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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2008 11:25:16 PM
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MrFribbles
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
The day of the week the Church meets no longer has any relevance.
I just want to throw in a quick "Yep, I agree," and point towards Romans 14, especially verse 5.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 4:34:25 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2943
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I know you wish to move on to the specific command regarding circumcision. I surmise you see it as a slam dunk proof of your point. I see this as an issue between those who hold to salvation by grace(of which I am one) and those who hold to salvation by works. This is much like the temple issue between the Jews and the Samaritans. If we can keep it in this context then it would be alright to move on. Otherwise, we still need to clear up our differences on John 4 passage. Let’s take this one step at a time, so we don’t misunderstand one another as just happened with regard to the internal/external issue. We don’t want to have to plow the same ground again later.
I knew you'd play the 'Temple is gone' card in one shape or another with the John 4 passages, so let's just get to the Phil. 3 passage.
I am not playing cards here. I am acting on what I consider to be the foundation of my faith, the Shema, which Yeshua refered to as the greatest commandment, using what Yeshua called the second greatest commandment to do it.
Deut 6:4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one]; 5 and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources. 6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart; 7 and you are to teach them carefully to your children. You are to talk about them when you sit at home, when you are traveling on the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead, 9 and write them on the door-frames of your house and on your gates."
Lev 19:17 "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
I presume you are doing the same, though you do not profess this as the foundation of your beliefs. I am not trying to win an argument as a sophist would. I am seeking the truth. My footnote is sincere. You say that worshiping “in spirit and in truth” should be the foundation of ones faith. If I am wrong, I will accept that. However, as Paul tells us, (Ro 14:5) "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." I am not yet convinced.
quote:
You can bend and twist and read into it all you want, but Paul is contrasting literal circumcision with spritual circumcision, and saying that 'worshiping by the Spirit' is circumcision, not literal circumcision itself.
Is this a clarification or a change? Is the old discussion passed away? What about the context of John 4, the way Yeshua wants us to remember His provision, the sacrifices as tools for rememberence, Adonai's assuring us that keeping Ha Torah is not too difficult, the possible distruction of the Ark of the Covenant, and most important of all, can one worship Adonai inwardly without doing so outwardly? Are all of these now irrelevent compared to whether or not we would be continuing to do sacrifice at the Temple if it still stood today or whether or not one should be circumcised?
quote:
"For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus..." (Phil. 3:3)
He's saying worshiping 'by the Spirit of God' is what circumcision is, not circumcision itself. And if you need more proof of Paul's stance on the matter of getting circumcised under any circumstance...
"...each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. (1 Cor. 7:17-19)
No qualifications of attitude or purpose are attached whatsoever to his command to not be circumcised. He says don't get circumcised if you are not already circumcised, period.
The sacrifices constitute some of Ha Torah and circumcision is a commandment. I agree, to see circumcision as the definitive commandment is to misunderstand Ha Torah. However, to raise Paul's rule to the level of a literal commandment seems to violate your own principle of not keeping "ceremonial commandments".
If one does not have a clear understanding of what the fundimental principles are and what they mean, the individual rules of living derived from such principles mean nothing. As Paul states in Romans 4:11, Avaraham "received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised."
quote:
And this is another place that supports my argument that the OT laws of worship are not included in 'keeping God's commands' in the NT. Do you really think Paul is saying, "don't get circumcised", and then turning right around and saying, "keep God's commands including the one to be circumcised"?
If one rejects the Covenant, circumcision is nothing. Discussing circumcision, or any commandment for that matter, without a clear understanding of the Covenant is useless. So, is "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” still the founding principle of the Covenant we are to accept or are we adopting another?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/26/2008 4:42:53 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 11:30:04 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
You can bend and twist and read into it all you want, but Paul is contrasting literal circumcision with spritual circumcision, and saying that 'worshiping by the Spirit' is circumcision, not literal circumcision itself.
"For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus..." (Phil. 3:3)
Out of context. Again, saying Paul is saying something he is not.
In this verse it is saying: "For it is we who are the {Jews}, we who worship by the spirit of God,
who glory in Christ Jesus. . ." (Phi. 3:3)
Circumcision on one hand is the cutting off the "flesh."
both physically and spiritually.
In this verse it is identifying the non-Gentiles.
Just my 4 mites worth.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 11:34:00 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Context of Philippians 3 {Warning Against Confidence in the Flesh}
3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same
things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and
rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 12:58:25 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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UNDER THE LAW
First we have to understand:
[Blessings and Curses]
Deut. 7:6 ---- Israel Set-Apart; Chosen.
Deut. 28:9-11----God sets apart.
Deut. 4:5-6 ----- Israel taught {Obedience causes wisdom and understanding}
Deut. 27:1-16 --- Mt. Ebal / Mt. Gerizim (Distinct Blessings and Cursings)
"Cursed" --- subject to the Torah's penalties and would no longer be
under mercy or under grace.
Deut. 10:12-13 --- what God required of Israel. (l'tov lakha) "for your benefit"
The best way to succeed on Planet Earth, both spiritually and physically.
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Sadducees only accepted the written Torah [Genesis - Deuteronomy] as relevant.
Pharisees considered the entire TaNaCh as applicable. But, also revered the
Oral Torah (traditions).
Yeshua's theology was closer to the Pharisees than the Sadducees.
When Yeshua debated the Pharisees, it was over Torah interpretation and
application ----- not "doing away" with commandments.
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Matthew 5:17-19 Primary importance to those who believe Yeshua/Jesus
is the Messiah and that He is the Word of God made flesh ---- By living a
perfect life, He followed the Torah perfectly and is without sin. He is our example.
All Scripture regarding the Torah is interpreted through His Words.
If Yeshua's Words are final, we reconcile everything to these Words.
When the Messiah says, "Do not think I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets,"
His mission is NOT to do away with the Law of Moses.
"abolish" {kataluo} meaning, to end the effect or validity of something;
put an end to [BDAG].
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets." (KJV)
What was His mission? "I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."
"fulfill" {pleroo} meaning, to make full, to fill, to fill up, to carry into effect,
bring to realization, realize [Thayer].
What this means is that in "fulfilling" the Torah, Yeshua came to live it
properly as our example. Many do not believe this to be true, and instead
believe that the Messiah "fulfilled" the Torah only in a prophetic sense, and
that it is not relevant to be followed today. But fulfill is by no means a
synonym for abolish!
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(V.18) - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest
letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
KJV rendered it "till all be fulfilled."
Fulfilled in v.18 is not 'pleroo', but 'gignomai' [to become (Thayer)].
Fulfilled is a misleading translation in our language, and the Messiah says until
all is accomplished that the smallest letter and stroke, of the Torah, will not pass
away. Heaven and Earth will pass away before the Torah passes away.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others
to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps
and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt. 5:18-19).
"LEAST" - "elachistos" "the least, minimal in magnitude; in number and quantity;
in rank or dignity; in weight or importance."
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UNDER THE LAW
(to be continued)
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 6/26/2008 1:05:04 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 1:13:04 PM
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pastor79553
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The Law is to be obeyed. Look at what Yeshua (Jesus) said to the rich man in Matthew 19 when he asked Yeshua what good thing he must do to inherit eternal life. He told him to keep the comandments. And King David wrote in Psalms 119.9, " How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking HEED according to Your word."
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This is eternal life that they might know Thee, the only True GOD... (John 17.3)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 1:18:48 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/2/2008
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I am personalily talking about Jesus who is the word, hence the entirety and totality of all Scripture (The Word/Rhema) as we like to religiously say. Jesus is called the Word of God, hence everything spoken by God is about Jesus. It is a description of His person, character, office, and nature. We cannot selectively separate elements from the whole by personal choice and still have truth. This is where the stuggle is. How to reconcile the elements and aspects of God that I am not in agreement with?
Some examples christians say:
Some people say if God is love, then why is their so much violence?
Some people say if God is merciful, then why am I suffering so badly?
Some people say if God is Torah, then why is there so much lawlessness?
Some people say if God is good, then why did my brother have to die?
Lu 21:33 - Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Nothing of Jesus' word is passing away.
Joh 12:49 - For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
Everything spoken by Jesus came from the Father.
Mt 10:20 - for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
The same should go for us.
Genesis 40:8 “And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God?...”
2 Peter 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 1:58:05 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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The word "law" has become a negative term only in our
modern phenomenon. Law and Order are good things.
The primary problem with law, with bad teachings from all sides aren't
the main problem, but something that many are not willing to see, again
from all sides.
The reason is humanity's inherent disobedience or rebellion toward God.
2 Thess. 2:7 ---- "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work."
This epistle was written in 50-52 A.D. some 20 years after the ascension
of Yeshua (Jesus) into Heaven. So it's nothing new. Paul had feelings
his work was in vain, because of the attitudes of his own day where his
teachings were ignored and/or twisted to suit themselves.
Maybe a not-so-theological definition could clear some things up.
Law = "Umbrella"
Grace = "Umbrella"
Keeping Torah would be "under the law (umbrella)" in our modern way
of thinking, just as being "under Grace (umbrella)" would be.
but the meaning in writ is "under law" = subject to the penalties of the Law.
If I keep the law, I'm under the umbrella (blessings, protection).
If I break the law, I'm under the curse of the law (out from under the umbrella).
If I obey God, I'm standing on the Mountain of Blessings.
If I disobey God, I'm standing on the Mountain of Curses.
Personally, I see that as love as well, because once we realize we are on the
wrong mountain, we maneuver back where God intends for us to be from the beginning.
So our world view, per se, or perception of a word affects our thought patterns.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 2:07:34 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Welcome to Crosswalk pastor.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 10:31:24 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...It is interesting that many churches put great ritual significance to the regular observance of “communion”, yet find fault with the Seder from which it is derived.
What we find fault in is the insistance that we must do it according to Jewish tradition, and do it in order to have some supposed benefit that God only gives to those who do it that way. It just isn't true.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...the commandments given to the patriarchs and codified in the written Torah, including the sacrifices, are not what make us children of Adonai. They are the house rules. As in my household, apart from repeated outright rebellion, my children are always welcome in my house. However, if they do not want to abide by some of the house rules, they will lose some privileges.
So many commands aren't house rules anymore. That's what this thread is (or should be) all about.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Ha Torah became flesh and dwelt among us. If He chooses to change the rules He can, but I do not see that He has yet.
I can't believe you literal law keepers don't see how much your life would be different if you really lived under an unchanged law. I mean that. It's utterly amazing to me how people from your camp can say they're 'keeping the law' because it hasn't changed and yet turn a blind eye to so much that they don't keep.
If you thought about it, even you could make a list of things that are no longer binding from the OT law. The rules have changed. Why is this so hard to admit? That's why I often make a big deal about pointing out that people who claim they're 'keeping the law' aren't keeping the law as much as they think they are.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Nor have I seen anywhere in Scripture where there is a clear differentiation between “moral” and “ceremonial” law.
It doesn't need to be spelled out. Nobody gets hurt when you don't go to church on Saturday, or don't partake of a Passover meal. Contrast the violation of those commands with violating the command to not sleep with your neighbor's wife. It's easy to see one is a law governing how we approach God, while the other is a law insuring the well-being of our neighbor.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...we do not know that the ark is gone. There is no record of its destruction. Where does Yeremayahu(Jeremiah) say the ark has no significance in Adonai’s plan? Again, absence of information does not equal destruction.
Jeremiah 3:16
In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD, "men will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 11:31:22 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Deut 6:4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one]; 5 and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources. 6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart; 7 and you are to teach them carefully to your children. You are to talk about them when you sit at home, when you are traveling on the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead, 9 and write them on the door-frames of your house and on your gates."
Lev 19:17 "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
I presume you are doing the same, though you do not profess this as the foundation of your beliefs.
Love your neighbor as yourself is the absolute foundation of my relationship with God right now. It's the only undebateable and undeniable truth in scripture (except salvation itself). Everything else seems to be open to debate. That's why I've come to where I am today. I've devoted my whole life to the one sure thing that isn't in dispute and which even the Bible says is the most important thing. But what's going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday got to do with that?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I am not trying to win an argument as a sophist would. I am seeking the truth. My footnote is sincere. You say that worshiping “in spirit and in truth” should be the foundation of ones faith. If I am wrong, I will accept that. However, as Paul tells us, (Ro 14:5) "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." I am not yet convinced.
Amen. I try to remind myself that my goal is to defend my point of view, not change yours. You should keep right on serving God the way you are convinced you should. The last thing I want to do is cause you to violate your own conscience. But if you see even a little truth in what I say, then great.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...What about the context of John 4, the way Yeshua wants us to remember His provision, the sacrifices as tools for rememberence, Adonai's assuring us that keeping Ha Torah is not too difficult, the possible distruction of the Ark of the Covenant...
You see the destruction of the Temple as the unavoidable consequence of man's disobedience, and totally against God's plan to maintain the system of OT worship. I see the destruction of the Temple as God's way of telling us that old way is not valid anymore, and a new way has replaced it. Hebrews bears this out. This is what it means to look at things through the Hebraic mindset vs. the mindset of Christ. Hebrews fully explains the end of the old way in favor of a new and better way. The Hebraic mindset is dead set on preserving the old way that the NT plainly says has now been rendered obsolete (useless).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...and most important of all, can one worship Adonai inwardly without doing so outwardly?
We both know that whatever is inside of you is what comes out of you. That's why it's so important to have the right thing inside of you. For example, does the way you understand the command to 'rest' manifest itself outwardly in your life as a day off from cutting the grass, or what God really had in mind, a good long siesta from doing harm to your neighbor? Now that the spiritual is here, we must conform to the requirements of God in the true spiritual way that the old literal only represented. Remember, we're debating the role of the old laws of worship, not 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The old laws of worship must now be understood in the unveiled truth of 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That truth was there in the law, but it was hard to see. Only in Christ, in the light of day, does it become fully visible. Isaiah 58 is a really good example of veiled NT truth in the OT.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The sacrifices constitute some of Ha Torah and circumcision is a commandment. I agree, to see circumcision as the definitive commandment is to misunderstand Ha Torah. However, to raise Paul's rule to the level of a literal commandment seems to violate your own principle of not keeping "ceremonial commandments".
No, that's not what I'm saying. Paul defends the commands that guard the well-being of our neighbor. He rejects the law of circumcision as a meaningless nothing. How is a literal circumcision an expression of my love for my neighbor? But it's easy to see how spiritual circumcision (the removal of the influence of the flesh from my heart) is indeed an outward and practical benefit to the well-being of my neighbor. Physical circumcision plays no part in that whatsoever.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If one does not have a clear understanding of what the fundimental principles are and what they mean, the individual rules of living derived from such principles mean nothing.
Nonsense. For instance, a person doesn't need to be circumcised to know and appreciate spiritual circumcision of the heart. Word descriptions are quite adequate. In fact, literal circumcision is a perfect example that defies your argument that acting it out personally is the only way to fully appreciate it the way God intended because 50% of the Church can never experience it anyway, and those of us who have had it done were too young to glean any value out of it! So much for the argument 'you have to actually experience it to glean the full value of it that God reserves for those who actually act it out literally'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If one rejects the Covenant, circumcision is nothing.
If you have accepted the covenant established in Christ's blood, circumcision is nothing! He said physcial circumcision is meaningless if you have already been spiritually circumcised by the Holy Spirit. No act of external worship through any commandment, no matter how required it used to be, can add to the covenant we have by Christ. But there is the danger that it can take away from it! That's what Paul's warning is!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...is "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” still the founding principle of the Covenant we are to accept or are we adopting another?
Worshiping in Spirit and in Truth is believing in Christ's work on our behalf. It's that simple. And the NT plainly says that that faith manifests itself in love, not in what Festival you observe or what day of the week you go to church on. That's what life in the Spirit in the New Covenant is all about!
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 11:42:02 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2260
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Under the terms of the new covenant as described in Jer 31:33 when God writes the Torah in the hearts of man, is this all aspects of the law or only the moral aspect of the law?
If gentles are today saved under the terms of the new covenant with the Torah written in our hearts and if the complete Torah is contained wouldn’t it be automatic that we would obey all aspects of the law?
It seems to me that the gentile world saved today does obey the moral laws but not the rest.
I’ve heard it preached by Jewish Messianic that the Torah written in the hearts of man is the 10 words…one for example is Tim Hegg.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2008 11:58:47 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
(V.18) - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest
letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
KJV rendered it "till all be fulfilled."
Fulfilled in v.18 is not 'pleroo', but 'gignomai' [to become (Thayer)].
Fulfilled is a misleading translation in our language, and the Messiah says until
all is accomplished that the smallest letter and stroke, of the Torah, will not pass
away. Heaven and Earth will pass away before the Torah passes away.
Much more than just the smallest letter or stroke of the pen has passed from the law, and heaven and earth are still here. So that means whatever Jesus said must be accomplished before even the least of the law can pass away must have happened. What was that?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others
to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps
and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt. 5:18-19).
"LEAST" - "elachistos" "the least, minimal in magnitude; in number and quantity;
in rank or dignity; in weight or importance."
And this was absolutely true until whatever it was that had to be accomplished before anything could pass away from the law had occurred. And since we all agree the law has changed (animal sacrifice and circumcision), and heaven and earth are still here, that thing that must be accomplished first must have occurred. But, at the time Jesus said this, the 'accomplishment' had not yet occurred.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/27/2008 12:37:01 AM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 12:18:21 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Under the terms of the new covenant as described in Jer 31:33 when God writes the Torah in the hearts of man, is this all aspects of the law or only the moral aspect of the law?
I say all, but some in their higher and more meaningful spiritual way. For example, everyone who believes has fulfilled (kept) the law of sacrifice for sin, but not in the old literal way, but in the new spiritual way of believing in Christ's body. This is a perfect example of how the law is not abolished (Christ plainly said He didn't come to abolish the law), but how the requirement of the law is fulfilled (the very thing Jesus did say He came to do).
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matt. 5:17)
The laws of animal sacrifice for sin, and physical circumcision are perfect examples to understand what Jesus was saying. Neither has been abolished, but rather have found their fulfillment in the new way of the spirit, not the old way of the written code. Believing is the new work of fulfilling (keeping) the requirements of those laws, not actually doing them literally as was once required. That is what it means to have them written on your heart. 'Believing'...'written on the heart'...see the connection? Other OT laws of worship can also now be understood as being 'fulfilled' in like manner. Not abolished, but fulfilled. And as Jesus says, it is this fulfillment of the law that had to be accomplished before the least letter could pass from the law.
Jesus has accomplished the fulfillment of the law of sacrifice for sin, therefore, the letter of the law of animal sacrifice for sin can now 'pass' from the law. This is the precedant for understanding how other OT worship laws find their fulfillment in the accomplishment of Christ's work and releases us from the letter of those laws, yet does not abolish the fundamental requirement of those laws.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/27/2008 12:40:01 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 4:16:52 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2943
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...It is interesting that many churches put great ritual significance to the regular observance of “communion”, yet find fault with the Seder from which it is derived.
What we find fault in is the insistance that we must do it according to Jewish tradition, and do it in order to have some supposed benefit that God only gives to those who do it that way. It just isn't true.
Nowhere in this conversation have I stated that one must keep Jewish tradition. I only pointed out that "communion" is derived from the Pesach Seder. It is interesting then that the Pesach Seder is seen as overly restrictive, yet the rituals of "communion" are not. Given your objections to ceremony, I would expect that you would not care how one practices "communion" either, so I will not press that point here. We may differ on what should be remembered, but if the original Pesach is to be remembered, I would think that there is greater benefit in rituals that are similar to what is to be remembered than in those that are not.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...the commandments given to the patriarchs and codified in the written Torah, including the sacrifices, are not what make us children of Adonai. They are the house rules. As in my household, apart from repeated outright rebellion, my children are always welcome in my house. However, if they do not want to abide by some of the house rules, they will lose some privileges.
So many commands aren't house rules anymore. That's what this thread is (or should be) all about.
That is why I am trying to determine what you consider the primary principle(spirit) of the household is. It is much easier to determine what the rules of the house are if one first understands what is most important to the head of the household. Most primary principles are positive, that is they state what is important and then move on to specific applications. Here, there appears to be a focus on things that are not rules of the house in an attempt to communicate the primary principles by the process of elimination.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Ha Torah became flesh and dwelt among us. If He chooses to change the rules He can, but I do not see that He has yet.
I can't believe you literal law keepers don't see how much your life would be different if you really lived under an unchanged law. I mean that. It's utterly amazing to me how people from your camp can say they're 'keeping the law' because it hasn't changed and yet turn a blind eye to so much that they don't keep.
If you thought about it, even you could make a list of things that are no longer binding from the OT law. The rules have changed. Why is this so hard to admit? That's why I often make a big deal about pointing out that people who claim they're 'keeping the law' aren't keeping the law as much as they think they are.
The reason I am not admitting that, "The rules have changed." is because I am not "you literal law keepers". I am rational person, who tests all things as the Scriptures say I should. Also, I will not submit to your image of who I am because it is presumptious and wrong in so many ways. I had hoped to avoid the endless listing of specific commands and the inevitable search for that one command that I may not be keeping as you think I should given your prejudiced view of who I am and what I think.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Nor have I seen anywhere in Scripture where there is a clear differentiation between “moral” and “ceremonial” law.
It doesn't need to be spelled out. Nobody gets hurt when you don't go to church on Saturday, or don't partake of a Passover meal. Contrast the violation of those commands with violating the command to not sleep with your neighbor's wife. It's easy to see one is a law governing how we approach God, while the other is a law insuring the well-being of our neighbor.
This is a perfect example. I do not require anyone to "go to church on Saturday", or any other day for that matter. I do not believe either that activity or that time period is Scriptural. Now if others choose to take part in such activities or recognize such a time period, I do not get irrate because they do not see these things as I do. I merely express my opinion when the opportunity arises.
I also do not require others to observe the Pesach Seder. In fact, I would discourage anyone who is hostle to the idea from taking part, because it would be an abomination for them to do so.
Regarding sleeping with another man's wife, I believe there a some unitarian swingers who believe this harms no one either. In fact, they may use the "law of love" to justify such behavior as insuring the well-being of ones neighbor.
If I ignore all of that and accept your premiss, it appears that you are saying that how we approach Adonai is mere ritual, while how we treat our brother is moral. If it matters not how I treat Adonai, then why should I care about how I treat some creature that happens to bear His image?
So, though it seems clear to you what is "moral" and what is “ceremonial”, not everyone shares your views, nor are they reasonably required to without an agreed upon guiding principle or code.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...we do not know that the ark is gone. There is no record of its destruction. Where does Yeremayahu(Jeremiah) say the ark has no significance in Adonai’s plan? Again, absence of information does not equal destruction.
Jeremiah 3:16
In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD, "men will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.
This too is a case in point. I am a man of my word. It appears the ark will not return. I will discuss this with others, but for now, there will be no ark. However, that is all we know for sure. The appointed times can still be observed without the ark. As the next verse says, (Jeremiah 3:17) "At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord."
I have never insisted that there would be sacrifices in the future, I just eluded to the possibility.
On to your second post.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/27/2008 4:30:16 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 5:55:39 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2943
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Love your neighbor as yourself is the absolute foundation of my relationship with God right now. It's the only undebateable and undeniable truth in scripture (except salvation itself). Everything else seems to be open to debate. That's why I've come to where I am today. I've devoted my whole life to the one sure thing that isn't in dispute and which even the Bible says is the most important thing. But what's going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday got to do with that?
Are you sure, we have spent a lot of time and effort discussing the worship of Adonai in spirit and in truth and now you say that loving ones neighbor is more important than that. Doesn't Mattiyahu(Matthew) tell us, (Mt 22:37) Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment." He does go on to say, 39 "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Now, I don't know what going to church has to do with anything, your the one who brought it up. However, this does support my view that any requirement, including going to church if you insist, must have everything to do with one of these commandment.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...What about the context of John 4, the way Yeshua wants us to remember His provision, the sacrifices as tools for rememberence, Adonai's assuring us that keeping Ha Torah is not too difficult, the possible distruction of the Ark of the Covenant...
You see the destruction of the Temple as the unavoidable consequence of man's disobedience, and totally against God's plan to maintain the system of OT worship. I see the destruction of the Temple as God's way of telling us that old way is not valid anymore, and a new way has replaced it. Hebrews bears this out. This is what it means to look at things through the Hebraic mindset vs. the mindset of Christ. Hebrews fully explains the end of the old way in favor of a new and better way. The Hebraic mindset is dead set on preserving the old way that the NT plainly says has now been rendered obsolete (useless).
I do not believe I said that. The distruction of the Temple was not unavoidable, we could have viewed it in the proper prospective, as a tool for exemplifying our faith by actions. Nor did I profess to know Adonai's plan. I only said that based on the present Scriptures, if the Temple were still in existance, one would be required to bring sacrifices as an act of faith. Thirdly, in this discussion, I do not think we have had a full discussion of Hebrews. We may have mentioned certain passages here and there, but your point regarding the book of Herews has yet to be proven in the discussion you and I are having.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...and most important of all, can one worship Adonai inwardly without doing so outwardly?
We both know that whatever is inside of you is what comes out of you. That's why it's so important to have the right thing inside of you. For example, does the way you understand the command to 'rest' manifest itself outwardly in your life as a day off from cutting the grass, or what God really had in mind, a good long siesta from doing harm to your neighbor? Now that the spiritual is here, we must conform to the requirements of God in the true spiritual way that the old literal only represented. Remember, we're debating the role of the old laws of worship, not 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The old laws of worship must now be understood in the unveiled truth of 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That truth was there in the law, but it was hard to see. Only in Christ, in the light of day, does it become fully visible. Isaiah 58 is a really good example of veiled NT truth in the OT.
Precisely, so what we do outwardly is important. It is an indication of what is on the inside.
It appears you are holding to loving ones neighbor as ones self as the primary principle. Then worshiping Adonai is not required? Are you also saying, nobody loved their neighbor before Yeshua(Jesus) appeared on earth?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The sacrifices constitute some of Ha Torah and circumcision is a commandment. I agree, to see circumcision as the definitive commandment is to misunderstand Ha Torah. However, to raise Paul's rule to the level of a literal commandment seems to violate your own principle of not keeping "ceremonial commandments".
No, that's not what I'm saying. Paul defends the commands that guard the well-being of our neighbor. He rejects the law of circumcision as a meaningless nothing. How is a literal circumcision an expression of my love for my neighbor? But it's easy to see how spiritual circumcision (the removal of the influence of the flesh from my heart) is indeed an outward and practical benefit to the well-being of my neighbor. Physical circumcision plays no part in that whatsoever.
Again, if I am not required to love Adonai, then I don't need to be concerned about a creature who merely bares His image, or any other commandment for that matter.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If one does not have a clear understanding of what the fundimental principles are and what they mean, the individual rules of living derived from such principles mean nothing.
Nonsense. For instance, a person doesn't need to be circumcised to know and appreciate spiritual circumcision of the heart. Word descriptions are quite adequate. In fact, literal circumcision is a perfect example that defies your argument that acting it out personally is the only way to fully appreciate it the way God intended because 50% of the Church can never experience it anyway, and those of us who have had it done were too young to glean any value out of it! So much for the argument 'you have to actually experience it to glean the full value of it that God reserves for those who actually act it out literally'.
That is not what I said. Let me diagram it using your argument. If one does not have a clear understanding of what the fundimental principles(spiritual circumcision of the heart) are and what they mean, the individual rules of living (a person doesn't need to be circumcised) derived from such principles mean nothing. I said nothing about experience here. If one wishes to have ones conclusions accepted, one must first get assent to ones premiss. So, let's first get agreement on the primary principles of Scripture and then move on to specific examples based on those principles.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If one rejects the Covenant, circumcision is nothing.
If you have accepted the covenant established in Christ's blood, circumcision is nothing! He said physcial circumcision is meaningless if you have already been spiritually circumcised by the Holy Spirit. No act of external worship through any commandment, no matter how required it used to be, can add to the covenant we have by Christ. But there is the danger that it can take away from it! That's what Paul's warning is!
No act of external worship has ever added to the grace of Adonai. They are outward expressions of the inward reality as was stated before.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...is "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” still the founding principle of the Covenant we are to accept or are we adopting another?
Worshiping in Spirit and in Truth is believing in Christ's work on our behalf. It's that simple. And the NT plainly says that that faith manifests itself in love, not in what Festival you observe or what day of the week you go to church on. That's what life in the Spirit in the New Covenant is all about!
I did not ask you to define "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” or state any other conclusions you may have come to. I merely asked if "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth" is still the founding principle or is something else the founding principle, like say "Love your neighbor as yourself" as you said at the beginning of this post.
Now, breaking the discussion into two posts does make it possible to answer a single post in less time. However, we then must look for two posts and try to remember which specific issue goes with each post. I would suggest it might be simpler if we just tried to take this discussion one step at a time and not jump to conclusions or presume to know what the other one is going to say before they say it.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/27/2008 6:05:52 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 6:04:23 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2943
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Love your neighbor as yourself is the absolute foundation of my relationship with God right now. It's the only undebateable and undeniable truth in scripture (except salvation itself). Everything else seems to be open to debate. That's why I've come to where I am today. I've devoted my whole life to the one sure thing that isn't in dispute and which even the Bible says is the most important thing. But what's going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday got to do with that?
Are you sure, we have spent a lot of time and effort discussing the worship of Adonai in spirit and in truth and now you say that loving ones neighbor is more important than that. Doesn't Mattiyahu(Matthew) tell us, (Mt 22:37) Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment." He does go on to say, 39 "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Now, I don't know what going to church has to do with anything, your the one who brought it up. However, this does support my view that any requirement, including going to church if you insist, must have everything to do with one of these commandment.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...What about the context of John 4, the way Yeshua wants us to remember His provision, the sacrifices as tools for rememberence, Adonai's assuring us that keeping Ha Torah is not too difficult, the possible distruction of the Ark of the Covenant...
You see the destruction of the Temple as the unavoidable consequence of man's disobedience, and totally against God's plan to maintain the system of OT worship. I see the destruction of the Temple as God's way of telling us that old way is not valid anymore, and a new way has replaced it. Hebrews bears this out. This is what it means to look at things through the Hebraic mindset vs. the mindset of Christ. Hebrews fully explains the end of the old way in favor of a new and better way. The Hebraic mindset is dead set on preserving the old way that the NT plainly says has now been rendered obsolete (useless).
I do not believe I said that. The distruction of the Temple was not unavoidable, we could have viewed it in the proper prospective, as a tool for exemplifying our faith by actions. Nor did I profess to know Adonai's plan. I only said that based on the present Scriptures, if the Temple were still in existance, one would be required to bring sacrifices as an act of faith. Thirdly, in this discussion, I do not think we have had a full discussion of Hebrews. We may have mentioned certain passages here and there, but your point regarding the book of Herews has yet to be proven in the discussion you and I are having.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...and most important of all, can one worship Adonai inwardly without doing so outwardly?
We both know that whatever is inside of you is what comes out of you. That's why it's so important to have the right thing inside of you. For example, does the way you understand the command to 'rest' manifest itself outwardly in your life as a day off from cutting the grass, or what God really had in mind, a good long siesta from doing harm to your neighbor? Now that the spiritual is here, we must conform to the requirements of God in the true spiritual way that the old literal only represented. Remember, we're debating the role of the old laws of worship, not 'love your neighbor as yourself'. The old laws of worship must now be understood in the unveiled truth of 'love your neighbor as yourself'. That truth was there in the law, but it was hard to see. Only in Christ, in the light of day, does it become fully visible. Isaiah 58 is a really good example of veiled NT truth in the OT.
Precisely, so what we do outwardly is important. It is an indication of what is on the inside.
It appears you are holding to loving ones neighbor as ones self as the primary principle. Then worshiping Adonai is not required? Are you also saying, nobody loved their neighbor before Yeshua(Jesus) appeared on earth?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The sacrifices constitute some of Ha Torah and circumcision is a commandment. I agree, to see circumcision as the definitive commandment is to misunderstand Ha Torah. However, to raise Paul's rule to the level of a literal commandment seems to violate your own principle of not keeping "ceremonial commandments".
No, that's not what I'm saying. Paul defends the commands that guard the well-being of our neighbor. He rejects the law of circumcision as a meaningless nothing. How is a literal circumcision an expression of my love for my neighbor? But it's easy to see how spiritual circumcision (the removal of the influence of the flesh from my heart) is indeed an outward and practical benefit to the well-being of my neighbor. Physical circumcision plays no part in that whatsoever.
Again, if I am not required to love Adonai, then I don't need to be concerned about a creature who merely bares His image, or any other commandment for that matter.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If one does not have a clear understanding of what the fundimental principles are and what they mean, the individual rules of living derived from such principles mean nothing.
Nonsense. For instance, a person doesn't need to be circumcised to know and appreciate spiritual circumcision of the heart. Word descriptions are quite adequate. In fact, literal circumcision is a perfect example that defies your argument that acting it out personally is the only way to fully appreciate it the way God intended because 50% of the Church can never experience it anyway, and those of us who have had it done were too young to glean any value out of it! So much for the argument 'you have to actually experience it to glean the full value of it that God reserves for those who actually act it out literally'.
That is not what I said. Let me diagram it using your argument. If one does not have a clear understanding of what the fundimental principles(spiritual circumcision of the heart) are and what they mean, the individual rules of living (a person doesn't need to be circumcised) derived from such principles mean nothing. I said nothing about experience here. If one wishes to have ones conclusions accepted, one must first get assent to ones premiss. So, let's first get agreement on the primary principles of Scripture and then move on to specific examples based on those principles.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If one rejects the Covenant, circumcision is nothing.
If you have accepted the covenant established in Christ's blood, circumcision is nothing! He said physcial circumcision is meaningless if you have already been spiritually circumcised by the Holy Spirit. No act of external worship through any commandment, no matter how required it used to be, can add to the covenant we have by Christ. But there is the danger that it can take away from it! That's what Paul's warning is!
No act of external worship has ever added to the grace of Adonai. They are outward expressions of the inward reality as was stated before.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...is "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” still the founding principle of the Covenant we are to accept or are we adopting another?
Worshiping in Spirit and in Truth is believing in Christ's work on our behalf. It's that simple. And the NT plainly says that that faith manifests itself in love, not in what Festival you observe or what day of the week you go to church on. That's what life in the Spirit in the New Covenant is all about!
I did not ask you to define "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” or state any other conclusions you may have come to. I merely asked if "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth" is still the founding principle or is something else the founding principle, like say "Love your neighbor as yourself" as you said at the beginning of this post.
Now, breaking the discussion into two posts does make it possible to answer a single post in less time. However, we then must look for two posts and try to remember which specific issue goes with each post. I would suggest it might be simpler if we just tried to take this discussion one step at a time and not jump to conclusions or presume to know what the other one is going to say before they say it.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/27/2008 6:10:36 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 10:03:14 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Greetings,
I am not sure what the tradition is Jesus is speaking of, can you offer and O??
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
LG
Hello Gypsy,
I can O anything you dear heart desires, sure.
Looks to me pretty selfexplanatory, may i humbly ask were you getting with this ?
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Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 10:21:50 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Odel:
But as for excuse to do what people want, you hit the nail in the head BJ,yes, religion is a tricky beast in that regard, it allows to fake righteousness big time. The most religious and strict obeyer’s of the Law on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants.
BJ:
Well, since obediance or disobediance starts in the heart, I would have to say that the religious leaders (those whom Jesus addressed) had a heart problem. They were disobediant on the outward as well as the inward. On some levels anyway. They did pay tithes and said prayers, ect which He said these things you ought to do, but because of the "traditions of the elders", they neglected the "weightier matters of the law".
wisely said, sir! Amen to that, but i would add that it is perfectly possible to neglect "weightier matters of the Law" by obeying the letter of Torah while neglecting the spirit,just as easy as by obeying rabbinical bs, minus spirit of the Law.
The interesting moment here is it is possible to obey the Spirit of the Law without obeying some literal torah laws. It always was ( abraham did it thru faith) and always is( we do it thru faith).
Brotherly love and humbleness, and meekness, longsuffering and patience, peace making - all the fruit of the HS can be revieled in a true believer in many other denominations, not only in some of the Messianic brands. Despite what seems like some Non LTC think :) - that we cant be perfectly pleasing to God in any other traditions, worship structure and church environment but the one they have created for themselves.
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Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 10:39:46 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The word "law" has become a negative term only in our
modern phenomenon. Law and Order are good things.
The primary problem with law, with bad teachings from all sides aren't
the main problem, but something that many are not willing to see, again
from all sides.
The reason is humanity's inherent disobedience or rebellion toward God.
2 Thess. 2:7 ---- "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work."
This epistle was written in 50-52 A.D. some 20 years after the ascension
of Yeshua (Jesus) into Heaven. So it's nothing new. Paul had feelings
his work was in vain, because of the attitudes of his own day where his
teachings were ignored and/or twisted to suit themselves.
Maybe a not-so-theological definition could clear some things up.
Law = "Umbrella"
Grace = "Umbrella"
Keeping Torah would be "under the law (umbrella)" in our modern way
of thinking, just as being "under Grace (umbrella)" would be.
but the meaning in writ is "under law" = subject to the penalties of the Law.
If I keep the law, I'm under the umbrella (blessings, protection).
If I break the law, I'm under the curse of the law (out from under the umbrella).
If I obey God, I'm standing on the Mountain of Blessings.
If I disobey God, I'm standing on the Mountain of Curses.
Personally, I see that as love as well, because once we realize we are on the
wrong mountain, we maneuver back where God intends for us to be from the beginning.
So our world view, per se, or perception of a word affects our thought patterns.
I appreciate your thoughts, Lapie. I would mention here, though, that we ought to be careful not to create the wrong impression LAW and GRACE are interchangable, it goes against Romans 3:21 , etc. which tell us that Law and Grace are mutually exclusive.
I think before i saw on this thread the dangerous pattern of trying to substitute all words of Scripture one of another. Jesus = Torah is a very debatable subject as well..
Spongie, brother, would you mind endorsing the message? Oh tell me I am paranoid and nobody here tried to equate law and grace , it's just my vivid imagination. ( i hope so:)
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Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 11:44:32 AM
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Lapidoth
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Odeliya: I appreciate your thoughts, Lapie. I would mention here, though, that we ought to be careful not to create the wrong impression LAW and GRACE are interchangable, it goes against Romans 3:21 , etc. which tell us that Law and Grace are mutually exclusive.
I think before i saw on this thread the dangerous pattern of trying to substitute all words of Scripture one of another. Jesus = Torah is a very debatable subject as well..
Spongie, brother, would you mind endorsing the message? Oh tell me I am paranoid and nobody here tried to equate law and grace , it's just my vivid imagination. ( i hope so:)
quote:
Lappie: So our world view, per se, or perception of a word affects our thought patterns.
First, thanks for looking at my words and "trying" to hear what I said.
I can dialogue with you. I admit I think abstractly much of the time.
I'm not the final judge as spongie seems to be.
Law and Grace are not the one and same thing, but abstractly they are.
Grace is the message throughout the OT and the NT.
When we use the "word" 'law' we automatically think "opposes grace."
the "Law" brings us to godly sorrow which leads us to repentance.
Law by itself does not lead us to repentance. Law by itself leads us
to a man-made religion. *** Seems like we've been down this road.
Since we seem to only talk over each other, I'll go back to my silent mode.
We can't reason together until we quit proving I'm right and everyone
else is wrong. We can only reason together when we examine what
everyone says, weigh it "IN" the Scriptures, and then come to "saying
the same thing, and doing the same thing; being in one accord and of
one mind."
We truly can do that without being cookie cut from each other.
I perceive everyone in this thread is "none of the above," but we keep
pigeon holing each other as "literal Law-keepers" and complete "anti-law"
groups. A true born again believer will fall into the "none of the above"
labels.
I rebuked an elderly man at church for calling all Sunday-keepers as
"Sun Worshipers." And he hasn't been back since. So, if the sun-worshipers
will stop calling me a literal law keeper, and I quit calling sunday-keepers
sun-worshipers, we can get on about the Kingdom Business.
It's time we truly examined "ourselves."
The mirror of the Word will take the beam and the speck out of our eye.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 6/27/2008 11:55:22 AM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 11:48:08 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Romans 3:21 (KJV)
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:21 (NLT)
But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his
sight ---- not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the
Scriptures long ago.
Romans 3:22 (NLT)
"We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ
to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way,
no matter who we are or what we have done."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 12:42:39 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I perceive everyone in this thread is "none of the above," but we keep
pigeon holing each other as "literal Law-keepers" and complete "anti-law"
groups. A true born again believer will fall into the "none of the above"
labels.
Lap, sorry, dear, i meant to offence, we sort of half jokingly using working terms TC and NON LTC just to roughly separate the two opposing sides in a debate. it's just a name, like "Chicago Bears".
We can Be Golani and Givati, you choose names, i'll take it. Just for convinience, i perfectly well know that you are indie. But still, even with all the liberalism and differences, people fall into one or another camp in this issue. You cant be both camps at the same time.
quote:
We can't reason together until we quit proving I'm right and everyone
else is wrong.
that is another point - i say that we all are right as long as we growing in grace; regardless in what denom we are and what we eat on Pesah.
I am open to hear arguments why it is not so.I i already know we will never argee, the point for me is to learn the positions of others.
quote:
i rebuked an elderly man at church for calling all Sunday-keepers as
"Sun Worshipers." And he hasn't been back since.
Excellent, Lord be praised! If the grumpy old gizzard still doesnt know it himself, he is clearly a spiritual babe that needs his spiritual diapers changed. Do you have time for that in the congregation ? Glad he left.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 12:45:23 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 3107
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Law and Grace are not the one and same thing, but abstractly they are.
Grace is the message throughout the OT and the NT.
When we use the "word" 'law' we automatically think "opposes grace."
the "Law" brings us to godly sorrow which leads us to repentance.
Law by itself does not lead us to repentance. Law by itself leads us
to a man-made religion.
In that we totally agree.
_____________________________
Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you were you should go.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 1:08:19 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5740
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
We can Be Golani and Givati, you choose names, i'll take it.
Okay. I'll take "right" and you take "wrong." JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Law and Grace are not the one and same thing, but abstractly they are.
Grace is the message throughout the OT and the NT.
When we use the "word" 'law' we automatically think "opposes grace."
the "Law" brings us to godly sorrow which leads us to repentance.
Law by itself does not lead us to repentance. Law by itself leads us
to a man-made religion.
quote:
In that we totally agree.
I'm actually confident we all do.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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