some people clearly do have problems with this type of clothing.
As far as dress codes in businesses, that's at the discretion of the owner of the business (or the school board in that case). Private institutions or governing bodies can make rules, no matter how useless they are. Why a person can't come from the beach wearing their swimwear and go into a store and buy a Gatorade to drink, I'll never know, but that's the prerogative of the owner of the store. That same store owner can paint purple chickens all over the walls if he wants. It's all part of his freedom as a store owner.
If I was part of a congregation that realized they were free in Christ to wear what they will (just like we're free to eat what we will, and assuming their nakedness is not uncovered), then I wouldn't mind a pastor wearing whatever the pastor wanted to wear. I wouldn't mind if all the pastors did so. What's the difference between what one of the pastors wears and what anyone else wears? We're all the body of Christ.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/13/2007 1:43:27 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deadhead
So you would have no problem with someone wearing a two piece bikini to church? Why are there dress codes for schools, businesses, stores, if it doesn't matter? What if a pastor wore nothing but a speedo?
If that church were in the jungles somewhere, a two-piece bikini might be overdressing.
Hmmm.... let's see how many times we have to repeat this...
Dress codes for schools, businesses, etc. are all in our culture. Change cultures and the dress codes change. Try taking one of out highschool kids dressed for Sunday School and plopping them down in a British or Japanese school. They would be tossed out immediately for improper dress.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/13/2007 1:49:14 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
If I was part of a congregation that realized they were free in Christ to wear what they will (just like we're free to eat what we will, and assuming their nakedness is not uncovered), then I wouldn't mind a pastor wearing whatever the pastor wanted to wear. I wouldn't mind if all the pastors did so. What's the difference between what one of the pastors wears and what anyone else wears? We're all the body of Christ.
I agree. Why should the pastor (and his family) and the leaders (and their families) be held to a separate dress code than the rest of the congregation?
In my church, halter tops and mini skirts are not uncommon. So if the wife or daughter of a leader dresses that way (and they do) there is no problem. I must admit though, that if one of the leaders started dressing like that, he would have other issues to deal with than immodesty.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/13/2007 2:00:50 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
We can agree that it is possible to dress in a sexually immodest manner WITHIN A CULTURE. "Sexually immodest" is defined by culture, not scripture. Biblical immodesty refers to displays of wealth.
So in a culture in which braiding hair doesn't mean one is wealthy, is it biblically immodest for me to braid my hair?
You're making it sound like there are set, non-cultural rules for not dressing to flaunt one's wealth yet look to the culture for sexual modesty.
Good question. You are beginning to see the cross-cultural issues missionaries deal with all the time.
What is it that displays wealth in our culture? That is immodest. The actual form of the immodest style changes, while the intent stays the same -- draw attention to our wealth.
The principal is not to draw attention to yourself. The form that takes varies with culture and setting.
I would actually take a much broader stance than any of you have yet to state and say that ANYTHING which draws attention to the person and away from Christ is immodest. It could be humor, clever speech, wealth, sensuality, etc. My job is to blend into the culture so that people do not look at me, but Christ, and anything that would draw attention to me would in turn point them to Christ.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/13/2007 4:23:33 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
I wouldn't want people wearing those types of clothing in church, not because of any inherent morality therein or because church requires better clothes than other occasions. I don't believe those things at all. However, I wouldn't want people wearing those types of clothing in church simply so that they don't cause their brethren to stumble in faith. Some people clearly do have problems with this type of clothing.
And that's what we're talking about here. What is appropriate for a youth worker to wear at church? And I'm assuming we're talking about in North America, not in the jungle wilds. 
It depends on the church. If the church is full of people who choose to be offended by that type of clothing, then the youth worker shouldn't dress that way. If the church is full of people who realize they are free to wear what they will, then she may.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/13/2007 5:30:45 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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Let's go back to the original OP:
quote:
So would you have an issue if your childs youth leader were to wear a halter top or mini skirt?
In the USA, in today's youth culture, in my church, and assuming that a woman is allowed to be a leader, the plain and simple answer is:
No, I have no issue with it.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/19/2007 5:13:51 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2081
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
The application is that you are applying your cultural biases to judge somebody and falsely claiming a basis in scripture, when really your are applying culture standards.
Reread my posts. I haven't applied any standards beyond the general concept of modesty. I have not defined what is modest and what is not, I have merely tried to get everyone involved in this thread to agree that modesty is something that Christians are called to. Since you're obviously not reading my posts, I'm not sure why I should bother posting.
quote:
The point of my argument is that cultural influences are being used to interpret scripture. I am not saying it is right or wrong either way, but that we should recognize our cultural biases and not judge others who are trying to do the Lord’s work.
It's a cultural bias to say that Christians should dress modestly?
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Why are we so eager to associate skin with sexuality? I don't consider a two piece bathing suit on a woman anything sexual at all.
Well, in North American culture, the main reason for showing skin is to advertise one's self as sexually attractive. That may not be true everywhere, but it is generally true in colder climates. However, regardless of where you live, there are certain bathing suits that are sold specifically to be sexually revealling. There are companies who specialize in such small string bikinis that some don't even cover the entire genital area, made from fabric that is specifically meant to turn translucent when wet. Such outfits are sold specifically with the intent to send a sexual message when worn. It cannot be argued otherwise. There are such outfits in many cultures. In some areas, padded skirts are worn to accentuate the hips and proclaim that a woman is sexually mature and draw attention to her fertility. In other areas, colored bracelets are worn to advertise what sexual activities the wearer participates in. In past cultures, prostitutes shaved their heads to show of their cleanliness. There have always been forms of dress that are specifically meant to draw unrighteous attention to the wearer. Which is why:
quote:
If the church is full of people who realize they are free to wear what they will, then she may.
This is not true. Christians are NOT free to wear whatever we will. The women in Timothy's church weren't allowed to wear whatever they wanted. No Christian is allowed to wear whatever they want. We must dress modestly. Yes, that means we aren't to show off our wealth, but we're also not supposed to show in any number of other ways. We aren't supposed to wear dress that would advertise that we support or engage in sin. We aren't supposed to dress, or act with intention, to draw attention to our beauty, our sexuality, our good works or other things. Someone who wears a shirt that says "I spent 100 hours helping the homeless" is being immodest. Someone who (literally) wears a shirt that says "Buy me a drink and I'll have sex with you" is immodest, even if the shirt is a joke. There are many forms of immodesty, and the Church is called to dress modestly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Let's go back to the original OP:
quote:
So would you have an issue if your childs youth leader were to wear a halter top or mini skirt?
In the USA, in today's youth culture, in my church, and assuming that a woman is allowed to be a leader, the plain and simple answer is:
No, I have no issue with it.
Is there any outfit, dress or behavior that you would have issue with?
I already asked this question, but recieved no answer: (from post #95)
"Now, having led youth activies myself, I know that being a youth leader can be a pretty physically demanding job. Keeping up with the youth often involves sitting in a circle of chairs (with no table to hide legs), sitting on the floor, running, jumping and other activities. If a skirt were short enough that it would be impossible to do these activities without repeatedly revealing underwear to those around, would you consider that skirt to be immodest?"
Let me remind you that in North American culture, and probably many other places in the world, an adult woman knowingly flashing her panties is considered to be sexually provocative.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Youth Leader - 4/14/2008 2:15:11 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5586
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
In my church, halter tops and mini skirts are not uncommon.
And where do you go to Church Doug?
'
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Youth Leader - 4/14/2008 5:22:53 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
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A youth leader is to set a Christ-like example, and I'm quite sure Jesus wouldn't wear a mini skirt. (not to mention the fact that teenagers are so hormonal, the image alone would arouse some impure thought. I know that song and dance all too well.)
Even Jesus' robe went beyond His upper thighs.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Youth Leader - 4/15/2008 2:48:29 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
In my church, halter tops and mini skirts are not uncommon.
And where do you go to Church Doug?
'
Thanks
RC
A PCA church.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 4/15/2008 2:53:23 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Reread my posts. I haven't applied any standards...
Well, in North American culture...
Let me remind you that in North American culture...
Allow me to point out that in the same post which claims that no cultural standards have been applied, an appeal is made to "North American culture" at least twice.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 4/16/2008 12:37:06 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 920
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Is there any outfit, dress or behavior that you would have issue with?
I already asked this question, but recieved no answer: (from post #95)
"Now, having led youth activies myself, I know that being a youth leader can be a pretty physically demanding job. Keeping up with the youth often involves sitting in a circle of chairs (with no table to hide legs), sitting on the floor, running, jumping and other activities. If a skirt were short enough that it would be impossible to do these activities without repeatedly revealing underwear to those around, would you consider that skirt to be immodest?"
I already answered it in post #113. Let me repeat:
quote:
I would actually take a much broader stance than any of you have yet to state and say that ANYTHING which draws attention to the person and away from Christ is immodest. It could be humor, clever speech, wealth, sensuality, etc. My job is to blend into the culture so that people do not look at me, but Christ, and anything that would draw attention to me would in turn point them to Christ.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 7/14/2008 3:39:47 PM
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faroukfarouk
Posts: 874
Joined: 4/16/2008
Status: offline
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DougH:
Really? I hadn't heard of any like that, interesting. In North America, is it?
So I guess that for Youth Leaders you don't have a problem with it, then.
Take care.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I know of churches where you are EXPECTED to get a tattoo. The tattoo marks you visibly as a Christian.
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
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