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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/1/2008 3:40:43 AM
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tracydolls
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I have been following this thread for quite a while and want to jump in with a question.
My stepmother Mary Ann committed suicide in May of 1989. She was featured in Time Magazine because it was so many suicides that week.
At her funeral, I remember the preacher saying there were 4 instances in the Bible of people commiting suicide.
So she was forgiven. That has always stuck with me.
Does anyone know of these 4 instances and what verses?
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Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/1/2008 10:25:07 AM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ldunning
It is obvious from the majority of responses that the precept "saved by grace" is foreign to them. Just one question for the nay sayers. When the Holy Spirit of the Lord gave you a new heart and gave you the faith to believe in Him,what part of His Sovereign Grace did you have a hand in?
Absolutly none. However, in keeping with him, we obey him. "foreign to them"? I am not going to get my back up on that one, but I challenge that people don't understand the vastness of his grace nor the nature of it. I can tell you 1 thing though. It is not to be trampled on, It is not a ticket to sin willfully (like commit suicide). If you think the awesome Grace of God (the reason you still exist today) is meant for God to condone your sin, then we will see when you stand before God almighty and tell him "but you said Grace Father!" and he will say to you "I do not know you, worker of iniquity". Do you not understand the difference of self-righteous works and obediance??? Both are drasticly different. Do you not obey your earthly father? how much more then should you obey your heavenly father?
We understand full well the saving Grace of God and the santifiying blood of Jesus. I'm just saying, the bible puts more "if's" to salvation then a simple 5 minute prayer and "hellelugia jesus" on sunday. Also, becides being a God of Love, he is also a God of Justice, wrath and Jealousy. Each one of his characteristics are perfect in every way. God does not change. How he handled sin in the past is the same how he handles it now. The difference is, Jesus... Jesus is why we can stand before God blameless. Jesus himself said if you love me, you will obey my commandments. Then it goes to say, if you love me my father's love is in you! Its a clear indication that we don't just ask Jesus in our heart, say we are Christian and live wicked lives.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/1/2008 12:57:27 PM
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jonfortean6
Posts: 998
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quote:
dyluck
Absolutly none. However, in keeping with him, we obey him. "foreign to them"? I am not going to get my back up on that one, but I challenge that people don't understand the vastness of his grace nor the nature of it. I can tell you 1 thing though. It is not to be trampled on, It is not a ticket to sin willfully (like commit suicide). If you think the awesome Grace of God (the reason you still exist today) is meant for God to condone your sin, then we will see when you stand before God almighty and tell him "but you said Grace Father!" and he will say to you "I do not know you, worker of iniquity". Do you not understand the difference of self-righteous works and obediance??? Both are drasticly different. Do you not obey your earthly father? how much more then should you obey your heavenly father?
We understand full well the saving Grace of God and the santifiying blood of Jesus. I'm just saying, the bible puts more "if's" to salvation then a simple 5 minute prayer and "hellelugia jesus" on sunday. Also, becides being a God of Love, he is also a God of Justice, wrath and Jealousy. Each one of his characteristics are perfect in every way. God does not change. How he handled sin in the past is the same how he handles it now. The difference is, Jesus... Jesus is why we can stand before God blameless. Jesus himself said if you love me, you will obey my commandments. Then it goes to say, if you love me my father's love is in you! Its a clear indication that we don't just ask Jesus in our heart, say we are Christian and live wicked lives.
dyluck, from reading your posts, I am finding that we agree in most areas. I totally understand what you mean about obedience to God. God is a righteous God, perfect in every way, and when we sin against Him, that is a huge thing. If one becomes a Christian, for him to think of salvation just as an insurance claim into heaven, he is absolutely positively wrong.
But something I see in my life that is clearer to me more every single day, is just how much God loves us. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes to think that He would want to save me. I was already the worst sinner in God's eyes, and He died for me. I can't put God in a box in terms of how much He loves. Yes, I am supposed to live for him. True, whoever doesn't accept his gift is condemned to hell. But I can't express how unworthy I was to be called God's child in the first place. If God considers me righteous because He sees that I am covered in the blood of His Son, what can I do to remove that? Jesus died for all of our sins. Period. We can all but break God's heart, which we do everytime we sin, and He will still love us. His love is unending. So yes, we shouldn't have the attitude that we can sin and get away with it, but If I was going to have the attitude that I can't sin in order to be with God in heaven, then I wouldn't make it.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/1/2008 1:24:52 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 294
Joined: 9/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
quote:
ORIGINAL: ldunning
It is obvious from the majority of responses that the precept "saved by grace" is foreign to them. Just one question for the nay sayers. When the Holy Spirit of the Lord gave you a new heart and gave you the faith to believe in Him,what part of His Sovereign Grace did you have a hand in?
Absolutly none. However, in keeping with him, we obey him. "foreign to them"? I am not going to get my back up on that one, but I challenge that people don't understand the vastness of his grace nor the nature of it. I can tell you 1 thing though. It is not to be trampled on, It is not a ticket to sin willfully (like commit suicide). If you think the awesome Grace of God (the reason you still exist today) is meant for God to condone your sin, then we will see when you stand before God almighty and tell him "but you said Grace Father!" and he will say to you "I do not know you, worker of iniquity". Do you not understand the difference of self-righteous works and obediance??? Both are drasticly different. Do you not obey your earthly father? how much more then should you obey your heavenly father?
We understand full well the saving Grace of God and the santifiying blood of Jesus. I'm just saying, the bible puts more "if's" to salvation then a simple 5 minute prayer and "hellelugia jesus" on sunday. Also, becides being a God of Love, he is also a God of Justice, wrath and Jealousy. Each one of his characteristics are perfect in every way. God does not change. How he handled sin in the past is the same how he handles it now. The difference is, Jesus... Jesus is why we can stand before God blameless. Jesus himself said if you love me, you will obey my commandments. Then it goes to say, if you love me my father's love is in you! Its a clear indication that we don't just ask Jesus in our heart, say we are Christian and live wicked lives.
quote:
huge thing. If one becomes a Christian, for him to think of salvation just as an insurance claim into heaven, he is absolutely positively wrong.
I would wonder... what sins are forgiven, and how many of those sins are we allowed? one a day... one a week... one a month? Two per day... two per week... two per month? For instance... if I cheat on my taxes, or I tell a half-truth (lie), or I lust after man/woman... will God forgive me for that? If yes... what if I lust 10 times a day, steal twice, and lie four times? What if I don't lie at all, but lust twice, and steal 10 times? You see where this is going... What if I murder someone? What if I murder myself? The point is, is that yes, we do foolishly walk into sin by our own free will... even if we are saved. Nobody falls into sin, they walk into it--this includes Christians. Aye, we should live holy lives, amen. Aye, we should not sin, amen. But, *if we shall sin* we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, Who is truly righteous. We are saved, by grace through faith; not of works, lest any man boast.
I believe you are addressing this issue as matter of false converts. It is easy to say "Well then they weren't saved." I disagree. I say, "God's grace covers all sins, and only He knows if they were His or not." The question that I believe to be posed here is *IF* a person *is saved*, is suicide forgiven.
The given that I believe is suggested by the question is that the person *is* saved. So, we aren't questioning their salvation. We might wonder, "Were they saved? Why would they commit suicide if they are saved," and it is what it is. However, given a person is saved and they have been given the gift of eternal life by Christ's finished work (through Him only are we saved) is suicide forgiven? The answer is 100% YES, 100% of the time. :)
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/1/2008 1:38:40 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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quote:
dyluck, from reading your posts, I am finding that we agree in most areas. I totally understand what you mean about obedience to God. God is a righteous God, perfect in every way, and when we sin against Him, that is a huge thing. If one becomes a Christian, for him to think of salvation just as an insurance claim into heaven, he is absolutely positively wrong.
quote:
But something I see in my life that is clearer to me more every single day, is just how much God loves us. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes to think that He would want to save me. I was already the worst sinner in God's eyes, and He died for me.
quote:
I can't put God in a box in terms of how much He loves.
Keep in mind this statment is "in terms how how much he loves me". Most people says "I can't put God in a box in terms of Grace." then they says "do you think God wants us to live in bondage" as they drink down their 6th beer... Jesus says "my commandements are NOT burdensom" this was not in reference to someone who thinks its an effort to not sin, but someone who is changed that Sin is now detestable to them.
You are right. Don't put God's love in a box! But God never Changes in his Dealing with sin. As I said in another thread, jesus says "if you love me you will follow my commandments" then it goes to say "if you love me and obey, my fathers love is in you".
quote:
Yes, I am supposed to live for him. True, whoever doesn't accept his gift is condemned to hell.
This is the kicker... Accpting the gift of grace and salvation isn't a 5 minute prayer and be good sundays.
I will repeat if you start from the begining of the NT and read straight through. You will find many if's attached to "reaching out and actually accepting salvation"... habitual / willfull sin is not one of them.
quote:
But I can't express how unworthy I was to be called God's child in the first place.
Isn't grace wonderful?! We all fall short of the Glory of God.
quote:
If God considers me righteous
Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Righteousness is not only part of the santification in christs blood, but no man is righteous... we are commanded to walk in righteousness through faith. Thats why self-righteousness is so dangerous, because works is not credited to Righteousness. But faith without action is dead, which means that we don't by our own action become righteous, but through faith in walking in righteousness...
quote:
I am covered in the blood of His Son, what can I do to remove that? Jesus died for all of our sins. Period.
This is for the salvation / osas discussion on another forum. I believe that you cannot lose your salvation when you are truly a supernaturally changed christian. That said... A right minded (chemically balanced christian having a tough life) I submit is not a true christian; therefore in danger of hell fire.
quote:
We can all but break God's heart, which we do everytime we sin, and He will still love us. His love is unending.
Yes it says in the bible God wants all to come to repentance.. It doesn't say everyone will come to repentance.
It only says every knee will bow in the end, but their judgement still awaits no.
quote:
So yes, we shouldn't have the attitude that we can sin and get away with it,
You shouldn't even have an attitude to sin at all... You should detest sin... Getting away with it shouldn't even be an option. When you sin, you will break over it.. You will morn and come to repentance. As you were saying when you came to him and realized your sin! This must be ongoing though. we must Keep in repentance (keep doing it, don't stop turning from habitual sin).
quote:
but If I was going to have the attitude that I can't sin in order to be with God in heaven, then I wouldn't make it
100% right! There is a big difference between "works" and "obediance". One is blashepmy against the work of Christ and the other is what was commanded by God if you love him. In 1 John, it says if you don't love him, (well you know the concequences) Willfull sin is not only trampling on the Grace of God as stated in Hebrews, but it is a direct act of disobedience, which is not an act of love. Unfortunatly Suicide is absolute, it is difficult to see the love someone has for God when they commit it and all in all it is so absolute that leads directly to phyical death. It so abuses the grace of God.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/1/2008 10:02:38 PM
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jonfortean6
Posts: 998
Joined: 9/16/2008
From: Pennsylvania
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quote:
dyluck
100% right! There is a big difference between "works" and "obediance". One is blashepmy against the work of Christ and the other is what was commanded by God if you love him. In 1 John, it says if you don't love him, (well you know the concequences) Willfull sin is not only trampling on the Grace of God as stated in Hebrews, but it is a direct act of disobedience, which is not an act of love. Unfortunatly Suicide is absolute, it is difficult to see the love someone has for God when they commit it and all in all it is so absolute that leads directly to phyical death. It so abuses the grace of God.
Yeah, the only thing I don't agree with you on is the fact that you say because suicide is disobedience to God that leads to physical death, it abuses the grace of God. But I think we have both presented our arguments in clear and coherent ways. Your points are certainly thought- provoking. I am glad that you are convinced in your heart of what you believe, and that you are seeking God with your beliefs, not just believing what you want to believe. And most importantly, we are still brothers in Christ. God bless, dyluck, and I am definitely looking forward to speaking with you more on this forum- if not on this thread, then on another.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/6/2008 3:18:55 AM
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Casper22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Casper please PM me I want to share something with you.
On general discussion
I just want to reidderate, I am saying this in context to people that know full well what they are doing, I am not talking about people with uncontrolable chemical imbalances and mental disorders. In the end God will judge though, I am saying don't take the chance.
We have to remember this life is about God's glory. It is not about us but about Him. We live for him. Unfortunatly this has been twisted in many churches into thinking "what can I get from God".
I am not discrediting the grace of God in my statements, but we must not trample his sacrifice underfoot nor willfully sin/abuse his Grace.
This should not be a discuragement Casper, it should be encouragement to live for Him!! Glorify him for his grace upon you and me! WE ARE STILL HERE WOOT!! There is an assurance of salvation and it is in the supernatural change that God does with you when you are truly born again, when you are dead to sin and alive in Christ. A New creature! Where the thought of the act of sin becomes detestable to you. Where after you sin, you are brought to brokeness and mourning over it. You immediatly come to repentance.
Yes love those who are gone, but there is nothing on this earth that you can do for them, they have made their choices and are in the hands of God right now. You are not responsible for their redemption. God has given YOU a chance, This is what it is about, his grace abounds in our life! Take it Casper :)
Unfortuately, these things happen, will happen and have happend. I can only say the truth from the word. If you read the end of 2 Corinthians, Paul says he wrote his letters because he didn't want to be harsh in person and have them be discouraged when he is harshly speaking encouragement. Love is not always easy, nor is it butterflies and rainbows. God's truth has eternal concequences and we are not to take it lightly.
Please brother, understand this is not an attack on you, or anyone else who has gone through pain because of another's choice. This topic is "is suicide forgiven" we must all here expect both sides of the spectrium. I'm sure you understand that I don't want to beat around the bush with this subject because I do not want to see any more brothers and sisters take this way out!!!! It is still absolute. Please do not read these posts if you feel are not strong enough to see the side you may dissagree with. I do not want to cause a brother to stumble by any means. Please learn from the word and use your experience to help others in this situation! that is what God calls us to do. You my friend are a victim of suicide and what better chance to glorify God by helping others. Just like those who have conqured drugs and are now helping others. You my friend have overcome something very drastic! I encourage you, draw your strength from God, he will give it!
Lastly "a sin that leads to death" has been taken both ways, but I simply believe old-school physical death. Sin that causes you to die. I believe that God does forgive you for sin and if you sin when you die, there is forgiveness for that; however, if your sin is utterly willfull and leads to death... God will judge anyway... (I believe there is grace for those who's minds are disabled and God knows their hearts, and that really what it will come to in their circumstance. I think he only knows the degree in which their disibility left them in/out of control).
If you love him, use your life to Glorify him, follow him, please him. Stay away from sinful nature. We are aliens in this world! If you feel what you do does not please God, stop and turn the other way!!! If you notice and are broken by your sin! This is a sign of your assurance
Salvation is a Gift and it must be taken. Being Christian is not easy and if someone said to you "its as easy as a 5 minute prayer" you were lied to. The race is not finished until we die.
1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Acts 20:24
However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Paul was taking about fighting the good fight.. your "race" isn't finished until you die.
2 Timothy 4:6-8 "6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."
Humbley and with brotherly love
Im sorry Dyluck I reacted with emotion and not with a clear head. Its to close to home to me to fresh and my feelings are whats reacting not my mind. I understand completely that there are a variety of points of views and beliefs on this topic. I thought I could handle it obviously I could not. But this discussion needs to continue. Do not let this go on the back burner if one person can be persuaded not to kill themselves then this topic is serving a purpose.
I PM'ed you Dyluck
take care
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/6/2008 11:20:00 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 294
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Yes, it is forgiven. But that is purely on the basis that suicide is a sin. Of course if it wasn't a sin, then it wouldn't be forgiven... but because it is, it is :)
Jesus paid the price, period. We can get into discussions about whether a person who did that was saved or not, but it really isn't answering the question. If a person is in Christ, then yes. If a person is not in Christ, then no. Simple as that.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/6/2008 2:48:17 PM
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dyluck
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d4nnyb0y02
Yes it is a sin... but understand you say too absolute that all sin is forgven yet there is an outright unforgivable sin. :-P
We cannot acertain judgement on here by saying yes or no directly I have learned.
If the person is in their right mind and killed themselves because life wasn't treating them as fairly as they though it should have, I would lean more toward no - Christian or not.
If the person was not in their right mind (and only God has the omniciant view of their situation) will be able to make the judgement.
The thing is, come judgement day, it won't matter either way... we will not argue with God on that day, most likely we will be prostrate before him and all that will matter at that point is your closness to God.
It is better for us as believers to not encourage others to lean toward suicide that may be on tetering edges by saying "ahh yah, no problem... if you commit self murder, God's grace will save you anyway" Mean while, they may take the easy way out and have a good chance of not making it to their Father's arms. That is what saying what you say becomes dangerous. It is better to leave it in God's hands and say "don't take the chance, the concequence is too great to gamble".
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/6/2008 3:06:50 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 294
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Sin transgresses the law. Paul said that he would not have known sin had he not known the law.
The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit that you speak of is just that, blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. You can't look up the 10 commandments and say specifically "ah, there it is" as you can with murder, stealing, or lying. I don't consider blaspheme of the Holy Spirit a sin as all other sins, and Jesus never calls it a sin. The blapheme of the Holy Spirit is in a category and a league of it's own. I'm not saying it isn't wrong, obviously, or a mistake to do so... but it doesn't transgress the law, and it isn't the same as the sins Jesus died for... because He died for ALL SINS, period.
Regardless however, lets just call it a sin to not confuse anyone. The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit that Jesus spoke of is certainly not suicide.
I'll say it again. If you are in Christ, it (suicide) is forgiven. If you are not in Christ, it (suicide) is not forgiven, period.
God's Word and Christ's sacrifice is no gamble brother, and neither is it a gamble to teach it to those who are and are not perishing. It is the same either way. It's better for us Christians to teach the grace and truth of Christ regardless of the direction we think it will sway people. Just because I *want* someone to abstain from sin, does that mean I turn the Gospel of grace into a Gospel of works so that I might keep them on a "righteous path"? God forbid! It's not dangerous to teach the Gospel of Grace, salvation apart from works--it is the truth of God, and it is dangerous to think we need to teach anything else. :)
The Good News of grace apart from works is why Jesus lived a sinless life and died on a cross. The risk that people might sin knowing that they are forgiven is obviously a risk Jesus was willing to take. Don't change the Gospel because you want to see someone walk rightly. If you want to see someone walk rightly, teach the Gospel of grace, it is the truth of God.
quote:
The thing is, come judgement day, it won't matter either way... we will not argue with God on that day, most likely we will be prostrate before him and all that will matter at that point is your closness to God.
Amen
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 10/6/2008 3:51:57 PM >
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 10/6/2008 4:12:19 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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quote:
The Good News of grace apart from works is why Jesus lived a sinless life and died on a cross. The risk that people might sin knowing that they are forgiven is obviously a risk Jesus was willing to take. Don't change the Gospel because you want to see someone walk rightly. If you want to see someone walk rightly, teach the Gospel of grace, it is the truth of God.
There is a conflict here.. I don't change the gospel to suit my needs of walking in faith my friend... The NT screams Grace AND Obedience. You seriously confuse Grace with forgiveness. Althought forgiveness comes from Grace. Keep in mind God could NOT forgive you if it wasn't for the blood of Jesus Christ... Grace is not a ticket to sin, but a reasurance that if you do sin that you can be assured you aren't going to hell that Jesus has already died for your sin... Now.. . I am not going into huge biblical theology on Grace.
so here we have Paul who talks about law and its condemnation... but look what he says later... Galatians 5:13-26 " 13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."
So you see what this is saying... We aren't about doing a set of Jewish rules that were necissary once and that every sin is accounted for... It is saying by your very spiritual nature you will not live sinfully... Do you see what verse 22 says??? if you have the fruit of the spirit, there is no need for the law becasue you will automaticly in your spirit and in your heart be obedient to it because that is what you are, not what the law says you have to be... Thats why in the following versus of Galatians It talks about being made new creature again.... (reidderation from Romans 6). So Grace is abundant!!!! We all still carry flesh... but we have a different spirit! A new creature that does not entertain sinful nature.
Look what this verse says here: "19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. " This was told to the church of Galations... who were apparently very legalistic and needed to hear grace.. Paul makes known still what sinful nature is.. this is not legalisim, but describing what a christian is not because his spirit is new and you live by your spirit.
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