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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:54:11 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...I was doing some more reading last night in Numbers, here's a point I didn't really consider. The Feast of YHWH, especially the pilgrim, solemn feasts centered around the Temple (or the place where YAH placed His name) and Jerusalem. So whether these feast are "mandatory" right now would probably be stretching it.
I think the scriptures confirm what you are saying.
'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies for bringing offerings made to the LORD by fire... (Lev. 23:37)
The cycle of festival worship was the structure put in place by God for the presentation of sacrifices. The sacrifices were the focus and purpose of the literal festivals. Without the Temple and the sacrifices you lose the primary purpose of the literal festival cycle that Leviticus says it was put in place to serve.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...in light of the pagan holidays, if we can celebrate something with pagan roots, painted Christian, why not celebrate something that it is God breath and has very important prophetic markings.
I have no problem with this. But I don't think it's really worth the trouble of creating divisions over. We are so far removed from the pattern of worship in the OT (which isn't surprising since the Temple went away), and what Easter eggs mean that it is pointless to try to bring the church back to the timetable of the OT, which in my opinion, has no intrinsic value or power anyway.
My biggest opposition to it is for too many Messianics, abandoning church culture and tradition means adopting Jewish culture and tradition. And I think that's a direct result of a misguided understanding of who/ what we've been grafted into as believers. And not to mention the work of over zealous Jews who can't accept the passing of literal Torah.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I'd say that they are missing out still and that "communion" is nothing more than a water down Pesach.
Why doesn't the fact that it's the bread and wine, which have no place whatsoever in a true Mosaic Passover, that Christ tells us to use to commemorate His infinately more important work on the cross, mean anything to you? Isn't it fair to say you're allowing an unfair bias against the Catholic Church blind you to the plain instuctions of Jesus in the gospels (and which Paul later confirms)?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
If you
can keep "communion" in remembrance of Messiah, you can keep the feast out of joyfulness of heart in commenmoration of the Red Sea deliverance and more importantly the death, burial and resurrection of your Savior. I still say the Feast are critical to understanding end-time events and that they are God's timetable and appointed times.
You don't need to literally act them out to understand them. I have a very good grasp of the meanings of the Festivals and Sabbaths (well enough to teach someone about them) and I don't adhere to them literally in any way shape or form.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:07:19 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
It the law was done away with and Christ fulfilled the law...
This is too broad of a question and fails miserably to properly represent the 'non literal Torah' view I know we're all guilty at one time or another of unfairly sizing up the opposing viewpoint with broad generalities, but you need to be more specific by what you mean by 'done away with'
Yes, pretty please, Mani, and give the more specific definition of the Law while you are at it, so I e know exactly what you mean by law ,in your context.
Greetings,
quote:
It the law was done away with and Christ fulfilled the law, why did the Holy Spirit come on the Day of Pentecost. Did God forget He was not to use a first covenant Holy Day within His new covenant?
It looks he meant IF the law was done away with….
The rest is I believe is Jesus ascended before Pentecost and sent the HS according to a (Spring) feast day; which was supposed to be abolished.
In your O…..In other words why did He choose that day...a ceremonial day, to cause confusion or to create division?
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 6/22/2008 1:05:11 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:10:30 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Hey I just had a though, if we are indeed Israel whether through birth or engraftment, if Torah is required for them....
Well, with the small variations in theological flavors i would say we all agree that Israel of God is a new nation - nation born of the Holy Spirit. All who are born from HS are in it. That is also the church , the Bride of Christ- precisely consists of all who are born of the Spirit. From the creation of the world God started to build that church.
quote:
Much like a foreigner who comes to the US, becomes a citizens and is granted full rights and priveleges and is considered "American." You have to adhere to the laws of the land of your citizenry.
Agreed. And it comes with rights and responsibilities. I don’t have to worry about how to chose between 2 idiots in november and you .. God bless you richly, don’t have to worry about tons of stuff
Now about here we part ways, because:
the absence of crooks and unimaginably high real estate in Jerusalem area (don’t even try touching Yafo, that will give you a heart attack, something the size of a bathroom cost 1.5 gazzilion euro) is not the only perks of being the citizens of New Israel, it also means we are not subject to the same legislature and rules as Old Israel was.
We own the new passport, which I believe doesnt equate us with old Israelites in terms of laws we need to obey. Some were given to them only , and we are not them.See, some , (just some I've seen,not creating trouble here) Messianics try to flirt with modern Judaism, which is pointless first of all, plus its not the same thing that real True Judaism of Old was.It only looks the same but in reality is a different thing , just like the husband my dear aunt Rivka thought she was marrying and the real mamzer as she, later in the marriage discovered, he turned out to be ;)!
True words of God that old covenant was built on and what people did to it is a sad story to tell
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 3:55:02 PM
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manichunter
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What I am saying is that the entire torah was a shadow of real spiritual things........... I gave a few examples in my previous post of how natural expectations became spiritual. We fight and argue over the application and abolishment of the torah when it has not went anywhere but ascended in revelation that it to is spiritual.......
Some say the torah has been completely abolish and fulfilled, hence no one is accountable to it. However, now the entertaining of the same sins like adultery is now sin. Hence the torah has been elevated beyond our nature coducts and actions in the flesh, but now the soul is accountable for its thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and identifications. God know chastises us according to our motives and intentions.
Some say the torah has not been fulfilled and abolished, hence we are still accountable for following the torah in the same manner of the letter. Not so, for the one that the torah shadowed has come. Now the kingdom is spiritual and the application of the kingdom is spiritual. Now those that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. The torah is made spiritual as well because the expectation of holiness from the saints as disciples and brides of Jesus.
< Message edited by manichunter -- 6/22/2008 4:14:50 PM >
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:15:59 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
It the law was done away with and Christ fulfilled the law, why did the Holy Spirit come on the Day of Pentecost. Did God forget He was not to use a first covenant Holy Day within His new covenant?
It looks he meant IF the law was done away with….
The rest is I believe is Jesus ascended before Pentecost and sent the HS according to a (Spring) feast day; which was supposed to be abolished.
The giving of the Holy Spirit at that time was the fulfillment of that feast. What is it you don't get? Do you think one has to keep the feast to get the Holy Spirit? Everyone who believes and is sealed with the Holy Spirit has 'kept' the feasts. Just like the command to be circumcised was fulfilled for me through the giving of the Holy Spirit, so also the requirements of the feasts have been satisfied by the giving of the Holy Spirit, and everyone who believes has the Holy Spirit. Everyone who has the Holy Spirit has satisfied the requirements for acceptable worship and acceptance by God. The very thing the OT laws of worship sought to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
In your O…..In other words why did He choose that day...a ceremonial day, to cause confusion or to create division?
You know the answer to that. He fulfilled that feast forever on that day for everyone who believes. What's so strange about that?
How is keeping the feast cycle ourselves after Christ fulfilled it and accomplished the more important things those feasts represented help the fact that Christ fulfilled it? Does it need to be continually fulfilled if Christ fulfilled it's true purpose once and for all? Because of Christ's work, the literal is not required anymore. If the feast cycle is fulfilled once and for all is it really necessary to be careful to continue to do it, and on the exact days it used to be kept?
If you feel compelled to continue to keep the literal feast cycle until the redemption of our bodies, then so be it. But I feel no compulsion whatsoever. The rest of human history for me is not contingent on whether I continue in the literal feasts or not. They were pictures and illustrations of the work Christ would later do on my behalf. That work is now complete. My fulfillment of those requirements is not needed anymore.
I'm convinced of a far better and pleasing duty that I must fulfill while I'm waiting for Him to return. And it isn't what day of the week I should go to Church on.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/22/2008 9:22:10 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:34:45 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I pose a question:
What is it that "The Law" is most useful for?
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:36:34 PM
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LBolt
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Fulfilled doesn't mean "done away with." In various places it means- to fully preach. Because you hate hebraics and reject it's value, you fail to comprehend context.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 9:56:55 PM
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bjay0801
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quote:
I pose a question:
What is it that "The Law" is most useful for?
Ro 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid *. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:26:11 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 224
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
quote:
I pose a question:
What is it that "The Law" is most useful for?
Ro 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid *. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
I'd like to hear you or others expand upon that passage.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:35:37 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
What I am saying is that the entire torah was a shadow of real spiritual things...........
yeap. However the intent, or spirit of the law is Love,which can not possibly be definined by the set of literal rules. Only by indwelling of the Holy Spirit do we become capable of true Charity that is the final goal of the Law – to show us how uncapable we are to fulfill and obey the intent of the Law on our own efforts.
Torah also served the good purpose to separate Jews from pagans , by laws of circumcision, etc. Back then that is... I love reading how Paul – sweet ,kind jewish boy -goes to incredible length to show how we are all the same, we are all brothers ,of the same family ,now. Once a pastor of the church I visited addressed me as "jewish sister,messianic believer.." He meant well, but I really wanted to administer a nice fist punch right there  , i want to be known as a chirstian, i hate that artificial separation...
I yet to hear a convincing explanation why should I act messianic-style. Let alone why should my gentile brothers and sisters do it. (No disrespect to MC - more power to them. I am talkign about myself and other christians here..)
quote:
Now the kingdom is spiritual and the application of the kingdom is spiritual. Now those that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth . Yes, that is what i mentioned to L - we are citizens of Spiritual kidgdom. Comes with different set of rules. I am very open to constructive criticism, mani, so go ahead
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 10:44:11 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Fulfilled doesn't mean "done away with." In various places it means- to fully preach. Because you hate hebraics and reject it's value, you fail to comprehend context.
You are using a different understanding of 'fulfill' to defend the continuation of literal Torah. But whatever the definition, the fulfillment of the law is still the only thing that Jesus said can happen in the time before heaven and earth pass away before anything can pass away from the law.
How does the Hebraic understanding of 'fulfill' not qualify as the fulfillment of the law that Jesus said must happen before anything can change in literal Torah between now and the end of heaven and earth?
Think about this carefully. We know the fulfillment has occurred because much more than just a jot or tittle has passed from the law. Yet the fulfillment you defend doesn't allow for a change in the law. While Jesus says the fulfillment of the law does allow for a change in Torah. I don't get it. Explain.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/22/2008 10:51:42 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 11:09:36 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
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Blog, my friend, you don't have the slightest clue about jots and tittles and I say that with all due respect. Explain Matt. 26:29, Mark 14:25-26 and Luke 22:18 in light of "fulfilled"
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/23/2008 8:45:14 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/22/2008 11:35:01 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
It the law was done away with and Christ fulfilled the law, why did the Holy Spirit come on the Day of Pentecost. Did God forget He was not to use a first covenant Holy Day within His new covenant?
It looks he meant IF the law was done away with….
The rest is I believe is Jesus ascended before Pentecost and sent the HS according to a (Spring) feast day; which was supposed to be abolished.
quote:
The giving of the Holy Spirit at that time was the fulfillment of that feast.
How was it fullfilled......Was it Literal or Spiritual?
…..For example: the resurrection of Lazarus was literal because Jesus was there in the flesh…..At Pentecost Jesus was not literally present at the Giving of the HS because that is what He prophesied to his disciples’; and only 120 out of 500 showed up for the event.
quote:
What is it you don't get?
Not much, but only that which I am unwilling to ask for.
quote:
Do you think one has to keep the feast to get the Holy Spirit?
Irrelevant!
They didn’t believe that in the OT or the NT.
quote:
Everyone who believes and is sealed with the Holy Spirit has 'kept' the feasts.
How does one know that they are sealed?
quote:
Just like the command to be circumcised was fulfilled for me through the giving of the Holy Spirit, so also the requirements of the feasts have been satisfied by the giving of the Holy Spirit,
And the Bible says that the helper only speaks what he hears, and that hearing comes from the word of God, so if He fulfilled the circumcised, then why wouldn't He speak of it?
quote:
and everyone who believes has the Holy Spirit.
And where is this written?
As I recall from the scriptures there are those (Olam Haba) seen in part in Mark 9:38-39 and that was before the HS was even given.
quote:
Everyone who has the Holy Spirit has satisfied the requirements for acceptable worship and acceptance by God. The very thing the OT laws of worship sought to do.
Not exactly, as was mentioned in post #: 3644 ....Perhaps a good going over of the truth of Ex 20:19 is in order
EX 20:19
Then they said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die."
You see....God watches over His word, that request was granted and they no longer heard from God but though Moses who reiterated the Law of God to the children of Israel or leased it to the vinedressers as mentioned below, and He God went into a far country (which means He granted that request in Ex 20:19)
Now that meaning seen in Ex 20 is spoken By Jesus in a parable in Matt 21:33
"Hear another parable:
There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.
So, I am not sure what you mean by what the OT laws of worship sought to do….I mean it seems it was already known that the very thing the OT law sought to do was not worship.... as Moses said in
Deut 18:15-19
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, ...........saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.'
17 And the Lord said to me: 'What they have spoken is good.
18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
....So again the helper only speaks what he hears, and that hearing comes from the word of God, and the saying....””whoever will not hear”” My words ..... is not limited to the OT Jews, ….that requirement taken from Deut 18:19 actually started when Jesus came.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
In your O…..In other words why did He choose that day...a ceremonial day, to cause confusion or to create division?
quote:
You know the answer to that. He fulfilled that feast forever on that day for everyone who believes. What's so strange about that?
quote:
How is keeping the feast cycle ourselves after Christ fulfilled it and accomplished the more important things those feasts represented help the fact that Christ fulfilled it?
As was mentioned above, Jesus was already resurrected and He was not there in the upper room, the fulfillment was by Faith which is the Spiritual side..... Or as Jesus said to them...”to wait”….for….the promise of the Father,
So keeping it in like manner must have something to do with Faith, not salvation!!
quote:
Does it need to be continually fulfilled if Christ fulfilled its true purpose once and for all? Because of Christ's work, the literal is not required anymore.
That’s a good question,
Because there are those with little Faith and some with much Faith and the Bible tells us that it is impossible to please God without Faith.
For example; believing in Christmas in the guise of a Santa Clause, one should inquire of themselves and ask themselves…. when was the last time that Santa a man gave them everything they asked for.
So personally Faith in a Santa as a giver of gifts is no less then faith in a fallen man which always brought disappointment.
At least it did in this house when I was young…. Santa must have run out of money or had no room in the sled for the things I asked for.
quote:
If the feast cycle is fulfilled once and for all is it really necessary to be careful to continue to do it,
Everyday!
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and on the exact days it used to be kept?
Why not?
quote:
If you feel compelled to continue to keep the literal feast cycle until the redemption of our bodies, then so be it. But I feel no compulsion whatsoever.
We all make our own choices and if that is how you feel then why are you telling me?
quote:
The rest of human history for me is not contingent on whether I continue in the literal feasts or not.
And if we read in the scriptures many of the genealogies’ came to an abrupt end by such notions.
quote:
They were pictures and illustrations of the work Christ would later do on my behalf. That work is now complete.
True, the just shall live by Faith!
quote:
My fulfillment of those requirements is not needed anymore. quote:
I'm convinced of a far better and pleasing duty that I must fulfill while I'm waiting for Him to return. And it isn't what day of the week I should go to Church on.
Truthfully, in like manner there should be no legal requirement to go Church either,
Question…
….Why do we go to Church?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 12:38:16 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Blog, my friend, you don't have the slightest clue about jots and tittles and I say that with all due respect.
The NIV does a good job of doing much more than just giving us a clue as to what a 'jot' and a 'tittle' means in the passage.
"...not the smallest letter (jot), not the least stroke of a pen (tittle)..." (Matthew 5:18)
In fact, when we say, "that hasn't changed one iota", we are saying it hasn't changed by so much as a jot. And when we say, "make sure you dot every 'i' and cross every 't'" we are making reference to tittles.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Explain Matt. 26:29, Mark 114:25-26 and Luke 22:18 in light of "fulfilled"
Who said there wasn't going to be eating and drinking in the age to come? Does eating and drinking in the age to come have to be a Passover observance?
"...Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
15When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, "Blessed is the man who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God."
16Jesus replied: "A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.'
18"But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.'
19"Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.'
20"Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.'
21"The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.'
22" 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.'
23"Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. 24I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.' " (Luke 14:12-24)
There's no reason to think that Jesus was referring exclusively to a formal Passover in accordance with the law in the passages you referenced. But these passages I've cited do make reference to a great banquet in the age to come.
How much of this is literal and how much is figurative, I don't know ('everthing is now ready' suggests a more figurative interpretation). But there's no reason to use Jesus's statements in the passages you cited as a defense for a literal Passover observance in the age to come. But it's easy to connect what He said to His disciples and this great banquet. A banquet which doesn't give the sense of it being a formal Passover observance.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/23/2008 12:46:25 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 8:42:31 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Jots and tittles is a topic for another thread and believe you means this doesn't even scratch the surface of it's actually saying.
If it's full meaning can be directly connected to the subject of law keeping then I see no reason why it can't be included in this thread. The important thing about the Matthew 5 passage is that we understand from the passage that 'fufill' means a change in Torah is now possible--that Jesus said only the fulfillment of the law would allow even the smallest change in the law. You see 'fulfill' as a defense for an unchanging Torah. That understanding doesn't jive with what Jesus says in the passage itself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I brought up the above scriptures only to prove that Passover is not all though way fulfill. The cup of Praise or Hallel has yet to be drunk. I believe that was the last cup...someone correct me if I wrong.
It may be interesting, but God didn't see fit to include it in either the Old or New Testaments. It's no mystery to me that God uses the traditions that the Jews developed to speak to them. But since it isn't a part of any inspired writitng it makes it a curious thing to me, not necessarily inspired doctrine, and apparently, doctrine that God didn't think I'd need. Personally, I cringe at accepting everything the Jews say and do simply because they are Jews. I can explain more if you're interested.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
He 'Blog if I don't address everything in a long post, it probably because I tend to skim. 
You have a wonderful patient and methodical approach to posting where you list each line you want to refute/ agree with along with your explanation. I tend to lazy out and respond to the post as a whole. So maybe I make you repeat yourself... sorry.
That's fine. I need more practice making my posts shorter and to the point.
And LGypsy, I'm not ignoring your questions. Pressed for time right now...
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/23/2008 8:48:56 AM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 8:49:39 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
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My point is that all is not fulfilled yet.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 10:21:49 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
My point is that all is not fulfilled yet.
The fulfillment that Jesus speaks of has occurred. How do we know? Because the law has indeed changed and yet heaven and earth are still here. Which means the one thing Jesus said had to occur before the least letter of the law could pass from the law (between now and the end of heaven and earth) has occurred--the fulfillment of the law. It's simple logic.
But it is true that things are still falling in to place according to the fulfillment of the law wrought at the cross. My point being, it is not impossible to accept the fact that literal Torah has changed because the condition Jesus said must be met in order for that to happen (while heaven and earth are still in existence) has indeed happened.
There is no legitimate defense left for the argument that Torah cannot be changed now.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 10:26:33 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Because you hate hebraics and reject it's value, you fail to comprehend context.
Spongie does, you think ? hmm I didn’t get such impression.He doesn’t hate Hebraic stuff – well maybe in a sense that my dad hates lettuce, swimming shorts, romantic comedies etc. – they are fine and great as long as they are not forced on him to be a user of it. Others can do them all they want..:)
quote:
Personally, I cringe at accepting everything the Jews say and do simply because they are Jews.
Yes, there are aplenty of pseudo-pious, "overly-soficsticating-the-plain-teachings-way-beyond measure to enhance their sense of self importancy" jews. This is definitely were Hebraic overdose oftenstimes translates into something undesirable and hurts the main cause.
But for every bunch of those there is about one –one and a half jew what made out of decent material. Those that love God and brethren, minus secretive convoluted theologies and traditions of men – they see right thru them. Like Paul.
.
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Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 11:41:54 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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Has anyone ever taken into consideration that our world will never be the same again since Christ's life, death and resurrection?
Even those who are not "Christians" have more information than the OT world ever did. Whether Jesus has been accepted as a personal savior or not, the information is still available.
Reading the OT it doesn't take much to see how primitive their view of "God" was. So much so that when Jesus came most of them did not know how to react at all, so they rejected Christ.
As for the fulfillment of the law Jesus fulfilled the law by NEVER having broken it. Something that had NEVER been done before. Jesus observed the Sabbath and kept it Holy, just not the way it had been "interpreted" by the Jewish world. That in itself is one example of him "fulfilling" the Law.
Now it is my understanding that since Jesus fulfilled the Law by never having broken it was fulfilled in that way too.
Even now we cannot view the Law as useless, but that doesn't mean we are to follow it. God must have left the Law recorded for us to view, read and study for a reason.
I just do not see that reason as being so we can follow it.
If we were to follow the Law (of the Old Testament) don't you think that God would have ensured we have a temple to continue making sacrifices on?
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 12:00:14 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
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quote:
Jesus observed the Sabbath and kept it Holy, just not the way it had been "interpreted" by the Jewish world. FSB
Amen!
We are under the Melchizedek order under the Messiah. YHWH original intent was for all Israel to be kings and priests-- Exo. 19:5-6, Revealtion and I Peter...
The TaNaKH was read in the synagogues every Sabbath according to Acts 15:21 and other places. The only had the TaNaKH as the scriptures. It was the foundation for exposition and expounding. From it they proved that Christ is Messiah, found it profitable for reproof, correction in righteousness...
quote:
If we were to follow the Law (of the Old Testament) don't you think that God would have ensured we have a temple to continue making sacrifices on?
Scripture must needs to be fulfilled my friend. See Dan. 9:1-3; 25-27.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/23/2008 12:22:05 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 1:43:42 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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LBolt,
I see it as this God made the days not satan. As the Psalmist 118:24 wrote and Mr. Schuller would repeat all the time. "This is the day the Lord hath made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.
I like this scripture which is found in Psalm 96 1-3; Sing unto the Lord a new song sing to the Lord, all the earth.Sing to the Lord, praise his name proclaim his salvation day after day. Decxlare his glory among the nations his marvelous deeds among all of his peoples.
Notice it states day after day. The problem with some getting tangle up on certian days that allows the evil one win because you only will consider God on one day and possible skip him the rest of the week. Where I would say that every breath of our lives should be giving glory and honor to the King. By our actions towards others and just how we live our lives. When we show respect to someone we have shown respect to God the Almighty Creator of the seen and unseen
I forgot to put your quote in sorry  It was in regards to your stating that pagens were taking over days. that we should have not get caught up on pagan days. Which again I will state Decemberber 25 was created by God and how you handle that day is between God and you. Thus again no one needs to judge for I know that God can do that with balance scales.
< Message edited by mcleod -- 6/23/2008 2:08:31 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:36:52 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
The giving of the Holy Spirit at that time was the fulfillment of that feast.
How was it fullfilled......Was it Literal or Spiritual?
The Feast was fulfilled literally in regard to it's spiritual truth, and spiritually in regard to it's literal truth. Understand?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Everyone who believes and is sealed with the Holy Spirit has 'kept' the feasts.
How does one know that they are sealed?
The presence of the Holy Spirit is self-evident in a person. The person who believes and the person who loves is the person with the Holy Spirit within them. Those who fufill the two duties of man (believing and loving) show that they know Him and are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
"...this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (1 John 3:23-24)
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Just like the command to be circumcised was fulfilled for me through the giving of the Holy Spirit, so also the requirements of the feasts have been satisfied by the giving of the Holy Spirit,
And the Bible says that the helper only speaks what he hears, and that hearing comes from the word of God, so if He fulfilled the circumcised, then why wouldn't He speak of it?
Do I have to list all the scriptures again where Paul was speaking through the Holy Spirit explaining how literal circucmcision counts for nothing?
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
and everyone who believes has the Holy Spirit.
And where is this written?
As I recall from the scriptures there are those (Olam Haba) seen in part in Mark 9:38-39 and that was before the HS was even given.
"... you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession..." (Eph. 1:13-14)
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Everyone who has the Holy Spirit has satisfied the requirements for acceptable worship and acceptance by God. The very thing the OT laws of worship sought to do.
Not exactly, as was mentioned in post #: 3644 ....Perhaps a good going over of the truth of Ex 20:19 is in order
EX 20:19
Then they said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die."
You see....God watches over His word, that request was granted and they no longer heard from God but though Moses who reiterated the Law of God to the children of Israel or leased it to the vinedressers as mentioned below, and He God went into a far country (which means He granted that request in Ex 20:19)
Now that meaning seen in Ex 20 is spoken By Jesus in a parable in Matt 21:33
"Hear another parable:
There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.
So, I am not sure what you mean by what the OT laws of worship sought to do….I mean it seems it was already known that the very thing the OT law sought to do was not worship.... as Moses said in
Deut 18:15-19
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, ...........saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.'
17 And the Lord said to me: 'What they have spoken is good.
18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
....So again the helper only speaks what he hears, and that hearing comes from the word of God, and the saying....””whoever will not hear”” My words ..... is not limited to the OT Jews, ….that requirement taken from Deut 18:19 actually started when Jesus came.
Maybe you could summarize what you're trying to say here in three sentences or less(?) All I can say is the laws of worship were formal procedures for approaching God acceptably. Any violation of these procedures resulted in being cutoff from God. But now we are brought near through the Holy Spirit. We have been totally set free from any procedure of the law, or effort of our own to be in the presence of God (without dying), and be pleasing to God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
In your O…..In other words why did He choose that day...a ceremonial day, to cause confusion or to create division?
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You know the answer to that. He fulfilled that feast forever on that day for everyone who believes. What's so strange about that?
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How is keeping the feast cycle ourselves after Christ fulfilled it and accomplished the more important things those feasts represented help the fact that Christ fulfilled it?
As was mentioned above, Jesus was already resurrected and He was not there in the upper room, the fulfillment was by Faith which is the Spiritual side..... Or as Jesus said to them...”to wait”….for….the promise of the Father,
So keeping it in like manner must have something to do with Faith, not salvation!!
Unless you can show me in scripture, I don't think the Disciples had a clue what God had in store for them on the day of Pentacost. But they certainly did obey the clear instructions of Jesus to hang around Jerusalem for the gift that was coming.
You're trying to say they had a conscious connection between their obedience to observe the Feast and the giving of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that is true at all. Scripture doesn't say that. They were just being good Jews. What else would we expect of them at this time?
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
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Does it need to be continually fulfilled if Christ fulfilled its true purpose once and for all? Because of Christ's work, the literal is not required anymore.
That’s a good question,
Because there are those with little Faith and some with much Faith and the Bible tells us that it is impossible to please God without Faith.
Keeping the Feasts and other OT laws of worship are no longer the expression of faith God is looking for. Paul and John both teach that 'love' is the evidence and highest expression of our faith, not outward procedures.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Galatians 5:6)
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
For example; believing in Christmas in the guise of a Santa Clause, one should inquire of themselves and ask themselves…. when was the last time that Santa a man gave them everything they asked for.
So personally Faith in a Santa as a giver of gifts is no less then faith in a fallen man which always brought disappointment.
At least it did in this house when I was young…. Santa must have run out of money or had no room in the sled for the things I asked for.
Dashing through the snow, on a one-horse open sleigh...
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
If the feast cycle is fulfilled once and for all is it really necessary to be careful to continue to do it,
Everyday!
Hey wait! You're beginning to sound like non-literal Torah camp. Maybe you got dizzy typing out this long post and forgot who's side your on (I hate when that happens).
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
and on the exact days it used to be kept?
Why not?
I agree, why not? Then we can argue which Jewish sage has the real Hebrew calendar, because we wouldn't want to be off by even a day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Question…
….Why do we go to Church?
"...let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." (Hebrews 1024-25)
'Love and good deeds'--that's the part of the law we meet together and encourage each other to keep. Is your Church doing that, or are you caught up in the matter of proper worship procedures, seasons, and various end-times wonderings? We would all do well to concentrate on what really matters.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/23/2008 4:49:48 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 4:45:47 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Another best selling novel froooomm...SpongeBlog!!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 6:08:14 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Another best selling novel froooomm...SpongeBlog!!!
Don't blame me! LGyp started it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...He doesn’t hate Hebraic stuff – well maybe in a sense that my dad hates lettuce, swimming shorts, romantic comedies etc. – they are fine and great as long as they are not forced on him to be a user of it.
So I guess it's safe to say that must not have been your dad sitting by the pool eating a BLT and watching 'Fifty First Dates' the other day.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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