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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/22/2008 3:03:12 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 363
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quote:
ORIGINAL: robto
It is interesting that so many in this thread don't have any problem with messing around with the Bible in this way.
Conservative Christians often accuse liberal Christians of "picking and choosing" which parts of the Bible to believe. For instance, in this thread, the liberal response would be to try to determine which of the two versions was more historically likely in its context, or which was more supported by external evidence. And such a person would be accused of leaving out the parts of the Bible he/she didn't like.
But the alternative most here seem to approve of is to ADD things that aren't in the Bible to harmonize the two versions. So, turtleman adds that the branch broke during the earthquake. In doing so, he is creating a THIRD version, different from either of the two that are in the Bible. (I don't intend to pick on you, turtleman. I could just as well have taken any of the other harmonizations that have been proposed.)
So my question for all of you proposing harmonization is this: Why is it OK to add to the Bible, but not to delete from it? Why is creating your own version of the Bible acceptable, whereas treating the Bible books as historical documents and applying the rules of historical investigation is not?
The Bible says that Judas hung himself and also speaks of him bursting open. Therefore, I believe that both somehow happened. I can speculate as to how this may have happened, but that is all that it would be...speculation. I would not say that my speculations should be added to the Bible.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/24/2008 12:24:16 AM
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sandman
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I understand this is not a salvation issue …but it is a biblical issue and maybe this information will help
The first thing to remember when it comes too apparent contradictions is “that there are no contradictions in the Bible”.Errors in transmission, deliberate forgeries, mistranslation, or misunderstanding are all causes for what appears, as apparent contradictions.
Matthew 27:5 seems to indicate that Judas hanged himself before the crucifixion.
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Because of the verse in Matthew we have always thought that Judas immediately went out and hanged himself, but the verse in I Corinthians 15:5 and the records in both Luke 24:33-36 and John 20:19-24 show Judas being present after the resurrection, which is a notable or apparent contradiction.
Because God is perfect, so also is His word in its original form. So when we run across something that doesn’t fit or appears to contradict itself, we must look in one of the above four categories; in this case it is “misunderstanding” of the words “hanged himself” in Matthew 27:5
The word translated hanged himself in the King James version is apanchomai from the Greek word apanchô it is used only once in the New Testament.
In classic literature it means to “strangle” or “to choke” and is used figuratively to mean “to choke with anger” or “grief” (1.)The Expositor’s Greek Testament suggests that apanchô points to death by grief rather than literal choking. (2.) This is correct only to the extent that Judas did not die immediately in Matthew 27, but he was extremely grieved over the betrayal This figurative usage is also verified in the classical writings Aristophanes (3.)
(1.) Henry G. Liddell and Robert Scott. A Greek – English Lexicon, rev. by Henry S. Jones {1843; 9th ed., Oxford Press} 1940 p.174
(2.) W. Robertson Nicoll , The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 6 vols. {London Hodder and Stoughton, 1897} 1: 323.
(3.) Aristophanes Vespae 686.
This seems to be what this word “hanged himself” suggest, and would fit with the emotional torment and grief that Judas would be going through.
We can, from a purely human aspect, understand just how one might feel after betraying not just a friend, but also someone who you now realize was the redeemer for Israel.
But there is a greater depth to his betrayal culturally that we must understand in order to fully grasps the agonizing grief that was taking hold of Judas; and that is “the covenant of salt.”
In short: the salt covenant is an oriental custom still in practice today. It means that when you partook in the covenant, be it from salted food, drink, or exchanged a pinch of salt at the marriage ceremony, your words were your bond, you would never …..even at the cost of death, betray that person you had a covenant with.
There is no reference I could give you, at least in American culture that would equal that of the covenant of salt. It is so honored that you could leave a known thief with all your worldly possessions and money, and not worry about a thing, if you had a covenant of salt with that person.
The honorable thing to do if you broke the covenant of salt was to commit suicide, and if you did not, someone else would be oblige to do it for you.
Many references of salted words and salt covenant are found throughout the old and new Testament; Judas, as did the rest of the Apostles had a salt covenant with Jesus.
But if Judas is alive after the resurrection ………..when and how did he die?
Acts 1:1-11
Acts 1:1 The former treaties {scrolls of Luke} [color:blue] have I made O theophilus of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.
2. Until the day in which He was taken up after that He through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles {Luke 6:13-16} whom he had chosen:
3. To whom he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them {the 12 apostles whom he had chosen} forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
4. And being assembled together with them commanded them {the 12} that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father which saith he, ye have heard of me. {Matthew 3:11}
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6. When they {the 12} therefore were come together they {the 12} asked of Him, saying, “Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom if Israel?”
7. And He said unto them, {the 12} it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power.
8. But ye shall receive power after that the holy ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Judaea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.
9. And when He had spoken these things, while they {the 12} beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10. And while they {the 12} looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel.
11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which was taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Sometime between verse 10 and verse 11 Judas Iscariot left to commit suicide. We know this by following the pronouns from verse three to verse 10, speaking of “the apostles whom Jesus had chosen” in verse two.
In verse eleven it changes from “them” to “ye men of Galilee,” Judas Iscariot was the only non-Galilean, he was from Kerioth, a town in Judea. We do not know how much time took place between verse 10 and 11 but it was sufficient time for Judas to take a hike.
Two things to keep in mind here………First: I didn’t write the book… I understand this is contrary to what most of us have been taught about the death of Judas, but God is the author, and clearly the author shows Judas being alive after the resurrection ….
Secondly: words mean thing! God has a purpose for everything he says, where he say it, why he says it, when he says it, how he says it, and to whom ……….if that is what the Word says, that is what it means ….we just read and believe …………end of story …..well not quite the end ……
what happened to Judas is explained in Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Even after seeing Jesus at least three times, and having been forgiven by the Lord, it must have been too much for him to cope with. Through his agonizing grief opened himself up to being possessed with the spirit of suicide, impaling himself on a sharp instrument, possibly sword, or a sharp stake.
Some food for thought …. If Judas did kill himself before the ascension …………wouldn’t Jesus be the likely candidate to select a new apostle? And if Judas did kill himself immediately after the betrayal and Jesus did not find it necessary to replace him …………why would the apostles feel it necessary to do so?
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God Bless
sandman
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/24/2008 1:07:54 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3960
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sandman
Through his agonizing grief opened himself up to being possessed with the spirit of suicide, impaling himself on a sharp instrument, possibly sword, or a sharp stake.
God Bless
sandman
An amazing gymnastics routine. I'll give you a 9.5. You still give no evidence for your interpretation of "impaled". It would be easier to make a case for leaping off a cliff.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/26/2008 8:10:27 PM
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sandman
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Joined: 6/17/2005
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Well I appreciate your high marks but I was really hoping for a 9.8 or possibly a 10.
So where did I go wrong? Although I think I know, I will hold that in abeyance because
I felt my approach was good
my presentation…… impeachable {documented by the Word}
And I am sure I stuck the landing ………….but I guess I can allow for the .5 reduction as the Word does not specifically state “impale”.
But this is my reasoning behind my statement.
and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
I used the word impaled to describe the action of whatever object caused his bowels to gush out ………which most likely was a sword, as that was a more common form of suicide according to historical biblical documents and some accounts within the Word; although it is not written and therefore would only be logical speculation according to scriptural reference.
I Samuel 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
5: And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him
Acts 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
For two reasons, I think we can eliminate the cliff theory:
First: God uses a different word (katakramnezo from the word kramnos) “for being cast down”, or “casting oneself down a precipice”
The word used for falling in Acts 1:18 is the verb ginomai meaning “to become” and then God uses the adjective prenes not katakramnezo for the word headlong meaning “bending foreword” or “prostrate”. In other words showing Judas in the act of bending over going face down…. not off a cliff …..but as I stated impaling himself.
Secondly: The purchase that Judas made with the “reward of iniquity” {wrongly assumed to be the 30 pieces of silver he received from the Chief Priests}was the place of suicide, and does not necessarily appeal to the cliff speculation.
There were two purchases of property that were made pertaining to this subject. The purchase Judas made with the “reward of iniquity” {which basically means ill-gotten money} was what we would refer to as “a parcel of land or dwelling”. The Greek word used In Acts 1:18&19 for field is chorion meaning “small property, farm, dwelling or parcel”
The place the chief Priests bought with the 30 pieces of silver more denotes a larger field in the country; this refers also to a cultivated field. The Greek word used for the field that the priests purchased in Matthew 27:7 is the word agros
Two separate purchases, two distinct properties. One could speculate that Judas used monies from the bag to purchase the chorion {parcel} for himself and then realized he needed to replace the monies; thus betraying Jesus for the 30 pieces of silver, because we know as John 12:6 states he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. Or it may have been ill-gotten from previous ventures; the Bible doesn’t say so we really don’t know ……But what the Bible does say, and what we do know, is that there were two different properties; one purchased by Judas and one purchased by the Chief Priests.
The reason why I don’t believe it was a cliff he went off, is because the property {chorion} that Judas purchased for himself would most likely not be able to sustain a cliff, furthermore the word chorion {field} carries no connotation except that of a relatively flat parcel of land.
The field purchased by the priests was originally known as the “potters field” but afterwards was called agros haimatos meaning the “field of blood” {a field bought with the price of blood}
The place which Judas acquired had a Aramaic name hakaldema translated akeldama {a place of blood} although the meanings are similar they are not identical; one gets it’s name from the purchase with the price of blood, the other because of Judas’s suicide
Those two reasons lead me to consider the likely possibility that Judas impaled himself with the sword or something a little sharper than a butter knife that would cause his bowls to gush out.
So considering what I have added …………..do you think there is any possibility, by combining the two, that
my score would be adjusted upward a few percentage points??????????
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God Bless
sandman
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/28/2008 1:50:42 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3960
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sandman
Well I appreciate your high marks but I was really hoping for a 9.8 or possibly a 10.
So where did I go wrong? Although I think I know, I will hold that in abeyance because
I felt my approach was good
my presentation…… impeachable {documented by the Word}
And I am sure I stuck the landing ………….but I guess I can allow for the .5 reduction as the Word does not specifically state “impale”.
But this is my reasoning behind my statement.
and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
I used the word impaled to describe the action of whatever object caused his bowels to gush out ………which most likely was a sword, as that was a more common form of suicide according to historical biblical documents and some accounts within the Word; although it is not written and therefore would only be logical speculation according to scriptural reference.
my score would be adjusted upward a few percentage points??????????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God Bless
sandman
One does not "burst" by being impaled. How about 9.55?
_____________________________
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