RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread

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Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/19/2009 5:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread Paul tells us, (2Ti 3:16) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." If it is only profitable for dummies, then I guess I am one of them. Yes, Yeshua has shown us that there is more to it. However, how does showing one what something was really meant to communicate undo what was communiacted. Yes, is would clear up a misunderstanding, but it would not be saying, "Never mind, I just told you that until I could get here and tell you myself what I really wanted you to do. By the way, all those people who spent their lives doing what I told them before, no big deal, they were just dummies."? First of all, "Dummies" is a cultural reference to the books, the Dummies series. In other words, the people needed a book. A basic manual for being set aside. (tutor, teacher...) At some point the book is very elementary and it's time to grow up. Be transformed and move on. No, I'm not talking of the OT being obsolete. OT is part of the progression and rich, but it now must be viewed in LIGHT of the new testament of the new covenant... Yes, "All scripture...." But part of that scripture lays out a PROGRESSION of relationship between God and humanity. It's not worthless or lifeless to study and understand it.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/19/2009 9:30:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread Paul tells us, (2Ti 3:16) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." If it is only profitable for dummies, then I guess I am one of them. Yes, Yeshua has shown us that there is more to it. However, how does showing one what something was really meant to communicate undo what was communiacted. Yes, is would clear up a misunderstanding, but it would not be saying, "Never mind, I just told you that until I could get here and tell you myself what I really wanted you to do. By the way, all those people who spent their lives doing what I told them before, no big deal, they were just dummies."? First of all, "Dummies" is a cultural reference to the books, the Dummies series. In other words, the people needed a book. A basic manual for being set aside. (tutor, teacher...) At some point the book is very elementary and it's time to grow up. Be transformed and move on. No, I'm not talking of the OT being obsolete. OT is part of the progression and rich, but it now must be viewed in LIGHT of the new testament of the new covenant... Yes, "All scripture...." But part of that scripture lays out a PROGRESSION of relationship between God and humanity. It's not worthless or lifeless to study and understand it. I am aware of those books. I was just showing how inapproriate the analogy is. If HaTorah is a primer, why aren't now believers and "seekers" taken there first? The fact that HaTorah is generally relegated to selected children's stories, cultural history and doctrinal analogies seems to make this comparision a bit simplistic at best. If one wants to find what might be called "righteousness for dummies" one can puick up any of a number of books in the "discipleship" isle of any christian bookstore. I do think HaTorah is a good place to take the new believer to establish the foundations of the faith. However, I am not a real believer in the "dummy" books and "quick start" instructions. These usually create more bad habits than good and encourage actions taken without understanding. Many times users of these tools rarely go back to figure out how things really work.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/19/2009 9:52:02 PM)
And where do we get the idea that the torah is a tutor, teacher?...for the sinner, the unredeemed? Scripture tells us that God put a conscious in the non Jews so that they might recognise sin too. What!? Without the tutor? Yes. So much for coming to the kingdom as a child. And by the way, it is you that adds the description of children's stories, etc. I did not demean the Word, but rather described who/what that Word was for. In Christ we find all wisdom and knowledge.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/20/2009 5:51:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne And where do we get the idea that the torah is a tutor, teacher?...for the sinner, the unredeemed? The point of the "dummies" books is that they are introductions for those who are unfamiliar with what ever is being discussed. Thus, one would expect them to be used by those with little no knowledge ofthe topic. In the case of Adonai's ways, that would refer to the new believer or the "seeker". If, as some interpret Paul's statements, HaTorah being a schoolmaster that leads us to HaMeshiach means one does not need it once one has accepted Yeshua, then those would be the only people who could received benefit from HaTorah. Therefore, if that is one's view HaTorah should be required reading for all new believer's and seekers. Of course, I believe it is more than that. It is not as good as direct revelation from Adonai. However, as Paul tells us, it is valuable for identifying which revelations are truly from Adonai and developing principles for daily living and understanding Adonai. quote: Scripture tells us that God put a conscious in the non Jews so that they might recognise sin too. What!? Without the tutor? Yes. So much for coming to the kingdom as a child. Yes, I agree. I believe it is possible for Adonai to save someone based on direct revelation without the Scriptures. However, Paul seems to imply that this is an extremely exceptional circumstance. (Ro 10:14) "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" Therefore, knowledge of HaTorah and the Messianic principles found in the Tanach are very important for a proper understanding of salvation and our relationship with Adonai. quote: And by the way, it is you that adds the description of children's stories, etc. I did not demean the Word, but rather described who/what that Word was for. Yes, I was not refering to you specifically, but to a common view of the Tanach by many. quote: In Christ we find all wisdom and knowledge. Yes, but where do we find HaMeshiach, through direct revelation only? No, He also reveals Himself and thus wisdom and knowledge through the Scriptures.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/21/2009 5:38:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread Yes, I agree. I believe it is possible for Adonai to save someone based on direct revelation without the Scriptures. However, Paul seems to imply that this is an extremely exceptional circumstance. (Ro 10:14) "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" Therefore, knowledge of HaTorah and the Messianic principles found in the Tanach are very important for a proper understanding of salvation and our relationship with Adonai. It's not rare, it's the gentile experience. The preacher preaches Christ crucified.

frankman -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/21/2009 4:37:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread A "A" that`s great! It`s good to see your with us on this one. So let`s get back on topic and talk about the law. I just finished reading my "RBC" devotional from "Our Daily Bread" and I read something written by Philip Yancey subtitled "Legalism destroys our loving relationship with God." So what I`m posting today I`ve kind-of borrowed from his thought line. Why was Jesus so upset at the Pharisees that He called them serpents, broods of vipers, fools and hypocrites in Matt.23:13-33? The Pharisees devotedly followed God, tithed faithfally, and obeyed every law in the Torah. Yet Jesus fiercely denunced them. Why?? Jesus viewed the Pharisees view of legalism a toxic threat. In Matt.23:25-26 Jesus had this to say to the Pharisees. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisees! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." The reason why Jesus was angry was because the Pharisees were turning their love for God into a game of impressing others. So the proof of spiritual maturity is not how precise you obey the law, but how aware you are of your inability to obey the law. It is this awareness that opens the door to God`s grace.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/22/2009 7:58:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread Yes, I agree. I believe it is possible for Adonai to save someone based on direct revelation without the Scriptures. However, Paul seems to imply that this is an extremely exceptional circumstance. (Ro 10:14) "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" Therefore, knowledge of HaTorah and the Messianic principles found in the Tanach are very important for a proper understanding of salvation and our relationship with Adonai. It's not rare, it's the gentile experience. The preacher preaches Christ crucified. When the preacher preaches, that is not direct revelation. When Adonai speaks to the individual, that is direct revelation. It is the latter that is rare in isolation from the Scriptures, written or spoken. Now if the preacher preaches improperly, we have the same problem as with presumed direct revelation. That is why we have the Scritpures so we cant test the spirits and the preacher.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/22/2009 8:11:59 PM)
A person hearing the gospel from a preacher, does not go through the process of studying scripture and testing spirits. The Holy Spirit gives the life-giving revelation. The studying of scripture etc is part of the after coming into new life, life. You also seem to be ignoring the accounts of preaching that resulted in scads of conversions in one day etc in the NT era.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 3:42:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne A person hearing the gospel from a preacher, does not go through the process of studying scripture and testing spirits. The Holy Spirit gives the life-giving revelation. The studying of scripture etc is part of the after coming into new life, life. You also seem to be ignoring the accounts of preaching that resulted in scads of conversions in one day etc in the NT era. If you are refering to Acts 2, may I remind you that the Scriptures tell us, (Ac 2:5) "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." These people were familiar with the Scriptures with which to test Peter's words and determine if it was true that this was Adonai's Spirit and not the spirits that come from a bottle. In fact, Peter does not pull an Elmer Gantrey and expect to be believed based on his ability to preach or the the tongues of fire. No, he uses the Tanach.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 5:04:44 AM)
oops. Forgot about the Gentiles.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 5:23:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne oops. Forgot about the Gentiles. If you are saying I forgot about the gentiles, they were included as the passage says, (Acts 2:9-11) "Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"" If this passage was refering to nonprosolite gentiles, why was Peter given the dream regarding Cornelius in Acts 10?

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 5:35:55 PM)
Gentiles were a hard pill to swallow at first. You are saying the gospel was only preached to those that already knew scripture. Were the Gentiles compelled to become Jewish as part of coming to Christ? Paul's focus was on Gentiles. Where does he encourage that?

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 6:06:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne Gentiles were a hard pill to swallow at first. You are saying the gospel was only preached to those that already knew scripture. Were the Gentiles compelled to become Jewish as part of coming to Christ? Paul's focus was on Gentiles. Where does he encourage that? Yes, in the beginning they were compelled to undergo bar mitzvah. That is what the Jerusalem council was all about. Paul did use things that gentiles were familiar with. However, he usually transitioned into the teachings of HaTorah and the rest of the Tanach. His preaching to the greeks in Acts 17:26-28 is a good example. "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth;(genisis) and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.'"(monotheism as taught in the TANACH) The idea of the resurrection, a teaching of the Pharasees, was also uncommon among the greeks as later verses show. Therefore, though it is not required to become a prosolite to be saved, a gentile is generally given some instruction in the teachings of the Tanach before salvation. Even by those who do not intend on doing so.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 6:22:52 PM)
Of course Scripture and scriptural would be contained in preaching. This is not the same as schooling in doctrine so that they might test the spirits and compare what they are being taught to the Scripture. Note that I am not saying that scripture had no part in the preaching of the gospel. Further, being taught what is in scripture is not the same thing as requiring conforming to the practises contained BC. Oddly Paul wasn't above coming to the Greeks and explaining that their unknown God could actually be known. Quite a different route for revealing the true God, and the need for Christ. Where do you find Paul encouraging or approving of converting Gentiles to Judaism before coming to Christ, or AFTER for that matter?

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 6:38:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne Of course Scripture and scriptural would be contained in preaching. This is not the same as schooling in doctrine so that they might test the spirits and compare what they are being taught to the Scripture. Note that I am not saying that scripture had no part in the preaching of the gospel. Further, being taught what is in scripture is not the same thing as requiring conforming to the practises contained BC. Oddly Paul wasn't above coming to the Greeks and explaining that their unknown God could actually be known. Quite a different route for revealing the true God, and the need for Christ. Where do you find Paul encouraging or approving of converting Gentiles to Judaism before coming to Christ, or AFTER for that matter? I did not say Paul approved of it. Paul was persecuting the followers of Yeshua at the time of Act 2. I was just saying it was done. If it was not done why was it necessary for Adonai to encourage Peter to speak to a gentile in chapter 10. Even after this Paul had to confront Peter as is recorded in Gal 2:11-12 "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group."

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/23/2009 6:44:27 PM)
The (overall)point is that after the working through and the wrestling of it all, Gentiles were NOT required to become Jewish. So do you propose that now they should after all?

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 12:06:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne The (overall)point is that after the working through and the wrestling of it all, Gentiles were NOT required to become Jewish. So do you propose that now they should after all? No, they do not have to convert to rabbinic judaism. Should all of Abraham's children, genetic and adopted, live by Adonai's ways? Yes. Are you proposing that a jew should convert to a religion of the gentiles?

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 1:07:30 AM)
Which religion would that be?

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 1:15:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne Which religion would that be? Well, unitarianism for one.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 1:18:58 AM)
Nice red herring.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 1:22:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne Nice red herring. No redder than implying that encouraging others to live by Adonai's ways is requiring them to convert to rabbinic judaism.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 1:46:26 AM)
You're playing semantics games. What did the Jews that decided to follow Christ change in their practises? What did the Apostles forget to give instructions for in godly living?

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 2:50:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne You're playing semantics games. What did the Jews that decided to follow Christ change in their practises? What did the Apostles forget to give instructions for in godly living? No, I was responding to a bold question regarding the requirement of gentiles to convert to rabbinic judaism, when I had just pointed out that is what the Jerusalem council was addressing in the book of Acts. Are jews required to convert to unitarianism when they recognize Yeshua is HaMeshiach? Do you not remember what was decided at the Jerusalem council? In case you did not, they decided that it was not necessary for them to convert to rabbinic judaism, but that they should abstain from only certain activities to begin with because the writings of Moshe' are taught every Shabbat in the synogogues. I believe this implies that they would pick up the rest as they attended and discussed HaTorah. Regarding the practices of the jews, I would say, apart from not requiring rabbinic conversion, they changed nothing that they were not forced to change by those who did not follow HaMeshiach. Remember, there have always been many denominations of judaism, just as there are many denominations of christianity. Also, it is not a matter of forgetting. It's a matter of emphasising. The epistles were written to deal with particular issues, not as replacements for the Tanach. If that were the case, the Apostles would have said so in no uncertain terms and would have refrained from quoting from the Tanach. They did neither.

Corne -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 3:18:33 AM)
Yet the apostles did talk a lot about relationship to the law. Do you consider the rabbinic law/practises to be included in what leads to Christ? And quoting, studying all of scripture including the law does not equate to continuing every practise therein.

Bluethread -> RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread (9/24/2009 12:37:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Corne Yet the apostles did talk a lot about relationship to the law. Precisely, if HaTorah were no longer important there would be no need to clarify the relationship. It is precisely because it is important that great pains were taken to make sure it was understood properly. quote: Do you consider the rabbinic law/practices to be included in what leads to Christ? Rabbinic law/practices, no. HaTorah, Yes. quote: And quoting, studying all of scripture including the law does not equate to continuing every practise therein. No, but it does indicate acceptance of those practices in the absense of statements or actions to the contrary.

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