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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 2:23:41 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3169
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
But, you've encountered this already in the other threads.
But I add my ditto to your post.
Carl…thanks brother
Regarding my tail feathers…there aren’t many left but you all are welcome to the few remaining.
Bob
ROFL...................
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 2:46:34 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 139
Joined: 12/10/2007
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quote:
Here's a new one and the story line is on how Yeshua or Jesus, handel this situation. The story can be found in Mark 5:1-17. Where he went into a boat trip across the big lake and went to gentiles cities. When he arrived there. You will notice that a man who lived in tombs came and greeted him. Whoops that is a no-no according to the torah. Again he had blood on him because he would cut himself when he cried out. Which according to the rules was again a no-no. So here we can see that Jesus to reached out at a lost person. Need to get close to breaking the torah in order to reach this person.
That's a very good point, Cloud.  Doing good to save a person's life is more important. Before I became a "literal law keeper", I believe that God met me right where I was. I believe He spoke to me then just as much as now. As a parent, I know how much information to give my children, what they can and cannot handle. I suppose God does the same with each of us.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 3:06:32 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do not think Yeshua or Paul talked of the deceitfulness of simply being physically 'Jewish' and 'sons of Abraham'.
John 8:31-48
Romans 2:28-29
Romans 9:6-8
Even being there with Jesus as a fellow Jew just isn't going to be good enough on the day of judgement:
...'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' (Luke 13:26-27)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If I recall, they talked about those who thought of themselves as superior because of those things. It is much like many "new testiment christians" who take false comfort in their doctrines, believing they are acceptable simply because they call themselves "Christian" and "sons of the reformation". I agree anyone who thinks himself acceptable to Adonai simply because of his heritage physical or theological is unacceptable to Adonai.
I agree wholeheartedly. Messianics are only one group of the Church who have people among them who are trusting in their outward ceremonies and procedures as the obedience that accompanies salvation, and as a result are missing what God is truly looking for out of the saved person.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In your link, you believe Isaiah is saying that sacrifices "have never proved one's right relationship with God", yet just before that you said, "If one did not make the required sacrifices under the old law you could not expect to be accepted by God."
What I'm saying is, Isaiah 1 is one of several examples that prove that outward obedience to the OT system of worship is not evidence of being right with God. Character qualities that lead us to consider the well-being of our neighbor is. Now reread the passage I linked to and see if it doesn't make more sense. I reject thouroughly and completely the general Messianic argument that Sabbaths and Festivals, etc. are the outward obedience that God is looking for and which proves your right standing with God. Baloney! The ancient Israelites proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt over and over again.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You say Adonai is looking for "a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart" as a sacrifice, yet you boldly say David, the man who penned those words had to make sacrifices in order to be accepted by Adonai? Is a broken and contrite heart enough to secure Adonai's blessing or not...
Yes. And a broken and contrite heart changes a man's behavior. But the outward behavior you say shows an inward change is not the proof of the inward change. Character is, not obedience to ceremonial procedures, no matter how required one may believe they are.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...and if it is, who are you to deny David that blessing merely due to what the atheists call an accident of time?
What blessing are you refering to specifically?
(Whew! Done with that post. Now to go back and wrap up the one before that.)
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 3:53:13 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Folks are not saved through the HS, they are saved through Jesus Christ, who first had to come down in order to ascend, and through Jesus Christ.... the HS descends “from” the Father
Of course, of course. That is not under debate, LG, may i assure you we are on the same page here.
I was rather addressing a particular aspect of debate and considered it necessary to talk about the behavior of saved, spiritually born again people.
You don’t deny that saved people are born again of the Holy Spirit?
Greetings,
You don’t deny that saved people are born again of the Holy Spirit?
According to the Rabbi upstairs, Let me see how it went according to what was revealed to me afterwards; by the order of my salvation.
It was made known to me early on in the beginning that Jesus; as the scripture read; did not come into the world because the world is already condemned, but that through Him we might have eternal life, and the power was given to Him to forgive sin…..so it was safe to assume that is was not Jesus who brought forth condemnation, by His own words...
Therefore if Jesus did not come to condemn the world; being already condemned, then the only one left is the Father. (Which is against His nature, but is according to ours)
Since the Bible describes in accuracy that it is only God who saves,
The very first reference in the sinners prayer is to be prayed to God the Father…. not the HS whom the world does not know; and is not given until any given moment “after” one is born again.. or by the asking thereof.
In my case it was the fear associated with the condemnation of the devil, not the HS who drew me to Christ, which according to the scriptures is not unlike God to allow such a thing.
quote:
You don’t deny that saved people are born again of the Holy Spirit?
I don’t know…I can not find a reference that the HS died on the Cross….
but it looks like the scripture points to being born again as the passing through the blood, as in any depiction of a birth would be,
But to finish answering your question…. we have to move to the context of John 3:1-21
Because Jesus makes that point understood…by what Nicodemus understood.... and said…….in
v2 whereby Jesus answers Nicodemus by the reiteration through the context of John 3: “3-20”
in verse in v21…
But let’s take a look at the order given in the scripture;
In the mean time can you answer this for us.....from the aspect of Judaism …
or what Nicodemus Biblical understanding was that prompted him to make such a reference to his mother's womb.... in verse 4 of John 3?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 3:53:27 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1884
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
quote:
But be careful inviting Jews to move into OK -whenever we move, trouble moves in with us.
I would welcome that because then it would be a "bonafide" reason for trouble. LOL.
And maybe you'd have the knack to "tune" my shofar. I get a lot of squeeks out of it.
old timers, true conservationalists, they fix stuff. No , give me your "collections ministry" to rule  i cant fix a shofar. Lets just get a new one - it's usually attached to the ram,though, so we eat the ram for Seder. That's mature Lamb, should do as well. Times are tough, need to be ecomonical
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I play my violin, a lot of squeeks come from it as well .
WD -40 . You just cant run a business w/out a can of it. 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 4:05:40 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1884
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Passover, Traditional Seder Meal
nice link. Spongie, can i have you for a second? I know you are out of time and shvitzing to give all the BlueT answers, but there is piece worthy of attention there:
"we do not stop eating eggs simply because pagans used them in their worship. Similarly, because the Jewish community employs an egg on the sedar plate during Passover we cannot all of a sudden make the judgment that they borrowed it “from Easter.” There is always an alternative view that frequently eludes those who are out on an “egg witch hunt.”
isnt that rich? so when when we are tryig to say that pagan origins are not what matters, nobody listens. When they are accused, then right away its OK, pagan origins dont matter .
That said, Lappie, -for real, as a whole it is a good link, THey are honest people, it's just - nobody 's perfect :), i have to criticise them...
But good info and I loved their answer that MC should celebrate PURIM - yes! the only holiday when we are prescribed to get wasted drunk legitimately, I cant imagine no purim, that would be ridiculous to prohibit it.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 11:20:06 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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I don't know if BlueThread is coming back or not, but here's the last of his posts that I didn't address. Bear with us folks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
When Peter opposed those who would require adherence to the law for salvation He said, Acts 15:10 "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Thus the keeping of the law never provided salvation. I think we have agreed on this before.
There's no reason to think that if a person could have kept the law perfectly that they would not be counted righteous and saved before God (righteousness is what saves). But it is purely a hypothetical situation given the fallen state of man.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now, you have turned Peters admonition on its head and test God by putting on the necks of the (Patriarchs) a yoke that neither (you) nor ("the church") fathers have (thought necessary) to bear?
That yoke was indeed required of them. And yes, it is now not necessary for us to bear that yoke. It has now been revealed that righteous cannot be attained through observance of the law because of the sinful state of man. And that the law was only useful to prove that, not actually produce salvation, even though theoretically it was possible to be saved by following the law perfectly.
With that truth now unveiled, God has brought us into a new way to attain righteousness--by believing in the forgiveness of sins made possible by the work of Christ, not works of the law. We no longer bear the yoke of attaining righteousness, or showing ourselves to be righteous, through the vehicle of the law, the way our spiritual forefathers had to. The new way, the new vehicle through which we are now saved and show ourselves to have been made righteous (the Holy Spirit) still upholds and preserves the intent and purpose of the law.
The thing that Messianics don't understand is that this new vehicle through which we relate to God does not lead us to literal acts of OT worship. Circumcision is the premier example and proof of that. The law requred us to be physically circumcised to demonstate compliance with the covenant. The Spirit requires us to be circumcised in heart to demonstate compliance with the (new) covenant, which, because the Spirit Himself does it, is not the result of any man's work, except the work of believing. The work of the law now being excluded.
Bottom line is, the law that has been written on our hearts is not the literal law of the old covenant, but the realities the law represented. Circumcision is proof of that.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The Judaisers required the Gentiles to keep the law for salvation, though they were unable to live up to that standard. You require the believers of the Tanach to keep the law for sanctification, though you refuse to do so yourself because you denigh there is any benefit in doing so.
I do not require it of the 'believers of the Tanach' to keep the law for santification. Isn't sanctification by the law your argument? Or more accurately, aren't you the ones who believe that one is justified (shown to have been made righteous) by acts of the law?
And it's true, I believe there is little value, spiritually or physically, in conforming to the OT laws of worship. And the OT is full of examples how it was of no value to the Israelites either. For two reasons: Obedience to the rest of the law (which was more important) did not accompany their obedience to the laws of outward worship. And, secondly, these outward displays of worship commanded in the law were mostly illustrative of what true worship was to be like inside a person and had little or no intrinsic value by themselves. The danger in not keeping them was mostly God's wrath, not some natural or inherent danger in not keeping them.
They were not intended to be the complete and perfect and final definition of proper worship to God. For example, we now know literal circumcision was not the reality. Circumcision of the heart was the true reality to come talked about in the law. And now that it's here, it isn't even necessary before or after salvation to be literally circumcised. That speaks boat loads about what it means to move away from the imperfect worship of God and into the perfect. So much of the worship laws of the OT can be understood this way.
This understanding was not fully open to our spiritual forefathers. How could it be with the literal requirements of the law (like circumcision) still being in full force? Only with the death of Christ has worship now moved into 'Spirit and in Truth' the way God really wants it. And as I've shown that new way doesn't always get acted out in the old way. We had to be released from the old way in order to fully walk in the new way!
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
They denighed salvation to the Gentiles and you denigh our spiritual fathers the blessings of Adonai.
They had their blessing--cattle, land, crops, abundance, prosperity... They had literal tangible things. I have the spiritual reality that those things represented and illustrated. I have a greater blessing than them not measured in the things of this world. That's the beauty of the New Covenant.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If you wish to say the sacrifices, or any laws for that matter, have always been spiritual that is one thing, but to say they were merely physical then and only spiritual now is to denigh the concepts of faith and grace.
And I am not saying that. I shared the scripture where Paul says our spiritual sacrifice is the offering up of our bodies in service to God through our gifts. What is so inactive and intangible about that? And how can one not see how infinately more meaningful and important those kinds of sacrifices are?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
What of Hebrews 11, where it is recorded that the faith of believers of the Tanach was counted as rightiousness and Adonai performed great miricles through them. Show me any example of the Spiritual gifts since the sacrifice of Yeshua and I would dare say there is an equal or greater example from before.
We raise people from the dead. And I ain't talking about their physical bodies.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 11:23:08 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1137
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...nice link. Spongie, can i have you for a second? I know you are out of time and shvitzing to give all the BlueT answers, but there is piece worthy of attention there:
"we do not stop eating eggs simply because pagans used them in their worship. Similarly, because the Jewish community employs an egg on the sedar plate during Passover we cannot all of a sudden make the judgment that they borrowed it “from Easter.” There is always an alternative view that frequently eludes those who are out on an “egg witch hunt.”
isnt that rich? so when when we are tryig to say that pagan origins are not what matters, nobody listens. When they are accused, then right away its OK, pagan origins dont matter ...
Yeah, it's an interesting link. I've just started reading it. I'll finish reading it, but I'm sure we are too far removed from both the time tables of the OT and the pagan origins of Easter and Christmas (real or imagined) for the church as a whole to consider changing anything.
**edit** What intrinsic, practical value is there in changing what day we meet and celebrate? And if there is no inherent, practical value in changing our meeting schedule, then the only other possible benefit would be God actively moving on our behalf and bringing us some value out of them for us. Will rearranging our meeting schedule move the hand of God on our behalf?
"Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? (Gal. 5:5)
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 7/4/2008 11:35:28 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 4:49:19 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 951
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I've got a small window of time to respond quickly. Here goes...
It is good that you have had limited time it helps you to focus and avoid needless rabbit trails. This discusssion has now stretch out to three posts. It might be time to shorten things up and focus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, you accept a list of unacceptable behaviors from Paul, but refuse to accept the list Moshe tells us come directly from Adonai.
Yes. That is if you mean Torah in it's entirety, and to the letter.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I accept Paul's list to, but not just because Paul says it. I trust Paul because he derives his teachings from Yeshua, who lived the Torah lifestyle and indeed was Ha Torah made flesh.
But what I don't subscribe to is just because the law says 'do not committ adultery' that it automatically means we also must still observe a literal Sabbath, or keep a particular literal Feast, for instance. That's narrow thinking that ignores so much else we now know, and which is the point we need to address specifically. Nobody here is tossing out the requirement to uphold moral requirements of God as given in Torah.
Precisely my point you will n ot entertain a "literal Sabbath" which Adonai commanded along with avoiding adultry. However, you require a "literal" interpretation of not committing adultry because it is on a list from Paul. As I stated earlier, if one can "change" the Sabbath for the sake of the spirit of the law, then why can't one "change" the prohibition on adultry, for what they see as the spirit of the law. To repeat my example, "Christian swingers" believe they are harming no one since they have the permission of their spouses. To them fidelity is a ceremonial law and not a moral one.
I noticed you have started to edit what I say for brevity, and that is acceptable as long as the context is maintained. I hope you will afford me the same privilege.
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The wine. And Jesus didn't raise a stink about it being part of the passover He was observing on that night recorded for us in scripture.
"Do this" kind of strips it of it's optional qualities, but it definately was not accompanied by a literal time table or any restrictions similar to the passover of the old covenant.
And response to the dipping of the bitter herbs.
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Don't misunderstand. I'm not going to get on board with it being a hard and fast commandment, but I will defend it as an example that Christ plainly told us to follow. But without all the OT style rigidness of proper procedures and timetables (thus the meaning of 'whenever').
These are not a changes of Torah. They are a clarification of rabbinics. As far as I know there is no command to drink wine at Pesach or dip the herbs. However, since He appears to be following a rabbinic Seder, and expects that his disciples will to, as they always have, He points out that whenever one eats unlevened bread and the Pesach cup of redemption one is to do so in rememberance of Ha Meshiach. I believe this is a common rabbinic understanding. He is just saying that he is Ha Meshiach. "Whenever" is a conditional clause. The condition being when one chooses to follow the rabbinis Seder, which one is not rquired to do. Therefore, there is no changing adding to, or taking away from Ha Torah. The reference to dipping (of the herbs) is just his way of answering the question of who would betray Him without it interfering with the meal.
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Without checking, I think Moses was very specific about how to keep a passover.
Good, since we obviously do not have Ha Torah written on our hearts to that extent, let's check. Where is that specific instruction(Seder) in Ha Torah.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The bread is not Mosaic, as you are attempting to use the term, it is a command of Adonai that was compiled with the other commands of Adonai by Moshe. (Num 9:10)
I don't get what you're saying. Compiled by Moses and included in the law is what makes it Mosaic.
It is clear wrong to take the ideas of one and attribute them to another. Even secular copyright law acknowledges this. I know Ha Torah is sometimes refered to as "the law of Moses" and Paul tells us Moshe gave us the law. But it is clear he means delivered not created. However, when one is discussing the authority of Ha Torah, it is best to acknowledge its true origins, that is Adonai. Therefore, it is Adonai's Law not Moshe's.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
". . .celebrate the Lord's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs."
Okay, so we're cool with the bread part of the church's passover (aka communion).
The bread is legit, and Messianics approve of the wine as an acceptable addition to a passover. So what is it that Messianics get their undies in a bunch over concerning the church's passover observance and what Christ told us we should/ could do in rememberance of Him?
You will have to ask those who call themselves Messianic about that yourself. As for me and my house, we believe it is important to keep things in context. So to observe certain parts of a Seder, some commands and others simple reminders, outside of the context of Pesach is to miss the full meaning associated with them.
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But the point we need to get to is whether or not we really have to continue in the original requirements.
Good, and we shall see as we go through the specific Seder you say is in Ha Torah.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Yeshua accepted the traditional Seder when he acknowledged the parts of it that are not in Ha Torah.
Yes, that's what I've been defending.
No, I hear you saying that He raised them to the level of commands. I am just saying that Yeshua found then acceptable.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The point of what you quote me saying is that Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) has always been there in the hearts of His people guiding them in the proper keeping of Pesach and protecting them from tha angel of death.
In their hearts???? If this was true, why the necessity for a later period of time in which the law would be written in their hearts by the Holy Spirit? I don't get it.
The Ruach Ha Chedosh has always been in the hearts of Adonais chosen. What Adonai reveals through Jeremiah is that there will come a time when the Ha Ruach will write Ha Torah on our hearts such that we will not need to inquire of one another regarding it. This is clearly not the case now since you are unable to recall the specific Seder that the Scriptures require.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As were they, Ex 19:5 "'. . .Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
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Even the annointed men of old did not have the revelation that even the common man has today.
"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
This passage talks of time and circumstance. Ha Ruach Meshiach (The Spirit of Messiah) which was in them had already revealed to them the significance and that is why they sought the time and circumstance. I contend that, many who are aware of the time and circumstance today don't have the revelation of the significance that the prophets had. Didn't you imply that significance was more important than time and place?
Woe, dude, you're way off the point here.
How so? I am merely pointing out that the Prophets were aware of Ha Meshiach and His significance, they just didn't have the timeline and circumstances. So, at least with regard to the Spirit of Adonai and His plan, they appear to be up to speed.
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Do you really think they knew Christ by name, and understood Him as separate and distinct from the Father (yet one), but just didn't tell anybody? And that they knew about the revelation of the 'one new Body'(which Paul says they didn't know about)?
Let's take this one at a time. I do believe that Adonai's people have always been aware of His charactor(name). If you are refering to "Jesus" and "Christ", these are not His names. "Jesus" is a self defined term, derived from a greek term that did not exist anywhere in greek prior to its' adoption by the new testiment translators. "Christ" is not a name but a title, the greek form of Meshiach. So, if you wish to be a literalist about it His name and title probably are Yeshua Ha Meshiach, which literally means The Messiah who is Adonais salvation.
Understanding "Him as separate and distinct from the Father (yet one)", I do not see as Scriptural, if I understand what you mean and therefore, would not expect it to be common knowledge. We need not go down this rabbit trail at this time.
There are many Scriptures in the Tanach that speak of all nations and peoples being saved, so of course I believe those who understand Adonai would understand that all who love Him are part of the promise.
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How is it different now than it was in the old covenant? Why did God find need for a change from the way it was, and what is that change we now have in the New Covenant? I honestly don't understand your POV on this one.
Let me make it clear. He did not change the "old" covenant, He is renewing and will renew the covenant in the future by writting it on our hearts.
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The Spirit He gave to them was outside of them, manifesting Himself in the tangible things around them.
Where does it say He only manifest Himself in this way?
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Yes. I'm grappling for a scripture that's on the edge of my brain. Hopefully I'll remember in time.
Under the renewed covenant this will not be a problem. It will be witten on your heart.
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I think about myself as I ought according to the NT. (You're using the passage about gifts out of context).
How so? I am comparing love tolove, joy to joy, peace to peace,. . .
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David was one of those select few I spoke about.
There are also a select few today.
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Yeah...like the Church maybe? If you are refering to those chosen by Adonai, that is true by definiton. If you are refering to an organization or group of organizations whpo specifically refer to themselves as "the church", I say there are probably no more there than in the general population.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do not think Yeshua or Paul talked of the deceitfulness of simply being physically 'Jewish' and 'sons of Abraham'.
quote:
John 8:31-48
Romans 2:28-29
Romans 9:6-8
Even being there with Jesus as a fellow Jew just isn't going to be good enough on the day of judgement:
...'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' (Luke 13:26-27)
These verse do not talk of being Jewish as deceitful, but putting ones faith in ones heredity or inherited doctrine.
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What I'm saying is, Isaiah 1 is one of several examples that prove that outward obedience to the OT system of worship is not evidence of being right with God. Character qualities that lead us to consider the well-being of our neighbor is. Now reread the passage I linked to and see if it doesn't make more sense. I reject thouroughly and completely the general Messianic argument that Sabbaths and Festivals, etc. are the outward obedience that God is looking for and which proves your right standing with God. Baloney! The ancient Israelites proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt over and over again.
Yes. And a broken and contrite heart changes a man's behavior. But the outward behavior you say shows an inward change is not the proof of the inward change. Character is, not obedience to ceremonial procedures, no matter how required one may believe they are.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...and if it is, who are you to deny David that blessing merely due to what the atheists call an accident of time?
What blessing are you refering to specifically?
The one you ascribe to yourself, righteousness before Adonai apart from the law.
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That yoke was indeed required of them. And yes, it is now not necessary for us to bear that yoke. It has now been revealed that righteous cannot be attained through observance of the law because of the sinful state of man. And that the law was only useful to prove that, not actually produce salvation, even though theoretically it was possible to be saved by following the law perfectly.
It has always been clear that righteousness can not be obtained through observance of the written law. From Adam to Moshe, many were counted righteous even though there was no written Torah. Moshe was aware of this for he compiled the history and the Prophets were aware of it because they read the written Torah.
Ha Torah is still necessary to prove and remind us that salvation is by grace, even though it is theoretically possible to rememeber and apply the Scriptures without reading or practicing what it tells us.
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We no longer bear the yoke of attaining righteousness, or showing ourselves to be righteous, through the vehicle of the law, the way our spiritual forefathers had to.
Verse please. There actions were considered righteous, they did not make them righteous. Just as our works are washed throught the renewing of our minds by The Word. Righteousness has always been by grace through faith, then as it is now.
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Bottom line is, the law that has been written on our hearts is not the literal law of the old covenant, but the realities the law represented.
Before we slide to far off into the either, please, tell me again why David had to keep the literal law and not the "realities the law represented".
When you introduce new words and phrases as synonims it is best to make clear wahat is similar and what is different in the new term.
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And it's true, I believe there is little value, spiritually or physically, in conforming to the OT laws of worship. And the OT is full of examples how it was of no value to the Israelites either. For two reasons: Obedience to the rest of the law (which was more important) did not accompany their obedience to the laws of outward worship. And, secondly, these outward displays of worship commanded in the law were mostly illustrative of what true worship was to be like inside a person and had little or no intrinsic value by themselves. The danger in not keeping them was mostly God's wrath, not some natural or inherent danger in not keeping them.
So, if they were of little value, why would they have to fear the wrath of Adonai if they did not keep them? Also, if the wrath of Adonai was to be feared for keeping things of little value then, then why is it not to be feared now?
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They had their blessing--cattle, land, crops, abundance, prosperity... They had literal tangible things. I have the spiritual reality that those things represented and illustrated. I have a greater blessing than them not measured in the things of this world. That's the beauty of the New Covenant.
On what basis do you have this greater blessing? Where does it say that they did not have the spiritual reality that those things represented and illustrated?
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I shared the scripture where Paul says our spiritual sacrifice is the offering up of our bodies in service to God through our gifts. What is so inactive and intangible about that? And how can one not see how infinately more meaningful and important those kinds of sacrifices are?
And that is how it has always been. So, what's the difference apart from picking and choosing which "service to God" one feels is important?
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We raise people from the dead. And I ain't talking about their physical bodies.
As did Adonai through them. It is useless to give you an example, until you do, so I am not caught in the endless apples and oranges argument.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/4/2008 5:03:24 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 5:28:13 PM
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Dougeb
Posts: 32
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if one is so concerned about sabbath then one must also follow the seven yearn sabbath and how abouit jubilee?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 5:29:20 PM
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Dougeb
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lev. 25
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 5:36:23 PM
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Dougeb
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six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather its fruitbut the seventh year there shall be a [sabbath] of solemn rest of the land a [sabbath] to the [lord]
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 5:39:59 PM
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Dougeb
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so why hold to one sabbath day and not the other sabbath?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 6:27:38 PM
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MrFribbles
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Dougeb, two things. First, you've already brought up this point in the Sabbath thread, and since that thread it specifically for the purpose of discussing the Sabbath, it should be kept there. Second, try and contain all your thoughts in a single post, instead of spreading it out over 4.
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Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/4/2008 6:44:19 PM
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ChristopherJ
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From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
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Dear friends,
Here is a discussion thread - "Keep the Law?" - that has been going on for three years and 155 pages. I have skimmed the oldest and the most recent posts, and wanted to jump into the discussion for the first time. So - if I am sharing something that has already been mentioned in the first 155 pages, I apologize! However, I throw out my thoughts on the law to see what the rest of you think about it...
There are three aspects of the law of God in the OT:
1. The Moral Law. These are God's principles of right and wrong and are universal and therefore binding on all people in all time periods. Rules such as do not lie, do not steal, etc. fall under this category. Note that never (not even in the OT) was keeping the law the grounds of our salvation. However, keeping the law has always been the fruit of one who has been genuinely born again.
2. The Ceremonial Law. These aspects of the Jewish religious systems were shadows and types that were fulfilled in Christ. This include laws pertaining to animal sacrifices, and since they have been fulfilled, they are no longer binding on us as NT believers.
3. The Civil Law. These aspects of the Jewish political systems were the rules put in place to govern the punishing of those who violated the moral law of God. For example - capital punishment. And, because we do not live in the nation of Israel, their civil law does not apply to us. As Christians, we are to be subject to the civil laws of the country we reside in, and are not bound by follow the OT civil law.
Any thoughts on these distinctions? Agree, disagree, whatever?
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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