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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 7:55:16 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
I brought up the above scriptures only to prove that Passover is not all though way fulfill. Luke 22:15-16
Wait a second Mr. LBolt you kidding right  . Jesus the anointed one creator of everything was sitting down with his disciples on the passover meal. In a short time after this he became the Lamb which was the requirement, for the death angle to passover us.
Alright his blood did not make the Father happy. So because the Father, according to you is blood hungry, we need to have more perfect lambs brought out to slaughter and blood shed.
Wrong book and chapter on what you are trying to grasp at to see if the passover is meal that is still needed.
I eat biter herbs everyday. Please the only things that is required today for us to truely follow is the ten and no more than that. I am a Jew who was caught up on certain days and special feasts.
Which is not what really is God is looking for in us humans to do. In Ezekiel 16 in verse 49 God speaking through Ezekiel states that they Jews were worse than their sister Sodom and homosexuals wasn't really the great down fall of that city. So it looks as though you could keep the feast and the shadow laws and have God upset with you. Because you forgot the first ten.
You say but mac, you when we were discussing sabbath you said it wasn't for today. But as you recall I said it was for everyday. To have your troubles and cares in his arms. To watch over us as he has promised too rest from it all. In the thousand year reign of our Lord, we will find rest. Because human's will for the first time in our history will have peace (rest).
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 9:30:33 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 113
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quote:
quote:
I brought up the above scriptures only to prove that Passover is not all though way fulfill. Luke 22:15-16
Wait a second Mr. LBolt you kidding right . Jesus the anointed one creator of everything was sitting down with his disciples on the passover meal. In a short time after this he became the Lamb which was the requirement, for the death angle to passover us.
Alright his blood did not make the Father happy. So because the Father, according to you is blood hungry, we need to have more perfect lambs brought out to slaughter and blood shed.
Wrong book and chapter on what you are trying to grasp at to see if the passover is meal that is still needed.
I eat biter herbs everyday. Please the only things that is required today for us to truely follow is the ten and no more than that. I am a Jew who was caught up on certain days and special feasts.
Which is not what really is God is looking for in us humans to do. In Ezekiel 16 in verse 49 God speaking through Ezekiel states that they Jews were worse than their sister Sodom and homosexuals wasn't really the great down fall of that city. So it looks as though you could keep the feast and the shadow laws and have God upset with you. Because you forgot the first ten.
You say but mac, you when we were discussing sabbath you said it wasn't for today. But as you recall I said it was for everyday. To have your troubles and cares in his arms. To watch over us as he has promised too rest from it all. In the thousand year reign of our Lord, we will find rest. Because human's will for the first time in our history will have peace (rest).
Did you even READ the scripture? Does it not say that He would eat this Passover again when He returns? And if you pay extra attention, you'll see in the days of creation God's plan which includes the sabbath. Everything is there for a reason, for God's plan and purpose. Not one of us can make the claim that we know exactly what Lord is going to do but He did give us a blueprint to follow.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 9:32:45 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 113
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Another best selling novel froooomm...SpongeBlog!!!
Don't blame me! LGyp started it.
LOL now that was funny! 
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/23/2008 11:19:16 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
In your O…..In other words why did He choose that day...a ceremonial day, to cause confusion or to create division?
quote:
You know the answer to that. He fulfilled that feast forever on that day for everyone who believes. What's so strange about that?
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How is keeping the feast cycle ourselves after Christ fulfilled it and accomplished the more important things those feasts represented help the fact that Christ fulfilled it?
As was mentioned above, Jesus was already resurrected and He was not there in the upper room, the fulfillment was by Faith which is the Spiritual side..... Or as Jesus said to them...”to wait”….for….the promise of the Father,
So keeping it in like manner must have something to do with Faith, not salvation!!
Unless you can show me in scripture, I don't think the Disciples had a clue what God had in store for them on the day of Pentacost. But they certainly did obey the clear instructions of Jesus to hang around Jerusalem for the gift that was coming.
You're trying to say they had a conscious connection between their obedience to observe the Feast and the giving of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that is true at all. Scripture doesn't say that. They were just being good Jews. What else would we expect of them at this time?
Greetings,
quote:
Unless you can show me in scripture,
Ok…. now you’re speaking a language I understand
Very important>>Ga 1:12 - Show Context
I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation “from” Jesus Christ.
quote:
But they certainly did obey the clear instructions of Jesus to hang around Jerusalem for the gift that was coming.
Then why did you ask for a scripture? But the instruction you speak of was revelation,
The Bible in the book of the Law speaks of those prophets and about if their prophecy does not come to pass
One has pay attention to those little details,
Jesus did not tell them where to wait, but to wait in Jerusalem for the promise; and Jerusalem was a very big place. so to understand such a fulfillment of Pentecost then we have put in place why they were drawn to the upper room or just happened to be in the right place at the right time?
So I guess this feast has to do with Gods appointed times, for example…if it were not for the feast of Pentecost then 120 would not have been gathered in the upper room; but scattered throughout Jerusalem, so the feast caused them to be gathered.
quote:
I don't think the Disciples had a clue what God had in store for them on the day of Pentecost.
....How about afterwards?
............Do you think then they now had a clue?
What do you think the promise was?
Was it that they were in the right place at Gods appointed time?
Or
Was it the remembrance of what Jesus had said to them?
With that said, then we should go back up and take a look at what Paul told us above.
But the answer is both!!
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 6/23/2008 11:30:07 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 9:28:06 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Unless you can show me in scripture,
Ok…. now you’re speaking a language I understand
Very important>>Ga 1:12 - Show Context
I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation “from” Jesus Christ.
This is fine, but even Paul's revelations were based on scripture. Do you have even a little scripture to support what you claim? That claim being the disciples knew that obedience to the Festival cycle and the giving of the promise of the Father were directly connected.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
...So I guess this feast has to do with Gods appointed times, for example…if it were not for the feast of Pentecost then 120 would not have been gathered in the upper room; but scattered throughout Jerusalem, so the feast caused them to be gathered.
Like I said, they were just being good Jews. What else would we expect from them at this time? You're trying to make something out of nothing. Nobody is surprised by, or even questioning the validity of the fact that God had a new and higher spiritual fulfillment of the Feasts that was put in place in conjunction with those Feasts.
Your thinking really magnifies what's wrong with this whole Hebraic thingy. Instead of using the Feasts to turn your attention to the spiritual reality revealed through the Feasts, you're using the new spiritual reality to focus back on and bring validity and supremacy to the Feasts themselves.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
I don't think the Disciples had a clue what God had in store for them on the day of Pentecost.
....How about afterwards?
............Do you think then they now had a clue?
I guess you're trying to say after they received the promise they now had this wonderful revelation and said to each other, "Gee, guys, we really need to keep these Feasts and Sabbaths faithfully, now that the spiritual reality they represented is here." Which is exactly what I'm saying is wrong.
The Hebraic mindset does not understand. Jesus came here to point us to new and better things, not focus us back on the old. The old is how we understand the new. The new was not sent to help us understand the old. The old was sent to help us understand the new. You good people have it backwards.
You exalt the Feasts (the old) instead of exalting what they represented. God has unveiled a rest from sin. You're still stuck on resting from cutting the grass for a day. God has unveiled a time of cleansing from the leaven of sin. You're still inspecting your houses for actual leaven. God has congregated us and unified us perfectly in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Your're still making sure you all meet together on the right day. God has made us forever clean. You're still being careful to avoid unclean...oh, never mind, you got that one right.
You've got the focus in the wrong place. God's intention was to bring us to the new and greater realities, not make you are more faithful to the old. I'd like to believe you understand that, but your posts here make it obvious to me that the old is more important in your lives. And that it is the old that God will be calling you to account for.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
What do you think the promise was?
Was it that they were in the right place at Gods appointed time?
Or
Was it the remembrance of what Jesus had said to them?
With that said, then we should go back up and take a look at what Paul told us above.
But the answer is both!!
With all due respect, I honestly don't think you know what the 'promise of the Father' was (or is still to this day).
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 10:38:43 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
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quote:
Santa must have run out of money or had no room in the sled for the things I asked for.
we know ..you are smart and rascally, LG, and presuming you were always such - I suspect most of the things you asked Santa for were probably illegal and the rest you were too young for :))
quote:
So personally Faith in a Santa as a giver of gifts is no less then faith in a fallen man which always brought disappointment
Well :), who’s perfect? We ought to respect Santa here. It’s pretty obvious he is most likely, Jewish – who else would work on Christmas, manage to give away presents paid for by someone else, get all you can eat free cookies for it, he doesnt shave, Mrs allows him just one day a year to go out and do his hobby... I am sure he would move down to Boca Raton if it wasn’t for reindeers.
As for Christmas in general if someone kindly explains why is that a Big Problem. Holiday exploitation by retailers and pagan roots of the day/name we have covered . Is there any other objections to it? I think decent people remember Christ's birth every day. I am supporting what Mcleod said.
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 6/24/2008 10:45:55 AM >
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 11:00:45 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
So I guess it's safe to say that must not have been your dad sitting by the pool eating a BLT and watching 'Fifty First Dates' the other day.
nope, I think it was beloved brother L, and remove the bacon for turkey. Bumming in the sun having jolly good fun instead of answering the posts.
L, you told me to pick the bone, I did so what did he do next - he stood me up. I said, multiwordedly, that, basically, as New Israel citizens we are not subject to the same rules as old israel was. What makes you think we ought to act the same, considering all the changed circumstances ?
What's your conusel on this matter, Sir?
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 11:01:15 AM
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bjay0801
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The question is this: is it the thought that realy counts in God's eyes? Or is that just our excuse to do the things we realy just want to do any way?
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 12:21:31 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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This has been such a hoot.
Near as I can tell, I'm on page 3,466.
Some are on page 1.
Some are on page 666.
Some are on page 6,653.
some haven't opened the book yet.
We all have an "idea" what the others are saying,
but we're definitely not on the same page. LOL.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 12:23:26 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
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Our morning study group just finished up the book of Ruth.
Took all morning to finish the last two chapters. It was so good.
course we spent an hour looking words up, running references, etc.
It even took us back to Ezekiel 16.
Goose bumps and me wearing a jacket.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 2:11:53 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
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quote:
Did you even READ the scripture? Does it not say that He would eat this Passover again when He returns? And if you pay extra attention, you'll see in the days of creation God's plan which includes the sabbath. Everything is there for a reason, for God's plan and purpose. Not one of us can make the claim that we know exactly what Lord is going to do but He did give us a blueprint to follow.
Did I READ it. Come out of your blindness and see what happens.(verse15)" I have eagerley desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. (verse 16) For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God". (verse 17) After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said "Take this and divide it among you. (verse 18) For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes".(verse 19) And he took the bread gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them, saying "This is my body which is given for you do this in remembrance of me".(verse 20) In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covant in my blood, which is poured out for you
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 3:08:01 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Some are on page 666.
Some are on page 6,653.
You have some serious Bible version out there, Lapi, my respect! 6000+ pages!
oh, that's me on 666 , precisely- psalm 108 in KJV, i always use it when i pray for the country
V.12 "Give us help from trouble:for vain is the help of men" -( mine perpetually and recently yours can surely can use some good measure of God's help.I've seen predicament, been in many myself but how you gonna dig ourself out of oil thing I have no idea,God be with you)
Lapie, as for the rest, you are like a commercial! you advertise but bring us some fruit of your theological labors, not just progress report
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 4:08:39 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 113
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quote:
Did I READ it. Come out of your blindness and see what happens.(verse15)" I have eagerley desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. (verse 16) For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God".
Well, since He has not eaten passover with us yet, I suppose we will be expecting another. Other than that, we're cool.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/24/2008 4:25:35 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Lapie, as for the rest, you are like a commercial! you advertise but bring us some fruit of your theological labors, not just progress report
___________
LOL. I've tried, but it got disected into "sound bites."
So, I'll just give sound bites to begin with.
Later.
quote:
how you gonna dig ourself out of oil thing I have no idea,
The answer is easy, but won't happen. The nation has to REPENT, and obey.
Then God will "heal the land." I'm saddened when I read Revelation as God
pours out His wrath IN His mercy ----- "and they repented not."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 11:06:39 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The nation has to REPENT, and obey.
Then God will "heal the land." I'm saddened when I read Revelation as God pours out His wrath IN His mercy ----- "and they repented not."
Amen, yes, that would fix a ton of problems. Another highly effective, but unaccetable for chirstians, wonderful short term solution would be to blow up Congress. Oh, now i sound like Father Wright... ;)
Present your points , Lap, we will debate it. I am interested first of all:
What laws are us camps actually disagreeing on? Is it just Feasts and not eating stuff that OT prohibits or is there is more laws to it ?
I am asking you for are indie.
I know that , with all due respect to Messianic brethren, they vary greatly in what laws they attempt to obey, and many practice modern judaistic ideas, a k a "rabbinical teachings" alongside the Bible as well
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 11:15:47 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
The question is this: is it the thought that realy counts in God's eyes? Or is that just our excuse to do the things we realy just want to do any way?
I would not say that spirit of the law is just a thought, those who Jesus rebuked for disobeying the Law's intent were not only guilty of ungodly thoughts, but deeds.
But as for excuse to do what people want, you hit the nail in the head BJ,yes, religion is a tricky beast in that regard, it allows to fake rightousness big time. The most religious and strict obeyers of the Law on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 11:37:07 AM
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mcleod
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Say bjay you know that Jesus may have had a meal with them after the resurrection. The scriptures are not quite clear as to what he meant by that. But as I wrote, where does it say to keep the passover going in that text?
He does in other words which are in that text later on. To do as some would say the Lord's supper. Where you have the bread and wine for those purpose to remember what Jesus did on calvary so that we may have peace with the Father in heaven. Again just as the Hebrews would do the passover to remind them of what God had done for them. By removing them from land of slavery in Eygpt.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 2:23:44 PM
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Bluethread
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Sorry, it took me so long to get back to you. I have had business and personal issues and with the growing length of the posts it is getting difficult to respond quickly.
[quote:]ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
.I can't subscribe to your theory. But like you suggest, let's play with the 'in Spirit and in Truth' part of the story for now. [quote:/]
I am sure we will be revisiting the principles of male/female relations in due course.
[quote:]
[quote:]
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
"23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth..."
That statement can be refering to the fact that worshiping in spirit and in truth is how it always should have been. [quote:/]
What you say would be more credible if Jesus's appearance actually had resulted in the union of literal Torah and the devoted hearts of His people. But in fact the exact opposite happened with Jesus's coming. The Temple got utterly destroyed several decades later. That's not a good defense for your theory that Jesus was instituting the joyful reunion of literal Torah obeservance and devoted hearts. [quote:/]
Acts 2:1 The festival of Shavu'ot(Pentecost) arrived, and the believers all gathered together in one place..
5 Now there were staying in Yerushalayim religious Jews from every nation under heaven.
41 So those who accepted what he said were immersed, and there were added to the group that day about three thousand people.
I believe it did! I would not expect the majority or the ruling authority accepted Adonai’s way in any way, let alone in spirit and in truth. This has never been the case and it is just as true today as it was then. Also, as with all written codes, there are conflicts that occur because of our disobedience. Thus, when the temple became a den of thieves, it stopped serving its purpose and Adonai allowed it to be destroyed.
[quote:]As I've said, the very fact that he says worship will be neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria is the evidence that 'in Spirit and in Truth' is not literal Torah. Neither history nor the passage itself supports the idea that Jesus meant worshipers would now be obeying literal Torah from the heart. How could He mean that and at the same time plainly say literal worship will be neither in Jerusalem nor the Mt. in Samaria? [quote:/]
As I have said, His saying that worship will be neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria is an acknowledgement that the disagreement between the Samaritans and the Jews would soon be a moot point since we would be forced, by the Temples destruction, to worship in spirit and in truth, as we always should have. The Temple issue would literally no longer be a distraction. This is not inconsistent, since the Temple was instituted as a reminder of the covenant and was not itself the covenant. Just because we are not able to do temple sacrifice, does not mean we are not to do all we can to make sure we do not forget the covenant.
[quote:]
Maybe these passages will help validate the principle of interpretation for 'time' that I have set forth above:
"41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace-but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." (Luke 19:43-45)
" 54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? (Luke 12:54-57)
Jesus is indeed an appointed time that one must recognize and keep at the peril of one's life. [quote:/]
My original argument still holds. The Scriptures clearly state that the appointed times are for remembrance. Now, they may very well implicitly foreshadow future events also, but they explicitly remind us of Adonai’s provision.
How would one recognize the time of Adonai’s coming and how would one know what is necessary for interpreting the present time, without being familiar with the Tanach. And, what better way to remember what is in the Tanach than the means Adonai commands us to use (appointed times, tsitsit, tiffillen, Shema, etc.). Now, we don’t want to get derailed here. We can get back to the “time’ issue once we have dealt with the “in spirit and in truth” concept.
[quote:]
Maybe so. They just aren't required anymore. And furthermore, the way Jesus did tell us to remember His provision is not even part of the Mosaic Passover. [quote:/]
Yes, they are not required for salvation and never have been. However, since I want the benefit of receiving a discount and avoid interest, I appreciate, open and read my billing statements each month. In the same way, I appreciate and observe the directions Adonai provides for my benefit. The bread is a significant part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Though the cup of redemption is not dictated in Ha Torah, it is an integral part of the rabbinic Seder. The fact that Yeshua(Jesus) adds significance to this part of the Seder is to me a hint that He at least saw no harm in that Seder. It is interesting that many churches put great ritual significance to the regular observance of “communion”, yet find fault with the Seder from which it is derived.
[quote:]
I'm not one to speculate too much about how the millenium will look. But I don't see any real reason to think Jerusalem will not be where Jesus rules from. And I've been trying to show everyone the law that will that will go out from Zion is not the letter of the law of the OT. It isn't now, and it won't be then. One thing we can all agree on is animal sacrifice for sin is not a part of the law now, nor will it be then.
[quote:/]
Ha Torah has never been contained in the written word. Also, animal sacrifice for the complete forgiveness of sin has never been part of Ha Torah. Animal sacrifice is an act of faith that verifies that one has been saved, as are all of the commandments. That is what Hebrews 11 is all about. Avraham was called before the covenant, not after. Also, Avraham may have prepared the sacrifice, but Adonai was the one who made the covenant. Thus, the commandments given to the patriarchs and codified in the written Torah, including the sacrifices, are not what make us children of Adonai. They are the house rules. As in my household, apart from repeated outright rebellion, my children are always welcome in my house. However, if they do not want to abide by some of the house rules, they will lose some privileges.
Ha Torah became flesh and dwelt among us. If He chooses to change the rules He can, but I do not see that He has yet. In fact, one of the ways He tells us that we can know who speaks for Him is whether what is said violates the written word as it is properly understood.
[quote:]
I've been trying to show that 'law' in the NT does not include the rigid stipulations for external worship of the OT. Look at the very next verse after the one you embolded in your post:
"4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
The context is clearly in regard to the moral aspects of the law, not the ceremonial. The very thing I've been defending in this thread. I'm not suggesting there will be no semblence of OT worship in the millenium. I'm saying there is no evidence that it will be a hard and fast reinstitution of OT worship as you all claim. [quote:/]
Just because it reveals that Adonai will bring peace, does not mean that He will do away with anything in the law that does not directly relate to peace. Nor have I seen anywhere in Scripture where there is a clear differentiation between “moral” and “ceremonial” law.
I am aware of your intent, but the words, “rigid stipulations” and “hard and fast” are your terms. Adonai says, Deut 30:11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
[quote:]
I'm not pretending to have all the definitive answers for understanding Revelation, but why can't the ark in Rev. 11:19 be Jesus? Especially considering that the ark of the OT is gone forever and will not be replaced. That ark has no place or significance in God's plan anymore according to Jeremiah. [quote:/]
It can, but that doesn’t mean it does. Also, we do not know that the ark is gone. There is no record of its destruction. Where does Yeremayahu(Jeremiah) say the ark has no significance in Adonai’s plan? Again, absence of information does not equal destruction.
[quote:]
How can you say this? It is totally contrary to what Jesus is saying. He is saying to the woman at the well that the literal part of the 'old way' (worship can only be in Jerusalem) is not the way it will be anymore. How is the old literal way retained along with the new way by Jesus saying this? He's changing the old way by instituting a new a different way, not bringing us back to the old. It's impossible to make 'neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria' (my paraphrase) mean going back to the old way of Jerusalem exclusively. No interpretation is needed to understand this plain logic. [quote:/]
I can say this because of the context. Yeshua(Jesus) is talking to this woman about her personal relationship with Adonai. She is trying to avoid the issue by bringing up the temple issue. So, to get her back to her personal relationship, He points out that the dispute between Jews and the Samaritans is irrelevant to the present discussion. Then when she will not let go of the issue, He points out that the Jews(of which He is one) have the right answer. But, He continues, that does not matter because this issue will soon be a moot point. He does not clearly say why we will worship 'neither in Jerusalem nor Samaria', but that we will worship “in spirit and in truth”. You say this is a new concept. I say this is how it always should have been. I do not think that this passage definitively resolves this latter difference of opinion.
[quote:] [quote:]
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The potential deceitfulness of “worship in the spirit” is in determining if it is Ha Ruach Adonai(The Spirit of the Lord) or some other spirit. The same also applies to truth. That is why we need Ha Torah to remind us of how Adonai interacts with us and who He is. Thus we need to worship in The Spirit and in The Truth. [quote:/]
Whoa! Slow down! I said external worship is the potentially deceitful thing, not worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. By definition 'in Spirit and in Truth' cannot be deceitful. External worship has the potential for being insincere and outward only. [quote:/]
And I say internal worship is the potentially deceitful. Worshiping 'in Spirit and in Truth' is both internal and external. Internal worship has the potential for being self-centered and inward only.
[quote:] I said I was going to Phillipians 3 next. Just as Jesus contrasts the old literal way with the new spiritual way in John 4, so Paul also contrasts the old way of literal circumcision with the new way of spiritual circumcision, and says circumcision of the heart, not outward circumcision, is how one worships 'in Spirit and in Truth'. They are not the same thing. He is hardly reinstituting the old and now calling it worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. He's drawing a very stark contrast between the two. He's not likening them to each other in the least. He's contrasting them sharply. [quote:/]
I know you wish to move on to the specific command regarding circumcision. I surmise you see it as a slam dunk proof of your point. I see this as an issue between those who hold to salvation by grace(of which I am one) and those who hold to salvation by works. This is much like the temple issue between the Jews and the Samaritans. If we can keep it in this context then it would be alright to move on. Otherwise, we still need to clear up our differences on John 4 passage. Let’s take this one step at a time, so we don’t misunderstand one another as just happened with regard to the internal/external issue. We don’t want to have to plow the same ground again later.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 4:50:01 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
The question is this: is it the thought that realy counts in God's eyes? Or is that just our excuse to do the things we realy just want to do any way?
I would not say that spirit of the law is just a thought, those who Jesus rebuked for disobeying the Law's intent were not only guilty of ungodly thoughts, but deeds.
But as for excuse to do what people want, you hit the nail in the head BJ,yes, religion is a tricky beast in that regard, it allows to fake righteousness big time. The most religious and strict obeyer’s of the Law on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants.
Greetings,
I am not sure what the tradition is Jesus is speaking of, can you offer and O??
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 5:53:42 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 113
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Say bjay you know that Jesus may have had a meal with them after the resurrection. The scriptures are not quite clear as to what he meant by that. But as I wrote, where does it say to keep the passover going in that text?
He does in other words which are in that text later on. To do as some would say the Lord's supper. Where you have the bread and wine for those purpose to remember what Jesus did on calvary so that we may have peace with the Father in heaven. Again just as the Hebrews would do the passover to remind them of what God had done for them. By removing them from land of slavery in Eygpt.
Actualy my friend, the bible makes it quite clear that it was the Passover meal that they were having. The scriptures make it clear that they had more than just one cup. There are actualy 4 cups that are taken during passover and each one has a meaning. We can look at Luke22:16
For I say unto you *, I will not any more eat thereof *, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
22:18
For I say unto you *, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
See? 2 cups right there. Most of us would not see that because of mis teachings from the time we grew up. Not that it was done with bad intentions or malice, but most people just did not realize that Jesus ate Passover dinner. Passover is more than a cracker and a sip of juice or wine. Every part of this service has a meaning and all of it points to Jesus. Our Jewish brethern have no idea why there are some of the things done in the Passover meal such as taking the 3 matzas (the unleavened bread), taking the middle piece, and breaking it and then hiding a piece of the one that was broken to be taken from it's hiding place later on. They doo not see year after year how they recite (while looking at the matza) "see how it is striped" and "see how it is bruised". There are many other wonderfull things in Passover that should not be overlooked. This is why I pay very close attention to the feasts of the Lord.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 6:02:23 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 113
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
The question is this: is it the thought that realy counts in God's eyes? Or is that just our excuse to do the things we realy just want to do any way?
I would not say that spirit of the law is just a thought, those who Jesus rebuked for disobeying the Law's intent were not only guilty of ungodly thoughts, but deeds.
But as for excuse to do what people want, you hit the nail in the head BJ,yes, religion is a tricky beast in that regard, it allows to fake righteousness big time. The most religious and strict obeyer’s of the Law on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants.
Well, since obediance or disobediance starts in the heart, I would have to say that the religious leaders (those whom Jesus addressed) had a heart problem. They were disobediant on the outward as well as the inward. On some levels anyway. They did pay tithes and said prayers, ect which He said these things you ought to do, but because of the "traditions of the elders", they neglected the "weightier matters of the law".
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 7:51:12 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Is God Torah?
Joh 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word.
Joh 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Scripture are all about Jesus.
Mt 4:4 -But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
Scripture come from out of the heart of God since from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Lu 4:32 -And they were astonished at His teaching, for His word was with authority.
Of course His word had authority, He is the Word.
Joh 15:7 - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Jesus abides in us by Spirit an Torah in our heart as illustrated below.
Jer 31:33 -But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 36:27 - I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Joh 14:26 -"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jesus sent the Spirit to teach us His Word, not a new Word, but things God has already spoken.
2Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
What Jesus put in it us is for our instruction, but it has to be set free from the bondage of carnality through mortification and sanctification. All Scripture is God breathe.
Ga 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
All of the First Covenant Scripture was given to mankind for instruction and convinced man as a transgressor.
A few words to consider-
Greek- "Word and Scripture"
Rhema (Word)- that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
Logos (word) - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea, doctrine, teaching
Graphe (Scripture)- the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
Gramma (Scripture)- letter, of sacred learning
Nomos (law)- anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
Hebrew- "Word and Scripture"
imrah (word)- word of God, the Torah
amar (word)- to say, speak, utter
Kathab (Scripture)- a writing, document, edict
Towrah (law, commandment)- law, direction, instruction
Mitsvah (Commandment, ordinance)- commandment
Dabar (Commandment/Word)- speech, word, speaking, thing
Most of these words share common meanings between them. The original word for Law in Greek does not mean all the things the word for Law in the Hebrew means. Torah adds the meaning of discipleship like a master or father would hand down to a pupil or son by means of instructions for conduct or directions our life should follow.
What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 10:47:55 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I know you wish to move on to the specific command regarding circumcision. I surmise you see it as a slam dunk proof of your point. I see this as an issue between those who hold to salvation by grace(of which I am one) and those who hold to salvation by works. This is much like the temple issue between the Jews and the Samaritans. If we can keep it in this context then it would be alright to move on. Otherwise, we still need to clear up our differences on John 4 passage. Let’s take this one step at a time, so we don’t misunderstand one another as just happened with regard to the internal/external issue. We don’t want to have to plow the same ground again later.
I knew you'd play the 'Temple is gone' card in one shape or another with the John 4 passages, so let's just get to the Phil. 3 passage.
You can bend and twist and read into it all you want, but Paul is contrasting literal circumcision with spritual circumcision, and saying that 'worshiping by the Spirit' is circumcision, not literal circumcision itself.
"For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus..." (Phil. 3:3)
He's saying worshiping 'by the Spirit of God' is what circumcision is, not circumcision itself. And if you need more proof of Paul's stance on the matter of getting circumcised under any circumstance...
"...each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. (1 Cor. 7:17-19)
No qualifications of attitude or purpose are attached whatsoever to his command to not be circumcised. He says don't get circumcised if you are not already circumcised, period.
And this is another place that supports my argument that the OT laws of worship are not included in 'keeping God's commands' in the NT. Do you really think Paul is saying, "don't get circumcised", and then turning right around and saying, "keep God's commands including the one to be circumcised"?
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/25/2008 10:56:01 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 11:15:01 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
What do you think the promise was?
The Holy Spirit. But your indoctrination causes you to instantly think 'law' whenever you hear 'Holy Spirit'. I could list all the things that are in Torah that the Holy Spirit is not writing on the hearts of His people today. And not just because the Temple is gone. Torah and Holy Spirit are not interchangable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
. God has congregated us and unified us perfectly in Christ by the Holy Spirit.
SO…..If it is as you mentioned above that God has congregated us and unified us perfectly in Christ by the Holy Spirit ....then there would have been no need to tell them to go and tarry in Jerusalem to wait for the promise of the Father, after Receiving the Holy Spirit ???
We know what Christ had in mind to do at that meeting at that time to serve the purpose it did. But tell me, after almost 2000 years of Church history, what does Christ do in your Saturday meetings that He doesn't do in someone's Sunday meeting?
I started out in the charismatic church. And I've heard the testimonies of the Messianic Church, and they're wonderful. But trust me, you don't have anything above and beyond them. The day of the week the Church meets no longer has any relevance.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/25/2008 11:21:03 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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