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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2009 4:14:16 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
[quote:
Do you consider the rabbinic law/practices to be included in what leads to Christ?
Rabbinic law/practices, no. HaTorah, Yes.
In John 19:30 Jesus cryed out from the cross "It is finished." If what Christ did for me on the cross and having faith in His finished work is not enough and I therefore still need the "Ha Torah law" than what is still lacking in the finished work of Christ for me on the cross?
Jesus said "IT" is finished, not I am finished. What do you believe the word "IT" means? I believe the word "IT" means my sins are paid in full. So why the taxes of the law when the bill is already paid in full?
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2009 4:46:59 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
Jesus said "IT" is finished, not I am finished. What do you believe the word "IT" means? I believe the word "IT" means my sins are paid in full. So why the taxes of the law when the bill is already paid in full?
Because the Law is not a tax.
You see a burden. I see liberty.
You see bondage. I see God's character shining through.
You see legalism. I see joy.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2009 6:06:07 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3043
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
[quote:
Do you consider the rabbinic law/practices to be included in what leads to Christ?
Rabbinic law/practices, no. HaTorah, Yes.
In John 19:30 Jesus cryed out from the cross "It is finished." If what Christ did for me on the cross and having faith in His finished work is not enough and I therefore still need the "Ha Torah law" than what is still lacking in the finished work of Christ for me on the cross?
First, the question was what leads to HaMeshich, not what saves. What is till lacking is the rest of your life. To this point, our sins are forgiven, however, the consequences Adonai attached to various actions still follow. If I chop off my hand, Adonai may very well reattach it or give me a new one. However, that is not the way He generally works. Paul had his thorn in the flesh for a reason. What reason specifically we do not know, but it followed from some action that occured earlier.
quote:
Jesus said "IT" is finished, not I am finished. What do you believe the word "IT" means? I believe the word "IT" means my sins are paid in full. So why the taxes of the law when the bill is already paid in full?
There are volumns published on just what "It" is. I believe "It" is the Sacrifice. Once a sacrifice is made, that does not take care of everything forever. One must then continue ones life. One does not have the burden of guilt any longer, but the day to day decisions still must be made. As rawr.ben points out HaTorah is not a tax, it is a guide book that, along with Adonai's Spirit, helps us make these decisions and leads us in Adonai's ways.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2009 6:13:04 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1818
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
Jesus said "IT" is finished, not I am finished. What do you believe the word "IT" means? I believe the word "IT" means my sins are paid in full. So why the taxes of the law when the bill is already paid in full?
Because the Law is not a tax.
You see a burden. I see liberty.
You see bondage. I see God's character shining through.
You see legalism. I see joy.
The bible calls the law a burden/yoke/bondage. Acts 15, Galatians ETC. The NT does not equate the law with liberty.
Show us where in the NT that the law is connected to liberty.
< Message edited by Corne -- 9/24/2009 6:23:46 PM >
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2009 9:31:39 PM
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cornergas
Posts: 369
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The old sacrificial system was termed a burden, and Jesus eliminated that with His supreme sacrifice on the Cross. God's law the ten commandments is the law of joy, and happiness..As the Apostle John said..."the commandmetns are not burdesome" and those who say they know God and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them. 1 John 2..and as Jesus said "if you love me keep my Commandments" and "to enter into life keep the Commandments"
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 12:47:05 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3043
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The bible calls the law a burden/yoke/bondage. Acts 15, Galatians ETC. The NT does not equate the law with liberty.
Show us where in the NT that the law is connected to liberty.
You start out with "the bible" then conclude with "the NT". Are these two the same thing? If not why not allow evedence from the whole of the Scriptures?
Regarding Acts 15, the term burden is used in vs.28 and refers to a burden the council is placing on new believers. "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;" Now, one could say that this is as an alternative to some other more difficult burden. It might be good then to look at what that more difficult burden is. This burden is given to us in vs.1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved."
Therefore, we are talking about circumcision as a requirement for salvation. Now, if you take "circumcised after the manner of Moses" as code for HaTorah, that is fair. However, it can just as easily be code for rabbinics. After all the rabbi's believed that they sat in the seat of Moshe'. But, either way, it has been long conceeded that keeping HaTorah is not a requirement for salvation.
So, are these requirements for salvation. vs. 29"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." Even this would be salvation by works. Therefore, these must refer to lifestyle requirements. Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted, the list in vs 29 must be comparative only or for a specific purpose. This might explain why Paul and others were sent along to clarifiy things.
Do we see something in the deliberations that might shed some light on what that clarification might have looked like. Well, the decision on which this note in verse 28 & 29 is based says, (vs. 19-21) "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
Therefore, new converts were not required to undergo bar mitzvah before being recognized as saved, but should be encouraged to avoid certain cultural things that are hot button issues, BECAUSE, they can pick up the rest as they join us each Shabbat and read the Scriptures. Thus the burden is not HaTorah, but the keeping of HaTorah for salvation or being excluded from fellowship until bar mitzvah.
Now, if you wish, please, point to the specific passages you are refering to in galations, etc. and we will look at them one by one in light of what we have just discussed.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/25/2009 1:01:00 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 2:55:45 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1818
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You start out with "the bible" then conclude with "the NT". Are these two the same thing? If not why not allow evedence from the whole of the Scriptures?
You implying that I don't respect the WHOLE of scripture, is getting OLD.
The law, that led to Christ must now be viewed through Him. Jesus talked a lot about the law. His authority over the law, and He demonstrated that fully keeping the law was not just inadequate for salvation but inadequate for living in a godly manner. Keeping the commandments didn't cover loving as He loved, presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, keeping from lust and sinful anger etc. The law does not fully instruct in godly living. His commandments were to take up your cross and follow me, and love as I have loved.
Your theory about the law in the NT is always that it is either, not for salvation but still required, or it's rabbinic. But taking into account all of what the NT says about the law, and that it never spells out what you theorize, that's a huge stretch.
quote:
Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted
Sure, it's entirely possible to take up your cross..., and love as Jesus loved and to be holy and perfect as He is, and still do those things. [end sarcasm]
Come on Bluethread, you keep playing that word game. We have discussed righteous living. The NT leaves no room for sin in its instruction for godly living. Neither does it indicate it's the OT LAW that we look to for our guideline. It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 3:02:08 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1818
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
The old sacrificial system was termed a burden, and Jesus eliminated that with His supreme sacrifice on the Cross. God's law the ten commandments is the law of joy, and happiness..As the Apostle John said..."the commandmetns are not burdesome" and those who say they know God and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them. 1 John 2..and as Jesus said "if you love me keep my Commandments" and "to enter into life keep the Commandments"
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
Jesus gave specific commandments, and indicated that righteous living could not be accomplished even in keeping the law.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 3:15:15 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1818
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
But, either way, it has been long conceeded that keeping HaTorah is not a requirement for salvation.
The law was a system for living and staying right with God. There's a new system, and part of the old system's job was to build in recognition for the validity of the new system for holy living and right relationship with God. You excise the sin paying, purifying elements of the old system out and then say the system is still whole.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 12:14:13 PM
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eterno
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/12/2009
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The laws only purpose in todays (post crucification world) is to expose the sins of the unbeliever. When you have accepted CHRIST then HIS life is in you. CHRIST "Paid for and Removed" the sins of the world. Therefore when we as Christians sin we will feel sorrow and agree with GOD about our sin, Thank him always for providing the only blood sacrifice sufficient to remove our sin through JESUS CHRIST. Knowing that JESUS lives, his life is ours and it is HIM that lives not us gives one more and more power to resist the sin that lives in our new creation. It is not our old self, our old self is dead but the power of sin that lives in us. None of this is of our own accord that we could boost of but all is because of our LORD.
Dale
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 12:30:23 PM
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eterno
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/12/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You start out with "the bible" then conclude with "the NT". Are these two the same thing? If not why not allow evedence from the whole of the Scriptures?
You implying that I don't respect the WHOLE of scripture, is getting OLD.
The law, that led to Christ must now be viewed through Him. Jesus talked a lot about the law. His authority over the law, and He demonstrated that fully keeping the law was not just inadequate for salvation but inadequate for living in a godly manner. Keeping the commandments didn't cover loving as He loved, presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, keeping from lust and sinful anger etc. The law does not fully instruct in godly living. His commandments were to take up your cross and follow me, and love as I have loved.
Your theory about the law in the NT is always that it is either, not for salvation but still required, or it's rabbinic. But taking into account all of what the NT says about the law, and that it never spells out what you theorize, that's a huge stretch.
quote:
Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted
Sure, it's entirely possible to take up your cross..., and love as Jesus loved and to be holy and perfect as He is, and still do those things. [end sarcasm]
Come on Bluethread, you keep playing that word game. We have discussed righteous living. The NT leaves no room for sin in its instruction for godly living. Neither does it indicate it's the OT LAW that we look to for our guideline. It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You start out with "the bible" then conclude with "the NT". Are these two the same thing? If not why not allow evedence from the whole of the Scriptures?
You implying that I don't respect the WHOLE of scripture, is getting OLD.
The law, that led to Christ must now be viewed through Him. Jesus talked a lot about the law. His authority over the law, and He demonstrated that fully keeping the law was not just inadequate for salvation but inadequate for living in a godly manner. Keeping the commandments didn't cover loving as He loved, presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, keeping from lust and sinful anger etc. The law does not fully instruct in godly living. His commandments were to take up your cross and follow me, and love as I have loved.
Your theory about the law in the NT is always that it is either, not for salvation but still required, or it's rabbinic. But taking into account all of what the NT says about the law, and that it never spells out what you theorize, that's a huge stretch.
quote:
Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted
Sure, it's entirely possible to take up your cross..., and love as Jesus loved and to be holy and perfect as He is, and still do those things. [end sarcasm]
Come on Bluethread, you keep playing that word game. We have discussed righteous living. The NT leaves no room for sin in its instruction for godly living. Neither does it indicate it's the OT LAW that we look to for our guideline. It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping.
Please clarify this statement: "It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping".
Cut of your hand..
Pluck out your eye..
Give away all your possessions and follow me..
Forgive us just as we forgive others.
Your righteousness must supersede that of the Pharisees.
And Last but not least,
Be PERFECT just as your Father in heaven is perfect
What message is in those?
Dale
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 1:48:30 PM
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eterno
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/12/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eterno
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You start out with "the bible" then conclude with "the NT". Are these two the same thing? If not why not allow evedence from the whole of the Scriptures?
You implying that I don't respect the WHOLE of scripture, is getting OLD.
The law, that led to Christ must now be viewed through Him. Jesus talked a lot about the law. His authority over the law, and He demonstrated that fully keeping the law was not just inadequate for salvation but inadequate for living in a godly manner. Keeping the commandments didn't cover loving as He loved, presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, keeping from lust and sinful anger etc. The law does not fully instruct in godly living. His commandments were to take up your cross and follow me, and love as I have loved.
Your theory about the law in the NT is always that it is either, not for salvation but still required, or it's rabbinic. But taking into account all of what the NT says about the law, and that it never spells out what you theorize, that's a huge stretch.
quote:
Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted
Sure, it's entirely possible to take up your cross..., and love as Jesus loved and to be holy and perfect as He is, and still do those things. [end sarcasm]
Come on Bluethread, you keep playing that word game. We have discussed righteous living. The NT leaves no room for sin in its instruction for godly living. Neither does it indicate it's the OT LAW that we look to for our guideline. It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You start out with "the bible" then conclude with "the NT". Are these two the same thing? If not why not allow evedence from the whole of the Scriptures?
You implying that I don't respect the WHOLE of scripture, is getting OLD.
The law, that led to Christ must now be viewed through Him. Jesus talked a lot about the law. His authority over the law, and He demonstrated that fully keeping the law was not just inadequate for salvation but inadequate for living in a godly manner. Keeping the commandments didn't cover loving as He loved, presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, keeping from lust and sinful anger etc. The law does not fully instruct in godly living. His commandments were to take up your cross and follow me, and love as I have loved.
Your theory about the law in the NT is always that it is either, not for salvation but still required, or it's rabbinic. But taking into account all of what the NT says about the law, and that it never spells out what you theorize, that's a huge stretch.
quote:
Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted
Sure, it's entirely possible to take up your cross..., and love as Jesus loved and to be holy and perfect as He is, and still do those things. [end sarcasm]
Come on Bluethread, you keep playing that word game. We have discussed righteous living. The NT leaves no room for sin in its instruction for godly living. Neither does it indicate it's the OT LAW that we look to for our guideline. It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping.
Please clarify this statement: "It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping".
Cut of your hand..
Pluck out your eye..
Give away all your possessions and follow me..
Forgive us just as we forgive others.
Your righteousness must supersede that of the Pharisees.
And Last but not least,
Be PERFECT just as your Father in heaven is perfect
What message is in those?
Dale
quote:
quote:
Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted
Actually:
Everything that I asked about and all the things that you mentioned are said and covered under the new covenant in this: Love the LORD your GOD with all your heart, all your mind, and love your neighbor as your self. This in fact according to the creator of all things sums up and will include all of the whole law.
So that My faith in not in keeping any part of the law..my faith is in the finished work of Christ.
Dale
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 1:58:35 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1818
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Therefore, new converts were not required to undergo bar mitzvah before being recognized as saved, but should be encouraged to avoid certain cultural things that are hot button issues, BECAUSE, they can pick up the rest as they join us each Shabbat and read the Scriptures. Thus the burden is not HaTorah, but the keeping of HaTorah for salvation or being excluded from fellowship until bar mitzvah.
Now, if you wish, please, point to the specific passages you are refering to in galations, etc. and we will look at them one by one in light of what we have just discussed.
What I hear is that this is a wide spread issue between Jewish believers and Gentiles because there is the reading of in every town.
Specific requirements are being described which directly relate to what Gentiles are coming out of and what is highly offensive to the Jews (like idolatry and the Roman practise of dtrinking wine mixed with blood).
The law in its entirety is called a burden. This is what many commentaries say they "hear" too.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 3:24:31 PM
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eterno
Posts: 51
Joined: 8/12/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Therefore, new converts were not required to undergo bar mitzvah before being recognized as saved, but should be encouraged to avoid certain cultural things that are hot button issues, BECAUSE, they can pick up the rest as they join us each Shabbat and read the Scriptures. Thus the burden is not HaTorah, but the keeping of HaTorah for salvation or being excluded from fellowship until bar mitzvah.
Now, if you wish, please, point to the specific passages you are refering to in galations, etc. and we will look at them one by one in light of what we have just discussed.
What I hear is that this is a wide spread issue between Jewish believers and Gentiles because there is the reading of in every town.
Specific requirements are being described which directly relate to what Gentiles are coming out of and what is highly offensive to the Jews (like idolatry and the Roman practise of dtrinking wine mixed with blood).
The law in its entirety is called a burden. This is what many commentaries say they "hear" too.
Mind if I join in? If you do just please ignore this post.
The law is truly a burden , in fact is intended to be such a burden that man can not bear it. It is supposed to break the back of the proud/arrogant man and turn him to The messiah prophesied through-out the Torah and our old testament. Therefore every man/woman's only hope is CHRIST crucified and resurrected...
Dale,
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 4:11:25 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3043
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You start out with "the bible" then conclude with "the NT". Are these two the same thing? If not why not allow evedence from the whole of the Scriptures?
You implying that I don't respect the WHOLE of scripture, is getting OLD.
I did not say that. I was just asking what constitutes evidence in this discussion. It is you that stated the premise that "The bible calls the law a burden/yoke/bondage." and then limits the response to "where in the NT". Shouldn't the scope of the responses match the scope of the premise?
quote:
The law, that led to Christ must now be viewed through Him. Jesus talked a lot about the law. His authority over the law, and He demonstrated that fully keeping the law was not just inadequate for salvation but inadequate for living in a godly manner. Keeping the commandments didn't cover loving as He loved, presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, keeping from lust and sinful anger etc. The law does not fully instruct in godly living. His commandments were to take up your cross and follow me, and love as I have loved.
This is how it has always been. HaTorah was never meant as a replacement for Adonai, but a representation of Adonai that He uses to communicate with us. Adonai's Spirit has always been neccessary for understanding the Scriptures. After all it is He who inspired them.
quote:
Your theory about the law in the NT is always that it is either, not for salvation but still required, or it's rabbinic. But taking into account all of what the NT says about the law, and that it never spells out what you theorize, that's a huge stretch.
There are many things that are not spelled out in the Scriptures. First, the word translated law in the Apistolic writings is genereally nomos, but not always. Second the word nomos has several definitions not all of them refering to HaTorah. Third, the term is subject to the context in which it is written. Therefore, one can not say the phrase "the law" in the english translations of the Apistolic Writings always refers to HaTorah as it is presented in the first five books of the bible. One must look at each verse determine the context, compare it with other passages and them determine, with the help of Adonai's Spirit, what is being communicated.
quote:
quote:
Now these say nothing about honoring ones father and mother, stealing, bearing false witness or covetousness. Does that mean that gentile converts can include such things in their lifestyles? Presuming these latter are not permitted
Sure, it's entirely possible to take up your cross..., and love as Jesus loved and to be holy and perfect as He is, and still do those things. [end sarcasm]
Come on Bluethread, you keep playing that word game. We have discussed righteous living. The NT leaves no room for sin in its instruction for godly living. Neither does it indicate it's the OT LAW that we look to for our guideline. It describes righteous living A LOT but not as law keeping.
But the point of the argument is that the gentiles do not need to keep HaTorah. This is one of the passages you raised as supporting that point. So, how does Acts 15 support that point? No words game involved, what were the gentiles being told to do?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 9:56:45 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 706
Joined: 11/30/2007
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The bible calls the law a burden/yoke/bondage. Acts 15, Galatians ETC. The NT does not equate the law with liberty.
Show us where in the NT that the law is connected to liberty.
< Message edited by Corne -- 9/24/2009 6:23:46 PM >
James 2:12, 4:11-12, Romans 8:2,4,7 **Romans 7:12, 14
In Matthew 19:16-21 Jesus, the Messiah, God manifested in the flesh, advised the rich young ruler to keep the Torah and follow Him. Why would Jesus admonish this man to bondage when he inquired about walking in eternal life?
I honestly understand you perspective and geniunely understand how you come to view Torah in such a negative light. The years of preaching, teaching in westernized Christianity causes one to have skewed lenses over our understanding. I remember arguing back and forth, debating vehemently with those who were trying to explain what Torah really means. No amount of posting will convince you, it will take the Spirit of the Living God to reveal and give you understanding. I hope that this is not viewed as us beating anyone over the head with Torah trying to put you under bondage. As Rawr.Ben said earlier this is liberty. In fact King David agrees, see Psalms 119:45, 47.
Eterno, Torah is suppose to reveal the very depth of our sinfulness. The key word is our sinfulness...not the sinfulness or uselessness of the Torah, but the weakness of sinful flesh which is unable to keep it. The Holy Spirit is the One who gives us power so that we can walk in truth, and according to Psalms 119:142 and other Scriptures, the Torah is the Truth. Jesus is the way, truth...because He is the Word (Torah) incarnate as John 1:1 tells us.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2009 10:19:17 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 706
Joined: 11/30/2007
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The book of James has been a book of much debate and controversy by early scholars because it appears to contradict Paul's writings and he speaks very highly of the Law. Which is why I pointed those Scriptures out in my previous post. It would be a wise undertaking to study his and Paul's writings carefully, understanding that Oral Law was a major player in the scenes in this timeframe.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2009 12:10:50 PM
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frankman
Posts: 254
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
Jesus said "IT" is finished, not I am finished. What do you believe the word "IT" means? I believe the word "IT" means my sins are paid in full. So why the taxes of the law when the bill is already paid in full?
There are volumns published on just what "It" is. I believe "It" is the Sacrifice. Once a sacrifice is made, that does not take care of everything forever. One must then continue ones life. One does not have the burden of guilt any longer, but the day to day decisions still must be made. As rawr.ben points out HaTorah is not a tax, it is a guide book that, along with Adonai's Spirit, helps us make these decisions and leads us in Adonai's ways.
True, the Lord`s sufferings are now finished. It also means many of the Old Testament types and prophecies are now fulfilled. The once and for all sacrifice for sin is now completed. Also when Jesus died on the cross He fully met the righteous demands of the holy law. He paid our debt in full. While the O.T. sacrifices couldn`t take away sin but only cover sin, Jesus blood for us has taken away our sins forever. Now all we can do is believe in what Jesus has done for us by faith. You say there is still more we must do after we have made this decision by faith on a day to day bases in order to be fully saved. Makes sense, but SORRY you are to late with this viewpoint. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. It has all been done for you by CHRIST.
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2009 2:20:44 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3043
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
Jesus said "IT" is finished, not I am finished. What do you believe the word "IT" means? I believe the word "IT" means my sins are paid in full. So why the taxes of the law when the bill is already paid in full?
There are volumns published on just what "It" is. I believe "It" is the Sacrifice. Once a sacrifice is made, that does not take care of everything forever. One must then continue ones life. One does not have the burden of guilt any longer, but the day to day decisions still must be made. As rawr.ben points out HaTorah is not a tax, it is a guide book that, along with Adonai's Spirit, helps us make these decisions and leads us in Adonai's ways.
True, the Lord`s sufferings are now finished. It also means many of the Old Testament types and prophecies are now fulfilled. The once and for all sacrifice for sin is now completed. Also when Jesus died on the cross He fully met the righteous demands of the holy law. He paid our debt in full. While the O.T. sacrifices couldn`t take away sin but only cover sin, Jesus blood for us has taken away our sins forever. Now all we can do is believe in what Jesus has done for us by faith. You say there is still more we must do after we have made this decision by faith on a day to day bases in order to be fully saved. Makes sense, but SORRY you are to late with this viewpoint. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. It has all been done for you by CHRIST.
I did not say, "in order to be fully saved". The Sacrifice takes care of the guilt of sin, but it does not remove the ability to sin. Once one is saved, that one is then to live in newness of life. HaTorah, as interpreted by Yeshua, the Apostles and the Prophets, is the best reference we have with regard to how to do that. It is possible to live souly on personnal revelation. However, I have seen no consistancy in the lifestyles of those who choose to live that way.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/26/2009 3:58:13 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2009 3:20:29 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2503
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
True, the Lord`s sufferings are now finished. It also means many of the Old Testament types and prophecies are now fulfilled. The once and for all sacrifice for sin is now completed. Also when Jesus died on the cross He fully met the righteous demands of the holy law. He paid our debt in full. While the O.T. sacrifices couldn`t take away sin but only cover sin, Jesus blood for us has taken away our sins forever. Now all we can do is believe in what Jesus has done for us by faith. You say there is still more we must do after we have made this decision by faith on a day to day bases in order to be fully saved. Makes sense, but SORRY you are to late with this viewpoint. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. It has all been done for you by CHRIST.
The Law isn't about getting yourself saved or having your sins removed.
It is about living a righteous life that pleases the Lord, to walk in His ways, to be holy and pure before Him, to grow closer to Him, and learn and understand His character.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2009 3:35:03 PM
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frankman
Posts: 254
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
True, the Lord`s sufferings are now finished. It also means many of the Old Testament types and prophecies are now fulfilled. The once and for all sacrifice for sin is now completed. Also when Jesus died on the cross He fully met the righteous demands of the holy law. He paid our debt in full. While the O.T. sacrifices couldn`t take away sin but only cover sin, Jesus blood for us has taken away our sins forever. Now all we can do is believe in what Jesus has done for us by faith. You say there is still more we must do after we have made this decision by faith on a day to day bases in order to be fully saved. Makes sense, but SORRY you are to late with this viewpoint. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. It has all been done for you by CHRIST.
The Law isn't about getting yourself saved or having your sins removed.
It is about living a righteous life that pleases the Lord, to walk in His ways, to be holy and pure before Him, to grow closer to Him, and learn and understand His character.
1 John 5:3 states "This is love for God: to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome."
Here is what this verse does not mean. Man trying to please God in his own strength. This is called the burden of religion and is grievous. So man trying to obey the law in order to please God is a burden and is grievous.
 So what does the verse mean? It means if we love God and therefore because we love Him we joyfully seek to obey Him. In other words, to obey in order to please God is wrong. To obey because you love God is right. If you learn to obey God because you love Him it beomes a joy and not a burden.
 Loving God is also loving your fellow man. Love is taking care of a sick person even if it means working a shift in a busy hospital in violation of the 4th Commandment. Love means being honest towards others. Love means loving others more than we love ourselves. Love may mean working a shift at your corner gas station on the Sabbath so other employees may enjoy a week-end off also. It is love that lightens the burden.
This agape love may only be found by casting the burden of the old law at Jesus feet. That`s why Jesus says in Matt.11:28-30 "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2009 4:58:59 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3043
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
1 John 5:3 states "This is love for God: to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome."
Here is what this verse does not mean. Man trying to please God in his own strength. This is called the burden of religion and is grievous. So man trying to obey the law in order to please God is a burden and is grievous.
So what does the verse mean? It means if we love God and therefore because we love Him we joyfully seek to obey Him. In other words, to obey in order to please God is wrong. To obey because you love God is right. If you learn to obey God because you love Him it beomes a joy and not a burden.
Loving God is also loving your fellow man. Love is taking care of a sick person even if it means working a shift in a busy hospital in violation of the 4th Commandment. Love means being honest towards others. Love means loving others more than we love ourselves. Love may mean working a shift at your corner gas station on the Sabbath so other employees may enjoy a week-end off also. It is love that lightens the burden.
This agape love may only be found by casting the burden of the old law at Jesus feet. That`s why Jesus says in Matt.11:28-30 "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
This is a rather presumptious argument. How does one know that another one is not keeping the commandments out of love and as empowered by Adonai's Spirit? The whole idea that "trying to obey the law in order to please God" is the converse of loving Adonai makes no sense. If some one loves another, they try to please the other, or at least do what is in the other's best interests. If someone loves Adonai and obeys His commands in an effort to please Him. Where is the problem. Should a man fault his wife for not loving him, because she does what he told her to do in an effort to please him? Yes, our love for Adonai and the companionship of His Spirit makes light any burden associated with keeping HaTorah. However, your argument reminds me of a lyric from an Eric Clapton song. "I got a problem, can you relate, I got a woman calling love hate."
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2009 1:30:03 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1818
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The bible calls the law a burden/yoke/bondage. Acts 15, Galatians ETC. The NT does not equate the law with liberty.
Show us where in the NT that the law is connected to liberty.
< Message edited by Corne -- 9/24/2009 6:23:46 PM >
James 2:12, 4:11-12, Romans 8:2,4,7 **Romans 7:12, 14
In Matthew 19:16-21 Jesus, the Messiah, God manifested in the flesh, advised the rich young ruler to keep the Torah and follow Him. Why would Jesus admonish this man to bondage when he inquired about walking in eternal life?
I honestly understand you perspective and geniunely understand how you come to view Torah in such a negative light. The years of preaching, teaching in westernized Christianity causes one to have skewed lenses over our understanding. I remember arguing back and forth, debating vehemently with those who were trying to explain what Torah really means. No amount of posting will convince you, it will take the Spirit of the Living God to reveal and give you understanding. I hope that this is not viewed as us beating anyone over the head with Torah trying to put you under bondage. As Rawr.Ben said earlier this is liberty. In fact King David agrees, see Psalms 119:45, 47.
Eterno, Torah is suppose to reveal the very depth of our sinfulness. The key word is our sinfulness...not the sinfulness or uselessness of the Torah, but the weakness of sinful flesh which is unable to keep it. The Holy Spirit is the One who gives us power so that we can walk in truth, and according to Psalms 119:142 and other Scriptures, the Torah is the Truth. Jesus is the way, truth...because He is the Word (Torah) incarnate as John 1:1 tells us.
I do not see the Torah (as in a specific portion of scripture) in a negative light, I see it as having a different role post ressurection (more specifically the Torah commandments)
I don't view the Torah as the entire Word of God and to call Jesus the living Torah is diminishing. I see John revealing so much more that that in his declaration.
In Matthew 19 I see Jesus as demonstrating that the law was completely inadequate and that so much more was required. It is all through the NT, the old view of the law vs the new view of righteousness. The law leaves us lacking. We are no longer to watch that we do not murder, but we are to keep our hearts clean even from unrighteous anger (etc). It's so silly to hear in these discussions, "Oh, does that mean we can murder?" How could it possibly mean that?
We don't look to the commandments for our standard anymore. Our standard is Jesus.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2009 1:32:45 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1818
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
The Law isn't about getting yourself saved or having your sins removed.
It is about living a righteous life that pleases the Lord, to walk in His ways, to be holy and pure before Him, to grow closer to Him, and learn and understand His character.
Then NT describes righteous living A LOT.
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RE: Keep the Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2009 2:25:05 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 706
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I gave you plain Scriptures in the NT? I think what you may not be seeing is that God's teachings and instructions or the Torah was and ever will be about the heart. Deut. 5:29, Psalms 51, Prov. 3 and other Scriptures in the OT reveal this. Yeshua taught that to deal with sin in it's infancy stage is tantamount, which is the human heart. This is the planning area of everything we do that is right and wrong, so what I see is that just like Jeremiah 31:31-34 plainly tells us, the Torah is to writ upon our hearts...He rightly interpreted the Torah. It's new in the sense of location and not a clay tablet but still valid and applicable not writ upon the human heart.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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