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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/13/2008 6:15:49 PM
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Starbucks880
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Well I don't think there is anything wrong per se with scriptures being used for Christian counseling, but one must be careful in that setting, since not all problems can be fixed by scripture. Scripture can provide a good foundation, but must be used appropriately. Also, many times when you see Christian counselors listed, they are not not liscensed mental health professionals, but rather people who have gone through a training program. Those types of counselors are not qualified to treat deeper problems and should have criteria in place for referring people to liscenced mental health professionals. They are well-meaning, I am sure, but out of their league in most cases. I went to a centre ran by a church, not one was a liscenced mental health professional. Evidently the cure-all to the problems I had at the time was that I was not praying and trusting in God enough. If you want Christian counseling, i would try to find a Christian counselor that actually has a liscence (they are out there, you don't have to do secular to get someone with an actual degree). I would trust those types of Christian counselors since they would have actual expertise.
< Message edited by Starbucks880 -- 3/13/2008 6:23:21 PM >
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/13/2008 6:24:08 PM
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HisCovenant
Posts: 4745
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Some mental conditions are organic/physical in origin and quoting scripture at them won't affect them in the least. They may be caused by sin ultimately but have a physical/genetic direct link.
...OTOH, God commands me to not be bitter and resentful. If I do, I may have a genuine stress-based crazy spell. Some emotional abnormalities are certainly linked to unforgiveness, something I can do something about.
I agree and think you stated all that well. It takes a load of knowledge (Biblical and physical,) discernment, and wisdom to help others.
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/13/2008 9:41:02 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2357
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I know a lot of people that don't know the difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist...or counsellor/therapist and psychiatrist...or whatever combination there can be.
I think my point was that I think it's good to realize that there can be no organic problem, or one or more can exist... Many Christian counsellors I've run into just don't believe in this (for whatever reason), and subsequently a problem that might be remedied by fixing the imbalance is left untreated because they didn't believe in it... Although I know counsellors and psychologists can't prescribe meds (last I knew-- things may have changed now though), I think it's important to acknowledge that they exist. Ultimately the client may suffer in the end. (I'm not saying you don't, I just mean Christian counselling in general on a large scale.)
One of my friends had a serious psych. problem that meds help fix...greatly, but her Christian counsellor told her everything about the Bible and Jesus, and nothing of medications. I'm not sure if the counsellor didn't know or didn't believe it, etc. Stuff like that I guess is what I mean.
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 3/13/2008 9:50:21 PM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/13/2008 10:05:56 PM
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MrsTracy72
Posts: 1338
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I think scripture should be a part of your therapy if you are with a Christian therapist, but it should not be the only thing. A good therapist should know if a person is in need of medication and not safe if they are not on one.
My problem with that is if you get someone who does NOT believe in medication, and tries to take a biblical approach with somebody who is depressed or having problems with PTSD, it can drive them further from God.
That is what happened to me. The more people told me that I wasn't trusting God and gave me all the scriptures to prove how I need to be able to cast all my anxiety on him, and you know all the rest, it makes me feel like God doesn't want me when I have a panic attack, or get depressed and don't really care if I live or die. That is a very lonely feeling when you feel that even God doesn't want you.
I have had people try to convince me to just use the bible to cure my problems, but I do have a Christian therapist, and while she is wonderful to talk to, she is the one who told me that I needed to get on some kind of medication if we were going to get through what we needed to get through.
So, I tried, and failed because everytime I started to feel good, and yes this is going to sound backwards, I started to feel worse because I was relying on that pill rather than God. So then I would go off, things would get worse, and I would question whether or not God wanted me. I have my faith, but I also sometimes have that feeling that I am unwanted by God.
I do think that all of the people who have tried to tell me that those meds were not good because I was putting too much trust in them and not enough in God ended up making things worse for me.
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/14/2008 9:28:43 AM
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GrahamCracker
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I volunteer at a telephone ministry and we seek to evangelize. Occasionally, I get calls from the inside of mental institutions. Believe me, there are some people that you can talk into anything.
Often, eventually they admit to taking medications for schizophrenia and being afraid of the most odd things. I encourage them to tell some of their spiritual fears to their psychiatrist.
I have been told that certain groups try to cast demons out of schizophrenics. I have been told by people that they were attacked by a demon, only to have them describe what was probably a dream.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/14/2008 4:50:44 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 3308
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
I think scripture should be a part of your therapy if you are with a Christian therapist, but it should not be the only thing. A good therapist should know if a person is in need of medication and not safe if they are not on one.
My problem with that is if you get someone who does NOT believe in medication, and tries to take a biblical approach with somebody who is depressed or having problems with PTSD, it can drive them further from God.
That is what happened to me. The more people told me that I wasn't trusting God and gave me all the scriptures to prove how I need to be able to cast all my anxiety on him, and you know all the rest, it makes me feel like God doesn't want me when I have a panic attack, or get depressed and don't really care if I live or die. That is a very lonely feeling when you feel that even God doesn't want you.
I have had people try to convince me to just use the bible to cure my problems, but I do have a Christian therapist, and while she is wonderful to talk to, she is the one who told me that I needed to get on some kind of medication if we were going to get through what we needed to get through.
So, I tried, and failed because everytime I started to feel good, and yes this is going to sound backwards, I started to feel worse because I was relying on that pill rather than God. So then I would go off, things would get worse, and I would question whether or not God wanted me. I have my faith, but I also sometimes have that feeling that I am unwanted by God.
I do think that all of the people who have tried to tell me that those meds were not good because I was putting too much trust in them and not enough in God ended up making things worse for me.
Thanks for your insights. I am sorry you've had troubles finding a good therapist and finding the right solution. This is what is called Integrated counseling.
Sometimes, Christian people can be the hardest to medicate bc of the stigma involved in using antidepressants. That can be baffling for a counselor as well. I would recommend you to PRAY and wait on God to guide you to the right therapist whether it's the one you have right now or someone else.
That's why I stated it's a very challenging job.
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/14/2008 5:07:46 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 3308
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
I think a Christian counselors theories, methods, advice should be grounded in scripture. However, I don't necessarily think they need to recite scripture passages in every session.
I have seen a Christian counselor a handful of times in the last year. I am not sure that he has used scripture in every session. He might refer to a passage, he might discuss a passage without reading it. He gives advice on how to handle situations from a Christian world view and keeping in mind the spiritual condition of the other parties involved. Of course, I grew up in the church, was a PK for many years, and pretty much know many of the scriptures that relate to my situation. He knows I have the back ground already.
Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it. By reading your signature I noticed mentioning something about the memory of someone, so I imagine you experienced some kind of grief lately, if so please accept my deepest condolences. 
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/15/2008 10:44:39 AM
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MrsTracy72
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
I have had people try to convince me to just use the bible to cure my problems, but I do have a Christian therapist, and while she is wonderful to talk to, she is the one who told me that I needed to get on some kind of medication if we were going to get through what we needed to get through.
Thanks for your insights. I am sorry you've had troubles finding a good therapist and finding the right solution. This is what is called Integrated counseling.
That's why I stated it's a very challenging job.
Oh, no, I didn't have trouble finding her. God just kind of in a way dropped her in my lap. She is wonderful. What I was trying to say was that at the time, she was the ONLY one who wanted me to go on medication. It was OTHERS who were talking against it. And eventhough I know deep down that I am not wrong here, I still have my moments when I think that maybe God is putting these people and these medications out in front of us to test us to see if we are going to lean on them or on him. I feel like a failure in God's eyes when I start to feel better on my meds, and then someone comes along and tells me that I am turning my back on him by relying on the meds. Then I usually stop and get more depressed, and that is never a good thing, and it takes alot to get me back. But now I do think I am getting better at realizing God isn't testing me, but has given these people and these medications to me so that I can get better. It is just that when you get depressed, you don't think right and I go back to the whole testing thing and feel as if I failed. It is just a vicious circle. And I hate it when people say that it is just something you can snap out of. Or that you are just feeling sorry for yourself. And I am sure I could keep going with that list, but I won't.
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/15/2008 12:23:55 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 3308
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
I have had people try to convince me to just use the bible to cure my problems, but I do have a Christian therapist, and while she is wonderful to talk to, she is the one who told me that I needed to get on some kind of medication if we were going to get through what we needed to get through.
Thanks for your insights. I am sorry you've had troubles finding a good therapist and finding the right solution. This is what is called Integrated counseling.
That's why I stated it's a very challenging job.
Oh, no, I didn't have trouble finding her. God just kind of in a way dropped her in my lap. She is wonderful. What I was trying to say was that at the time, she was the ONLY one who wanted me to go on medication. It was OTHERS who were talking against it. And eventhough I know deep down that I am not wrong here, I still have my moments when I think that maybe God is putting these people and these medications out in front of us to test us to see if we are going to lean on them or on him. I feel like a failure in God's eyes when I start to feel better on my meds, and then someone comes along and tells me that I am turning my back on him by relying on the meds. Then I usually stop and get more depressed, and that is never a good thing, and it takes alot to get me back. But now I do think I am getting better at realizing God isn't testing me, but has given these people and these medications to me so that I can get better. It is just that when you get depressed, you don't think right and I go back to the whole testing thing and feel as if I failed. It is just a vicious circle. And I hate it when people say that it is just something you can snap out of. Or that you are just feeling sorry for yourself. And I am sure I could keep going with that list, but I won't.
You are doing the right thing Tracy!  Please don't feel bad because of meds, they can be useful for some people. They are NOT indicative of lack of faith or whatever and don't let people make you feel like that. Depression can be hereditary and women are twice as much prone to it than men.
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/15/2008 5:08:30 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1357
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
Do you think Scripture should be used in Christian Counseling and if yes, in which circumstances?
The issue isn't whether to use Scripture or not to use Scripture; but, to intelligently use Scripture.
First, we need an intelligent view of why the Scriptures are not only helpful; but, essential to Christian counseling.
Who made the human body and the human mind? God.
Who best knows the distortions that occur in the human body and the human mind due to the fall? God.
So, it stands to reason that the Scriptures, particularly when they deal with thinking and actions, are written from an extremely intelligent level to communicate the best practices for mankind. In other words, every single thing in the Bible with regards to human behavior is based on an intimate knowledge of human behavior and is written to lead us the thinking and actions that will ultimately be the best for us.
So, to ignore Scripture is to ignore the greatest body of literature regarding human behavior at the highest level.
Secondly, we need an intelligent view of if and how a certain passage of Scripture actually applies in a given situation. And, we need to be absolutely sure that we have the correct interpretation of the meaning of the Scripture before applying it.
This is where so many pastors, counselors and Christian friends let us down. They are too intellectually lazy or too intellectually dishonest to ensure that the Scripture that they lay on us even applies.
Thirdly, we need to apply Scripture in the spirit in which it was written... for our good.
In many of the instances cited in these threads where Scripture backfired, it was because the counselor applied the Scriptures contrary to the spirit with which God gave them to us. If God gave us the Scriptures as insights into those behaviours and thought patterns that represent the best practices for our brains and bodies, then they should be presented in positive terms.
But, some like to use these Scriptures like a club. Since Scripture is meant for our good, I fail to see how using it as a club does any good at all. It fails to convey why God gave us these insights into the first place.
For instance, "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" is very good advice. One of the reasons it's very good advice is that God knew that the way a female's brain bonds in a sexual affair can be quite different from a male since the area where the bonding connections are formed is more active in the female. This mismatch is bound to end in pain as the woman starts to want more out of the relationship than the male. It's a physical brain reality.
But, it's rarely presented as God's protection. It's most often used as a bludgeon of condemnation. Yes, it IS a command. Yes, it is an abomination. But, why? It hurts the person that God loves. And, to God, hurting ourselves and others is a huge sin. He wants us to have abundant lives.
So, in reality God is saying you will not have an abundant life if you commit adultery. You will have an unhappy life filled with guilt and pain. You can see this demonstrated when Christ came face-to-face with the woman taken in adultery. "Neither do I condemn thee" shows the heart behind the commandment and "Go and sin no more" shows that he still recognized her actions as sin that needed to be abandoned for her own good.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 3/15/2008 5:15:22 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/15/2008 5:29:50 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1357
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
Oh, no, I didn't have trouble finding her. God just kind of in a way dropped her in my lap. She is wonderful. What I was trying to say was that at the time, she was the ONLY one who wanted me to go on medication. It was OTHERS who were talking against it. And eventhough I know deep down that I am not wrong here, I still have my moments when I think that maybe God is putting these people and these medications out in front of us to test us to see if we are going to lean on them or on him. I feel like a failure in God's eyes when I start to feel better on my meds, and then someone comes along and tells me that I am turning my back on him by relying on the meds. Then I usually stop and get more depressed, and that is never a good thing, and it takes alot to get me back. But now I do think I am getting better at realizing God isn't testing me, but has given these people and these medications to me so that I can get better. It is just that when you get depressed, you don't think right and I go back to the whole testing thing and feel as if I failed. It is just a vicious circle. And I hate it when people say that it is just something you can snap out of. Or that you are just feeling sorry for yourself. And I am sure I could keep going with that list, but I won't.
MrsTracy72... Console yourself with this thought. You are just like Job!!! You have so-called friends that haven't a CLUE as to what they are talking about!!!! 
The brain is a physical organ, just your heart or your kidneys, and it requires a balance of chemicals to work correctly. When we come to the place where our bodies and minds aren't generating those chemicals in balance than it's time to take some in from an external source like your medications.
Ask those medical expert friends of yours if they think childhood diabetics that need insulin also show a lack of faith. And, I'm guessing more than a few of them are on high blood pressure medications. 
Don't listen to ignorant people. Listen to people with knowledge. Every single individual is different. One might need medication and another not. But, if you don't have the right levels of the right chemicals in a particular area of your brain then your brain is simply not going to feed your emotions and your body correctly.
A book that will give you some insight into what you are feeling is available in local book stores. This particular book is a secular book on how the brain works and why it sometimes needs medications to restore chemical balance. In it, you will see that if they did a SPECT scan of your brain when you were depressed that a certain area of the brain would show high physical activity. You can actually SEE it. And, if they did the same SPECT view of your brain on medications it would look quite different!
The book is called, "Change You Brain, Change Your Life" by Daniel Amen. At the very least it will allow you to show the pictures of the scans in the book to the doubters... since they may not be able to read the actual words!!!!
It's available at most bookstores.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Should Scripture be used in Christian Counseling? - 3/15/2008 5:32:38 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 3308
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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Great insights thanks TMeeks which reflect what I stressed in my post earlier here and that is the attitude and conduct Jesus Christ has toward sinners.!!!
That's why I strongly believe that a successful Christian Counselor should grow into the image of Christ, i.e. be Christlike, otherwise people are not going to be comfy around him.
quote:
"You can see this demonstrated when Christ came face-to-face with the woman taken in adultery. "Neither do I condemn thee" shows the heart behind the commandment and "Go and sin no more" shows that he still recognized her actions as sin that needed to be abandoned for her own good."
Thanks for posting this biblical passage which I love about Sweet Jesus; He was NEVER judgemental or harsh toward people... on the contrary, always filled with kindness, encouragement, and empathy toward Sinners. I wish I could have one single friend who possesses these qualities!!!
< Message edited by Cloak -- 3/15/2008 5:44:30 PM >
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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)...which, I suppose, is why I'd rather see a psychiatrist (although I haven't).
