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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/9/2008 5:36:28 PM
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Cephyr13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TJStarfire
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Still, no one takes my challenge to prove that you can lose your salvation. That's the central issue here. For this topic to even be valid, one would have to prove you could lose your salvation first. Once you prove that, then you can ask if suicide is forgiven. But no one has prove biblically yet that a person can lose their salvation. Please, someone, prove that you can lose salvation first. Once you can do that (which you cannot biblically), then you can debate whether suicide is forgiven or not. And, by the way, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Not suicide. This thread really needs to address the central issue first before it continues aimlessly...
Will you accept the word of Jesus?
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Not every claim to salvation is true.
I fully accept and believe what you just said. That has nothing to do with what I'm expressing here, though. The discussion is: Can a saved person lose their salvation BY committing suicide.
Therefore, we must first examine, CAN a saved person even lose their salvation at all? If they cannot, then we have the answer to our debate here. But, if we can lose salvation (which I do not believe to be true at all), then we have a discussion here that could go on for a while. I think you can prove that no one can lose salvation, and therefore, I think that ends this debate. That's why I'm so intent on getting the conversation to: Can a REAL born again Christian (not a fake Christian who's not really saved) lose their salvation?
That is the question that MUST be addressed first, or the conversation has no purpose. You must always prove/figure out the underlying principles before you discuss the things which concern those underlying principles. So, I agree that there are lots of Christians who simply think they're saved, but really aren't, and those are the ones that will cry Lord, Lord and Jesus will say He never knew them. But I am speaking of the true born again Christians, not the fakes. Assuming one is a true born again Christian, and they commit suicide, will they lose their salvation? I don't believe anything can cause you to lose your salvation, so I would of course answer "no." But I have to prove that first. That's why I'm trying to get someone to attempt to prove loss of salvation. When they attempt to do so, I want to show that the verses to which they are referring are not understood the way they're thinking they should be understood, and sometimes they mean quite the opposite. I hope I am not being misunderstood in my goal here.
However, it appears an admin cut off the possibility of us even discussing once saved always saved, and therefore, this conversation could go anywhere, and will become fruitless unless the foundation is first established. Maybe I should have just assumed the founder of this thread assumed you could lose your salvation, but that being the case, I couldn't have even started discussing anything in this thread, because it goes back to OSAS in order to answer this thread's topic of discussion. I'll stop trying to address OSAS here at the admin's request, but simply know that the conversation is hindered because of this, because if OSAS is shown to be true conclusively, which I believe I've shown, then this discussion ends very quickly with a "no, you don't go to hell if you're saved."
< Message edited by Cephyr13 -- 5/9/2008 5:46:16 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/9/2008 5:54:08 PM
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Cephyr13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
You seem to be believing that the chemical imbalance in the brain is the cause of the suicide. But that would mean that you're saying that a person does not have free will IF they have an imbalance of chemicals in their brain and are not choosing for themselves, but rather something else is controlling them and making them commit suicide, and that something else is chemical imbalance.
Have you ever had a temperature at or above 105 degrees F or had a strong reaction to a medicine that made you so loopy that you couldn't think straight and reality was distorted?
Well, I have. And after a certain point, I was no longer making rational decisions, some parts I don't even remember.
Neither of those situations was of my choosing. It is little different than the results of someone suffering from clinical depression.
Fortunately, I didn't harm myself or anyone else. But if I had, your trouble with what a chemical imbalance means might have led you to assume I was always lost or died possessed by demons.
I consider such assessments ludicrous at best.
Let's assume that one could lose their salvation just for the sake of argument (since we cannot discuss OSAS anymore). In the New Testament, we're told that where there is no law, there is no transgression. In other words, if you don't know any better, sin isn't counted against you. If you are not in your right mind because of an accidental medicine problem and you kill yourself, sure, God understands mistakes and accidents. He's merciful.
But to say that a chemical imbalance is an accident or mistake and has nothing to do with the person that has the chemical imbalance is to assume you know the underlying cause, and that it's physical and not spiritual in nature.
Because we have books like A More Excellent Way which point out the doctrines of the Old and New Testament where God and Jesus both express that sins cause sickness and disease, we can take a cue from that and figure out what the underlying cause of many mental and physical illnesses could be: sin. I say "could be," because some things I'm sure have a strictly physical nature to them and have nothing to do with the spiritual world. But, until there is proof of that, we cannot know what the true cause of each sickness is. Because I don't know what all is spiritually caused by sin and what is physically caused by environmental factors, I can't say one way or the other on this.
In the book A More Excellent Way, the author has spent 20 some odd years figuring out which sins cause which diseases, and then has asked the people to simply repent of the sins that caused the disease, and the disease goes away instantly or extremely quickly (the body sometimes takes a short time to flush out things like tumors, etc.).
My answer would be this: If the person had a sin in their life that caused a physical problem in the body of chemical imbalance and they didn't fix that sin, then they are responsible for that sin and for the chemical imbalance, whether they understood it or not. Therefore, that is their fault, and if all sin must be repented of and asked forgiveness for, the person doesn't even know which sin is causing their problem and they choose to kill themselves and they cannot be saved (assuming you can lose your salvation).
If the chemical imbalance has nothing to do with a sin, meaning you're not responsible for your condition due to sin, then it's environmental at its cause, and that's not our fault. Why would God condemn someone against their free will when they did nothing to cause their condition? If it's not their fault, it's not their fault. To argue it from the chemical imbalance point of view, in my opinion, is fruitless, because at this moment, you and I don't know if the chemical imbalance is caused by sin or by the physical environment, or either?
What you're posing is this question: Will God condemn someone for doing something they do not know is wrong because their mental perception and capacity and free will has been altered. And the answer is as I just gave: If they're the cause of the condition, then they are responsible. If they are not the cause of the condition, they are not responsible. Is that a satisfactory answer? It's just my 2 cents... I don't claim to be correct, but that seems most logical to me, in my opinion anyway.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/9/2008 5:57:04 PM
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Cephyr13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
Cephyr13
I pretty much agree with what you are saying...which is why I state in many of my posts that too many Christians just can't accept that God is bigger then their problems, and fully capable of healing them from those problems.
"Oh...he suffers from this, and she has that...etc, etc, etc."
I've said it a hundred times. "God created the entire Universe from nothing. He can help you get through your LITTLE problem too."
Problem is, that people want to be in control of their own lives. They'd rather get help from their doctor, instead of trusting God to help them deal with it.
They don't understand what scripture means when it talks about full submission to God. If they did, they wouldn't be blaming their circumstances for everything that goes wrong in their lives. This is a fallen world...CURSED. We are ALL dealt bad cards in our hands. Just because someone is bi-polar doesn't make them different compared someone who is has a heart condition.
Pray to the Holy Spirit to deliver you through your trials and tribulations. NOTHING can seperate us from God and his love, but without true submission, nothing can help you.
Anyways, Cephyr...We have to be sensitive on this subject. I hear you, but the majority of Christians these days aren't even listening to what you're saying.
As a Christian, living daily in the Joy of the Lord and looking forward to his promise of Eternal Life. How can we be cronically depressed to the point suicide? Perhaps some are impatient..70+ years of some discomfort is too much for them. I don't know, but either we believe God's promises or we don't.....and if we DO...then we have nothing to worry about.
What I do know is that one day I'm going to live forever with God....so I'm not going to do something in complete disobedience like suicide. Premeditated murder...even to one's self is a complete disregard for God's Commandments.
Thankfully, even that can be forgiven.
I agree with what you just said. That's a good way to put it as well.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/10/2008 8:55:27 PM
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Luvinme
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It is great that Christians really want to see people saved and I think it is great that people can be supportive about this touchy subject. I feel empathy for those who have lost love ones to suicide as it could be even harder to deal with than accidental death since it leaves a gapping hole in understanding why and where???
There is no solid answer to say if suicide is right or wrong, but I just cannot believe that it is right since if we are truly a believer than we must believe and want to live for God. We don't give into our skin, our bodies. It means sacrifice and a lot of hard work. It means always holding on to what is true, what is God. What about that scripture that says it is not easy to know God since the road is narrow and not many find it or choose it since it is simply just too hard for them to deal with. I also don't believe that it is just a matter of faith that saves us, that if we are truly believers we will be fruitful too.
My brother-in-law committed suicide on my nephew’s birthday to make it memorable. He just became a Christian and my sister asks "is he in heaven?" I am not judge, but based on his mental state at the time he did this - I have to question, was he with God? And if he was why would he want to die?
If I was not here for God, I'll tell you I would be dead. I could tell you a long, story of lots of abuse and trials, and mistakes and hurts that goes on and on into my childhood. I struggle every other day to try to focus that I am here for a reason and I have to just keep on. I find life very hard. The easy way out always calls my name. I have mental illness probably since I only knew a distorted kind of love for many years. I still struggle with dysfunction, but I hold on to what is true, I keep on, and I get stronger as I grow and learn.
If suicide was an out - don't you think I would have taken it by now. To choose heaven over a world that has let me down over and over. I don't think it works that way though. I have to keep on through social phobia and bi-polar. I have to want help, seek it or endure it! It is just a fact of life for me. Just like it isn’t nice that anyone has any problems, but we all do.
This would pose another question then: Do you feel they should allow suicide in hospitals say if someone is suffering and just wants to die instead of prolonging the suffering. It is a tough moral question. I work in a hospital and we string people along with all our great technology for months even years where they are confined to a bed waiting to die perhaps just kept alive with by feeding tube. The question is coming and us Christians need to know where we stand. We really don’t want to damn people to hell hmmmm..
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/10/2008 10:09:57 PM
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turtleman
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Sanity presupposes that a rational person will always act in their's or the people they care about best interests. Suicide is not in anyones best interest threrfore it is not the act of a rational person. If the person who committed suicide asked God to forgive them before they died I believe he is faithful and just to forgive. As to the family of a suicide all you can do is be their and comfort them in any way you can. Do not meet them with silence nor condemn thier loved one. They need the love of God an his children. Afterall we are to be known by our love one to another
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/12/2008 2:53:34 PM
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CCCdnt
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I think it is always best when asking the question about what happens to a professing Christian that commits suicide to state within which belief you want the question answered - from an eternal security belief or from a conditional security belief. As I stated in an earlier post, the answer to this question will depend on which belief from which one answers as there are professing Christians on both sides of the issue that believe that the Bible supports their position. This is why this question can lead to a debate on OSAS versus CS (which is why in my earlier post I stated both viewpoints and that I was not trying to start a debate).
< Message edited by CCCdnt -- 5/13/2008 9:24:28 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/12/2008 9:57:18 PM
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Robert_G
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I think it is always best when asking the question about what happens to a professing Christian that commits suicide to state within which belief you want the question answered - from an eternal security belief or from a conditional security belief. As I stated in an earlier post, the answer to this question will depend on which belief from which one answers as their are professing Christians on both sides of the issue that believe that the Bible supports their position. This is why this question can lead to a debate on OSAS versus CS (which is why in my earlier post I stated both viewpoints and that I was not trying to start a debate).
Conditional Security is only possible if the Gospel is a 'Gospel of Works'.
The True Gospel....the 'Gospel of Grace through Faith' can only lead to OSAS.
In the case of 'Conditional Security', which is a Gospel of Works, one 'could' say that committing a commandment breaking sin (such as premeditated murder of self), would be a 'work' that would cause that person to lose their salvation.
All in all, we can see why any doctrine that suggests losing your salvation is possible, is simply NOT biblical.
As for suicide from the OSAS point of view.....I fully believe someone who has a genuine relationship with Jesus simply could not go through with any form of premeditated murder, even to one self.
I suppose there are extreme circumstances, but it certaintly would be the exception and not the rule. It is beyond me to understand how a Christian could murder in premeditated cold blood, but again....I suppose there are exceptions..
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 9:29:07 AM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I think it is always best when asking the question about what happens to a professing Christian that commits suicide to state within which belief you want the question answered - from an eternal security belief or from a conditional security belief. As I stated in an earlier post, the answer to this question will depend on which belief from which one answers as their are professing Christians on both sides of the issue that believe that the Bible supports their position. This is why this question can lead to a debate on OSAS versus CS (which is why in my earlier post I stated both viewpoints and that I was not trying to start a debate).
Conditional Security is only possible if the Gospel is a 'Gospel of Works'.
The True Gospel....the 'Gospel of Grace through Faith' can only lead to OSAS.
In the case of 'Conditional Security', which is a Gospel of Works, one 'could' say that committing a commandment breaking sin (such as premeditated murder of self), would be a 'work' that would cause that person to lose their salvation.
All in all, we can see why any doctrine that suggests losing your salvation is possible, is simply NOT biblical.
Case in point...as you have debated the two positions here. As I said earlier, I was not trying to start a debate. Since there is a one-stop thread for this, a debate in this thread would undoubtedly be stopped by the moderators. I see little point in debating the positions anyway. I did once before in the one-stop thread. Each side has their Biblical reasons why they believe as they do, and I highly doubt that I would see an argument presented that I have not already seen. I wanted to comment on this thread, however, because in the case of suicide, it does basically come down to what one believes about salvation - eternal versus conditional - and I do not see a way to address it without addressing those issues as well...which is why I made the comment that I think it best to state from which position you are answering.
< Message edited by CCCdnt -- 5/13/2008 12:46:18 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 9:50:08 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I think it is always best when asking the question about what happens to a professing Christian that commits suicide to state within which belief you want the question answered - from an eternal security belief or from a conditional security belief. As I stated in an earlier post, the answer to this question will depend on which belief from which one answers as there are professing Christians on both sides of the issue that believe that the Bible supports their position. This is why this question can lead to a debate on OSAS versus CS (which is why in my earlier post I stated both viewpoints and that I was not trying to start a debate).
As I stated in an earlier post in response to this obsession that suicide being a sin based on one's belief system:
I completely disagree that either eternal or conditional security is at issue on this topic.
I once believed that eternal life depended on, was conditional on MY works up until my last breath. Since then, reading the Bible apart from a denominational doctrine, I've change my position and now believe that Grace saves and Grace keeps.
But my view on whether suicide keeps one from heaven has remained the same across those two positions.
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 12:06:20 PM
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cchris
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Jesus can save whoever he wants. I believe he died on the cross for that very reason. It's not for us to decide who is and who isn't going to heaven, only to pray sincerely for their deliverance. I believe most people will be saved, whether they seem worthy to us or not.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 12:33:32 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
This assumes that suicide only results from "chemical imbalances, mental illness or disease".
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 12:36:22 PM
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cchris
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Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself. But like I pointed out, Jesus can save who he wants, whether you agree with him or not.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 12:38:23 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
This assumes that suicide only results from "chemical imbalances, mental illness or disease".
So, you really assume that a completely rational person decides one day to commit suicide like, say, you'd decide to drink a Diet Moutain Dew?
Really?
Completely rational?
Amazing.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 12:38:33 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
Jesus can save whoever he wants. I believe he died on the cross for that very reason. It's not for us to decide who is and who isn't going to heaven, only to pray sincerely for their deliverance.
Jesus told us in the Bible what is required for one to be saved.
quote:
I believe most people will be saved...
The Bible seems to say otherwise.
Matthew 7:13-14
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 12:40:42 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
This assumes that suicide only results from "chemical imbalances, mental illness or disease".
So, you really assume that a completely rational person decides one day to commit suicide like, say, you'd decide to drink a Diet Moutain Dew?
Really?
Completely rational?
Amazing.
I would not say that irrational decisions are always proof positive of a "chemical imbalance, etc."
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 1:13:53 PM
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cchris
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Romans 11
quote:
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
34" For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counselor?"
1 Corinthians: quote:
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I believe in a God of mercy, I don't believe in a vindictive God. There will be many who don't go, but I believe there will be many more who do. We are talking about billions upon billions of people, most of them who died or will die young and poor. I believe God created this world for Heaven and not for hell... But I suppose there will always be difference in opinion. God is ultimately free to do anything he desires. And as Jesus said, the two most important laws are to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. I am set firm against you in that Jesus will save who he wants whether it is justified by you or not.
< Message edited by cchris -- 5/13/2008 8:26:06 PM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 3:00:03 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I would not say that irrational decisions are always proof positive of a "chemical imbalance, etc."
As irrational as it might seem, I'm suddenly reminded of a something my grandmother once told me
Blessed is the person with nothing to say and cannot be persuaded to say it.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 10:49:46 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
Regardless, a person in a healthy state of mind won't kill himself.
And you can prove this how exactly?
quote:
But like I pointed out, Jesus can save who he wants, whether you agree with him or not.
I believe what Jesus said in the Bible about salvation and what is required to be saved.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 11:02:20 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 187
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
You have it backwards, and again makes the point why Eternal Security is an important aspect of this thread.
Salvation cannot be nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness. The real question is whether the person who premeditated their own murder was ever a Christian in the FIRST PLACE???
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 11:06:35 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
Romans 11
quote:
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
34" For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been His counselor?"
1 Corinthians: quote:
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I believe in a God of mercy, I don't believe in a vindictive God. There will be many who don't go, but I believe there will be many more who do. We are talking about billions upon billions of people, most of them who died or will die young and poor. I believe God created this world for Heaven and not for hell... But I suppose there will always be difference in opinion. God is ultimately free to do anything he desires. And as Jesus said, the two most important laws are to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. I am set firm against you in that Jesus will save who he wants whether it is justified by you or not.
First of all, I believe what I believe about salvation not because I tried to justify the belief but because of what God's Word says.
I believe that God is a God of love, mercy...and holiness/judgement. I do not believe this based on anything but what His Word says. Please do not misunderstand. I would never say dogmatically that there will be more people in the lake of fire than there will be that are saved. I just said that the Bible seems to indicate that few find the way to life. To me, that is saying that the majority do not find the way (otherwise, why use the word "few"?). It would be wonderful and great if the majority of people will be with Jesus.
quote:
God is ultimately free to do anything he desires.
This is not exactly true. The Bible indicates some things that God cannot do. For example, God cannot sin.
This discussion is getting off-topic. I assume this would be better discussed in the God folder.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/13/2008 11:08:30 PM
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CCCdnt
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