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RE: Mormonism? - 8/25/2008 1:03:56 AM
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mushhead
Posts: 512
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
However, one should be aware of the Book of Mormon's criticism of the Bible:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.
25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
Ephesians 4_32,
Yes, Joseph Smith claims that soon after the Apostles were all dead the Gospel was perverted and consequently the pure Gospel was lost for eighteen hundred years until God restored it through his prophet Joseph. Yet, in the OT book of Isaiah we have God telling us that the word of God will never pass away:
quote:
The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. (Isaiah 40:6-8)
We also have God's revelation (repeated throughout the OT) that whatever He declares will take place because: 1- no man has the power to annul His promises; 2- no unforseen circumstances will surprise Him:
quote:
27For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? (Isaiah 14:27)
8Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. (Isaiah 46:8-11)
So let's summarize:
1- God declares that His word will never pass away
2- God tells us that whatever He declares will take place, and nothing can or will change that fact.
3- God gives us an unbreakable promise that His word will stand forever.
These passages create a serious problem for Mormons - God says that His word will alway stand. Joseph Smith says that God's word disappeared for approximately 1800 years. God says that nothing will keep Him from fulfilling His promises. Smith's claim that the word was perverted means that God failed to keep His promise. Faced with these contradictory claims people must choose who to believe - God or Joseph. They must decide who is more likely to be wrong about this issue - God or Joseph. Who is more likely to be deceived by an evil spirit - God or Joseph? Who is more likely to be lying - God or Joseph?
How do you think most mormons will answer these questions? Or should I ask, how have they answered these questions already? I'll leave you with one more question to ponder:
What do their answers say about who is the real object of their faith - God or Joseph?
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/25/2008 8:40:42 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Here are words from one their favorite hymns, "Praise To The Man".
LDS HYMN #27 "PRAISE TO THE MAN"
1) Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.
chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.
2) Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.
3) Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.
4) Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.
Praising Joseph Smith, celebrated in the same way The Holy Trinity is worshipped. There's blasphemy!
-Dave
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/2/2008 9:45:12 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1711
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
I spoke to a Mormon online and she had some really different beliefs. She thought that if a person was unsaved and a non-believer then when they died they still got a second chance to go to Heaven...didnt make any sense at all. I asked her where she got that idea and wanted her to post a verse from her bible that said that and she couldnt do it. It made me very wary of her beliefs and faith from that moment.
Mormons have four books of what they regard as scripture:
KJV Bible
Book of Mormon
Doctrine and Covenants
Pearl of Great Price
Her Bible would be the same as mine (KJV). The verse they use to say that the Gospel is presented to lost souls in the next life is 1 Peter 3:19.
1 Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/3/2008 2:05:25 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
Status: offline
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Mormons are lost. They dont believe the truth of Gods word. Its sad - really it is. I hope and pray they will all see the light before its too late.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2008 1:21:40 PM
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Tagurit
Posts: 22
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
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Whew! It has taken me three days but I finally finished the thread! This was the most information I have ever had the privelege to read on this cult. At first I was angry for the fact that there are people so blinded that are leading so many down a path of eternal destruction. In the middle on or about page 30 I felt sorry for them in that nothing can be proven by them.
Now, at the end, I am truly sad for them all and spent time in prayer for them.
I do have a question--even after reading all the posts.......
As I was leaving for work the other day (backing out of the driveway) I almost ran over two guys. I stopped to say I was sorry and they asked if they could talk to me. I asked them if they were JWs or mormons and they said mormons. I was determined to be as nice and compassionate as I could because I wanted to witness to them.
I didn't have much time to talk though so I asked them beack to my house the next day--they never came back. However, during our short conversation they asked where I went to Church and I told them the name of the Baptist church I attend. They had big smiles and said that was a great Church.
My question is this--I know they did not mean that. Is it a practice of their missionaries to try and manipulate people in this way? I could not with any honesty say the same about a mormon church because I know they are leading others away from Christ.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2008 2:24:45 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I've got to say you are one brave soul to have read all the way through this thread! I read the first page or two, then skimmed through the rest until I came to what was, at that time, the end.
To answer your question about the missionaries: they are told not to alienate anyone, to be polite and friendly, and to give the "warm, fuzzy feeling" about their beliefs. They will begin by finding out how you feel about such things as God and Jesus Christ, family, being with friends and family in eternity, etc. From there, they will ease into "don't you wish you would be able to spend all eternity with The Heavenly Father and your loved ones?" It's wonderful "feel-good" stuff. Who wouldn't want that! They will try to gain your confidence in them and will testify to you that the LDS church is the only way that all this good stuff can happen.
Then it moves on into the beginnings of the LDS church, Joseph Smith, etc., all the while showing all the compassion they can muster. They will never, during this period, put down another church, not even the Catholic Church, which many Mormons believe is the "whore" mentioned in Revelation. The Baptist Church, especially the Southern Baptist, is only one click better, but they won't tell you that either.
They gently suck you into their black hole of lies and half-truths, smiling, shaking hands, and embracing all the while. It's a process that takes several weeks. Now, you may try to witnessing to them, but believe me, even at their young ages, they are too steeped in the Mormon theology for you to make any significant dent in their armor.
I wish you the best of luck with them, if they do come back, and I'll be praying for you.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tagurit
Whew! It has taken me three days but I finally finished the thread! This was the most information I have ever had the privelege to read on this cult. At first I was angry for the fact that there are people so blinded that are leading so many down a path of eternal destruction. In the middle on or about page 30 I felt sorry for them in that nothing can be proven by them.
Now, at the end, I am truly sad for them all and spent time in prayer for them.
I do have a question--even after reading all the posts.......
As I was leaving for work the other day (backing out of the driveway) I almost ran over two guys. I stopped to say I was sorry and they asked if they could talk to me. I asked them if they were JWs or mormons and they said mormons. I was determined to be as nice and compassionate as I could because I wanted to witness to them.
I didn't have much time to talk though so I asked them beack to my house the next day--they never came back. However, during our short conversation they asked where I went to Church and I told them the name of the Baptist church I attend. They had big smiles and said that was a great Church.
My question is this--I know they did not mean that. Is it a practice of their missionaries to try and manipulate people in this way? I could not with any honesty say the same about a mormon church because I know they are leading others away from Christ.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2008 5:18:22 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 512
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tagurit
My question is this--I know they did not mean that. Is it a practice of their missionaries to try and manipulate people in this way? I could not with any honesty say the same about a mormon church because I know they are leading others away from Christ.
Tagurit,
Welcome to CrossWalk!!!
To answer your question, yes and yes. Yes they will try to manipulate you this way. But if they come back you will get to experience other ways they will try to manipulate you as well.
If I might offer you some advise about how to witness to missionaries: if you get the chance to share the "real" Gospel with them, they will likely tell you they believe the same thing. They will cite the same passages of Scripture that Christians commonly use to share the Gospel, i.e. Ephesians 2:8-9. Listen carefully to the way they phrase their comments in this exchange, because they will likely make very subtle changes to the passage or include something un-Biblical in their explanation of their "orthodox" beliefs. Some are better at this than others. I've had to spend up to half and hour asking questions before getting a missionary to admit what he really believes.
Also, at the risk of repeating something you just read on this thread (I'm betting that after three days of reading you would prefer we didn't start repeating ourselves) it is important to understand that when Mormons quote the Bible, they only know about the particular passages they are citing. They usually haven't read the verses around the passages they cite. I tell you this because if you need to dispute their interpretation it is helpful to take them to the passage and have them read it in context. It is also helpful to have them read for themselves anything you teach them - if they will. They do have a high regard for the Bible, and most everyday mormons will accept as true anything they read in the Bible. Hopefully reading the passages for themselves will open them to the Holy Spirit challenging their beliefs.
Finally, when witnessing to missionaries, you will likely not get to see any fruit produced by your efforts. Mormons have an "accountability" system in place to insure that missionaries don't get into trouble. If a missionary begins showing signs of conviction from your witness, it will likely be identified by his or her partner and that missionary will be reassigned - maybe even retrained.
EDITED TO ADD: If they didn't come back when they said they would, it is unlikely they will be back at all.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2008 10:34:01 PM
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Tagurit
Posts: 22
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
They usually haven't read the verses around the passages they cite. I tell you this because if you need to dispute their interpretation it is helpful to take them to the passage and have them read it in context. It is also helpful to have them read for themselves anything you teach them - if they will. They do have a high regard for the Bible, and most everyday mormons will accept as true anything they read in the Bible.
Thanks for the welcome! I almost feel like I know some of you after reading about a hundred of your posts.
Most of the experiences I have had so far have been with the JWs for some reason. This is one reason I was so drawn to this thread--I wanted to get more familiar with this particular cult. What I have seen so far is that they are eerily similiar--both deny Christ.
I have studied the bible for many years and none of the arguments I read in this thread by the mormons made me really stop and think. There were some great responses by you guys and if I was an unbeliever it would have persuaded me. That just goes to demonstrate to me how deeply brainwashed these guys are in this evil culture. I ordered the book "Kingdom of the Cults" when I started this thread and it just arrived today so I guess I will be up pretty late...
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/6/2008 8:44:28 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Ah yes, Kingdom of the Cults is a great book. It reveals the LDS church for what it really is.
Now, the Mormons don't deny Christ. Quite the opposite. They do praise him. However, as you will learn, their Christ is not the same one we worship. I'm sure that's brought out in the book.
Keep the faith. You're on the right track. Don't let them derail you.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tagurit
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
They usually haven't read the verses around the passages they cite. I tell you this because if you need to dispute their interpretation it is helpful to take them to the passage and have them read it in context. It is also helpful to have them read for themselves anything you teach them - if they will. They do have a high regard for the Bible, and most everyday mormons will accept as true anything they read in the Bible.
Thanks for the welcome! I almost feel like I know some of you after reading about a hundred of your posts.
Most of the experiences I have had so far have been with the JWs for some reason. This is one reason I was so drawn to this thread--I wanted to get more familiar with this particular cult. What I have seen so far is that they are eerily similiar--both deny Christ.
I have studied the bible for many years and none of the arguments I read in this thread by the mormons made me really stop and think. There were some great responses by you guys and if I was an unbeliever it would have persuaded me. That just goes to demonstrate to me how deeply brainwashed these guys are in this evil culture. I ordered the book "Kingdom of the Cults" when I started this thread and it just arrived today so I guess I will be up pretty late...
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/7/2008 9:09:07 AM
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Tagurit
Posts: 22
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Ah yes, Kingdom of the Cults is a great book. It reveals the LDS church for what it really is.
Now, the Mormons don't deny Christ. Quite the opposite. They do praise him. However, as you will learn, their Christ is not the same one we worship. I'm sure that's brought out in the book.
Keep the faith. You're on the right track. Don't let them derail you.
-Dave
Thanks Dave. I'm not worried about being derailed. I just needed to polish up on my apologetics in order to converse with them. I have never really had any chance meetings with them until recently.
Now, my son has a friend that lives across the street who is also a mormon. He has already trusted in Christ as his Saviour and prays for this neighbor kid everyday.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/8/2008 5:01:05 PM
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officer2002
Posts: 5
Joined: 8/31/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ScenesterForGOD
Thanks so much everyone.
Now, I dont want you to get confused, Im not looking to convert, Im just doing some study on different religions to try to understand what others think.
But I do have a question about Marriage in the Mormon churches. My friend told me that if a male Mormon marrys a non-Mormon female, the church will try to convert the female, and if that dosnt work they will pressure the male into leaving his wife.
I dont know if it holds any truth, but I would really like to know. Because a dear friend of mine is dating a mormon guy right now and she isnt mormon herself.
Thanks again so much everyone. God bless
==============================================
ScenesterForGod
After a marriage takes place there is no teaching to divorce the unbelieving spouse!!! Someone responded to your post by telling about someone they knew who was told to divorce. That bishop was out of line and not following the Church's teachings or there were details of abdultery, etc that the poster did not reveal in the posting.
We do believe against inter-religion marrying for everyone(I am thinking of a quote from the prophet Joseph F. Smith).
Any marriage outside of a Temple(including between 2 Mormons) will have an end whereas marriages performed in a Temple(if they live the rest of thier lives well) will never end and is what Father in Heaven wants for us. Non-members may not enter Temple before becoming members.
We hope for everyone in the world to enter the straight and narrow gate to Heaven(which is baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint).
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/8/2008 5:15:27 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
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*ding ding*
Another round begins........
officer2002, regardless of where a marriage ceremony takes place, the marriage will end. There is no eternal marriage.
Matthew 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
No where do we see angels married in the bible. They exist to worship God and do His bidding.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/8/2008 7:06:10 PM
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officer2002
Posts: 5
Joined: 8/31/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
The big issue I have right now is the issue of race. The Book of Mormon teaches that those who didn't want to believe were cursed with black skin. Those who did believe were made "fair and delightsome." This has been mentioned a few times in the Book of Mormon. Yet when I questioned my friends on this one, the answer I got was "well Gladys Knight is a member of my LDS church in Las Vegas!" Didn't quite give me the sufficient answers I need. According to them, my husband and child are cursed. However, from what I have read, if my husband and child convert, they will be given white skin! And my friends can try and tell me its not true, which they did, but its in their book so either their book has lied to them, or they are trying to change their book to fit the times and neither sits well.
The Lord used race differently in the past than he does now. At ~550 BC the non-Christians were given a dark skin because thier fathers rebelled.
Nobody will be punished or held back from exaltation because of thier skin color.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/8/2008 9:42:10 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: officer2002
quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
The big issue I have right now is the issue of race. The Book of Mormon teaches that those who didn't want to believe were cursed with black skin. Those who did believe were made "fair and delightsome." This has been mentioned a few times in the Book of Mormon. Yet when I questioned my friends on this one, the answer I got was "well Gladys Knight is a member of my LDS church in Las Vegas!" Didn't quite give me the sufficient answers I need. According to them, my husband and child are cursed. However, from what I have read, if my husband and child convert, they will be given white skin! And my friends can try and tell me its not true, which they did, but its in their book so either their book has lied to them, or they are trying to change their book to fit the times and neither sits well.
The Lord used race differently in the past than he does now. At ~550 BC the non-Christians were given a dark skin because thier fathers rebelled.
Nobody will be punished or held back from exaltation because of thier skin color.
God is unchanging. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
LDS use race differently now than they did in the past. That is what changed. It became too hot of an issue to not address.
Exaltation is a lie. We will not become like God. There is NONE like Him.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/10/2008 1:40:20 AM
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Tagurit
Posts: 22
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We already know that. Mormonism has changed its spots more than once to suit its agenda. It's follwers are so deceived that they willingly accept whatever silly explanation is given to justify the cover up.
And haven't those spots been changed like over 3000 times in their revisions? How can anyone take a cult like this seriously when during an obvious time of their own failure (all those false prophecies) they just change their "instruction manual"?
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/10/2008 12:01:59 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Tagurit,
Mormons are not encouraged to study their faith. Christians are told to study and investigate, because we know the Bible is true, and the more we study, the more we find truth.
Mormons are taught to accept what their prophets are saying without investigating. If they doubt, they are told to feel deep inside of themselves to feel what is true--it's feelings-based and not thinking-based.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/10/2008 12:21:39 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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The average person, even the average Mormon, does not know of all the changes that have been made over the years. When a Mormon does learn of a change, he is told it was due to divine inspiration to the "prophet" (head of the LDS church). A good Mormon never questions the thoughts, words, or actions of the "prophet." These revisions only reach the general public through books such as "Kingdom Of The Cults" and various websites such as CrossWalk.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tagurit
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We already know that. Mormonism has changed its spots more than once to suit its agenda. It's follwers are so deceived that they willingly accept whatever silly explanation is given to justify the cover up.
And haven't those spots been changed like over 3000 times in their revisions? How can anyone take a cult like this seriously when during an obvious time of their own failure (all those false prophecies) they just change their "instruction manual"?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/10/2008 12:44:06 PM
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