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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 3:18:35 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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Jesus talking about not "judge not lest....." has NOTHING to do with excusing failed/false prophecies - that is absurd.
"Judge not lest ye be judged", in context, speaks to the fact that you better have your own stuff together with regard to that particular sin, because any standard of judgment you might apply to others will likewise be applied to you by the Lord.
Christ preached love, yet He did not validate tolerance of sinful behavior. Love denotes not only compassion and understanding, but discipline and mercy (Proverbs 13:24). Our society tends to grab hold of the God depicted in "Jesus Loves Me" and want to sweep the God of Justice under the rug because frankly, He's no longer en vogue.
The context of that passage does not give a blank check to people who claim to hold the Office of Prophet to make utterances they claim is God speaking directly through their lips and then having said predictions not come to pass.
And he did not answer my first question - which is to actually, apart from all of our hot air, to name a living person that holds the Office of Prophet.
And the second question remains - where in Scripture can someone be excused for lying about God speaking directly through them?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 3:37:08 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1267
Joined: 2/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
And the second question remains - where in Scripture can someone be excused for lying about God speaking directly through them?
This how "Bizarro World" the ideas are about replying to critics of so-called ministers who claim to have a special angle on what God is saying. Our beloved brothers and sisters in Christ are willing to smash anyone speaking against their favorite "brand" of ministry and are convinced, without ever hearing any discussion, that anyone not in line with their favorite prophet are not hearing from God but are in fact opposing God, and evil in their remarks.
Now turn that around to earthless's point "lying about God speaking directly through them"...and they've never considered what a sin it is to prop these people up! What a sin to claim a "private interpretation"--2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
Common sense would tell anyone that God is not contradicting Himself in prophecy. So thousands of would-be prophets, prophesying every week are not _all_ right, and perhaps _none_ are right.
I read about a man, considered by some (and himself) to be a prophet. He dreads to close his eyes because of being overwhelmed by dreams and visions. For years he's been in this state. Is this how God operates?
Or is he somehow deceived?
Trips to heaven and angelic interaction are attention getters. Even if something that was said is later shown to be wrong, the faithful hang on to their favorite _source_ of revelation from God. I wonder how much of the defense of prophets is just a fear of letting go.
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 3:39:39 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings! It is written: God is the God of the living, not of the dead. At the mount of transfiguration prophets appeared with Christ and the Apostles. For to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord.
It is written: But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For, the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he that has the Office of Prophet calling. For the Kingdom belongs to such as the children as Jesus said: anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
If we judge others by every word they say, we will be held to that very standard ourselves on The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord. Therefore, we do not have a blank check to spend in this regard.
God, however, keeps His Word. Therefore, we can see in the law of Moses that God has proclaimed not only blessings; but also curses. Jesus said: Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, The Apostle admonishes us to judge nothing before the appointed time, for who knows the motives of someones heart like God?
What God says does not fail, so we are to be on our guard against all sorts of greed. For Christ said: about the seven worse unclean spirits that can enter into religiousness, and admonished the Apostles to be on their guard against yeast of the pharisees in neglecting the weightier matters of the prophetic law of Moses which are to Love God and have mercy on our neighbors.
The letter of the law does not save, The Spirit of The Law delivers from death, the fulfillment of the law is by The Spirit of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto Good works and fruits that will remain and last.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Jesus talking about not "judge not lest....." has NOTHING to do with excusing failed/false prophecies - that is absurd.
"Judge not lest ye be judged", in context, speaks to the fact that you better have your own stuff together with regard to that particular sin, because any standard of judgment you might apply to others will likewise be applied to you by the Lord.
Christ preached love, yet He did not validate tolerance of sinful behavior. Love denotes not only compassion and understanding, but discipline and mercy (Proverbs 13:24). Our society tends to grab hold of the God depicted in "Jesus Loves Me" and want to sweep the God of Justice under the rug because frankly, He's no longer en vogue.
The context of that passage does not give a blank check to people who claim to hold the Office of Prophet to make utterances they claim is God speaking directly through their lips and then having said predictions not come to pass.
And he did not answer my first question - which is to actually, apart from all of our hot air, to name a living person that holds the Office of Prophet.
And the second question remains - where in Scripture can someone be excused for lying about God speaking directly through them?
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 3:41:51 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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Wintery,
The other side of this coin is two fold and alarming...
We can rule out that God is indeed not speaking through people who utter false prophecies. So we are left with only two viable options:
1) The individual speaks out of their own mind and cunning, either purposely or because they are mentally ill.
& or
2) The individual is demon possessed and or the visions/dreams they are receiving are from demons, from the demonic realm, disguising themselves as angels of light.
_____________________________
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 3:45:12 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Therefore, The Apostle admonishes us to judge nothing before the appointed time,
Greetings! It is written:
The Apostle Paul instructed Timothy, that we are to zealously guard the purity of the message God has entrusted to us, and for good reason (1 Timothy 1:18-19; 6:20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5).
We read in such passages as Acts chapter 20, and 2 Peter chapter 2, that false teachers will arise, bringing with them destructive heresies, distorting the truth and destroying the faith of some.
Moreover, Prophetica, it is clear that these teachers will come not only from outside the church, but also from within the body of Christ as well.
It is therefore imperative that we test all things by Scripture (1 Thessalonian 5:21).
It was in this spirit that the Bereans examined the words of the Apostle Paul, for which they were reckoned as noble in character (Acts 17:11).
Indeed, not only can the Bible be used for preaching, teaching and encouragement, but it is equally valuable for correcting and rebuking (2 Timothy 4:2).
As a matter of fact, we as Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God, warning others of false teachings. (Acts 20:26-28; Ezekiel 33:7-0; 34:1-10)
This is not merely a suggestion, it is, in fact, a divine mandate.
Of course if heresies are coming from teachers within the church, we ought to try and approach them first with our concerns.
Should that fail to resolve the problem, we are told in Matthew 18 to expose their errors to the church; and if need be, divulge their names. (1 Timothy 1:20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 4:14-15; 3 John 9-10).
We would, therefore, do well to heed Scripture's explicit warning to be on guard for false teachings (Romans 16:17-18; 1 Timothy 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; Titus 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to brothers and sisters in Christ (2 Timothy 4:6). Obey God and His Word and test all things in light of Scripture - God bless on this high tiding of a day!
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 3:51:08 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings! Thank you for your counsel regarding false teaching and false prophecy. Heretical teachings are not to be tolerated at all because they bring about error and, potentially, destruction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Therefore, The Apostle admonishes us to judge nothing before the appointed time,
Greetings! It is written:
The Apostle Paul instructed Timothy, that we are to zealously guard the purity of the message God has entrusted to us, and for good reason (1 Timothy 1:18-19; 6:20; 2 Timothy 4:2-5).
We read in such passages as Acts chapter 20, and 2 Peter chapter 2, that false teachers will arise, bringing with them destructive heresies, distorting the truth and destroying the faith of some.
Moreover, Prophetica, it is clear that these teachers will come not only from outside the church, but also from within the body of Christ as well.
It is therefore imperative that we test all things by Scripture (1 Thessalonian 5:21).
It was in this spirit that the Bereans examined the words of the Apostle Paul, for which they were reckoned as noble in character (Acts 17:11).
Indeed, not only can the Bible be used for preaching, teaching and encouragement, but it is equally valuable for correcting and rebuking (2 Timothy 4:2).
As a matter of fact, we as Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God, warning others of false teachings. (Acts 20:26-28; Ezekiel 33:7-0; 34:1-10)
This is not merely a suggestion, it is, in fact, a divine mandate.
Of course if heresies are coming from teachers within the church, we ought to try and approach them first with our concerns.
Should that fail to resolve the problem, we are told in Matthew 18 to expose their errors to the church; and if need be, divulge their names. (1 Timothy 1:20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 4:14-15; 3 John 9-10).
We would, therefore, do well to heed Scripture's explicit warning to be on guard for false teachings (Romans 16:17-18; 1 Timothy 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; Titus 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to brothers and sisters in Christ (2 Timothy 4:6). Obey God and His Word and test all things in light of Scripture - God bless on this high tiding of a day!
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 3:57:12 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
Greetings! Thank you for your counsel regarding false teaching and false prophecy. Heretical teachings are not to be tolerated at all because they bring about error and, potentially, destruction.
Greetings! You are more than welcome. False Prophets are not to be tolerated as such because they bring about error, false hope, deception, and destruction. They also make a mockery of God, His Word, and Christianity.
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/17/2008 4:00:46 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1267
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Wintery,
The other side of this coin is two fold and alarming...
We can rule out that God is indeed not speaking through people who utter false prophecies. So we are left with only two viable options:
1) The individual speaks out of their own mind and cunning, either purposely or because they are mentally ill.
& or
2) The individual is demon possessed and or the visions/dreams they are receiving are from demons, from the demonic realm, disguising themselves as angels of light.
Or in various stages of the above. Certainly the mind can go a long way in producing prophetic-sounding words. A sensitive person may genuinely care about a distressed person and want to love and encourage them, but then it can get tainted when that part comes in about "getting something from God" and there a Nicolaitan difference between the believers is expressed, that is, one assumes a superior role instead of a role of meekness.
Then there are others who propose to speak to masses of people or the entire Christian church. I believe there are large egos that are creating situations for which they have not yet reaped the whirlwind, but they are sowing it.
Finally, in receiving from the demonic realm, what a snare and a trap that is, and how very hard it can be to extricate oneself from the hold a deception can have...but we can be delivered and freed through Jesus Christ.
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/18/2008 3:18:33 PM
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alfalfahay
Posts: 4
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This quote from the Didache may be interesting to some:
quote:
3. But concerning the apostles and prophets, according to the decree of the Gospel, thus do. 4. Let every apostle that comes to you be received as the Lord. 5. But he shall not remain except one day; but if there be need, also the next; but if he remain three days, he is a false prophet. 6. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges; but if he ask money, he is a false prophet. 7. And every prophet that speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. 8. But not every one that speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he hold the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. 9. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit eats not from it, except indeed he be a false prophet; 10. and every prophet who teaches the truth, if he do not what he teaches, is a false prophet. 11. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him; but if he says to you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
Apparently the prophets mentioned were itinerant, perhaps somewhat ascetic [?], perhaps were not big on predicting the future. Perhaps such prophets in early church history ought to be distinguished from itinerant evangelists?, but I don't feel qualified to try to outline such a distinction.
I suppose the modern day equivalent might be a visiting preacher? In the Catholic parishes it might be a visiting Dominican (Order of Preachers = OP) priest giving a Lenten Mission, in a Protestant church, I suppose the equivalent might be either a retreat leader or a visiting revival crusade leader?
As far as the Jews are concerned I think they consider the office of prophet (Navi) to have ended with the completion of the OT.
AH
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 2:00:48 AM
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groovymovieman
Posts: 164
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quote:
They shouldn't. Now, while the "gift" of prophecy may still exist, the office of Prophet along with the office of Apostle ceased in the first century, when the canon of Scripture was closed.
What? Where do people come up with this stuff? Sounds made up and unscriptural to me. I suppose pastors, evangelists and teachers ceased when the canon of scripture was closed as well? Or are we picking and choosing which functions we like and don't like?
_____________________________
To a pharisee, "Truth is more important than love."
To the spiritually healthy, "Love is the most important part of truth."
www.familyroommedia.com
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 3:09:12 AM
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groovymovieman
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I'm enjoying the conversation sorting this stuff out. I think first of all we use the term "offices" for the functions described in Ephesians (Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher.) which gives them more of a lofty and official sound. But I think scripture points to these roles more as functions than official positions. We have even greatly misapplied "pastor" today. I know some prophets. But they don't go around foretelling the future. In fact, they don't even say they're prophets. They wear no title. Rather, a passion to help their brothers and sisters hear God for themselves just flows from them. They have clarity in hearing His voice and they equip the saints by helping them grow in that area. You don't have to know they are prophets; all you know is after hanging with them for a while you find yourself hungering to hear God for yourself and really growing in your ability to recognize His voice and know what He is saying. (For yourself!)
Also, because of prophets’ clarity in hearing God's voice they often are not well received because they tend to see things very different than the status quo. They see which way God is going and will often confront things that are amiss. And because they have clarity hearing God's voice, they may hear Him say something about a future event. But those words will always bear witness with those who are listening to God. Just as Paul already knew he would be going to prison before Agabus told him. But prophets are just normal people like me and you. In fact, every one of us can hear God, be his mouth piece and discern which way the Spirit is moving and hear Him speak to us about the future because the Spirit of God resides in us too! We are living in the New Testament when God has poured out His Spirit on ALL flesh. Prophets just have a function helping us see that for ourselves and grow in it until we no longer need their help. (As with all of the functions mentioned in Ephesians.)
In fact, if I may be so bold, I'm sure some people browsing around these forums may function as prophets but just not know it because they have this high and lofty view of what that means. It's no different with apostle, evangelist, pastor and teacher. We have institutionalized these functions and made them into lofty titled positions so we miss the simplicity in which they function. I know people that function is each one of those areas, but you wouldn’t know them from Adam. Paul himself never once referred to himself as "Apostle Paul." But rather he just said that he was Paul, an apostle. It was just a function in his life. It is no different than saying, “I'm groovymovieman, a dad.” I'm not “Dad Groovymovieman.” See the difference? It’s just a natural function in my life. It’s not an official position.
_____________________________
To a pharisee, "Truth is more important than love."
To the spiritually healthy, "Love is the most important part of truth."
www.familyroommedia.com
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 12:57:11 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings groovymovieman! Thank you for your kind addressing of these issues. I look forward to hearing from one of those people that God has chosen to give the gift of prophecy to. For it is a function that is needed in the foundation of The Building up of The Body of Christ Jesus our Lord.
As far as foretelling the future goes, that is left for the other class of so-called would-be class of people who are of the magic persuasion. For it is written: those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." And, For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. And, Woe to them! They have rushed for profit into Balaam's error.
When God speaks, it is decreed to come to pass and He will bring it about. It is not mere prediction of events that will transpire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: groovymovieman
I'm enjoying the conversation sorting this stuff out. I think first of all we use the term "offices" for the functions described in Ephesians (Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher.) which gives them more of a lofty and official sound. But I think scripture points to these roles more as functions than official positions. We have even greatly misapplied "pastor" today. I know some prophets. But they don't go around foretelling the future. In fact, they don't even say they're prophets. They wear no title. Rather, a passion to help their brothers and sisters hear God for themselves just flows from them. They have clarity in hearing His voice and they equip the saints by helping them grow in that area. You don't have to know they are prophets; all you know is after hanging with them for a while you find yourself hungering to hear God for yourself and really growing in your ability to recognize His voice and know what He is saying. (For yourself!)
Also, because of prophets’ clarity in hearing God's voice they often are not well received because they tend to see things very different than the status quo. They see which way God is going and will often confront things that are amiss. And because they have clarity hearing God's voice, they may hear Him say something about a future event. But those words will always bear witness with those who are listening to God. Just as Paul already knew he would be going to prison before Agabus told him. But prophets are just normal people like me and you. In fact, every one of us can hear God, be his mouth piece and discern which way the Spirit is moving and hear Him speak to us about the future because the Spirit of God resides in us too! We are living in the New Testament when God has poured out His Spirit on ALL flesh. Prophets just have a function helping us see that for ourselves and grow in it until we no longer need their help. (As with all of the functions mentioned in Ephesians.)
In fact, if I may be so bold, I'm sure some people browsing around these forums may function as prophets but just not know it because they have this high and lofty view of what that means. It's no different with apostle, evangelist, pastor and teacher. We have institutionalized these functions and made them into lofty titled positions so we miss the simplicity in which they function. I know people that function is each one of those areas, but you wouldn’t know them from Adam. Paul himself never once referred to himself as "Apostle Paul." But rather he just said that he was Paul, an apostle. It was just a function in his life. It is no different than saying, “I'm groovymovieman, a dad.” I'm not “Dad Groovymovieman.” See the difference? It’s just a natural function in my life. It’s not an official position.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/20/2008 1:28:24 PM >
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 1:47:11 PM
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groovymovieman
Posts: 164
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
As far as foretelling the future goes, that is left for the other class of so-called would-be class of people who are of the magic persuasion. For it is written: those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." And, For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. And, Woe to them! They have rushed for profit into Balaam's error.
Yeah, I think a lot of people that wear the title of "Prophet" have fallen into Balaam's error. Either they aren't prophets at all or they were and backslid into making a name for themsleves and lot of money. They speak things that will put them in with the right people and give them center stage.
_____________________________
To a pharisee, "Truth is more important than love."
To the spiritually healthy, "Love is the most important part of truth."
www.familyroommedia.com
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 2:14:00 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1504
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From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
For it is a function that is needed in the foundation of The Building up of The Body of Christ Jesus our Lord.
The foundation has already been BUILT (Eph 2:20) with Christ as the chief cornerstone. That was the function of the original "Foundational" Apostles and Prophets.
How do you continue to build a foundation if the building is already being built on it?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 2:33:37 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Greetings! I was not speaking about the Foundation, itself, I apologize for not being clear about this. I meant that it continues to build up on that Foundation through the edification of The Church of Christ.
As you said, the building is not already built upon it, though, for Christ teaches: Everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. We must obey Christs teachings and put them into practice for it is written: Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. There are things that we need to be doing in The Lord Christ for He says: 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " For it is written: for the worker deserves his wages. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in [ Or through] Christ Jesus our Lord. And, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. The sons are exempt. And, It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light." In him was life, and that life was the light of men. For faith without works is dead. What a Grace we have been given to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
For it is a function that is needed in the foundation of The Building up of The Body of Christ Jesus our Lord.
The foundation has already been BUILT (Eph 2:20) with Christ as the chief cornerstone. That was the function of the original "Foundational" Apostles and Prophets.
How do you continue to build a foundation if the building is already being built on it?
< Message edited by prophetica -- 3/20/2008 7:15:23 PM >
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 3:35:40 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Goodness...
_____________________________
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 4:42:18 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 323
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Something that bothers me...
I have yet to ever meet a true Prophet.
And I have been in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, in the capacity as a pastor, for over 20 years and every single individual I have ever met turns out to have said failed/false prophecies and or their doctrine on the core essentials of Christianity is really skewed.
But then again.. what do we do with those that claim the Prophets of today do not have to be 100% accurate. That they do not have to stand up to the standard God Himself gives in Scripture for what a true Prophet will meet.
Where did they get that belief from?
Hello Earthless, this is just a quick question based upon this statement from you.
I hear where you are coming from on this and I would tend to agree that though I have not spent 20 years as you have, I have a hard time coming across people who have not had some form of failed prophecy, etc.
That said, would you believe that there are those who have been prophets, healers, etc. IN THIS AGE (not today, mind you, but say within the last 1500 years or so)-examples that come to my mind might be some such as say Smith Wigglesworth-though we only have the accounts of what he did, assuming they are true, did he not exhibit an anointing that was divine in origin-healing the sick, raising the dead, etc.? I guess I'm just trying to understand if the prevaling consensus is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the revelatory and prophetic to happen in this age, thanks!
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RE: Prophets??? - 3/20/2008 4:53:20 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
Hello Earthless, this is just a quick question based upon this statement from you.
I hear where you are coming from on this and I would tend to agree that though I have not spent 20 years as you have, I have a hard time coming across people who have not had some form of failed prophecy, etc.
That said, would you believe that there are those who have been prophets, healers, etc. IN THIS AGE (not today, mind you, but say within the last 1500 years or so)-examples that come to my mind might be some such as say Smith Wigglesworth-though we only have the accounts of what he did, assuming they are true, did he not exhibit an anointing that was divine in origin-healing the sick, raising the dead, etc.? I guess I'm just trying to understand if the prevaling consensus is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the revelatory and prophetic t | | |
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