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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2009 11:29:19 PM
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MrFribbles
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So, I'm sure this passage has been brought up before, so if it has, just point me to a post #. Or if you'd prefer, just post some thoughts. But for those who support the notion that Christians should follow the entire law today - how do you respond to 2 Corinthians 3, specifically verses 7-18?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/19/2009 7:45:10 AM
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sunofone
Posts: 486
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
So, I'm sure this passage has been brought up before, so if it has, just point me to a post #. Or if you'd prefer, just post some thoughts. But for those who support the notion that Christians should follow the entire law today - how do you respond to 2 Corinthians 3, specifically verses 7-18?
Thank you Mr. Fribbles.This cuts to the heart of the argument.What in the world is Paul saying here?Is he saying that the righteousness of God's Law is done away?
If he is I would have to ask that God bring him back to answer for such an heretical teaching.To think that an Apostle of the Lord Jesus is saying that God's Commandments are to be done away with? God forbid!!
Before someone accuses me of blasphemy let me quickly turn to scripture to back up my point:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Paul clearly taught the gospel of Jesus Christ right?What is this gospel?It's lawlessness right?
2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5 for each one should carry his own load.
God forbid,we are under the law of Christ right?What is this law of Christ?First off lets look at Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
What is the law that God said he would write on our hearts and in our mind?The Ten Commandments right?So the question is what in the world is Paul talking about concerning the law of Christ?
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
What did Jesus say concerning the summation of the law?
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The Ten Commandments can be broken down into two parts.Man responsibility to God,and Mans responsibility to Man.In fact the first Four Commandments are our responsibility to God,the other or remaining six is our responsibility to Man.
Paul's message agrees with Jesus,that is the law is perfectly expressed in love.Love is not an adjective it is a verb.So if I love my brother as myself, I will not steal from him, kill,covet,bear false witness against him,and honor my my Mother and Father Literally and Spiritually.Not just Spiritually as some would have you believe.
What about the other four which Paul seems to have dismissed?Thank God for the other Apostles who also agree with Paul and has his back.Lets turn to James:
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Here again James refers to the royal Law that Christ spoke of.Which is what ?The Ten Commandments broken down or summarized into two parts being fulfilled in love.But James explains more clearly how that Love should be expressed.With works,which essentially says that the Law of Christ which is essentially the Ten Commandments has to be worked out physically.
So how do we show our love for God:Let's turn to John another beloved Apostle for some help who also agrees with Paul,and Jesus Christ:
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. 9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
So you see my brother God's moral law proceeds from the righteousness of God and CAN NEVER BE ABOLISHED.The Mosaic law as an expression of this moral law,has been done away in that it has been superseded by another Law,i,e.. The Law of Christ.
There is a lot more that can be said but lets see where this gets us for now.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/20/2009 3:20:38 PM
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NorbertL
Posts: 87
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
So, I'm sure this passage has been brought up before, so if it has, just point me to a post #. Or if you'd prefer, just post some thoughts. But for those who support the notion that Christians should follow the entire law today - how do you respond to 2 Corinthians 3, specifically verses 7-18?
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
The new covenant of having the liberty and freedom to worship in Spirit and in Truth. (Jo 4:23)
James went into the Spirit of the Law, the intent that passes the mere letter. Can a person show partiality and still love his neighbor?
"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."
The Spirit of the Law is a much more revealing, to follow Christ and this liberty means to be judged by this law of liberty, the truth behind all those OT commandments.
And what about Paul when he wrote, "how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?" (2 Co 3:8) When it comes into the intent of the letter? How much more glorious and powerful is it?
"Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Of course a popular argument goes, because we're unable to keep the whole Law, that the letter kills, the OT can no longer be shown to be included as an authoritative way and guide to salvation. Today as long as a person believes and has faith in Christ, he keeps this law of liberty. He is able to faithfully express the Spirit of the law and worship in Spirit and Truth.
But looking at those scriptures above, it can lead you to believe that the law of liberty is even stricter and harder to keep! What is the truth of the matter?
Many understand Jesus is also The King, as He declared, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
Then Pilate asked him a question that remained unanswered, "Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?"
Would Jesus deny this scripture, even now seated at the right hand of Majesty, "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth." (Ps 119:142)?
I'm sure if you ask anyone who believes in keeping the law. When it comes to keeping the law, keeping the letters are the easier part. 
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/20/2009 8:10:26 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
I would add, all the letters and only the letters that are there. As has been said, "One can read many things into the Scriptures, but one can read nothing out." If it is there, it must be delt with. We must struggle to understand it. If it is not there, it need not be accepted. It may be helpful in understanding what is there, but it is not necessarily what Adonai intended.
What in the world are you saying here Blue?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/14/2009 10:59:18 AM
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leftwing
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I'm worried that I'll either offend someone or get in trouble but here's what I think: the law, as I understand it is seperated in to two parts, Gods law and Moses' law. The former being the Ten Commandments, the latter the law regarding food, feasts, and other things.
The Ten Commandments are cast in stone, pardon the pun. I think these are for everyone, everywhere and forever. And I'll leave it right there... have a really nice day as we are getting a thunderstorm here in oklahoma at the time of this writing. 
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/15/2009 3:06:39 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leftwing
I'm worried that I'll either offend someone or get in trouble but here's what I think: the law, as I understand it is seperated in to two parts, Gods law and Moses' law. The former being the Ten Commandments, the latter the law regarding food, feasts, and other things.
The Ten Commandments are cast in stone, pardon the pun. I think these are for everyone, everywhere and forever. And I'll leave it right there... have a really nice day as we are getting a thunderstorm here in oklahoma at the time of this writing.
On what do you base this. Many places in what you call "Moses' law" the commands are presented as Adonai's words. Was Moshe' acting presumptiously, attibuting to Adonai something he, Moshe, was trying to enact?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/25/2009 8:21:46 PM
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ForeverRedeemed
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There were different laws given through out different time periods, so I think attaching a name such as Moses' law helps us establish which law we are talking about and in no way should mean or imply that it was Moses' personal law handed to the people. Most everybody can acknowledge that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments.
Paul says specifically that the Ten Commandments were given to remind us of our sin. He states that we are sinful beings. The law could never be kept in it's entirety! The only One who could ever keep the law to perfection is the perfect and only Son of God, who came to die for our sins.
The purpose of the those who attempt to live by and keep the law is to justify themselves in the eyes of God. When in fact, the purpose of the Law is the exact opposite.
It is to show us we are sinners, we miss the mark of God's holy standards, we have no righteousness of our own, and we are desperately in need of a Savior.
Galatians chapter three tells us the law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God. v24
But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. v25
Galatians two states, ".... knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ ..... not by the works of the law: for by works of the law shall no flesh be justified. v16
Do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. v 21
We are NOT under the law, however, the Ten Commandments are good moral guidelines to live by.
We should never cross the line to say that by keeping the law, we are better in God's sight.
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I am FOREVER REDEEMED!!!!!"
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/26/2009 2:07:09 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ForeverRedeemed
The purpose of the those who attempt to live by and keep the law is to justify themselves in the eyes of God. When in fact, the purpose of the Law is the exact opposite.
It is to show us we are sinners, we miss the mark of God's holy standards, we have no righteousness of our own, and we are desperately in need of a Savior.
Galatians chapter three tells us . . .
This is a strawman argument. First you state another person's intent as fact and then attack that intent. It is not my intent to justify myself " in the eyes of God" or anyone else for that matter. I attempt to live by Adonai's ways because they are Adonai's ways. Is a man who avoids grinding the gears in a standard transmission trying to justify himself when he does so. No, he is merely operating the vehicle according to the manufacturer's instructions. That is my intent. I am merely attempting to operate my vehicle according to The Manufacturer's instructions.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2009 6:17:26 PM
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AskSeekKnock
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1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters (NKJV)
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1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 9:02:55 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1542
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In what way does Jeremiah say it is "not be like" the old covenant. I pointed this out to you in post#31, You must have missed it. (Jer. 31:33) "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Therefore, it will not be like the written covenant in that it was written on stone with few taking it into their hearts. It will be written on our hearts as a nation. That is why He says, we will not need to teach one another, it will no longer be the minority that will understand and live by Adonai's ways.
We are not limited to the things Jeremiah specifically mentioned. We know that because Paul said in Ephesians that the church was not revealed in the OT.
One of the other posters suggested the teaching ministry would elminated under that new covenant. Belenchi addressed that in his post.
quote:
No so fast.
You say that like you don't believe I can produce. I guess I thought you would know the NT so that I wouldn't me actually have to give the references.
If you are going to contend that Paul said, "I command you", you will need to provide some examples so your thesis regarding a different law can be tested.
You're kidding right? Did you think I made that up? I would have thought you would know that already.
1 Cor. 7:6, 7:25 (while he does not command anything, it is obvious from the context that he was accustomed to issueing commands.) 1 Cor. 14:37, 2 Cor 8:8; 2 Thess 3:6 ("we command you brothers"); 2 Thess. 3:10; 1 Tim. 4:11; 1 Tim. 6:14; 1 Tim 6:17: Phil 1:8
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Now regarding "the law of Christ", I already responded to that at your post #41 request.
Yes, you responded. But you responded with made up facts. If you want anyone to take you seriously about what Paul meant, let Paul explain himself without you making up stuff.
quote:
We then have a plausable pigtailed on the end to add credability. Then at the end the plausible magically becomes "a more appropriate interpretation in light of the context", Jeremiah I presume, that clearly states the difference is that it is written on our hearts. If you are refering to 1 Cor. 9, again the context contrasts "the law" with Adonai's law.
You are suggesting, of course, that Jeremiah could not have meant anything more about the new covenant than what he stated. It is clear from the writings of Paul and Peter that there is more in the new covenant than what Jeremiah mentioned. You want to suggest that what was different was ONLY what Jeremiah mentioned? Nothing more?
quote:
If you are refering to 1 Cor. 9, again the context contrasts "the law" with Adonai's law.
He contrasts 2 laws. One that he is no longer under, and one that is under in its place. Repeatedly he says he is not 'under the law," the same law he is talking about in Romans. What right do you have to suggest that "the law" in 1 Cor 9 is anything other than the Mosaic covenant? Using Paul's words and not making anything up?
quote:
No, I dont' think.., just a second, let me check again. No, no fulfilled means "paid in full" in these passages.
Me thinks that you are attempting to hold me to a standard to which you yourself are not willing to hold. What I told you is how I interpreted Paul's words. What you want is the exact words whether or not it was Paul's meaning.
quote:
Now, puting them together as you did one might get that impression. However, last time I checked Romans 8:4 did not come between 7:4 and 7:6. What does 7:5 say? "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work i...flesh, we have the hope that the may fully exemplify what the law was meant to convey.
The purpose of the law was to reveal that we are sinners and to direct us to Christ. Dying with Christ, we died to the law. IOW, the law had no effect on us. We are exempted from its penalties.
quote:
But, Matthew says, (Mt 1:22-23) "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us.""
If fulfill means "paid in full" as you say, what's with this "type" stuff?
Words and phrases have more than one meaning. If you look in any dictionary you will find many words that have multiple definitions. One of the flaws of logical fallacies is to select the wrong definition and to accuse the other person of making an absurd statement. As for typology, typology was a part of their hermeneutic. I don't understand it all myself. If you follow the original context and word meaning, Isaiah 7 would be fulfilled in Isaiah's lifetime. What's more the Hebrew word "alma" is not all about a woman's sexual history. That is to say, its meaning isn't limited.
So either Matthew was taking Isaiah out of context or he was using another hermeneutic. There are those with whom I discussed this who say that Jews of the first century use another hermeneutic than we use today. And typology is among those. We have other examples in the NT. Some are expressed given as types, some are inferred.
Now you can get into all kinds of rigmarole about double-prophecies and stuff. I don't plan to. Now, back to our originally scheduled program please.
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If you do not wish to identify yourself with Adonai's people and stay in eygpt, I guess you weren't there. However, the Scriptures tell me, (Ex. 12:26-27) "And when your children ask you, 'What does this ceremony mean to you?' then tell them, 'It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.'" Then the people bowed down and worshiped." They also tell us, (Ex 12:38) "And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle." So, we, me and my household, were there.
Nope, I wasn't there. Gentiles were "grafted in." If I thought I was should I be concerned about being stoned or or me and my posterity ejected from the land of Israel?
quote:
quote:
1) We can refuse to acknowledge Adonai's ways and be subject to the curses that follow from those actions.
What curses? Curses of the law? "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law..." (Gal. 3:13)
Emphasis Mine
You must not have noticed on is plural the other is singular. We are freed from the curse that forces us to sin. We are now free to not sin if we choose. Howver, there are consequences to our actions.
Since the plural is your words, I can only assume this is another example of you making something up again. Use plural all you want. You have to document it from the NT scripture that we are still cursed by the law even though we have accepted Christ.
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BT:2) We can acknowledge Adonai's ways and live under His blessing as He writes His Word on our hearts. The law is not subject to our ratification any more than the law of gravity is subject to our ratification. It is what it is. We can choose to recognize it or we can ignore it at our own peril.
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quote:
Really? Documentation please? And in the NT scriptures, not the OT.
De 5:29 "Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!"
I will address the rest later, out of time.
Oh. You mean so that they would not be stoned or exiled from the land of Israel?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/22/2009 7:10:11 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 9:06:02 PM
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micharmony
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Larry,
quote:
If you are talking about the law as the embodiment of God's moral authority, I agree in one sense. But we do not need the Mosaic covenant for that.
I actually agree with you here. :)
BT,
quote:
To those free from the law I became like one free from the law (though I am not free from God’s law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law. (1 Cor. 9:21)
I like that you pointed this out, because I think it makes a number of points that I want to be explaining:
1) Paul makes a few distinctions, using different terms for "the law," "God's law," and "Christ's law".
2) Those who are outside "the law" are being won by someone who is allowed to go "outside the law".
3) Paul is able to be "outside the law" without being rid of "God's law" or to be "outside Christ's law".
The only explanation I have seen so far that fulfills all three facts is that way New Covenant Theology puts things (as I understand it right now): the Mosaic Law is no longer necessary; God's eternal law has a new Covenant expression--that of the life and teachings of Christ.
_____________________________
Grace,
Michael
Ezk. 34:31
I have a feeling God thinks it rather cute that we all think we understand him completely.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 9:48:06 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1542
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: micharmony
Larry,
quote:
If you are talking about the law as the embodiment of God's moral authority, I agree in one sense. But we do not need the Mosaic covenant for that.
The only explanation I have seen so far that fulfills all three facts is that way New Covenant Theology puts things (as I understand it right now): the Mosaic Law is no longer necessary; God's eternal law has a new Covenant expression--that of the life and teachings of Christ.
I am making a slight shift in my view. I may do so again. But I want to clarify my view of something you said here.
I do not believe the "Mosaic Law is no longer necessary." It's purpose today has either been changed or clarified. One web site I read made a very good case for saying the Mosaic Law has a new purpose under the new covenant. I'm inclined to think there is something to what they are saying but I do no know what.
The web site says that the new purpose of the law under the new covenant is to reveal sin. We are either cursed by it when we reject Christ or we rise above it into a greater realm of the HS. In one sense, the sinner is still under the law (1 Timothy chapter 1) in order that he can be trapped into learning that he needs Christ. So, in that view, there is a purpose today of the law.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2009 10:20:12 PM
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micharmony
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Hey Larry!
Let me also clarify; in context, what I managed to ellipsisize (which is not a word, but I'm making a verb out of it) was the idea the the Mosaic Law is no longer necessary for a code of conduct, or ethical behavior, in a Christian context. That is because it has been superseded by the supreme embodiment of God's Law of Love in Christ Jesus' teachings and life.
I did not mean to say that we can, for example, completely remove it from our bibles, as Marcionites once did. That is sacrilege, completely against God in Christ. The Law indeed shows us our sin, and our need to be swept up into the higher Love of God.
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Grace,
Michael
Ezk. 34:31
I have a feeling God thinks it rather cute that we all think we understand him completely.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 12:01:24 AM
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bob97
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It is Gods moral law that will be written on our hearts under the terms of the New Covenant and that moral law can be summed up in one word love. Christ tells us that He gives us a new commandment:
John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, you also love one another"
John 15:12,17 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you....these things I command you, that you love one another."
Christ then tells us that if we love God and our neighbors we have fulfilled the law:
Matthew 22:35-40 "Then one of them, an expert in the law, asked him a question, testing him, and saying, 'Master, which is the great commandment in the law?' Jesus said to him, '"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'"
Paul then tells us if we love our neighbor we have fulfilled the law:
Galatians 5:13-14 "For brethren, you have been called to liberty, only don't use liberty for an occassion to gratify the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in this one saying: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Romans 13:8-9 "Owe no one anything except love toward one another, for the one that loves another has fulfilled the law. For concerning these things: 'You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet;' and if there is any other commandment, it, too, is summed up in this saying, namely, 'You shall love you neighbor as yourself.'"
So in actuality it is the Commandments God wrote in stone which are written in our heart which Paul sums up in Rom 13:8-9.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 12:13:58 AM
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micharmony
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Bob,
I'm a little confused about your position. You say the moral law is written on our hearts... but then you say Christ gives a new commandment. How could it be new if it was from old? Clearly the "new" portion of the Covenant is not limited to the form in which the Mosaic Law takes, else it would not be a new "commandment".
Other than that, I think this is just a perception difference between CT and NCT: CT views Love as the reductive foundation; NCT views Love as the all-encompassing pinnacle of God. The reason why I'm siding with NCT as of late, I think, is because I don't see a foundation as being able to fulfill anything. In order to fulfill something, that fulfilling thing must be at least as big as it, if not extend beyond it. Surely Love is bigger/greater than the Mosaic Law?
_____________________________
Grace,
Michael
Ezk. 34:31
I have a feeling God thinks it rather cute that we all think we understand him completely.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 1:13:33 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Michael...as Paul says in Romans 13:8-9, if we love our neighbor as ourselves we have fulfilled all of the Ten Commandments other than the Sabbath commandment. When you think about it maybe we even fulfill the Sabbath commandment because we would want to worship God if we love Him. I think what Christ is instructing us to do is nothing more that a new way of looking at what God originally passed on to Moses in the tablets.
Christ sums it up in Mat 22:35-40...all of the commandments hang on obeying the single commandment to love God and love our neighbor. I see no conflict in these instructions.
By it is not me who says Christ gave a new commandment...it was Christ.
Paul refers to the law written in our hearts in Roman 2:15:
Romans 2:14-15 (KJV)
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 8:31:24 AM
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AskSeekKnock
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I see no conflict in these instructions either. But, was Jesus telling them anyting new?
Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. (NKJV)
Deuteronomy 10:18-19 He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. (NKJV)
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1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 10:54:25 AM
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bob97
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Hi AskSeekKnock...wasn't Christ the new development? This led to Ruach Adonai which would imprint this love in the hearts of all believers. This would allow the personal loving relationship with God that was demanded.
Without these things we can love all we want...doesn't count.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 11:24:54 AM
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AskSeekKnock
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi AskSeekKnock...wasn't Christ the new development? This led to Ruach Adonai which would imprint this love in the hearts of all believers. This would allow the personal loving relationship with God that was demanded.
Without these things we can love all we want...doesn't count.
Bob
Hello to you Bob. Yes, Christ was the new development. Which led to the Spirit of God that would imprint this love in the hearts of all believers? Again, yes.
Just a question, before Christ did believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If not, could anyone have loved God before Christ?
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1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 12:47:48 PM
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bob97
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AskSeekKnock…there would be some evidence that the indwelling of he Spirit was not a permanent thing, seems it depends what your position is, are you a CT or a Dispensationalist. My self I think it permanent for those who trusted in God such as Abraham.
The Old Testament speaks of purification and in the New Testament it is sanctification, it often uses terms related to "purify" or "cleanse," frequently in the context of forgiveness (e.g. Lev. 16:30; Num. 8:21; Ps. 51:2; Jer. 33:8; Ezek. 36:25,33). The New Testament reflects this language in 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Did God ever threaten Abraham with something else than righteousness? Did David's sins take away his position with God?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 12:52:37 PM
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micharmony
Posts: 30
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I think what Christ is instructing us to do is nothing more than a new way of looking at what God originally passed on to Moses in the tablets.
Christ sums it up in Mat 22:35-40...all of the commandments hang on obeying the single commandment to love God and love our neighbor. I see no conflict in these instructions.
But it is not me who says Christ gave a new commandment...it was Christ.
Bob,
Let me know if anything I'm saying disturbs our fellowship; that's more important to me.
What you think is nothing more than a new "way" (which makes me think it's not a big shift to you), but then you admit that Christ himself gives a new "commandment" (which is definitely communicating an addition to the law, or a greater one). Which is it?
Notice that "hang on" was also used: this, to me, signifies that the Love-essence of God which we are to obey and reveal is higher, greater, more sufficient, and therefore easily more fulfilling of the Mosaic codifications. Is not Love itself greater than any law, and therefore easily fulfilling any law?
_____________________________
Grace,
Michael
Ezk. 34:31
I have a feeling God thinks it rather cute that we all think we understand him completely.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 2:09:02 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2278
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From: Kansas
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Hi Michael...
First Brother, you are not disturbing me in any way. We are here in an effort to understand and that is how I view this exchange.
I think the whole thing is new in the fact that Christ (God) has given us a commandment and that is to love Him with all our strength. Second we have been given the Spirit of God that will allow us to understand God through His word as well as draw us to His Holiness. These things were not present in the Old Covenant. What we have today is in our nature not something we hold in our hand. Without Gods love being a part of our nature and without our being drawing to Him, our sinful nature will win every time.
Yes our love for God is greater than any law but if we love God as we should we will want to obey any and all commandments.
Just my take on things…
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2009 4:34:08 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
We are not limited to the things Jeremiah specifically mentioned. We know that because Paul said in Ephesians that the church was not revealed in the OT.
Again, please, if you are going to "Paul said" then present what Paul actually said. If your going to present your take on what he said, say that. Where does Paul say, "the church was not revealed in the OT."?
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One of the other posters suggested the teaching ministry would elminated under that new covenant. Belenchi addressed that in his post.
I did not say that. I said that "as a nation" that will generally be the case. We will be living it out.
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No so fast.
You say that like you don't believe I can produce. I guess I thought you would know the NT so that I wouldn't me actually have to give the references.
No, I think you are skipping a few steps or going off track.
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If you are going to contend that Paul said, "I command you", you will need to provide some examples so your thesis regarding a different law can be tested.
You're kidding right? Did you think I made that up? I would have thought you would know that already.
1 Cor. 7:6, 7:25 (while he does not command anything, it is obvious from the context that he was accustomed to issueing commands.) 1 Cor. 14:37, 2 Cor 8:8; 2 Thess 3:6 ("we command you brothers"); 2 Thess. 3:10; 1 Tim. 4:11; 1 Tim. 6:14; 1 Tim 6:17: Phil 1:8
No, I never presume that I am not going to be asked to substantiate what I say. It is getting rather messy here. I will address each of these in another post.
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Now regarding "the law of Christ", I already responded to that at your post #41 request.
Yes, you responded. But you responded with made up facts. If you want anyone to take you seriously about what Paul meant, let Paul explain himself without you making up stuff.
Since this was moved, it is difficult to locate the exact post. However, if I recall, I used the words in the passage to explain the passage and it was you who was combineing various passages to make your point.
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If you are refering to 1 Cor. 9, again the context contrasts "the law" with Adonai's law.
He contrasts 2 laws. One that he is no longer under, and one that is under in its place. Repeatedly he says he is not 'under the law," the same law he is talking about in Romans. What right do you have to suggest that "the law" in 1 Cor 9 is anything other than the Mosaic covenant? Using Paul's words and not making anything up?
As I have posted before, in Paul's words. (vs 21) "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law." Yes, he is contrasting two laws. The law as interpreted by Yeshua and the law as interpreted by Yeshua. That is the point of the contrary clarification is all about, in my opinion. It clarifies that he is not talking about the law as a whole.
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No, I dont' think.., just a second, let me check again. No, no fulfilled means "paid in full" in these passages.
Me thinks that you are attempting to hold me to a standard to which you yourself are not willing to hold. What I told you is how I interpreted Paul's words. What you want is the exact words whether or not it was Paul's meaning.
Good. we are making progress. When one attributes something to someone, one must do the groundwork of proving one's point.
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Now, puting them together as you did one might get that impression. However, last time I checked Romans 8:4 did not come between 7:4 and 7:6. What does 7:5 say? "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work i...flesh, we have the hope that the may fully exemplify what the law was meant to convey.
The purpose of the law was to reveal that we are sinners and to direct us to Christ. Dying with Christ, we died to the law. IOW, the law had no effect on us. We are exempted from its penalties.
I know that is your position. However, we are talking about Rom. 7:4-6 here. Now, what is Paul saying here, as you say, using Paul's words.
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If fulfill means "paid in full" as you say, what's with this "type" stuff?
Words and phrases have more than one meaning. If you look in any dictionary you will find many words that have multiple definitions. One of the flaws of logical fallacies is to select the wrong definition and to accuse the other person of making an absurd statement. As for typology, typology was a part of their hermeneutic. I don't understand it all myself. If you follow the original context and word meaning, Isaiah 7 would be fulfilled in Isaiah's lifetime. What's more the Hebrew word "alma" is not all about a woman's sexual history. That is to say, its meaning isn't limited.
So either Matthew was taking Isaiah out of context or he was using another hermeneutic. There are those with whom I discussed this who say that Jews of the first century use another hermeneutic than we use today. And typology is among those. We have other examples in the NT. Some are expressed given as types, some are inferred.
Now you can get into all kinds of rigmarole about double-prophecies and stuff. I don't plan to. Now, back to our originally scheduled program please.
Emphasis Mine
If you recall, our "originally scheduled program", before we were redirected to this thread, was how to interpret a passage from the Tanach. Matthew is using the word fulfill to interpret the Tanach in that passage, you say that term is to be translated "paid in full". Now if you will conceed that there can be another way of interpreting that word, fine. Otherwise, this reference to typology is just another attempt at misdirection. You have stumbled upon my exact point. Interpreting fulfilled as "paid in full" is taking Isaiah out of context. Therefore, another hermeneutic is in play here. I contend that hermeneutic is that the term means fully exemplifies.
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Nope, I wasn't there. Gentiles were "grafted in." If I thought I was should I be concerned about being stoned or or me and my posterity ejected from the land of Israel?
If you did something worthy of that and were found guilty in a properly convened court of law. Much like penalties are meeted out here in the USA. Of course, Adonai's blessings and cursings do not require a human court. He enforces them Himself.
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Since the plural is your words, I can only assume this is another example of you making something up again. Use plural all you want. You have to document it from the NT scripture that we are still cursed by the law even though we have accepted Christ.
Are you saying that there is only one curse? Also, we are not cursed by the law, we are cursed as a natural result of our actions. HaTorah points this out. Now, if you are going to limit this discussion to only what is in the Apistolic Writings, why were we discussing Jeremiah when we were redirected to this thread?
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BT:2) We can acknowledge Adonai's ways and live under His blessing as He writes His Word on our hearts. The law is not subject to our ratification any more than the law of gravity is subject to our ratification. It is what it is. We can choose to recognize it or we can ignore it at our own peril.
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Really? Documentation please? And in the NT scriptures, not the OT.
De 5:29 "Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!"
I will address the rest later, out of time.
Oh. You mean so that they would not be stoned or exiled from the land of Israel?
Emphasis Mine
Yes, among other things, as the emphasis portion denotes.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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