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Prophets??? - 3/10/2008 7:34:05 PM
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AllForIsrael
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Do any churches or denominations still use them?
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/11/2008 8:56:49 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AllForIsrael
Do any churches or denominations still use them?
They shouldn't. Now, while the "gift" of prophecy may still exist, the office of Prophet along with the office of Apostle ceased in the first century, when the canon of Scripture was closed.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/12/2008 5:44:09 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Do any churches or denominations still use them? I would say that it depends on what you mean by "use". Are there congregations that still listen to people considered to be Prophets? Yes. Are there individuals that still listen to these kind of people? Yes. That is why groups like the Elijah List exist. I would venture a guess that most churches that listen to prophetic people are going to be in Pentecostal denominations or the "Non-denominational" denomination. Most of the more traditional denominations are not going to because of the teachings of cessationism or the doctrine held by people like soxfan. So really, you would need to define your terms more before getting the answer you are looking for.
Adam
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:19:22 AM
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cybrjewls
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Greetings Shalom! Please be aware the calling and the gift for prophecy is still alive and well. While no prophecy today is Scripture and Doctrine and must be discerned within the framework of what is written, the gifting of prophecy still exists. The honorable duties of overseer, teacher, scribe, and deacon etc., do not have to go along with the function of prophecy and are separate in their function and workings. Therefore, some who have the gifting of prophecy do not have to operate in leadership over a ministry. We see this in Scripture where Agabus is not an overseer, but instead operates in the gift of prophecy concerning the Apostle Paul and what would happen to Him in Rome. At the outpouring at Pentecost, The Holy Spirit was bestowed upon the Apostles so that they were clothed with power from on High. We see that this is prophesied in Joel that And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. This in inclusive for God Reigns Supreme over the people on earth. Therfore, the calling extends to male and female as is written.
In my understanding, a prophet or prophecy will be instrumental in the ordering of the rebuilding of the Temple of God as has been the case at times past.
quote:
ORIGINAL: AllForIsrael
Do any churches or denominations still use them?
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/17/2008 11:30:27 AM >
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:26:51 AM
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wintery
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Interesting this caution from Ignatius:
The Epistle of Ignatius to Hero, a Deacon of Antioch
Chapter II.—Cautions against false teachers.
Every one that teaches anything beyond what is commanded, though he be [deemed] worthy of credit, though he be in the habit of fasting, though he live in continence, though he work miracles, though he have the gift of prophecy, let him be in thy sight as a wolf in sheep’s clothing, labouring for the destruction of the sheep.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.xvi.ii.html
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:29:42 AM
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cybrjewls
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Greetings! Amen, for it is written: Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Interesting this caution from Ignatius:
The Epistle of Ignatius to Hero, a Deacon of Antioch
Chapter II.—Cautions against false teachers.
Every one that teaches anything beyond what is commanded, though he be [deemed] worthy of credit, though he be in the habit of fasting, though he live in continence, though he work miracles, though he have the gift of prophecy, let him be in thy sight as a wolf in sheep’s clothing, labouring for the destruction of the sheep.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.xvi.ii.html
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:36:08 AM
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earthless
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Something that bothers me...
I have yet to ever meet a true Prophet.
And I have been in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, in the capacity as a pastor, for over 20 years and every single individual I have ever met turns out to have said failed/false prophecies and or their doctrine on the core essentials of Christianity is really skewed.
But then again.. what do we do with those that claim the Prophets of today do not have to be 100% accurate. That they do not have to stand up to the standard God Himself gives in Scripture for what a true Prophet will meet.
Where did they get that belief from?
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:36:26 AM
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wintery
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That's one of the spurious epistles, btw.
It's just interesting to see the discussion from around the third century and that there were evidently some standards for determining if a giver of "prophecy" was to be regarded or not.
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:39:25 AM
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wintery
Posts: 897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Something that bothers me...
I have yet to ever meet a true Prophet.
And I have been in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, in the capacity as a pastor, for over 20 years and every single individual I have ever met turns out to have said failed/false prophecies and or their doctrine on the core essentials of Christianity is really skewed.
But then again.. what do we do with those that claim the Prophets of today do not have to be 100% accurate. That they do not have to stand up to the standard God Himself gives in Scripture for what a true Prophet will meet.
Where did they get that belief from?
I was thinking about this last night. They _have to have_ that teaching because already know that false prophecy has been, is, and will be coming forth.
Have you in twenty years as a pastor seen anyone hurt by false prophecy?
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:49:11 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Have you in twenty years as a pastor seen anyone hurt by false prophecy?
Yes, yes, and yes! The damage that this movement (the movement that falls under the umbrellas of this and other Elijah List type stuff) is beyond words.
I could write (and probably will) write a book that chronicles the actual deaths, divorces, suicides, family breakups, church breakups, rebellious children, theft of $$$, property, that this movement has caused.
I have an example from just this past weekend!
A couple from my wife's old church (which if you have read my posts in the past would know just what kind of HYPER Word of Faith/Latter Rain cult it is...) got news a few months ago that they were expecting a third child.
They have always wanted a boy, they have two girls, and when they announced that they were expecting their third... their local church, on that particular Sunday, had a "Prophet" from Puerto Rico there to minister.
He approached them and said something along the lines of, "I am the Lord and I am proclaiming today that ______ and ________ are expecting a baby boy... and this boy will become the Apostle over half of Latin America...."
They were all praising and thanking God for "this Word"...
When my wife and I got the news of this happening at that week's service.. we, knowing that guy is a false teacher and a false prophet, sarcastically said that the goof had some nerve because watch it be another girl...
Well... on Friday this couple went for an ultra-sound and yup..... they are having a third girl.
They are now saying that the doctors are wrong and "We rebuke that in the name of Jesus!!"
They are saying that "we have spoken in faith and God will give us a boy!"
They are saying, "We have RHEMA knowledge that a boy is on his way and that it will come to be because we have said so...."
Sigh.
This is the same guy that said all homosexuals would die by 2001 by fire. I guess that "prophesy" of his was inspired by Benny Hinn.
Who knows...
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 11:57:38 AM
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wintery
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earthless,
A long time ago I was the only one on the same pew with a man who was regarded as having a prophetic gift. During worship as the musicians strummed along waiting on the Lord, I felt a very strong urgency and excitement and I began to, I guess, fear, that I was going to suddenly prophecy. That's when the prophet a few feet away cut loose with his prophecy. Later he left the church and began following some teaching that God was through with the church format and began to have a few house meetings, resulting in a surprise visit from the church elders who demanded to know if he was stealing sheep, and then ordering church members to cease going to the guys house. I had gone to one "meeting" at his house. We sat around and talked and it was mild, very mild and non-threatening. I don't let dictators tell me whose house I can go to, so I departed from that church but I didn't go to the guy's house again either.
Was anybody at all there hearing from God? Did the man have a gift of prophecy? Did the "holy invasion force of elders" save the church from harm?
These are the kinds of things that happen when we lean on the arm of flesh and think we're being spiritual, imo.
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 12:15:57 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1480
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From: Connecticut
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Any time there is a discussion of whether the "offices" of Prophet or Apostle still exist today, no one EVER can provide even one example of a current person that is either a FOUNDATIONAL Prophet or Apostle.
I toss out the same challenge in this thread.
For anyone that believes that these offices are in operation today, please provide me with someone who fits the Scriptural definition that defines the OFFICE of Prophet or Apostle.
I'm not talking about someone with the gift of prophecy. I'm asking for someone that holds the Biblical office of Prophet
I'm also not talking about some with apostolic giftings (church planting, etc). I'm asking for someone that holds the Biblical office of Apostle.
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 3/17/2008 12:22:01 PM >
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 12:22:44 PM
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wintery
Posts: 897
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From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Any time there is a discussion of whether the "offices" of Prophet or Apostle still exist today, no one EVER can provide even one example of a current person that is either a FOUNDATIONAL Prophet or Apostle.
It's cause and effect! When someone thinks they're a prophet they prophesy! When they think they're an apostle they have a new direction for the church. Or maybe in some cases they get an idea that is so "big" they decide they must be a prophet or apostle.
The view that "God has been restoring the gift of prophecy/Prophets" led to the idea that "God" is now restoring apostles to the church. Just like some prophets are "more accurate" than others, some "apostles" are considered above others.
What's next? Kings?
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 1:35:12 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1480
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
The view that "God has been restoring the gift of prophecy/Prophets" led to the idea that "God" is now restoring apostles to the church. Just like some prophets are "more accurate" than others, some "apostles" are considered above others.
What's next? Kings?
Exactly.
Examples...Juanita Bynum claims to be a "Prophet". C Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, claim to be "Apostles".
If someone believes that they are truly Prophets or Apostles, or if they know of someone else who is, I want to know the Biblical support.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 2:05:47 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
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Greetings earthless! Please notice the admonition of the Prophet of God: Let God hurry, let him hasten his work so we may see it. For it is written: The kingdom of God is near. For knowledge puffs up, but Love edifies. For God is Love as it is written. For Love comes from God. And it is written that the least of these in the Kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist whom Christ said that there was no greater prophet born of women. For John's Testimony was regarding The Kingdom of God for baptism of repentance. For Though John never performed a miraculous sign. By the Spirit of God's Gracious Outpouring at Pentecost, we can be clothed with Power from On High as it is written to do Good Works that God produces through us for the fruit of the Spirit of God is Love, Joy, Peace, long suffering, gentleness, Goodness, Faith, meekness, and temperance. For it is written that if We possess these things in increasing amounts we are exempt from the law for it is fulfilled in bearing Good fruits that remain planted in the Good soil of Christ in the Garden of God. Therefore it is also written: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Yet the Apostle's admonishs that: so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. For it is written: because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For Jesus said: Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. For Jesus said: everyone who sins is a slave to sin. But if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. For if we make mistakes in our speech and decisions, and do not forgive our neighbor; Christ says that For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. For if We judge our neighbor purely by the law, how will we escape the law? Through Christ! Therefore, if we have grace and mercy for our neighbor in forgiveness. We will be forgiven. For it is written: Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. For Christ did not think it problematic to have mercy on Us! As it is written: Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Who are we to judge our neighbors faults; We are only condemning ourselves, then! There is discernment in Love and Wisdom in Faith.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Something that bothers me...
I have yet to ever meet a true Prophet.
And I have been in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, in the capacity as a pastor, for over 20 years and every single individual I have ever met turns out to have said failed/false prophecies and or their doctrine on the core essentials of Christianity is really skewed.
But then again.. what do we do with those that claim the Prophets of today do not have to be 100% accurate. That they do not have to stand up to the standard God Himself gives in Scripture for what a true Prophet will meet.
Where did they get that belief from?
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/17/2008 2:31:37 PM >
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 2:08:01 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4738
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Prophetica,
Maybe I am wrong - but in your reply to my post.. you didn't answer any of my questions.
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 2:31:23 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4738
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings! If you will not have your questions addressed by Scripture, then are you being accountable to God?
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Prophetica,
Maybe I am wrong - but in your reply to my post.. you didn't answer any of my questions.
Ah, I see we're back to 'Prophetica Speak!'.... *sigh*
I will try this with you one more time..
I have two simple questions:
1) Can you name a living single person today that has the Office of Prophet?
&
2) Where do people get the belief/the teaching that those they claim hold the Office of Prophet today do not have to be 100% accurate in their prohecies?
I read and reread your post five times - and nowhere in it did you answer the questions I have reposted above.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 2:50:24 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1395
Status: offline
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It is written that The Tesimony of Jesus is The Spirit of prophecy. It is written that For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God is Just and Merciful and forgives men their sins when they repent. Yet He fulfills all that He has said. That is why I do not Judge.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Prophetica,
Maybe I am wrong - but in your reply to my post.. you didn't answer any of my questions.
quote:
Ah, I see we're back to 'Prophetica Speak!'.... *sigh*
I will try this with you one more time..
I have two simple questions:
1) Can you name a living single person today that has the Office of Prophet?
&
2) Where do people get the belief/the teaching that those they claim hold the Office of Prophet today do not have to be 100% accurate in their prohecies?
I read and reread your post five times - and nowhere in it did you answer the questions I have reposted above.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/17/2008 3:21:51 PM >
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 2:54:47 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4738
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Prophetica,
Ok, so you cannot or will not answer my two questions, fine.
And you're saying that you will not judge anyone's teachings in light of Scripture, fine.
I hope someone can come in here and answer my two questions, I will keep waiting.
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