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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 1:10:11 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Excellent, Lord be praised! If the grumpy old gizzard still doesnt know it himself, he is clearly a spiritual babe that needs his spiritual diapers changed. Do you have time for that in the congregation ? Glad he left.
I might have the time, but I don't take the time with a babe
that holds onto the nasty diaper with bare whited knuckles. lol.
Every one else is glad too.
But, we have learned valuable lessons from the episodes.
And continue to do so. As long as we continue to search.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 2:41:45 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 113
Joined: 12/10/2007
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quote:
wisely said, sir! Amen to that, but i would add that it is perfectly possible to neglect "weightier matters of the Law" by obeying the letter of Torah while neglecting the spirit,just as easy as by obeying rabbinical bs, minus spirit of the Law.
The interesting moment here is it is possible to obey the Spirit of the Law without obeying some literal torah laws. It always was ( abraham did it thru faith) and always is( we do it thru faith).
WISE?! ME?! Awww man, I need to go back to my old self, darnit!  lol
Just an FYI, the rabbinical laws were outside God's commandments. And actualy, the scriptures say in Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So Abraham indeed did obey literaly and thru faith. Gotta have both or we would become the sect of Pharisees that said on one had I believe but with the outward showing and without faith at all. I have faith, therefore I do. Heh, reminds me of a song "work your faith".
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 4:30:58 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...It is interesting that many churches put great ritual significance to the regular observance of “communion”, yet find fault with the Seder from which it is derived.
What we find fault in is the insistance that we must do it according to Jewish tradition, and do it in order to have some supposed benefit that God only gives to those who do it that way. It just isn't true.
Nowhere in this conversation have I stated that one must keep Jewish tradition. I only pointed out that "communion" is derived from the Pesach Seder. It is interesting then that the Pesach Seder is seen as overly restrictive, yet the rituals of "communion" are not. Given your objections to ceremony, I would expect that you would not care how one practices "communion" either, so I will not press that point here.
Greetings,
quote:
I would expect that you would not care how one practices "communion" either, so I will not press that point here.
I’ll take that over BT,
Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.
I am not sure I see a difference in ceremony when in remembrance by keeping the Lords Passover.
Well the communion in part seems to be no different than the Ex Passover; it seems to be kept in the Spirit of the law as did the ceremony itself.
And when we look at the lamb that was sacrificed in the Ex Passover; the lamb was kept as a part of the family so to speak, then betrayed....
……….Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight.
To move on….
Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
Now we can also see by definition in the passages below; that any other way as described would be what Paul called an unworthy manner above.
……..Exodus 12:v7 And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it.
8 Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9 Do not eat it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roasted in fire--its head with its legs and its entrails.
10 You shall let none of it remain until morning, and what remains of it until morning you shall burn with fire.
Moving on…..
Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
The only thing that seemed to change in the Lords Passover is an addition to the original; not a subtraction,
Because in the Ex Passover what is not seen is there was no judgment attached to the instructions given by Moses in the passages of Exodus 12:v7 above in comparison to…. Corinthians 11:32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
….And that was because of the covering written in the context of v 31-34 of Jeremiah 31:27-34 seen in the first part of verse v32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,
SO there was only a covering seen in the Ex Passover and not yet a judgment given until Christ came which Paul spoke of in the contexts of Corinthians 11 above.
I don’t see a change either in the principals of the ceremonial laws as mentioned in Post #: 3713 saying…..And since we all agree the law has changed (animal sacrifice and circumcision), and heaven and earth are still here,
Because when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned;
SO..........the addition is in house; and is the same in Christ; as when He struck the Egyptians in Ex 12:27 as in v 29 Corinthians 11...
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
So
30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
Tells me the principals of the ceremonial law by their fulfillments alone are very much in affect in the Body of Christ??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 4:46:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
quote:
wisely said, sir! Amen to that, but i would add that it is perfectly possible to neglect "weightier matters of the Law" by obeying the letter of Torah while neglecting the spirit,just as easy as by obeying rabbinical bs, minus spirit of the Law.
The interesting moment here is it is possible to obey the Spirit of the Law without obeying some literal torah laws. It always was ( abraham did it thru faith) and always is( we do it thru faith).
WISE?! ME?! Awww man, I need to go back to my old self, darnit! lol
Just an FYI, the rabbinical laws were outside God's commandments. And actualy, the scriptures say in Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So Abraham indeed did obey literaly and thru faith. Gotta have both or we would become the sect of Pharisees that said on one had I believe but with the outward showing and without faith at all. I have faith, therefore I do. Heh, reminds me of a song "work your faith".
Greetings,
quote:
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
And that was pre Moses; or based on The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: ùáò îöååú áðé ðç, Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), often referred to as the Noahide Laws
And other Important Events that Took place on Feast of First Fruits
a) Noah's Ark landed on Mt. Ararat (Genesis 8:4).
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 5:36:36 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5731
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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LOL. I was figuring in "inflation."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 5:36:50 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
I do not believe I said that. The distruction of the Temple was not unavoidable, we could have viewed it in the proper prospective, as a tool for exemplifying our faith by actions. Nor did I profess to know Adonai's plan. I only said that based on the present Scriptures, if the Temple were still in existance, one would be required to bring sacrifices as an act of faith. Thirdly, in this discussion, I do not think we have had a full discussion of Hebrews. We may have mentioned certain passages here and there, but your point regarding the book of Herews has yet to be proven in the discussion you and I are having.
So you just threw out Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Not to mention Hebrews, Pauls letters and Peters letters too. I just don't understand you guy's mind on the death and resurrection of the one you call Yeshua. Also I forgot the writings in Acts that Mark did.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 7:31:24 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2934
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
So you just threw out Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Not to mention Hebrews, Pauls letters and Peters letters too. I just don't understand you guy's mind on the death and resurrection of the one you call Yeshua. Also I forgot the writings in Acts that Mark did.
Usually, I don't have the opportunity for side comments and I don't want to lose the train of thought with spongeblog. If you have been following, I have not thrown out the Apistolic Writngs. The sacrifices are a means of repentance and thanksgiving not salvation. So, if it were possible, making sacrifices in the manner prescribed by Adonai would just be a sign of faith as a mikvah(baptism) is. Therefore, if baptism does not denigh the redemptive work of Ha Meshiach, then a proper sacrific would not either. If I do not continue this discussion with you, I hope you will understand. I have an agreement to not get distracted in my conversation with spongeblog.
PS The sacrifices were being done on a daily basis during th time recorded in the Gospels. I don't recall Yeshua saying they were not to be done. In fact, I think at least once He made a great point out of saying what wasn't allowed in the Temple. He could have said something then, but He didn't.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/27/2008 7:54:04 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 10:20:57 PM
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pastor79553
Posts: 2
Joined: 6/26/2008
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The Law given by GOD to Moses does not oppose Grace. The Law is the guidelines by which GOD would have us live. Grace is an attribute of GOD's character. Yeshua (Jesus) said in Matthew 5. 17-20 that the Law would remain until all has been fulfilled. He said that whoever broke the least commandment and taught others to do so would be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever did them would be great in the kingdom of heaven. And in Matthew 19.17 in response to the question, " What good thing must I do to inherit eternal life?", Yeshua said to OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. In Psalms 119.9 King David asked how a young man my cleanse his, or keep them pure. He said, " By taking heed according to Thy word." So the Law is an important part of our lives. I advise: learn it, live it, and above all love it.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 10:56:59 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
(V.18) - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest
letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
KJV rendered it "till all be fulfilled."
Fulfilled in v.18 is not 'pleroo', but 'gignomai' [to become (Thayer)].
Fulfilled is a misleading translation in our language, and the Messiah says until
all is accomplished that the smallest letter and stroke, of the Torah, will not pass
away. Heaven and Earth will pass away before the Torah passes away.
Much more than just the smallest letter or stroke of the pen has passed from the law, and heaven and earth are still here. So that means whatever Jesus said must be accomplished before even the least of the law can pass away must have happened. What was that?
Greetings
What was that?
quote:
So that means whatever Jesus said must be accomplished before even the least of the law can pass away must have happened.
The way the Bible pictures it, is Jesus on the cross said it was finished,
Passover (Pesach)
Sacrificial Death
Unleavened Bread
Burial
Day of First Fruits
Resurrection
Fifty (50) Days later
Feast of Weeks (Pentecost)
You see….. For some reason theological reasoning seems to leave out the order that these occurred ….whereby it is written that the disciples received the HS in the very same day Jesus appeared to Mary
1 Sacrificial Death, the Burial ...and 3 days “later” the Resurrection, where He rose from the dead
2 That very same day He breathed the breath of life into them and they received the HS.... (as in Genesis) in other words the disciples ....were Born Again!
3 50 days from then; they received the promise of the Father
(in which you still have not given a definitive answer in your speculation that I have no Idea what it is)
It looks like all of those 3
Passover (Pesach)
Unleavened Bread
Day of First Fruits, was fulfilled....
Therefore…this leaves the other feasts....beginning with Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) because Pentecost is a major festival and has a dual significance
SO to quote
quote:
V.18) - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law.... until all is accomplished."
Because the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) is a major festival and has a dual significance
Then the promise of the Father and the harvest remains until the fall feasts; that have not come to their tuitions
...therefore the Law is still alive and well as the verse18 says
…..so… I guess that is what “until all is accomplished”… means.
??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/27/2008 11:46:09 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I only pointed out that "communion" is derived from the Pesach Seder. It is interesting then that the Pesach Seder is seen as overly restrictive...
No, not restrictive, just meaningless now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I will not submit to your image of who I am because it is presumptious and wrong in so many ways. I had hoped to avoid the endless listing of specific commands and the inevitable search for that one command that I may not be keeping as you think I should given your prejudiced view of who I am and what I think.
The following is something you said earlier, yet you don't want to be considered a literal law keeper as I define it?:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If He chooses to change the rules He can, but I do not see that He has yet.
I don't know how you can say nothing's changed in regard to obedience to literal Torah and then resent being called a literal law keeper. Until you have a chance to fully explain yourself it'll be hard to know how you are different from other Messianics.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do not require anyone to "go to church on Saturday", or any other day for that matter. I do not believe either that activity or that time period is Scriptural.
It'd be interesting to see you and Lapie hammer this one out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I also do not require others to observe the Pesach Seder. In fact, I would discourage anyone who is hostle to the idea from taking part, because it would be an abomination for them to do so.
Hostile isn't the right word. Disinterested in favor of higher understanding is a better way to understand it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding sleeping with another man's wife, I believe there a some unitarian swingers who believe this harms no one either. In fact, they may use the "law of love" to justify such behavior as insuring the well-being of ones neighbor.
Well, you and me probably agree they know nothing about godly love. I don't feel compelled to defend the activities of people who probably aren't even born again and don't represent the mainline church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...it appears that you are saying that how we approach Adonai is mere ritual, while how we treat our brother is moral. If it matters not how I treat Adonai, then why should I care about how I treat some creature that happens to bear His image?
How you treat your neighbor is how you treat God.
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matt. 25:40)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...we have spent a lot of time and effort discussing the worship of Adonai in spirit and in truth and now you say that loving ones neighbor is more important than that. Doesn't Mattiyahu(Matthew) tell us, (Mt 22:37) Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment." He does go on to say, 39 "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Now, I don't know what going to church has to do with anything, your the one who brought it up. However, this does support my view that any requirement, including going to church if you insist, must have everything to do with one of these commandment.
But Mattiyahoo also said this...
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matt. 5:23-24)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It appears you are holding to loving ones neighbor as ones self as the primary principle. Then worshiping Adonai is not required?
Loving your neighbor is your worship of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Are you also saying, nobody loved their neighbor before Yeshua(Jesus) appeared on earth?
No, of course not. But the law provided only a limited understanding to grasp and perform the true will of God for man, and lead him to the true worship God desires. Only in Christ by the Holy Spirit can a person be everything God wants him to be. The law was powerless to do that. Not that it didn't represent good and holy truths and principles. It's just that it had little power to move a person to those truths.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...if I am not required to love Adonai, then I don't need to be concerned about a creature who merely bares His image, or any other commandment for that matter.
Loving your neighbor is loving Adonai. In fact, love for your neighbor is the measure of your love for Adonai.
"If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God..." (1 John 4:20)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...No act of external worship has ever added to the grace of Adonai. They are outward expressions of the inward reality as was stated before.
What you don't understand is what the outward expression of the inward reality is. For example, literal circumcision is not the outward expression, or proof of inward circumcision. Since Paul calls circumcision of the heart 'the putting off of the sin nature' it follows that the outward expression of that inward reality is loving your neighbor as yourself, not cutting the foreskin off of the penis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I did not ask you to define "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” or state any other conclusions you may have come to. I merely asked if "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth" is still the founding principle or is something else the founding principle, like say "Love your neighbor as yourself" as you said at the beginning of this post.
Loving your neighbor as yourself is worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. A changed heart that 'does no harm to it's neighbor' is the altar from which we offer spiritual sacrifices to God. The aroma of which is pleasing to Him.
Christ in us by the Holy Spirit and released through all our deeds is the pleasing aroma that goes up to God as the acceptable sacrifice and worship He desires. Once a person can truly see this with the eyes of their spirit, outward ceremonies and procedures take their proper place in the life of a believer, way way behind what God really wants, and what really counts. Christ (through righteous deeds of love by the Holy Spirit) is what we give back to God as the pleasing worship God desires. That is what it means to worship in 'Spirit and in Truth'.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/27/2008 11:52:38 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 5:13:39 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2934
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I only pointed out that "communion" is derived from the Pesach Seder. It is interesting then that the Pesach Seder is seen as overly restrictive...
No, not restrictive, just meaningless now.
Then do you believe "communion" is meaningless?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I will not submit to your image of who I am because it is presumptious and wrong in so many ways. I had hoped to avoid the endless listing of specific commands and the inevitable search for that one command that I may not be keeping as you think I should given your prejudiced view of who I am and what I think.
The following is something you said earlier, yet you don't want to be considered a literal law keeper as I define it?:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If He chooses to change the rules He can, but I do not see that He has yet.
I don't know how you can say nothing's changed in regard to obedience to literal Torah and then resent being called a literal law keeper. Until you have a chance to fully explain yourself it'll be hard to know how you are different from other Messianics.
Then why don't you wait for me to fully explain myself before labelling me. You seem to like to group people into "camps" rather than treat them as individuals. Though the sins of the fathers can be visited unpon the sons, each is to be judged on his own merits. To label those who call themselves Messianics and I as "literal law keepers" is not literally correct. Many Messianics hold to the historical/gramatical/literal method of hermenutics, as do I. To label such individuals as "literal law keepers" is to imply that they have no sense of history or grammar.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do not require anyone to "go to church on Saturday", or any other day for that matter. I do not believe either that activity or that time period is Scriptural.
It'd be interesting to see you and Lapie hammer this one out.
I am not talking to Lapie here. So, please respond to the statement on its merits not its popularity.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I also do not require others to observe the Pesach Seder. In fact, I would discourage anyone who is hostle to the idea from taking part, because it would be an abomination for them to do so.
Hostile isn't the right word. Disinterested in favor of higher understanding is a better way to understand it.
I am speaking in general, not you specifically. A disinterested person is not an issue, since they would not be in my home for the Seder anyway.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Regarding sleeping with another man's wife, I believe there a some unitarian swingers who believe this harms no one either. In fact, they may use the "law of love" to justify such behavior as insuring the well-being of ones neighbor.
Well, you and me probably agree they know nothing about godly love. I don't feel compelled to defend the activities of people who probably aren't even born again and don't represent the mainline church.
Says you and I. However, on what basis can we say they are wrong in considering adultry a "ceremonial law". After all there is a marrage ceremony.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...it appears that you are saying that how we approach Adonai is mere ritual, while how we treat our brother is moral. If it matters not how I treat Adonai, then why should I care about how I treat some creature that happens to bear His image?
How you treat your neighbor is how you treat God.
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matt. 25:40)
The question is do we derive our view of man from observing Adonai or do we derive our view of Adonai from viewing man?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...we have spent a lot of time and effort discussing the worship of Adonai in spirit and in truth and now you say that loving ones neighbor is more important than that. Doesn't Mattiyahu(Matthew) tell us, (Mt 22:37) Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment." He does go on to say, 39 "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Now, I don't know what going to church has to do with anything, your the one who brought it up. However, this does support my view that any requirement, including going to church if you insist, must have everything to do with one of these commandment.
But Mattiyahoo also said this...
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matt. 5:23-24)
Mattiyahu(Matthew) did not say that Yeshua did. I am not denying the second commandment. I was just wondering why you chose to bypass what Yeshua called "the first and greatest commandment" for the second.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It appears you are holding to loving ones neighbor as ones self as the primary principle. Then worshiping Adonai is not required?
Loving your neighbor is your worship of God.
So, private prayer is ceremonial and therefore not needed? Personal study is ceremonial and unneeded? When Adam walked with Adonai in the garden that was ceremonial and not needed?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Are you also saying, nobody loved their neighbor before Yeshua(Jesus) appeared on earth?
No, of course not. But the law provided only a limited understanding to grasp and perform the true will of God for man, and lead him to the true worship God desires. Only in Christ by the Holy Spirit can a person be everything God wants him to be. The law was powerless to do that. Not that it didn't represent good and holy truths and principles. It's just that it had little power to move a person to those truths.
We have been over this before. Doesn't Re 13:8 tell us that the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world? Also, wasn't Ha Ruach(The Spirit) with men throughout the Scriptures? In fact doesn't Ha Torah say, Gen 5:24 "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." Can any of us say we are that close to Adonai? If Yeshua and Ha Ruach were available before Ha Torah was written down, then why would He not have been available to those between the time of Moshe and Yeshuas appearing?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...if I am not required to love Adonai, then I don't need to be concerned about a creature who merely bares His image, or any other commandment for that matter.
Loving your neighbor is loving Adonai. In fact, love for your neighbor is the measure of your love for Adonai.
"If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God..." (1 John 4:20)
I do admit loving ones neighbor is a measure of ones love for Adonai. However, there are many philanthropic Atheists who have no love for Adonai. Not to mention those who serve other gods.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...No act of external worship has ever added to the grace of Adonai. They are outward expressions of the inward reality as was stated before.
What you don't understand is what the outward expression of the inward reality is. For example, literal circumcision is not the outward expression, or proof of inward circumcision. Since Paul calls circumcision of the heart 'the putting off of the sin nature' it follows that the outward expression of that inward reality is loving your neighbor as yourself, not cutting the foreskin off of the penis.
I do not understand why we must get bogged down with the specifics of one commandment before we have agreed on the basis for the commandments. I am not arguing for or against circumcision at his point. I am trying to determine what is the central guiding principle of ones life.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I did not ask you to define "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth” or state any other conclusions you may have come to. I merely asked if "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth" is still the founding principle or is something else the founding principle, like say "Love your neighbor as yourself" as you said at the beginning of this post.
Loving your neighbor as yourself is worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. A changed heart that 'does no harm to it's neighbor' is the altar from which we offer spiritual sacrifices to God. The aroma of which is pleasing to Him.
Christ in us by the Holy Spirit and released through all our deeds is the pleasing aroma that goes up to God as the acceptable sacrifice and worship He desires. Once a person can truly see this with the eyes of their spirit, outward ceremonies and procedures take their proper place in the life of a believer, way way behind what God really wants, and what really counts. Christ (through righteous deeds of love by the Holy Spirit) is what we give back to God as the pleasing worship God desires. That is what it means to worship in 'Spirit and in Truth'.
I agree that all other laws, ceremonies and procedures must follow from ones core belief. That is why I have been trying to determine what our core belief is, before moving on to specific commandments.
Now, do you believe that the first commandment is included in the second commandment, the second commandment is the totality of the first commandment, or as Yeshua says, the second is like the first?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/28/2008 5:47:36 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:26:14 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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LGyp,
I'm rushing out today (going on a train ride through the great Upper Cumberland...choo, choo!) so I only have time for this:
If the 'accomplishment' hasn't occurred yet, why then did the law change? Jesus said that between now and the end of heaven and earth the only thing that could change the law was that all be accomplished. So, if you say the accomplishment hasn't occurred yet, why did the law change? And before you say it didn't change...do I need to list all the things we could reasonably agree on that have changed that don't depend on the presence of the literal Temple in Jerusalem, and which are thoroughly explained as being changed in scripture?)
I contend that the fulfillment of the law is the accomplishment Jesus spoke of. We both agree Jesus came to fulfill the law. That's not a point of contention (what exactly that means is in contention, of course). Now we need to hammer out the issue of whether or not the thing that must be 'accomplished' before anything can change in the law is indeed Christ's fuflillment of the law as 'accomplished' in His work on the cross.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 2:52:01 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Greetings,
I am not sure what the tradition is Jesus is speaking of, can you offer and O??
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
LG
Hello Gypsy,
I can O anything you dear heart desires, sure.
Looks to me pretty self-explanatory, may I humbly ask were you getting with this?
Greetings,
After I asked the above
You mentioned in part
quote:
The most religious and strict obeyer’s of the Law on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, …..Managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants.
I am good with this part here
quote:
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
And I understand this part; whereby the traditions of the elders by what the say caused one not to honor his father or mother, and when receiving what the elders said to do would give up the individual for the curse.
(Typical Church doctrine of those who practice works)
quote:
4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
6 then he need not honor his father or mother.'
This explains it…
quote:
7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
It seems being Jesus was addressing scribes and Pharisees who came …saying…and in that; by what they said;
was more of the transgression of the Law, than the heart of the Law itself.
And I understand that which Jesus reiterates to us by revelation; as the washing of their hearts is required of them to eat His Bread; and by not doing so the elders by making tradition in the likeness of the washing of their hands “before” they eat bread.... is a transgress of the commandment of God therefore stealing the glory from God; and is nothing but an act of works,
Therefore." …’these people…. draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
However, I don’t see our Messianic friends here keeping such tradition...
quote:
Looks to me pretty self-explanatory, may I humbly ask were you getting with this?
Well….in Lu 24:27 ….by the HS….says…..
And ....beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, Jesus expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself
(This is the best statement in the whole Bible IMO)
28 Then they reviled him and said, "You are His disciple, but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from."
30 The man answered and said to them, "Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes!
Since Moses wrote about Jesus; and Moses disciples had no clue where He was from; …..
…..I was just wondering where the in the Law of Moses the traditions of the elders (whom strayed so far from the truth) trickled down from;
.....Or where those traditions were based in the Law of Moses… ?
Now that our eyes have been opened! ….
So far I have not been able to find those traditions in the Law of Moses that the elders kept.
So I asked
quote:
I am not sure what the tradition is Jesus is speaking of, can you offer and O??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:03:27 PM
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Wskybtl
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I have witnessed allot of debates on the law of our God. Often wondering why people are so adamant about their stand. We need to see both sides. Yes, every dot and tittle remains. What many don’t see is that Jesus is both the first and the last. The Old Testament and the New Testament testifies of Jesus. The Old Testament testifies to His Lordship, the New, His Sonship.
Think of it like this. Jesus did as He saw His Father do. God stood upon the Mount and gave His Commandments (Ten Commandments), Jesus did likewise, only we call His Commandments, The Sermon on the Mount.
When Jesus was resurrected, God put Him in charge of everything in both heaven and earth. If Jesus kept His Fathers law when He was here, He keeps it in heaven, will He keep it when He returns?
Grace is given to all children. They don’t know, nor can they understand the law. But there comes a time in every child’s life where they are expected to learn. I do believe we are to learn the customs, ways, laws of God because they are the customs, ways and laws of Jesus as well.
When one reads the law, they soon can see that many of those laws are given to Israel, as a nation. That is why no one person can keep the whole law. But we, as a nation under God, can simply because in Him, we can do all things.
We should stop slamming those who choose to learn of their Father’s ways. Let’s encourage each other to grow in Him as much as possible and stop trying to hurt one another. He takes each of us as fast as we can go. Some are not ready for the law. Others are more than ready. Either way, Jesus gives even children correction when He tell them to keep His Commandments even as He kept His Father’s.
Their study begins by searching just how Jesus kept His Father’s Commandments. Think He just tried to do them? Read Deuteronomy 6:8 or 11:17. There you can read exactly how Jesus did it. Then follow Him and do as He did.
I really hopes this helps, and that it isn’t too long. Sorry if it is. I have a hard time explaining things.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:08:29 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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I asked this question before, but I'm pretty sure nobody ever answered it, so I'll give it another shot...
For those of you who advocate all Christians following all of the Law, how do you respond to Acts 15, pertaining especially to the Council at Jerusalem's letter to Gentile believers?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:42:24 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 798
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Here's a repost...we've answered alot of these type of questions before it just doesn't seem to satisfy those who are one the other side.
quote:
Glad you asked.
What I believe the Church leaders meant - and they are the ones who chose the word "burden," not me - is that the observances that the Jewish believers followed were burdens to Gentiles because they were not given or intended for them. I'm not going to give an opinion on Jewish believers, because I'm not one. But it's obvious that the Apostles and NT Church leaders considered the many observances of Jews to be burdens for Gentiles.-Jimbo
Here's a portion of the verse you are talking about: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses
When you understand that the "sect of the Pharisees" adhered to both the written Torah of the Bible and the Oral Torah (i.e Talmud, Mishna...) of the elders...it's easy to see what the contention was over. The written Torah of the Bible and the Oral Law are both considered in Judiasm as the Law of Moses. It was the Oral Law that was the burden not God's Torah in the Bible. In fact Jesus rebuked them harshly in Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Oral Law) 8 For laying aside the commandment of God( the written word of God, the TaNaKH), ye hold the tradition of men(Oral Law), as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject F25 the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye... This is YAH's response to those who make void His Commandment through tradition!
Acts 15 was a salvation matter that was being address. Do we need to be circumcised after the traditions of the Oral Law and adhere to it in order to be saved? That was the contention! We know that circumsion does not save! Abraham was accounted righteous well before circumcision... So circumsion of any sorts (after the Torah or the Oral Torah) does not save you!! Here's a qoute from a site regarding conversion to Judiasm, "quote:
5. CIRCUMCISION
The specific requirements for conversion and their order need to be discussed with a rabbi. One requirement for males who wish to be converted by an Orthodox or Conservative rabbi is circumcision, or brit milah. If a circumcision has already been performed, the Orthodox and Conservative movements require that a drop of blood be drawn as a symbolic circumcision. This ceremony is called Hatafat Dam Brit. The Reform and Reconstructionist movements generally do not require a circumcision as part of the conversion process."
This is a requirement for new converts now and was a requirement for new converts how wanted to convert to Judaism in Jesus' day. This is what Paul disputes more or less.
Mt 23:4 - Show Context
For they bind heavy burdens (commandments of man i.e. Oral Law) and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Lu 11:46 - Show Context
And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
Jesus says that His yoke is easy and burden (Torah-teachings and instructions) light.
They are hard to you and others because of a lack of understanding of the scriptures. There is nothing wrong with the Word of God! The new covenant is not God amending the scriptures to cater to man but rather God amending our hearts and forgiving our sins so that we may cater to Him.
Selah!!
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/2/2008 3:17:45 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 9:55:51 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 798
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Wskybtl,
Torah is not hard to understand. Many believers keep it for the most part...they just don't realize it. The church and is one in the same. We non-Jews are grafted into the household of Israel by adoption. Questions regarding the sacrifices and stoning for breaking certain commandments have been discussed indepth.
My question to you is this...When the 12 apostles and Yahshua were on the scene, what scriptures were available to them to teach frrom. The OT or TaNaKH. This was read in the synagogues and it was referred to as the scriptures. The NT quotes very heavily from the OT because they taught Torah to there followers...they did not teach any of the Oral Laws taught by the pharisees which was consider = to the written Law of the OT. Read the gospels, Mark 7...Jesus refutes this alot and so does Paul. Terminology such as "under the law", "works of the law" and such languauge refer to the Oral Law and the customs of the rabbi's as being binding upon a person. It was this "yoke" that was the burden and not the Torah of the Bible.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/28/2008 10:04:21 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 798
Joined: 11/30/2007
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here's an interesting link: http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/
Our fellow Jewish brethren face persecution frrom family members and frfiends who are Jewish when they accept Christ as Messiah...continue to pray for our brethern. Amen!
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/28/2008 10:11:32 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 9:11:45 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wskybtl
...Yes, every dot and tittle remains.
If this is true, it would be unbearable to even consider living under the authority of Leviticus 15. But since you believe every jot and tittle remains, don't you find it a burden being so meticulous about avoiding everybody who is unclean and the things they touch, and going through all the cleaning procedures when you come in contact with unclean things and people? Not to mention that you are cutoff from God and your fellow believers during times of uncleanness and cleansing.
No, thanks. Thank God for the New Covenant.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wskybtl
Grace is given to all children. They don’t know, nor can they understand the law. But there comes a time in every child’s life where they are expected to learn. I do believe we are to learn the customs, ways, laws of God because they are the customs, ways and laws of Jesus as well.
...We should stop slamming those who choose to learn of their Father’s ways. Let’s encourage each other to grow in Him as much as possible and stop trying to hurt one another. He takes each of us as fast as we can go. Some are not ready for the law. Others are more than ready. Either way, Jesus gives even children correction when He tell them to keep His Commandments even as He kept His Father’s.
Are you aware that the Bible says the exact opposite of what you are suggesting here? Paul says the law leads children to maturity in Christ, not Christ leads children to the law. The supervision of law is for the immature. Mature believers are self controlled by the Spirit.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 9:25:50 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 842
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then do you believe "communion" is meaningless?
No. John 6 makes it crystal clear what it means in regard to the work that Christ did for me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...on what basis can we say they are wrong in considering adultry a "ceremonial law". After all there is a marrage ceremony.
This is a very good example of how people get mislead and deceived by thinking religious ceremonial conduct and external worship procedures and beliefs are more important than walking in the character of Christ as exemplified in the fruit of the Spirit. My experience has shown that people who exalt the externals over the fruit of the Spirit don't even know about the fruit of the Spirit as being the supreme will of God for the believer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The question is do we derive our view of man from observing Adonai or do we derive our view of Adonai from viewing man?
Neither. We derive our view of man (how we should treat him) by how God has loved us first.
"We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)
His agape type of love towards us is the pattern from which we learn to love others. It has nothing to do with external modes and methods of worship.
I'll be back to the rest of your post later.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 10:28:44 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Here's a repost...
Thank you. I sort of imagined, with 150 pages, that this passage had been brought up before. ; )
quote:
When you understand that the "sect of the Pharisees" adhered to both the written Torah of the Bible and the Oral Torah (i.e Talmud, Mishna...) of the elders...it's easy to see what the contention was over. The written Torah of the Bible and the Oral Law are both considered in Judiasm as the Law of Moses. It was the Oral Law that was the burden not God's Torah in the Bible.
If this is the case, then why did the Church leaders in Jerusalem not write them to follow the written Torah? They wrote them very specific instructions for them to follow (in my opinion, only to not be offensive to their Jewish bretheren), which certainly do not encapsulate all the rules found in the Law.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 12:07:47 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
here's an interesting link: http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/
Our fellow Jewish brethren face persecution from family members and friends who are Jewish when they accept Christ as Messiah...continue to pray for our brethren. Amen!
Greetings,
Interesting site, they have it correct that a sinner can not die for the sins of another sinner,
But seem to fall short of the understanding that God is Spirit and there is no sin in Him, therefore it is only God who can offer that sacrifice. 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Pushes a totally different switch ...so to speak!
According to the prophetic scripture the majority is not going to see that until Jesus returns;
Joh 20:26 - Show Context
And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!"
Joh 20:27 - Show Context
Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
IMHO; I believe Thomas is more a picture of the Jew seeing Jesus for the first time which is actually the second time…which could be viewed after the rapture; when Thomas was not present the first time; by the scripture saying And after eight days His disciples were “again” (2nd time) inside, and Thomas with them,
18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?
20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God,
and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
Frankly I cannot see why the messianic understanding of both the keeping Law in Christ (where such power comes form) ….should be viewed and qualify them as making offering to both the Lord's table and of the table of demons…. aren’t both aspects to the same God???
I mean I have recently discovered in the scriptures; that it was a messianic; in which God drew Paul (a Pharisee) to for Paul’s anointing,
So in like manner I see that likeness; as described in the book of revelation; of the 144, 000.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 12:10:41 PM
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Wskybtl
Posts: 2
Joined: 6/28/2008
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The only part I would disagree with Lbolt, is that the Law is not hard to understand. It can be. I do see that we are to keep the law. But unlike many of those who keep the law, I believe in keeping the whole law. Even the sacrifices, even the New Testament.
The “oral law” from their “rabbis” were worn. This is what I was attempting to explain. When one goes to Jesus, wanting Jesus to teach them, they can wear the oral or spoken words of Jesus the same way Jesus wore His Father’s Commandments. As the students wore their Rabbi’s spoken words.
We know Jesus did as it is written in Deuteronomy 6:8 or 11:17. He wore His Father’s Commandments by wearing them upon His forehead and hand. And we, keeping the custom of wearing Commandments, take the oral, spoken words of Jesus and wear them in like manner. Doing as Jesus did with His Father’s Commandments.
Jesus is our Rabbi, our Teacher and He spoke upon the Mount just as His Father. When we “keep” those words in like manner, we dwell in the love of Jesus, just as He dwells in the love of His Father. We declare Him our Teacher.
It was the Old Testament which was used in those days. But many don’t understand the term, Jesus is The Word of God. That Word that God spoke, that He wrote with His finger (the Ten Commandments), is who Jesus is. For God took His Word and made Him flesh.
When one puts on the Commandments of Jesus, they put on Christ. (spirit)
When one puts on the Commandments of God, they put on Jesus. (truth)
Just as Jesus tells us His words are spirit.
John 6:63 …: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
God tells us His is truth.
Psalm 119:151Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
So to have the spirit and the truth, one would be keeping the “oral”, or spoken words of both Jesus and God, in the same manner given us as an example by Jesus. We take the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 -7) given us by Jesus, The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) given us by God, bind them, and wear them upon our forehead and hand.
To be in Jesus Christ, they would be wearing God’s spoken words of both the Old Testament, and New. Jesus plays with the strings of our hearts when He says in John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
If you love someone, you want to please them. So we “keep” His Commandments, cling to them as a cherished gift from our Father. His burden is light. We don’t ask others to do what we do. I don’t even know what most do. I just know when we went to God, He instructed us what to do and we do it. I am not looking for trouble, don’t mind answering what questions I can. Even at that, I can only tell you all, what we do. He will let you know what he wants you to do.
By sharing how we see Scripture, we each can learn from one another. He found a place for those of the Old Testament, those of the New, surely He will find a place for us. And maybe through each other's eyes, we can catch a glimpse of what He is doing today. Don’t get upset with me, I am new here and not real sure how others believe.
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