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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/26/2008 1:46:34 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
dyluck:
We are not saved by works but by belief in Jesus... which is followed by Faith and Repentance.
The idea of live like a hellion and then "ah don't worry jesus forgives me" mantality as portrayed in your statement above does not give me assurance... This is EXACTLY what this verse is talking about.
I don't believe that this is what d4nnyb0y02 is saying. I can't speak for him, but I believe that we should be changed when we are saved. If others can't see it, at the least, we should. But I think the important point is that the Bible doesn't say that if there is an unconfessed sin when you die, then you go to hell. If that were the case, anyone who hadn't overcome a certain sin in his or her life would go to hell. Suppose a Christian was driving in a car with his friend, and the friend asked him a personal question about, I don't know, girls. The guy was embarassed about the question so he lied about the answer. The next second, they get into a car accident and both die. Now the Christian hadn't confessed his sin of lying, so do you believe that he would go to hell for that? Is lying any less of an abomination to the Lord than suicide is? But the Christian did confess his sin. He did when he accepted Jesus as his Savior. And Jesus died for all of our sins, not just certain ones. Yes, we do need to repent, but if a Christian dies with an unrepented sin, I believe God's grace is abundant.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/26/2008 3:13:41 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 470
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John 21:22 NIV
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/26/2008 8:49:35 PM
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dyluck
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Johnfortean6
There is a vast difference between confession and willful sin (which is what we are talking about here). there is also a vast difference between confession and repentance (which is what we are talking about here). I want you to tell me at what point one is saved? when they ask Jesus into their heart or when they are changed?... I can't even count the amount of people that call themselves a Christian, asked Jesus In their heart believe they are saved and live the exact same lives as before. A good sign in this circumstance that you are changed would be the thought of suicide would no longer be a way out but you would detest it and probably think "why did I even think that? I thought that?! I entertained that thought?!" and if they did think it again, they would be so upset and mourn (blessed are they that mourn) about the sin of that thought. "I want to live a fruitful life for God!". (maybe even wanting to help people in that situation).
quote:
John 21:22 NIV
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
terryjohn, can you elaborate your point in this verse?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 2:06:24 AM
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Casper22
Posts: 70
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
For those who have lost loved ones to suicide like myself, are you going let the devastation of suicide control your life, swallow you up and leave you shattered forever to possibly commit suicide yourself, or will you let God put the pieces back together and have faith in Him that His understanding is beyond our own and we NEED to lean on His goodness?
Absolutely! It took years for me to get to the place of peace and rest in the Lord. I used to wonder and question ans scream why? Now I have peace with the acceptance that He is God and knows better than I could even begin to understand.
I stand on God's Word and do not doubt!
Im still working on finding my Peace with it and I find myself dealing with anger now instead of sorrow. I do think though this thread is sort of a double edged sword. Im sure the poster had good intentions but after reading some of these responces im glad now ive stayed away. No Pentecostal, Catholic or Arminianist will EVER convince me my mom is burning in hell now for what she did the lord and savior I serve isnt that cruel or vindictive. If he was none of us would have no chance to make it into heaven. None of us except for those who deem themselves perfect and uncorrupt.
I just want to know why she did it her letter didnt say enough
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 2:17:33 AM
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Casper22
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Im sorry I didnt meen to generalise by using the words Catholic or Pentecostal. I made those sound dirty and I do apologies.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 10:48:24 AM
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jonfortean6
Posts: 998
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quote:
dyluck
Johnfortean6
There is a vast difference between confession and willful sin (which is what we are talking about here). there is also a vast difference between confession and repentance (which is what we are talking about here). I want you to tell me at what point one is saved? when they ask Jesus into their heart or when they are changed?... I can't even count the amount of people that call themselves a Christian, asked Jesus In their heart believe they are saved and live the exact same lives as before. A good sign in this circumstance that you are changed would be the thought of suicide would no longer be a way out but you would detest it and probably think "why did I even think that? I thought that?! I entertained that thought?!" and if they did think it again, they would be so upset and mourn (blessed are they that mourn) about the sin of that thought. "I want to live a fruitful life for God!". (maybe even wanting to help people in that situation).
Hi dyluck,
Well, the Bible says in Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
So repentance is first, and then regeneration follows. Now there are some people who confess to be Christians, but they never really believed that Jesus could or would save them from their sins, or maybe they didn't accept Him because they wanted to keep living the way they had been living. But their are also some Christians that realize they are sinners and are trusting God that Jesus will be a satisfactory payment for their sins, and they are clinging to Jesus as their hope into heaven, but they never grow that much spiritually. As a matter of fact, some of Paul's letters were written to Christians who were saved, but were not maturing spiritually.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 11:13:19 AM
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disciplelife
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This topic seems to have everyone in turmoil, so I couldn't resist chiming in. When the 9/11 attack had people leaping to their deaths to avoid being burned to death, this became a hot-button issue in our Sunday School class. The question arose concerning whether or not the believers amongst these people would see Heaven. As always, folks will draw their own conclusions based upon their interpretation of God's Word (Right away, people want to bring up the Judas thing, not nearly comparative). Can you murder yourself? If those believer's were right with God, would they be accepted? Would God understand not wanting to be burned alive? After all, did not some martyrs die tied to burning stakes? Seeing as how they did not die in the name or cause of the Lord, would that matter? This is what we concluded: Nowhere in the Bible is it drawn out, in clarity, what happens when someone takes their own life. Whether or not a person is right with their walk, or whether or not they of a right mind, this is one of those mysteries that is in God's hands entirely!
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 11:32:46 AM
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Kath
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I have just removed a few off topic posts about Once Saved Always Saved. That is not the topic for this thread. I have already warned several times in this thread not to go off topic by discussing OSAS. Take it to the appropriate One Stop Thread, which I have linked for you below.
Once Saved Always Saved:
Click Here
Sincerely
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< Message edited by Kath -- 9/27/2008 5:39:06 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 4:43:02 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
This topic seems to have everyone in turmoil, so I couldn't resist chiming in. When the 9/11 attack had people leaping to their deaths to avoid being burned to death, this became a hot-button issue in our Sunday School class. The question arose concerning whether or not the believers amongst these people would see Heaven. As always, folks will draw their own conclusions based upon their interpretation of God's Word (Right away, people want to bring up the Judas thing, not nearly comparative). Can you murder yourself? If those believer's were right with God, would they be accepted? Would God understand not wanting to be burned alive? After all, did not some martyrs die tied to burning stakes? Seeing as how they did not die in the name or cause of the Lord, would that matter? This is what we concluded: Nowhere in the Bible is it drawn out, in clarity, what happens when someone takes their own life. Whether or not a person is right with their walk, or whether or not they of a right mind, this is one of those mysteries that is in God's hands entirely!
1stly Martyers are not suicides. There is a clear difference between the two. Martyers don't want to die, but given a choice to die in place of a friend or for God is not suicide, otherwise you are saying Jesus is a suicide and Jesus is sinless.
People in the twin towers who were jumping are not suicides either. They were going to die outside their will anyway, perhaps some thought they had a better chance living buy jumping. I would say the majority of jumps were out of self preservation. I've seen stories where people have skydived, fallen hundreds of feet and lived.
Yes in the bible it does say murder is a sin... Also willful habitual/continious sinning is not santified as I explained (probably in one of the posts that were removed).
Hebrews 10:26-30
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Lastly what about what the bible says about sin that leads to death?...
Romans 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
So I'm going to make a point here. There is an unforgivable sin "Blaspheming the action of Holy Spirit". But there is also sin that leads to death (suicide) - It says to not pray from them.... Why???? Because they are dead and unfortunatly because the sin is absolute, and they are dead, their fate is sealed and there is nothing that person can do to turn from sin. A true believer does not entertain habitual sin and does not continue sinning willfully nor will they commit a sin that leads to death. These are regarded to God as illigitimate children. Again, self murder is willfull sin. If someone forced you to kill yoursef and it was not your will at all to die, then this is no longer suicide.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 5:28:59 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17132
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
How do you come up with that that particular sentence pertains to suicide? I've never thought that is what it meant and I've been reading commentaries to make sure I didn't mistake it. Nothing I've read says anything, or hints at, suicide.
reading Matthew Henry's commentary on this verse:
Such are total impenitence and unbelief for the present. Final impenitence and unbelief are infallibly to death eternal, as also a blaspheming of the Spirit of God in the testimony that he has given to Christ and his gospel, and a total apostasy from the light and convictive evidence of the truth of the Christian religion.
We cannot pray that the sins of the impenitent and unbelieving should, while they are such, be forgiven them, or that any mercy of life or soul, that suppose the forgiveness of sin, should be granted to them, while they continue such. But we may pray for their repentance (supposing them but in the common case of the impenitent world), for their being enriched with faith in Christ, and thereupon for all other saving mercies. 4. In case it should appear that any have committed the irremissible blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, and the total apostasy from the illuminating convictive powers of the Christian religion, it should seem that they are not to be prayed for at all.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/27/2008 9:50:36 PM
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dyluck
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Well here is our issue to begin with... There is no verse that directly says "suicide is unforgiven or forgiven", we all agree it is sin, yet in the bible it doesn't actually say suicide is sin.
The only way we corilate suicide to sin is link it to murder and link it to selfish acts.
So here is the delema no? The bible doesn't say that we shouldn't look at pornography; however, we know it is a sin. We have to corilate it with its root, adultry, lust, fornication and sexual immorality.
Now in this circumstance, Suicide isn't in the bible in its whole, but we can look at it's root. Murder.
Now look below:
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Well in context of this verse, "the unbelieving" are separated from the rest. This (among tonnes of other versus) indicates that the opposite of "unbelieving" is "believing" therefore this verse is talking about Christians living in sinful, habitual unrepented sin... Their place will be the same place as "the unbelieving".
Now a murderer who comes to Christ and REPENTS of that sin (turns away from it) is forgiven among the stumblings we have during life. I do not believe Suicide is a stumble, it's too absolute for that. You aren't even giving God a chance to pick you up, dicipline you and send you down the narrow path again. Now a beleiver knows the truth doesn't go on sinning (willfully). He may stumble, but God knows his heart. If he continues to murder, he is not saved.
This directly relates to Suicide. I think if we can't see that, then one would say suicide is not a sin and that is simply not true.
Now what I was talking about in the previous statment was that there is a sin that leads to death.
This verse is talking about a brother (a fellow Christian) not an unbeliever.
Also, the greek word used for "a sin" is nominated in Nominative Singular Feminine - amartia
All other biblical references to this same word are used in the same Nominative Singular Feminine or Dative - used in corialtion with not "A sin" (as in 1 sin) but "sin"
- Direct translation is : estin amartia pros thanaton "is/are sin unto death"
Now in other translation it even distinguishes separate from the singular -
Hamartia - From hamartano; a sin (properly abstract) -- offence, sin(-ful). This verse isn't using hamartano... its using hamartia or amartia in the two different translation. Im not a greek languange professinal or anything, but I believe through process of elimination, this verse doesn't seem to refer to "a (one) sin", but "sin". If we look at the previous verse I gave, is an example.
It corilates with 2 Peter 10:26-31
Lastly here is another interseting set of scripture later on in this chapter I never noticed till now:
2 Peter 10:35-39 "35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."
I believe straight up "shrink back" are ones who fallen away, don't trust in the Lord and lean on their own understanding. the lord says "in all your ways acknoledge me and I will make your path straight". It is not the will of God to kill ones self. Nor is it the Will of God we go on sinning.
< Message edited by dyluck -- 9/27/2008 10:26:27 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/28/2008 4:31:52 AM
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Casper22
Posts: 70
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
This topic seems to have everyone in turmoil, so I couldn't resist chiming in. When the 9/11 attack had people leaping to their deaths to avoid being burned to death, this became a hot-button issue in our Sunday School class. The question arose concerning whether or not the believers amongst these people would see Heaven. As always, folks will draw their own conclusions based upon their interpretation of God's Word (Right away, people want to bring up the Judas thing, not nearly comparative). Can you murder yourself? If those believer's were right with God, would they be accepted? Would God understand not wanting to be burned alive? After all, did not some martyrs die tied to burning stakes? Seeing as how they did not die in the name or cause of the Lord, would that matter? This is what we concluded: Nowhere in the Bible is it drawn out, in clarity, what happens when someone takes their own life. Whether or not a person is right with their walk, or whether or not they of a right mind, this is one of those mysteries that is in God's hands entirely!
1stly Martyers are not suicides. There is a clear difference between the two. Martyers don't want to die, but given a choice to die in place of a friend or for God is not suicide, otherwise you are saying Jesus is a suicide and Jesus is sinless.
People in the twin towers who were jumping are not suicides either. They were going to die outside their will anyway, perhaps some thought they had a better chance living buy jumping. I would say the majority of jumps were out of self preservation. I've seen stories where people have skydived, fallen hundreds of feet and lived.
Yes in the bible it does say murder is a sin... Also willful habitual/continious sinning is not santified as I explained (probably in one of the posts that were removed).
Hebrews 10:26-30
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Lastly what about what the bible says about sin that leads to death?...
Romans 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
So I'm going to make a point here. There is an unforgivable sin "Blaspheming the action of Holy Spirit". But there is also sin that leads to death (suicide) - It says to not pray from them.... Why???? Because they are dead and unfortunatly because the sin is absolute, and they are dead, their fate is sealed and there is nothing that person can do to turn from sin. A true believer does not entertain habitual sin and does not continue sinning willfully nor will they commit a sin that leads to death. These are regarded to God as illigitimate children. Again, self murder is willfull sin. If someone forced you to kill yoursef and it was not your will at all to die, then this is no longer suicide.
Sin that leads to death? Im kind of confused about your analogy here. If a person continues to live in sin then I can see where death would come in but. What type of death is this implying? The scripture says the sin that leads to death that to me says nothing about spiritual death. Just death, ceasing to exhist on earth, dieing ect.
What scares some more than anything? Is it not the sting of death? Would it not be safe to say that its a fitting punishment for a nonrepentant. Death is that scary little thing that mommy and daddy cant protect us from it is the only thing we deal with on our own physically.
I dont know some of this really has me confused and scared. I cant look at some of this subjectively a part of me wants to scream, rant and rave and curse at you Dyluck because a part of me sees you trying to rip the last bit of hope out of me and others who have hope of seeing there precious loved ones who did commit suicide even tho I do know thats not what your trying to do. Then the part of me thats trying to be subjective sees what your saying and all it does is cause despair for me and I wonder if God really is worth it. And how can this NOT be about OSAS when at the core of the question thats what its about! Lord the rules can be unkind sometimes.
Dyluck I hope im saying your name right. Surely you know about clinical depression right, chemical embalances ect when a person such as my mom that did this was NOT in her right mind her church would not allow her to get the help she needed do you honestly think God is going to hold it against her soul for feeling her only way out was death? What kind of monster is this God if the answer is yes! God forgive me but im about to touch on blasphemy here and get myself baned for life never mind im stopping here
take care
as your faith is so be it
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/28/2008 12:57:55 PM
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dyluck
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Casper please PM me I want to share something with you.
On general discussion
I just want to reidderate, I am saying this in context to people that know full well what they are doing, I am not talking about people with uncontrolable chemical imbalances and mental disorders. In the end God will judge though, I am saying don't take the chance.
We have to remember this life is about God's glory. It is not about us but about Him. We live for him. Unfortunatly this has been twisted in many churches into thinking "what can I get from God".
I am not discrediting the grace of God in my statements, but we must not trample his sacrifice underfoot nor willfully sin/abuse his Grace.
This should not be a discuragement Casper, it should be encouragement to live for Him!! Glorify him for his grace upon you and me! WE ARE STILL HERE WOOT!!  There is an assurance of salvation and it is in the supernatural change that God does with you when you are truly born again, when you are dead to sin and alive in Christ. A New creature! Where the thought of the act of sin becomes detestable to you. Where after you sin, you are brought to brokeness and mourning over it. You immediatly come to repentance.
Yes love those who are gone, but there is nothing on this earth that you can do for them, they have made their choices and are in the hands of God right now. You are not responsible for their redemption. God has given YOU a chance, This is what it is about, his grace abounds in our life! Take it Casper :)
Unfortuately, these things happen, will happen and have happend. I can only say the truth from the word. If you read the end of 2 Corinthians, Paul says he wrote his letters because he didn't want to be harsh in person and have them be discouraged when he is harshly speaking encouragement. Love is not always easy, nor is it butterflies and rainbows. God's truth has eternal concequences and we are not to take it lightly.
Please brother, understand this is not an attack on you, or anyone else who has gone through pain because of another's choice. This topic is "is suicide forgiven" we must all here expect both sides of the spectrium. I'm sure you understand that I don't want to beat around the bush with this subject because I do not want to see any more brothers and sisters take this way out!!!! It is still absolute. Please do not read these posts if you feel are not strong enough to see the side you may dissagree with. I do not want to cause a brother to stumble by any means. Please learn from the word and use your experience to help others in this situation! that is what God calls us to do. You my friend are a victim of suicide and what better chance to glorify God by helping others. Just like those who have conqured drugs and are now helping others. You my friend have overcome something very drastic! I encourage you, draw your strength from God, he will give it!
Lastly "a sin that leads to death" has been taken both ways, but I simply believe old-school physical death. Sin that causes you to die. I believe that God does forgive you for sin and if you sin when you die, there is forgiveness for that; however, if your sin is utterly willfull and leads to death... God will judge anyway... (I believe there is grace for those who's minds are disabled and God knows their hearts, and that really what it will come to in their circumstance. I think he only knows the degree in which their disibility left them in/out of control).
If you love him, use your life to Glorify him, follow him, please him. Stay away from sinful nature. We are aliens in this world! If you feel what you do does not please God, stop and turn the other way!!! If you notice and are broken by your sin! This is a sign of your assurance
Salvation is a Gift and it must be taken. Being Christian is not easy and if someone said to you "its as easy as a 5 minute prayer" you were lied to. The race is not finished until we die.
1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Acts 20:24
However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Paul was taking about fighting the good fight.. your "race" isn't finished until you die.
2 Timothy 4:6-8 "6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."
Humbley and with brotherly love
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/28/2008 1:58:29 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 470
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quote:
John 21:22 NIV
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
I think Christ with regard to this topic would say, it has nothing to do with us considering that we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
The very fact that someone should want to ask Christ this question makes me gringe for it sounds that they are about to bring an accusation against the righteousness of God itself. That is God is not good if He would allow this or that to happen. I mean what will we do if Chirst were to give us the answer we are not expecting? If we propse giving up our faith as some have done in the face of the death of loved ones, we are not worthy of Him.
Faith demands that we resist idle speculations about the state of the dead when our concern should be for the living. Faith also states that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord for it is well with my soul.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/28/2008 3:09:12 PM
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dyluck
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Well said terryjohn. Although this topic is about "is suicide forgiven" - The topic technically has no bearing those who have already passed, their fate is already sealed. but it should affect the decisions of those still alive!
It all boils down to justification. This subject is of the utmost difficulty because it is an absolute act (cannot be changed or turned away from once it has been carried out and completed).
We truly must focus on our brothers and sisters that are living. The ones struggling with thoughts of suicide and depression! Comfort the victims left behind from a suicide. We must be a shoulder for them! Lift them up. Jesus has so much in store for this life that even the lowest most horrible parts and situations on earth are worth overcoming in pain... the reward is great!
Those who are clinicly depressed, try focusing and drawing joy from the awesomeness of the glory of Almighty God! In your weakness, God will give you strength. Go outside and look at the awesomeness of this world and the beauty of it to have a small understanding of his glory. Use your depression to glorify him, use your anguish in morning for those who do not have him and over sin. Jesus can and will prevail over even the most troubled of mental disorder. Your faith is the medium. Your goal is others.
You are right. Don't reject God becase of situations here. this is one of he biggest tools the wolf in sheeps clothing uses to jump on you... a wounded sheep... Just keep in mind that we submit to an almighty Holy God and we cannot rationilize with a Holy God. We will not and cannot understand his perfection. God gave us choice and we cannot blame Him for the actions of a person in sin. God does not use sin for the greater good. Everything God does, it is for his Glory.
Our turning away only causes us to step out of his grace. Please brothers and sisters, stay steadfast! Trust in the lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
< Message edited by dyluck -- 9/28/2008 3:16:59 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/29/2008 11:29:24 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
quote:
dyluck
Johnfortean6
There is a vast difference between confession and willful sin (which is what we are talking about here). there is also a vast difference between confession and repentance (which is what we are talking about here). I want you to tell me at what point one is saved? when they ask Jesus into their heart or when they are changed?... I can't even count the amount of people that call themselves a Christian, asked Jesus In their heart believe they are saved and live the exact same lives as before. A good sign in this circumstance that you are changed would be the thought of suicide would no longer be a way out but you would detest it and probably think "why did I even think that? I thought that?! I entertained that thought?!" and if they did think it again, they would be so upset and mourn (blessed are they that mourn) about the sin of that thought. "I want to live a fruitful life for God!". (maybe even wanting to help people in that situation).
Hi dyluck,
Well, the Bible says in Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
So repentance is first, and then regeneration follows. Now there are some people who confess to be Christians, but they never really believed that Jesus could or would save them from their sins, or maybe they didn't accept Him because they wanted to keep living the way they had been living. But their are also some Christians that realize they are sinners and are trusting God that Jesus will be a satisfactory payment for their sins, and they are clinging to Jesus as their hope into heaven, but they never grow that much spiritually. As a matter of fact, some of Paul's letters were written to Christians who were saved, but were not maturing spiritually.
I think this is an excellent point we need to understand. Paul wrote, to saved brothers and sisters, who were not maturing spiritually. He wrote to those who were even practiciing sexual immorality that was not even "named among the Gentiles." 1 Corinthians 5:1.
Paul wrote to correct their works, but addressed them and recognized them as saints. Why? Because Paul better than anyone of his time understood the Gospel of Grace, and that we were saved COMPLETELY and ENTIRELY apart from the law. And, though it is a shame, Christians very well may, having been saved, walk into sin again if they are foolish. And, he also wrote about suffering due to heathens, and false bretheren -- 2 Corinthians 11:26. Nevertheless, we are saved by grace, apart from works. Just because a person has walked into sin does not mean they are a false bretheren. I do not believe that *being Christian* and *being saved* is the same thing. I'm sure there are times that the greatest followers of Christ would admit to not being very Christian from time to time. Paul himself admitted to doing the things he wished not to, and not doing the things he wished to do.
Paul also corrected brothers and sisters for trying to justify their salvation with works, by perfecting in the flesh what began in the spirit. This is a greater sin, in my humble opinion, than the sin of sexual immorality... because though sexual immorality is sinful... justifying salvation by works of the law changes the Gospel completely. In fact, it makes it into no Gospel at all. Galatians 3:1-4
We are not saved by works, of any kind. We are also not condemned by bad works (or lack of good works) if we are a Christians. Christ has fullfilled the law completely. He is faithful to keep us, and it is the Father's will that He should lose none of ALL of them that He is given.
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 9/29/2008 11:46:37 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/29/2008 2:44:03 PM
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dyluck
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You know... I don't ever discredit your faith brother. but stop getting hung up on works.
No-one here says they are self-righteous nor professes a works salvation mantality. I believe works salvation is blasphemy.
Again, I will say it for the 100 millionth time. WE CAN FALL FROM GRACE # 1 and # 2 READ ROMANS 6... #3 read the entire book of 1 John, its short, I think you can handle it. Then finally read Hebrews 10:26-31 (this is talking about someone who is already "santified", not unbelievers)...
Please stop with works salvation garbage talk... It is offensive and rather dishearting in judgement to brothers of the same faith. Jesus says "if you love me, you will obey my commandments"... This is NOT WORKS SALVATION! IT IS A WAY OF LIFE TO LOVE AND LIVE LIKE CHRIST...
Get a grip and read the bible, this is what Jesus himself commands... We DO NOT GO ON SINNNING. This is what repentance is all about my brother. It is ongoing, along with your walk in faith and growth in Christ.
Many times Paul noted to the churches where their habitual sin was leading them, don't go telling me he was giving them a suttle warning and a ticket to sin. Grace is not a ticket to sin, it is not to be trampled underfoot and be insulted by abuse.
Don't you see this is why 90% of the non-christians look at and say "christianity is for the birds, they have a God and don't respect him. They have all this knowledge and don't practice 1 bit of it". They call us hippocrates and rightly so because nobody wants to practice what they preach. God clearly states his stance on those who do not obey... God calls them illigitimate children. People who think they are Christian their whole lives, practice lawlessness (sin), God spewes them from his mouth. This wasn't a joke or a parable, it is TRUE. Come on, please... i beg you to re-evaluate your position on Sin and it's affect on you and mostly God.
Lastly this statement here: "clinging to Jesus as their hope into heaven," Is horribly horribly disheartening. Do you not understand what God wants?? He doesn't want us having a desire to obey to get to heaven! He wants us to have a desire to BE WITH HIM! Ultimately to GLOIFY HIM! Heaven is just a reward and should be an afterthought compared to simply being with God.
Sorry for my upset, but I think it is justified in circumstances.
Brotherly love
Dyluck.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 9/29/2008 3:00:29 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
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Dyluck, you misunderstand I think. Falling from grace does not mean losing salvation... it means we are no longer attending to, following, agreeing with the Gospel of grace. If a person falls from grace that doesn't mean they have lost their salvation... it means they have turned from the grace of God by justifying salvation with works. We must always return to the doctrine of grace... to the Gospel of grace. If we are trying to opperate a salvation by works, then we are not under grace. Dare I say that you, dyluck, if you are saying that a person can lose their salvation... have fallen from grace.
Again, do not misunderstand me. I didn't just say you were unsaved. I said you have fallen from grace in the true meaning of what Paul is telling us. We are either saved by grace or we are not. If we can lose our salvation by works, then we must attain it by works.
Nobody is saying that those who love Christ won't keep His commandments--they will. The question is... will those who fail to love Christ as they should, go to hell, even if Christ has given them the promise of eternal life?
I may, at times, not love my mother or father rightly... nevertheless, I am still their son. But, if I love them, I will keep their commandments. It doesn't speak of salvation, it simply speaks of obedience, and love. Has nothing to do with losing or gaining salvation.
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