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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 12:38:14 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
It turns out it's of little value to talk to people here unless you get right to the point right away and not care too much about being insensitive (Of course I don't mean insensitive in an impolite or sinful way). So my goal is to just get right to the meat as quickly as possible, but one point at a time as you suggest.
Greetings,
That is honorable, but the real-time truth is it’s of little value to talk to anyone without real life testimony, a covenant so to speak!
And thus far as I can tell, you know your scriptures very well for lets say…the HS threads,
But I personally can’t find a witness in your offerings that you have experienced or have the knowledge of how to get the principals in the OT to work, or have seen them work, otherwise one would be offering by their testimony according to the scriptures rather than just scripture.
And real life testimony meaning…. on the lines that Jesus taught us in recognition of the Father…for example
11 Most assuredly, I say to you,
We speak what We know (scripture) and testify what We have seen (it being fulfilled), and you do not receive Our witness. =(Both together!)
Joh 5:31 - Show Context
"If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true
So you see it is of little value when there are those of us who seen the principals written in the books of the Bible come to pass from the promises made from God the Father, and then have others say they do not exist…..personally that is the reason why I have not answered many questions,
But we love ya …anyhow! 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 12:50:15 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
So far I have only found…. eternity!
I like the seven day limitation, but it is eternal. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 1:14:02 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 486
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quote:
I never said I did everything to perfection. What I am saying is at least I try. There is more to living bibicaly thatn do's and don'ts which is what evryone seems to be caught up on. Torah was never meant to be taken that way anyway. Help me understand what the whole point is.Is it that we try,or do the law?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 2:24:26 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Is it that we try,or do the law?
Maybe that's the problem. Trying or doing.
To be, or, not to be.
IMHO, the "key" is understanding.
I know about some things by reading,
but understand by doing.
When I "train" a new employee, I don't show them,
or read the book to them, I hand them the tools and
tell them what to do "as" they do it. Has to do with the
retention factor as well as the understanding.
Explaining the "why" helps a lot too.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 2:44:23 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
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quote:
I never said I did everything to perfection. 
May God bless you brother, glad so, dont even try to re: the rules currently debated! Otherwise all man's time would be consumed trying to stay "clean".
There are more women in life then a wife- daughters, co-workers, nurses, doctors, friends like me who always hug my friends, every day. You dont know who of the women that just touched you or whose seat you just taken is having that time...It would be safe to say that acc. to those rules no modern man is "clean", ever.
But i see your point and sincerety , and appreciate it. That is why i honestly asked if we all in agreement that the laws in question are not required to be kept in order to obtain salvation, then what are they for? Can some kind soul summarize the reasons, in sort of idiot proof, simple way?
Please, answer if you have desire to help me - what is the purpose of it? I promise to be very undestanding!
quote:
There is more to living bibicaly thatn do's and don'ts which is what everyone seems to be caught up on.
But that is what, using the working term of this thread, Torah Camp( TC) claims- not us. Me and Sponge many times said that please, do it the way you wish and if it works for you! TC says the opposite - we all shloud follow your ways. I am sincerely asking- why?
quote:
What I do on the outward is just a representation of what God has done on the inside.
Excellent, for your case . But we all agreed that doing smth on the outward is not necessarily changes the inside ! And the "inside" is what God is concerned about.
Would you agree that there are Messianics that are not pleasing to God becasue of what they are on the insede and christians that are pleasing? I say it it what in our heart that matters. Nobody yet managed to dispove it....
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 6/13/2008 2:51:48 PM >
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 4:34:42 PM
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bjay0801
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Yes maam, it is absolutley correct that it's the heart that matters. As it is in my signiture. I you ever noticed, Jesus spent more time telling the religious leaders that there are wieghtier matters in the law that are of importance that they should observe instead of focusing soley on the outward. He never said not to do them, but remember that there are other things in scriptures that are just as if not more important. You asked me about comforting my wife during sickness and I say absolutley! Why? Because I will love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave His life for it. Jesus kept the sabbath but also did more good on the sabbath because God desired us to love our neighbor as it is written in the torah. When we focus solely on the outward and not understand the why we do them then our outward expressions are worthless. (at least to me they are) I'll give you a good example:
4 days before passover, God said take in a young male lamb, feed it, allow your children to become attached to it, and on the 4th day, kill it.
Now do you see the sense of this? The blood of the Passover lamb is not anonymous. It is personal, intimate and agonizing. God intends that you should feel the horror of your sin in the death of an innocent little lamb. God wants you to be physically reminded that the only way you live is because this cute, cuddly lamb dies. Whenever we practice antiseptic forgiveness, we anesthetize our guilt. God wants us to know that sin brings death to the innocent. We are never to forget this. It is to be the basis of every day actions for the rest of the year.Bonhoeffer called it “cheap grace.” That seems to be one of the biggest problems in the church today. We don’t care for the lamb, so we don’t appreciate the sacrifice. It doesn’t touch us. We can just walk down the aisle, confess a few mistakes and feel “covered.” The real tragedy is that the blood of the innocent has no meaning for us. We go back to Monday’s job without any consideration of the loss that made Monday possible. Where the church av! oids the gore of killing the innocent in order to pay for the guilty, there is little if any appreciation for the passion of the Passion. It’s just another sanitary story, a celluloid diversion or a picture on the wall. It doesn’t hurt. It doesn’t break my heart, shake my emotions or touch my soul. I just go to the market and buy a piece of lamb. It’s no big deal. And with that approach to the next 364 days, sin has no real consequences either.
God knew what He was doing. The problem is not God’s. It’s ours. When we think we have a better way, we leave behind the four-day lesson. We’ll regret it, I’m afraid.
It's just my opinion, but where you see just a bunch of rules, I see God in His infinite wisdom reminding us of His plan for our lives.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 5:34:39 PM
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sunofone
Posts: 486
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Yes maam, it is absolutley correct that it's the heart that matters. As it is in my signiture. I you ever noticed, Jesus spent more time telling the religious leaders that there are wieghtier matters in the law that are of importance that they should observe instead of focusing soley on the outward. He never said not to do them, but remember that there are other things in scriptures that are just as if not more important. You asked me about comforting my wife during sickness and I say absolutley! Why? Because I will love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave His life for it. Jesus kept the sabbath but also did more good on the sabbath because God desired us to love our neighbor as it is written in the torah. When we focus solely on the outward and not understand the why we do them then our outward expressions are worthless. (at least to me they are) I'll give you a good example:
4 days before passover, God said take in a young male lamb, feed it, allow your children to become attached to it, and on the 4th day, kill it.
Now do you see the sense of this? The blood of the Passover lamb is not anonymous. It is personal, intimate and agonizing. God intends that you should feel the horror of your sin in the death of an innocent little lamb. God wants you to be physically reminded that the only way you live is because this cute, cuddly lamb dies. Whenever we practice antiseptic forgiveness, we anesthetize our guilt. God wants us to know that sin brings death to the innocent. We are never to forget this. It is to be the basis of every day actions for the rest of the year.Bonhoeffer called it “cheap grace.” That seems to be one of the biggest problems in the church today. We don’t care for the lamb, so we don’t appreciate the sacrifice. It doesn’t touch us. We can just walk down the aisle, confess a few mistakes and feel “covered.” The real tragedy is that the blood of the innocent has no meaning for us. We go back to Monday’s job without any consideration of the loss that made Monday possible. Where the church av! oids the gore of killing the innocent in order to pay for the guilty, there is little if any appreciation for the passion of the Passion. It’s just another sanitary story, a celluloid diversion or a picture on the wall. It doesn’t hurt. It doesn’t break my heart, shake my emotions or touch my soul. I just go to the market and buy a piece of lamb. It’s no big deal. And with that approach to the next 364 days, sin has no real consequences either.
God knew what He was doing. The problem is not God’s. It’s ours. When we think we have a better way, we leave behind the four-day lesson. We’ll regret it, I’m afraid.
It's just my opinion, but where you see just a bunch of rules, I see God in His infinite wisdom reminding us of His plan for our lives.
I might be mistaken,But I totally get what you are saying here Bjay,I think Blog would agree if serving God in the way you serve him produces this response for you,then by all means continue to do so.
I think it might be possible to get this without a physical attempt to keep the law as well though. In fact a physical attempt absent the spiritual application which you clearly get,would probably do more harm than good.I think this is the point of the whole discussion.That to keep the law is no longer the requirement to produce real faith and relationship with God.That in fact there has been a changing of the requirement,that is less about physical and more about spiritual.
I will end by saying that I was blessed in reading this your latest post,I know that it will stick with me,for some time to come.I'm glad I was here to witness this.Sort of like Saul when he heard Stephen preaching.
Thank God for using you to help me in this way.God bless.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 6:37:07 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I might be mistaken,But I totally get what you are saying here Bjay,I think Blog would agree if serving God in the way you serve him produces this response for you,then by all means continue to do so.
I think it might be possible to get this without a physical attempt to keep the law as well though. In fact a physical attempt absent the spiritual application which you clearly get,would probably do more harm than good.I think this is the point of the whole discussion.That to keep the law is no longer the requirement to produce real faith and relationship with God.That in fact there has been a changing of the requirement,that is less about physical and more about spiritual.
I will end by saying that I was blessed in reading this your latest post,I know that it will stick with me,for some time to come.I'm glad I was here to witness this.Sort of like Saul when he heard Stephen preaching.
Thank God for using you to help me in this way.God bless.
I would most certainly agree with this. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 14, and is the reason why I consider this matter of literal law keeping nothing more than a denominational preference. And one not worth dividing the Church over. Here is the passage:
"5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
(Romans 14)
We in the non-literal Torah camp (NLTC?) get put on the defensive by those of the TC who insist we all should be going to Church on Saturday and observing all the Feasts at the appropriate times (among other things). I think if that were true, Paul would have made that very clear as opposed to telling us we are free to follow our own convictions (but being careful not to condemn ourselves). But even some in the TC do backward hand springs to make Paul's discourse mean something else. And they do that with other scriptures that in their plain reading tell us literal laws of worship have taken a back row seat to the spiritual worship God desires.
I know it's hard to grasp but many of us don't need the literal Festivals to fully appreciate the work of Christ on our behalf. Believe it. Dividing the brethren over this matter is a far worse transgression than what some say is the transgression of not following the literal worship laws of the old covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 7:16:59 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
It turns out it's of little value to talk to people here unless you get right to the point right away and not care too much about being insensitive (Of course I don't mean insensitive in an impolite or sinful way). So my goal is to just get right to the meat as quickly as possible, but one point at a time as you suggest.
To the point:
Some of the misunderstanding also comes from lack of proper historical data.
The woman at the well's opinions go all the way back to the "sins of Jeroboam."
ultimately the samaritans had/have a Torah that has been changed; i.e. in the
addition of another commandment: "Thou shalt worship on Mount Gerizim."
That is what the woman was questioning.
Yes, it makes the story more understandable as to why the woman would say "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
But that information doesn't help or hinder one way or the other the message of the passage--that a day is coming and has now come (the time of Christ's appearance) when neither literal place would be the authorized place of worship, and that the worshipers God is looking for would worship in the new way of 'in Spirit and in Truth' completely removed from any legislated physical place. The Samaritans had no precedant or divine guidance to change literal Torah. Those didn't come until the time of Christ.
The message is clear--it ain't about a literal place anymore, no matter how absolutely required it was before. We can get all that right out of the passage itself. Clear evidence against the 'unchanging, eternal, literal Torah' argument.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Another not so well known fact: The Ark of the Covenant hadn't been in the Temple
500 years prior to Yeshua. Jeremiah had hidden the Ark at another assult on Jerusalem.
Even so, up until the day of Pentacost when the new dwelling place of God was now understood as being the bodies of His people, there's no reason to believe that the literal Temple was still understood as being the meeting place between man and God. In the period of time between the first dispersion and the day of Pentacost (while the ark was lost) they had no knowledge or revelation of a new meeting place outside of the Temple, and what the prophets prophecied. I don't think they understood the significance of the glory of the Lord departing the Temple in Ezekiel's vision and the fact that the ark was not in the Temple anymore from the dispersion onward.
If I'm not mistaken, there is no mention of an ark in the instructions God gave Ezekiel to give to the Israelites on how to construct the Temple after they came back from their exile. I've always thought it interesting that the prophet Jeremiah knew the ark would eventually be lost to history and not be a part of Israel's worship:
"In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD, "men will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made. (Jeremiah 3:16)
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/13/2008 7:25:25 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 8:04:58 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
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I praise YAH for you sunofone that Bjay's last post blest you. That's a selah moment. I know you still do not get it but you see there is a lot to it. I've been extremely busy these days and really only had time to just read the posts that have been posted. Just taking in and picking my time to post. Time and wisdom is very precious to me and I don't like to waste either.
Odeliya, I will try to post a response to your question, I've tried before but experienced some technical problems. The purpose for those seemingly "mundane, non essential to one's salvation" laws have more to do with health and hygiene as far as I understand and more so about being set apart and holy.
Circumcision...their are some medical researchers who say that circumsion helps prevent bacteria and germs from breeding in that particular area of the body and causing complications. Even during intercourse with one's spouse. There are mixed reviews about this but here is one find: "quote:
A recent AAP report stated that circumcision does offer some benefit in preventing urinary tract infections in infants. Circumcision also offers some benefit in preventing penile cancer in adult men. However, this disease is very rare in all men, whether or not they have been circumcised. Circumcision may reduce the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. A man's sexual practices (e.g., if he uses condoms, if he has more than one partner, etc.) has more to do with STD prevention than whether or not he is circumcised."
The dietary laws listed in Leviticus 11, deals with health issues as well due to the fact that pork consumption is hard to digest and is related to a lot of heart related illness. Those animals listed in Leviticus were created to be scavengers and are not considered food at all. In fact in OT and NT times, pigs were used as a toilet believe it or not because they will eat the wastes and excrements! Doctors will tell you if you have heart related problems to cut back on your pork consumption. Dr. Ted Broer has an excellent teaching on this and lists how eating properly can prevent cancer and other physical and mental disorders.
Discharges...dealt with the preventing the spread of communical diseases. Such as small pox, measle, blood contact. There was a lady who posted some time ago her testimony about how she contracted hepatitis unknowingly before getting married without exhibiting in symptoms of this disease. Her and her husband had been following the word of God and abstaining during her monthly purification as a result of this her husband never caught this disease. Her husband of course was checked out and was found to be negative. hey had been trying to have a baby. She was able to be treated and alot of pain was avoided.
Sabbath is a commeration of the culmination of the work YAH did at creation. He rested not because He was tired but because he was satisfied with the work He had done and sought to establish a pattern for us to follow. The fact it is #4 of the 10 commandments and is proceeded with more explanation than any other verse proves it's imprtance. It has spiritual as well as practical importance. Unfortunately, we shrug this off as well.
The fact is, your Bible and your God is very practical. He is concerned about every aspect of our lives. In fact what you or I may shrug off as being literal and not spiritual is very important to God. If He toke time to number the very numbers that are on our head is an attestment to that fact. John says, Beloved I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers. It seems meaningless that Adam would be judge over some fruit or Saul would pay the penalty he did for disobeying God or the unnamed prophet in Kings??? who disobeyed God and was slain by a lion. I'm not insinuating anything...but my point is that God is a detailed God and does things with a purpose in mind.
If we all would learn to discern His voice in the seemly smallest matters, we probably would not have alot of the physical problems and/or heartaches that we have, IMHO.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/15/2008 9:36:29 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 8:51:31 PM
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bjay0801
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Praise Yahweh. All I can say is faith without works is dead. As James said show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works. Nothing but love for everyone no matter what the outcome.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2008 9:21:00 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)
The preceding verses give a clue as to what Paul was talking about. It would be like butting into a conversation at the end of it without getting the beginning or middle. His criticism is with those who say they are doing Torah and living lives that are contrary. It'll be like saying, "I'm married and in love" and still sleeping around with other women. I can wear the ring all day long but if my actions are inconsistent with the covenant I made to my wife...
So now there the issue of circumcision. Which was supposed to a physical reminder of spiritual condition which in this case is circumcision of the heart. The very fact the gentile were circumcised in heart and obeying the Torah was proof that they were on the right track to begin with. It would be a matter of time before they would be circumcised in the flesh and only when they felt ready to. I think Titus is an example of this.
Abraham was saved first when He believed God but was circumcised 24 years later. Much in the same way, we put our faith in Yahshua and receive the circumsion of the heart. You may do all the outward signs of Torah...Sabbath, Feasts, Kosher diet...but be seriously in error on walking in love to your fellow man, mercy and faith. You actually undo the circumcision by ignoring the more weighter matters or breaking the Torah.
This whole chapter had to do with practicing what you preach, in a nutshell.
I know you won't like this answer, Sponge, but this is my little feeble attempt to answer your question. I posted earlier more of the practical benefits of it...of course, medical researchers are not unaminimous on the benefits and there are those who see no medical value at all. Only God knows! This was a token of a covenant in the flesh but you can have the outward and not the spiritual (inward) and be deficient. I don't know if it was to serve as a medical purpose.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2008 1:06:46 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Happy fathers day to Blue, L, Lapi, Mcleod ,Spongie and if it applies to LG, BJay and any other mench who is hanging out here and is a dad ! le’chaim. May God’s Blessings rest on you. Glory be to our Heavenly Father.
quote:
I've been extremely busy these days and really only had time to just read the posts that have been posted. Just taking in and picking my time to post.
No problem, darling friend.We knew you haven’t left – all you dreidls are stilllaying around:) Were can you get better opposite playmates then us here!
Take your time, we always happy to read you. All here are kind of stranded... BJ demands vacation, I am sold into slavery otherwise known as "internship" and Spongie is busy renovating the ..well ,you know what, the same place US economy is currently resides at. Will manage to catch up sooner or later.
I see your points about cleanness, most doctors I think are united on that, physical/ emotional health benefits of the day of rest and "eat less, dammit!" order.That we agree on and can put safely away. But you see, again, Messianic view brought the Torah rules of cleannes, etc to resonable, comfortable level, that all modern people basically accept. It is not obeyed by Messiaincs in a strict way as in it prescribed in Torah.
Glad we agree also that moral aspect of the rules is vital; and literal is of secondary importance. BJ said that literal rules can be dismissed if they jeopardize the moral aspect of the law. He would neglect the literal rule to show love to his wife, if needed.
That is notably important in our debate...Sorry,i will continue later.I am babyitting a few monsters rugrats here.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2008 1:14:31 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3110
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
This was a token of a covenant in the flesh but you can have the outward and not the spiritual (inward) and be deficient. I don't know if it was to serve as a medical purpose.
Who knows :)))
 liberal israel radio show hosts have a standard joke when it comes to some really worthless individuals, like poticians, or similar dirtbags and crooks " his circumcision was botched - they removed the useless piece of flesh from the wrong end of the p-s ":)
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2008 8:58:50 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2279
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Happy fathers day to Blue, L, Lapi, Mcleod ,Spongie and if it applies to LG, BJay and any other mench who is hanging out here and is a dad ! le’chaim. May God’s Blessings rest on you. Glory be to our Heavenly Father.
Greetings,
Thank you!!
May God’s Blessings rest on you also...
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 10:10:10 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)
The preceding verses give a clue as to what Paul was talking about. It would be like butting into a conversation at the end of it without getting the beginning or middle. His criticism is with those who say they are doing Torah and living lives that are contrary. It'll be like saying, "I'm married and in love" and still sleeping around with other women. I can wear the ring all day long but if my actions are inconsistent with the covenant I made to my wife...
So now there the issue of circumcision. Which was supposed to a physical reminder of spiritual condition which in this case is circumcision of the heart. The very fact the gentile were circumcised in heart and obeying the Torah was proof that they were on the right track to begin with. It would be a matter of time before they would be circumcised in the flesh and only when they felt ready to. I think Titus is an example of this.
Abraham was saved first when He believed God but was circumcised 24 years later. Much in the same way, we put our faith in Yahshua and receive the circumsion of the heart. You may do all the outward signs of Torah...Sabbath, Feasts, Kosher diet...but be seriously in error on walking in love to your fellow man, mercy and faith. You actually undo the circumcision by ignoring the more weighter matters or breaking the Torah.
This whole chapter had to do with practicing what you preach, in a nutshell.
I know you won't like this answer, Sponge, but this is my little feeble attempt to answer your question. I posted earlier more of the practical benefits of it...of course, medical researchers are not unaminimous on the benefits and there are those who see no medical value at all. Only God knows! This was a token of a covenant in the flesh but you can have the outward and not the spiritual (inward) and be deficient. I don't know if it was to serve as a medical purpose.
This is all wonderful, but let's not forget why it came up. Paul's illustration in Romans 2 shows that not being circucised according to the law did not qualify one as a lawbreaker. He calls the one who doesn't keep the moral laws the lawbreaker, not the one who doesn't get circumcised.
I've been saying NT references to law keeping, keeping God's commands, etc. do not include the OT laws and regulations of worship. I cited this Romans 2 passage as evidence of that. Circumcision, as absolutely required as it may have once been, is no longer required for either salvation or as a way to please God after salvation. The requirements of that law have been fulfilled once and for all by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Just another example of how a literal law gets satisfied in the eyes of God apart from it's literal fulfillment, and so thoroughly and completely and ongoing that the literal can now be set aside.
Animal sacrifice for sin is the other glaring example of how the requirements of a literal law get satisfied once and for all apart from it's literal requirement, and so thoroughly that the literal passes away. The law doesn't pass away, it's old way of being literally fulfilled does. These are clear evidences and precedants for a concept that many law keepers say cannot happen--that the requirments of a law can be fulfilled (not abolished) one time and forever so that you no longer have to obey it literally.
And all of this 'fulfillment' is done through believing because believing is what brings the Holy Spirit into a person's body. That is the 'work' that secures the fulfilling of the laws of worship in the new way of the Holy Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code, and which releases us from the literal requirements of those laws.
This truth is plainly seen in the examples of animal sacrifice for sin, and literal circumcision. Animal sacrifice for sin is not coming back, and the circumcision Paul says is a big nothing in the NT is clearly Mosaic circumcision, not Rabbinical. All that I've said here about these two things is why it is so important for the literal law keeper to twist meanings and understandings to make those two things remain as literal and unchanging. To accept these as having legitimately passed away as literal effectively cuts the ground from under all of the common arguments for continuing the literal OT laws of worship. That is why it is so important for the literal law indoctrination to develop doctrines that preserve both of those things. Don't be fooled!
You can argue for the continuation of those things. You just need better arguments to do so. And in my opinion you would do well to just accept them as personal and denominational preferences. The thing you are most certainly entitled to do, just as long as you don't impress your convictions on the rest of us in an ungodly or impolite way. Your opinions and experiences are respected and appreciated, but criticism that the Chruch has failed and is being disobedient is not.
And I think with the discussion where it is--and that being even law keepers concede to not keeping the letter of the law--we can progress logically and honestly into why this truly is just a denominational argument and not a doctrinal one.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 11:50:43 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Happy fathers day to Blue, L, Lapi, Mcleod ,Spongie and if it applies to LG, BJay and any other mench who is hanging out here and is a dad ! le’chaim. May God’s Blessings rest on you. Glory be to our Heavenly Father.
My most sincere thanks.
You may be the only one that gave me these wishes. lol.
I spent the day mowing our place, the m-i-l's place.
Then I took a break as old timers tend to do. Then,
I fired up again and mowed the church property.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 12:00:07 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Thanks, Odeliya! God bless you and all the father's in blogland happy belated father's day!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 2:21:36 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
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The Scripture are in the Text, and Scripture does not lie. Some Scripture is prophetic. If God has said it, it will come to pass. Hence, these Scripture should be evaluated for their prophetic significance, meaning, and impact on believer today. When these Scripture are put together line upon line, what is the outcome. Well, let’s take a look. Do be diligent to see if I am in error if you must because I do not wish to spread lies.
1.Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Some people say that the law is passed away because Christ fulfilled the law completely by His death at the cross. Jesus no longer has anything else to fulfill. Paul put an end to this debate by establishing that the saints were under grace. Things like Sabbath observance and Holy Days had been done away with and replace by a new torah.
2.Isaiah 66:22-24
22"For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,
"So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
24"And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Now this contradicts what some say about the Sabbath being erased and no longer needs to be observed. In His prophetic look into eternity, Isaiah sees saints to include gentiles following the practices of Sabbath and Holy Days. These happenings are post crucifixion of Christ. How are the Holy Days and Holy Convocations being observed in heaven, if they are done away with now on Earth.
3.Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Now Zechariah is given a prophetic glimpse into eternity of the Millennium reign. He witnesses the people celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles. This also is also post crucifixion of Christ. If the law is fulfilled, why are these events taking place. All theof remaining people are celebrating a Holy Day.
4.Daniel 7:21-25
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Some horn has an interest for fighting against the saints. What is one of the means that He fights against the saints? He changes the times and laws of God. He prevails against the saints by taking away their truth and giving them lies that they receive and accept.
5.Daniel 8:9-14
9And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.
13Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"
14And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; F24 then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."
This horn continues its assault against the saints. It tramples the truth of God and wars against His people. He wars against saints not just with a sword; but in the realm of controlling the saints religion, ideology, and prospective. The following prophetic signs are given:
1.It changes the times and laws of the saints
2.It persecutes the saints who do accept its religion
3.It tramples the truth by trying to kill
4.It destroys the temple and stops the sacrifices
5.It judges Israel for their unbelief in Christ and transgression
6.It exalts itself to the same authority of Jesus
7.It holds influence and control over the saints.
A part of me wants to deviate for another topic. The Spirit tells me that the saints have also been and are judge for their transgressions; just like the first covenant saints were judge for transgressing and rejecting God's truth. However, I will continue with the topic for now, that is another study for me.
This horn acts after the crucifixion of Christ. It directs its actions toward natural Jews first in destroying the Jew's rebellions. Then it eventually attacks the saints, however, not just by violence, but by deception and guile also. It attempts to envelope the saints into its religion system of pagan and created customs.
There are many more Scripture from the Prophets that point to prophetic events that deal with the continuation of His Sabbaths and Holy Days post Christ and into eternity. However, we miss and ignore the Prophets. Why, because we threw them away also. You see Jesus connected something to the Prophets in Matt 5:17, it was the Torah. Since we threw Torah away, we had no choice but to throw the Prophets away; otherwise, how could we honestly say that Paul was only talking about one of them when Jesus connected their passing away together. The Scripture of the Prophets still tell of events of post Christ resurrection. Hence if the Prophets words as inspired by God have not passed away, then how can we say the Torah has passed away.
Have we accepted the horn’s religion and has he stolen our religion?
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 3:00:45 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Manichunter, it seems to me that the second Adam's bride has been duped by the serpent again. We say Sabbath is done away but, Christ in His end-time discourse in Matthew 24 advised His disciples to pray that their flight be not on the Sabbath...if Sabbath was everyday as we preach why would we bother to pray that our flight be not on the Sabbath? Or worse if it's done away...then Messiah gave His disciples very bad advise according to popular theology!
The spirit of anti-Messiah has been working all to well I'm afraid...but it is high time for the voice of those preaching Torah to be heard.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 3:08:06 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5591
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Manichunter, it seems to me that the second Adam's bride has been duped by the serpent again. We say Sabbath is done away but, Christ in His end-time discourse in Matthew 24 advised His disciples to pray that their flight be not on the Sabbath...if Sabbath was everyday as we preach why would we bother to pray that our flight be not on the Sabbath? Or worse if it's done away...then Messiah gave His disciples very bad advise according to popular theology!
The spirit of anti-Messiah has been working all to well I'm afraid...but it is high time for the voice of those preaching Torah to be heard.
And the "dupe" of Replacement Theology continues to
be a part of the filter we look at things even if we are
unaware of it.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 3:19:37 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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It's amazing how "fulfilled" and Replacement Theology forces us to see plain scripture as not meaning what it say's and allegoricalizing it to fit our theology. We mock those of us try to see the Bible Hebraically however, when we study the Bible Hebraically it actually becomes a whole lot clearer.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 4:05:20 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
1.Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Reread the passage. Much more than just a jot or tittle has in fact passed away from the law. So the burden is on you to explain why heaven and earth are still here. Unless you want to concede that the other condition that had to be met in order for so much as as jot or tiddle to disappear from the law has occurred (the dreaded 'f' word). You are the one who has some explaining to do. The floor is yours. Don't blow this off. I desire an explanation that everyone else seems to not want to give, though I've asked repeatedly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
Some people say that the law is passed away because Christ fulfilled the law completely by His death at the cross. Jesus no longer has anything else to fulfill. Paul put an end to this debate by establishing that the saints were under grace. Things like Sabbath observance and Holy Days had been done away with and replace by a new torah.
Yes, a new and deeper and more meaningful understanding of Torah, just as Jesus's sacrifice, and circumcision of the heart are different and more meaningful than just literal Torah of old. I'm bringing it up again, because nobody seems to want to acknowledge the clear evidence we can all see that literal Torah has been fleshed out (bad choice of words, I know) into it's more meaningful non-literal form in regard to these two things.
Jesus fulfilled the lawful requirements for being in fellowship with God. Following literal laws is how one used to draw near to God. If you did not obey them you were cut off. The duty and burden for staying in God (not just salvation) was completely on the shoulders of the person (thus the occassion for boasting). But now in the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit all the requirements for drawing near to God are fulfilled for us. How can going to church on Satuday bring you closer than the Holy Spirit has already made you in Christ?
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
... 2.Isaiah 66:22-24
22"For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,
"So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
How else do you expect God to reckon the passing of time to ancient Israel? And truthfully, there's no reason to think worship of God could not come back to the pattern of the old law. But it's simply not a matter of law anymore. And there's also no reason these could not find a 'less than literal' spiritual fulfillment in the age to come. Why is that so unreasonable? It's already happened now. It happened for animal sacrifice for sin and circumcision. The precedant given in the NT by people who knew the prophecies very well is for us to now understand these things in a more figurative way.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
... 24"And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Now this contradicts what some say about the Sabbath being erased and no longer needs to be observed. In His prophetic look into eternity, Isaiah sees saints to include gentiles following the practices of Sabbath and Holy Days. These happenings are post crucifixion of Christ. How are the Holy Days and Holy Convocations being observed in heaven, if they are done away with now on Earth.
Easy. In there new spiritual fulfillment (like animal sacrifice and circumcision). Christ is the essence of keeping of these things.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
3.Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Now Zechariah is given a prophetic glimpse into eternity of the Millennium reign. He witnesses the people celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles. This also is also post crucifixion of Christ. If the law is fulfilled, why are these events taking place. All theof remaining people are celebrating a Holy Day.
This is easy to understand that at that time all will be tabernacled in Christ. The true and complete spiritual fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles will be at this time. It's easy to see the possibility that the prophet is speaking of this time figuratively. Especially, as I said, the NT writers are the ones who have laid down the precedant for us to understand literal OT things in their truer spiritual sense.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
4.Daniel 7:21-25
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Some horn has an interest for fighting against the saints. What is one of the means that He fights against the saints? He changes the times and laws of God. He prevails against the saints by taking away their truth and giving them lies that they receive and accept.
5.Daniel 8:9-14
9And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.
13Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"
14And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; F24 then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."
This horn continues its assault against the saints. It tramples the truth of God and wars against His people. He wars against saints not just with a sword; but in the realm of controlling the saints religion, ideology, and prospective. The following prophetic signs are given:
1.It changes the times and laws of the saints
2.It persecutes the saints who do accept its religion
3.It tramples the truth by trying to kill
4.It destroys the temple and stops the sacrifices
5.It judges Israel for their unbelief in Christ and transgression
6.It exalts itself to the same authority of Jesus
7.It holds influence and control over the saints.
A part of me wants to deviate for another topic. The Spirit tells me that the saints have also been and are judge for their transgressions; just like the first covenant saints were judge for transgressing and rejecting God's truth. However, I will continue with the topic for now, that is another study for me.
This horn acts after the crucifixion of Christ. It directs its actions toward natural Jews first in destroying the Jew's rebellions. Then it eventually attacks the saints, however, not just by violence, but by deception and guile also. It attempts to envelope the saints into its religion system of pagan and created customs.
There are many more Scripture from the Prophets that point to prophetic events that deal with the continuation of His Sabbaths and Holy Days post Christ and into eternity. However, we miss and ignore the Prophets. Why, because we threw them away also. You see Jesus connected something to the Prophets in Matt 5:17, it was the Torah. Since we threw Torah away, we had no choice but to throw the Prophets away; otherwise, how could we honestly say that Paul was only talking about one of them when Jesus connected their passing away together. The Scripture of the Prophets still tell of events of post Christ resurrection. Hence if the Prophets words as inspired by God have not passed away, then how can we say the Torah has passed away.
Have we accepted the horn’s religion and has he stolen our religion?
So the anti-christ has come already? (And He was/is Constantine?) Feel free to elaborate.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/16/2008 4:16:09 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/16/2008 4:17:21 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 848
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Manichunter, it seems to me that the second Adam's bride has been duped by the serpent again. We say Sabbath is done away but, Christ in His end-time discourse in Matthew 24 advised His disciples to pray that their flight be not on the Sabbath...if Sabbath was everyday as we preach why would we bother to pray that our flight be not on the Sabbath? Or worse if it's done away...then Messiah gave His disciples very bad advise according to popular theology!
The spirit of anti-Messiah has been working all to well I'm afraid...but it is high time for the voice of those preaching Torah to be heard.
And the "dupe" of Replacement Theology continues to
be a part of the filter we look at things even if we are
unaware of it.
Why don't you start a thread on this? Nobody seems to understand in either camp that the only thing that replaced literal Israel was the Body of Jesus Christ, and that we in turn are joined to Him, not the natural nation of Jews. Jesus is the only true servant and nation of God, and we who believe make up the multitude of that nation. Both Jew and Gentile alike must abandon their old standing before God and enter into the standing one has when they enter into the Body and nation of Christ.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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