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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/20/2008 8:19:20 PM
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AllForIsrael
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
For those who say that Jews, Muslims or whoever worships the same God as Christians, let me ask this question:
When the Israelites made a golden calf (Exodus 32) and worshiped it, were they worshiping the same God that Moses was up on the mountain speaking with?
They proclaimed that golden idol to be the god that brought them out of Egypt. They built an altar for it, and declared that they would hold a feast to the LORD (aka God's name, YHWH, Jehovah, the tetragrammaton, etc.). Did calling a hunk of gold by the name of God mean that they were worshiping the same God that Moses was speaking with? Why should we believe that Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Oneness groups (or any others who deny the God who has revealed Himself in scripture) are worshiping the same God as we are, simply because they call their idols by the same name, or claim that their idols have accomplished things that were actually done by the true God.
That was then this is now...I think you need to read this:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm
< Message edited by AllForIsrael -- 3/20/2008 8:27:57 PM >
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/20/2008 8:34:35 PM
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walterquez
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Dear facedown, please forgive if I am wrong, but I think that is over analyzing things.
The point was, do Moslems believe in the same God Christians do? What about Jews? What about JW? Mormons? If they don't believe in the Trinity, or Jesus, then can we still say we believe in the same God? JW say they believe in the God of the bible, but they reject Jesus. Can we say we believe in the same God? And the Jews say they believe in the God of the bible, or the God of the patriarchs, and the Moslems in the God of Abraham. But they reject the Trinity, and they reject Jesus. Do we still worship the same God?
If their God is not the Holy Trinity, it is not Jesus, then it naturally concludes they believe in some other. Therefore, we can't be worshiping the same, because our beliefs are different.
And if they do not worship Jesus, then who are they worshiping?
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/20/2008 8:42:05 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
There are some ways in which their God may identify with ours. For example, if they designate "the creator of the universe" as their God they are talking about the same God as ours. Interesting point. What about a Buddhist for example, or a native American? If they talk about the creator of the universe, are we talking about the same God?
If you were in a Buddhist temple, and they would to say, let's pray to the creator of the universe, could you pray with them in agreement?
I know that is extreme, because they have a different understanding of the creator of the universe than we do. But, what about if you were in a mosque with Moslems? They claim their God is the God of Abraham in the bible. Could you pray to the same God they believe? In Allah's name?
_____________________________
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/20/2008 10:01:59 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Eh..........
But God has revealed Himself for who He is - Father, Son, Holy Spirit... if a person rejects two parts of that how can we honestly say they are speaking about (let alone worship) the same God as Christians?
We cannot.
I was thinking about this statement. God didn't reveal Himself to the jews as a trinitarian God, so why would they believe this? It wasn't until Jesus came that the picture of who God is more or less got cemented as the trinity. And that cementing didn't even happen until 300 years later at one of the councils. So, I believe that the jews worship the same God of the creation, since we study their own words in the OT to teach us about their God (who is our God), but they definately didn't 'get' Jesus.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/20/2008 10:40:47 PM
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facedown
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walter
over analyzing? lol, maybe...well, maybe more than maybe - but sometimes thats needed.
maybe the point is - does a label define a person and to whom their worship is directed?
though it wasn't directed towards myself you asked whether or not i could pray with another - say a buddhist and be "in agreement". again, i find many "christian" "prayers" i am not in agreement with, so i don't want my answer to simply be about conforming to a label; however, it would depend on the "prayer" i suppose.
forgive me if i'm wrong. but i understand you to be in communion with the orthodox church....maybe coptic? i apologize, for my lack of insight here - but the point is what do you make of the monastic inter-religious dialogue between trappist monks and monastic traditions of the east (east asia)?
lastly, is the question "do we believe in the same god as <insert label>?" simply limited to a broad sweeping question? what about orthodox, catholic, main-line protestant, charismatic, anglican, fundamentalist, calvinist, non-denominational, creedal, confessional?
it seems the question is "are only a few going to be saved"? jesus had a most insightful answer to this very question.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/20/2008 11:55:49 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I was thinking about this statement. God didn't reveal Himself to the jews as a trinitarian God, so why would they believe this?
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/21/2008 7:06:26 AM
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facedown
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walter
that passage is a lot like many of jesus' teachings - teachers of the law not receiving or embracing jesus - folks stuyding the scriptures seeking life, but rejecting jesus - etc
is it a natural conclusion; however, to suggest that because jesus was not "received" and "rejeted" that they (jews) never received god? would it (this rejection) not then mean that the ancient prophets did not worship god in actuality?
hope that makes sense
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/21/2008 7:18:42 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
But God has revealed Himself for who He is - Father, Son, Holy Spirit... if a person rejects two parts of that how can we honestly say they are speaking about (let alone worship) the same God as Christians? We cannot. So you say they worship a false god?
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/21/2008 12:01:25 PM
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Dred
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
There are some ways in which their God may identify with ours. For example, if they designate "the creator of the universe" as their God they are talking about the same God as ours. Interesting point. What about a Buddhist for example, or a native American? If they talk about the creator of the universe, are we talking about the same God?
If you were in a Buddhist temple, and they would to say, let's pray to the creator of the universe, could you pray with them in agreement?
I know that is extreme, because they have a different understanding of the creator of the universe than we do. But, what about if you were in a mosque with Moslems? They claim their God is the God of Abraham in the bible. Could you pray to the same God they believe? In Allah's name?
No, I can't see myself doing those things; that is one reason I seized upon the word "worship" in particular as opposed to "talking". The answer to the questions you originally posed depend much on how we define worship or belief. Our faith and our worship should be considered quite a different thing than our talking and thinking. We talk and think about creeds and historical details. The object of our faith and our worship is a person. God's ultimate revelation of Himself is in Jesus. God took the extreme measure of taking human form and thereby showed us just the kind of person He is. Jesus shows us who God is with great precision since He is God Himself in human form. So, there may be some sense in which those of other religions may "worship" the true God in ignorance (as Paul said of the Athenians), but if any become acquainted with the person Jesus and say "that is not my God" then they have never known our God.
When people imagine our faith to be the assent to a list of creeds, then having a similar faith as another is a quantitative, not a qualitative, matter; you just have to decide where to draw the line. But our faith is certainly not a list of creeds. It is a horrible and deadly mistake to confuse even the resume of Jesus with Jesus Himself. The one who wants to be rescued must trust his life to his rescuer; holding even the most complete and correct copy of the rescuer's resume is not enough.
My point is that Jesus absolutely reveals the person of God in a clear, human form. To reject that person as your God is to choose a different God.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/21/2008 2:57:53 PM
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EStan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
There are some ways in which their God may identify with ours. For example, if they designate "the creator of the universe" as their God they are talking about the same God as ours. Interesting point. What about a Buddhist for example, or a native American? If they talk about the creator of the universe, are we talking about the same God?
If you were in a Buddhist temple, and they would to say, let's pray to the creator of the universe, could you pray with them in agreement?
I know that is extreme, because they have a different understanding of the creator of the universe than we do. But, what about if you were in a mosque with Moslems? They claim their God is the God of Abraham in the bible. Could you pray to the same God they believe? In Allah's name?
No, I can't see myself doing those things; that is one reason I seized upon the word "worship" in particular as opposed to "talking". The answer to the questions you originally posed depend much on how we define worship or belief. Our faith and our worship should be considered quite a different thing than our talking and thinking. We talk and think about creeds and historical details. The object of our faith and our worship is a person. God's ultimate revelation of Himself is in Jesus. God took the extreme measure of taking human form and thereby showed us just the kind of person He is. Jesus shows us who God is with great precision since He is God Himself in human form. So, there may be some sense in which those of other religions may "worship" the true God in ignorance (as Paul said of the Athenians), but if any become acquainted with the person Jesus and say "that is not my God" then they have never known our God.
When people imagine our faith to be the assent to a list of creeds, then having a similar faith as another is a quantitative, not a qualitative, matter; you just have to decide where to draw the line. But our faith is certainly not a list of creeds. It is a horrible and deadly mistake to confuse even the resume of Jesus with Jesus Himself. The one who wants to be rescued must trust his life to his rescuer; holding even the most complete and correct copy of the rescuer's resume is not enough.
My point is that Jesus absolutely reveals the person of God in a clear, human form. To reject that person as your God is to choose a different God.
FANTASTIC post, Dred. Thank you for that.
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/21/2008 4:52:36 PM
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Sammy_S
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Only the Jews "know" the same God we do but without Christ they will suffer the wrath of God in eternity.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/21/2008 6:01:04 PM
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Dred
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
Only the Jews "know" the same God we do but without Christ they will suffer the wrath of God in eternity.
I do feel there is some sense in which Judaism is special, though I don't feel I can adequately express what that is at the moment.
The point I was trying to make was that when we meet a person we already know, we recognize him. This seems to be basically what Jesus is talking about in John 5:37-40.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/21/2008 11:45:28 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
But God has revealed Himself for who He is - Father, Son, Holy Spirit... if a person rejects two parts of that how can we honestly say they are speaking about (let alone worship) the same God as Christians? We cannot. So you say they worship a false god?
Luke 10:16
"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."
Those who reject Jesus Christ (or the Apostle's testimony about Him) are rejecting the Father who sent Him. How can someone worship what they have rejected? If they're not worshiping the true God, then they must be worshiping a false one.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 9:59:20 AM
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facedown
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fig
quote:
How can someone worship what they have rejected? If they're not worshiping the true God, then they must be worshiping a false one.
as we are all well aware, many folks within judaism, these sons and daughters of the hebrews delivered numerous times "rejected" jesus. the very ones who thought that they had it made, saved, healed, were redeemed, loved by god, etc had in fact not welcomed jesus.
was this "rejected" at the moment of when jesus exposed them? or prior? if it was prior - does that not then mean that many jews prior were worshiping a false god?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 12:37:25 PM
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sue244
Posts: 436
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Eh..........
But God has revealed Himself for who He is - Father, Son, Holy Spirit... if a person rejects two parts of that how can we honestly say they are speaking about (let alone worship) the same God as Christians?
We cannot.
I was thinking about this statement. God didn't reveal Himself to the jews as a trinitarian God, so why would they believe this? It wasn't until Jesus came that the picture of who God is more or less got cemented as the trinity. And that cementing didn't even happen until 300 years later at one of the councils. So, I believe that the jews worship the same God of the creation, since we study their own words in the OT to teach us about their God (who is our God), but they definately didn't 'get' Jesus.
You can find the trinity in the OT. "Let Us create man in Our image"
Even Deu. 6:4 has the trinity in it. "Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one."
Lord being Adoni
And God being Elohim. The El is plural in Hebrew.
And Jews that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah they do not worship the same God we do. Jesus says in Luke 10:16 that if someone despies Him they despise the One who sent Him. So you can't reject the Son and say that you worship the Father.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 4:44:00 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
fig
quote:
How can someone worship what they have rejected? If they're not worshiping the true God, then they must be worshiping a false one.
as we are all well aware, many folks within judaism, these sons and daughters of the hebrews delivered numerous times "rejected" jesus. the very ones who thought that they had it made, saved, healed, were redeemed, loved by god, etc had in fact not welcomed jesus.
was this "rejected" at the moment of when jesus exposed them? or prior? if it was prior - does that not then mean that many jews prior were worshiping a false god?
The wording of your question is not clear to me. However, let us take Paul as an example. Paul was a Jew of Jews, but Jesus Christ still said that Paul was persecuting Him. Up until Paul had faith in Jesus Christ, he had been following a false god. Regardless of all the truth that Paul knew about Judaism, and all that he had done right according to the Law, he still did not know the true God, and was not following Him.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 7:14:53 PM
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Dancre
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
There are religious groups, other than Christianity, that claims their God is the same God of Abraham. If this is true, can we say we believe in the same God? Or is this a deception?
For example, the Holy Trinity is my God. So if I ask any of the other groups, is the Holy Trinity your God too? Is Jesus your God? And if their answer is no, can we still say we worship the same God?
I don't think it's persay the same God, but different paths that others are taking to try to reach Him. The only way to reach Him is through Christ JEsus. All other paths are basically dead ends. They may think they are walking on the right path to God, but they aren't. They are praying to sealed ceiling. does that make sense?
kim
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 7:18:06 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1264
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dear facedown, please forgive if I am wrong, but I think that is over analyzing things.
The point was, do Moslems believe in the same God Christians do? What about Jews? What about JW? Mormons? If they don't believe in the Trinity, or Jesus, then can we still say we believe in the same God? JW say they believe in the God of the bible, but they reject Jesus. Can we say we believe in the same God? And the Jews say they believe in the God of the bible, or the God of the patriarchs, and the Moslems in the God of Abraham. But they reject the Trinity, and they reject Jesus. Do we still worship the same God?
If their God is not the Holy Trinity, it is not Jesus, then it naturally concludes they believe in some other. Therefore, we can't be worshiping the same, because our beliefs are different.
And if they do not worship Jesus, then who are they worshiping?
Honestly, I'm not for sure if they are worshipping our God or the devil. I don't know. But I do know that our God can't hear their prayers, so perhaps the devil? And if God can't hear their prayers, then are they praying to God or the devil? Too many questions!! :)
kim
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 8:12:24 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
fig
quote:
How can someone worship what they have rejected? If they're not worshiping the true God, then they must be worshiping a false one.
as we are all well aware, many folks within judaism, these sons and daughters of the hebrews delivered numerous times "rejected" jesus. the very ones who thought that they had it made, saved, healed, were redeemed, loved by god, etc had in fact not welcomed jesus.
was this "rejected" at the moment of when jesus exposed them? or prior? if it was prior - does that not then mean that many jews prior were worshiping a false god?
The wording of your question is not clear to me. However, let us take Paul as an example. Paul was a Jew of Jews, but Jesus Christ still said that Paul was persecuting Him. Up until Paul had faith in Jesus Christ, he had been following a false god. Regardless of all the truth that Paul knew about Judaism, and all that he had done right according to the Law, he still did not know the true God, and was not following Him.
figmentPez,
I disagree that the Jews worship a false God simply because they reject Jesus. They worship the God of the OT, and He is not a false god. Their lack of faith in Jesus does not mean they worship a false God, it means they are attempting to worship God while in a state of sin. This is reallly no different than when God chastised them (as recorded in Isaiah) for worshhipping Him while their hearts were far from Him. Or, as recorded in Isaiah, when God said that He would not accept their worship because they denied the widows and fatherless justice, and so on. In those instances, God did not accuse them of worshipping a false god; instead He said their worship of Him was unacceptable because of their sin. I think that more accurately describes their current situation than does the claim they are worshipping a false god.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 8:14:08 PM
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URForgiven
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Jesus is God. There is no separation. To reject Jesus as God, is to reject God. Christianity alone understands and believes in Jesus as God.
Judaism "seeks" to know the God of Christianity, but rejects The Way He Himself has provided. All other religions worship a fantasy.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 11:41:29 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1780
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Ever since the New Testament was written, circulated, printed, and published in every language, men have been denied the excuse that they cannot know the nature of the one true God.
God has revealed Himself to mankind in His Son. And God the Father has also called Him "God" (Heb. 1:6-14) or "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim .3:16) and made Him both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).
Therefore unless men worship Christ as both Lord and God (Jn. 20:28), with the Father and the Spirit (Rev. 4:9-11; 5:11-14), they worship another god.
To those who rejected Him ,Christ said "Ye are of your father, the devil". And all religions that reject Christ as both Lord and God, are indeed of the devil. The truth may sound harsh, but that is the reality, since one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11).
< Message edited by Ezra -- 3/22/2008 11:54:46 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 11:50:17 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1780
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quote:
Their lack of faith in Jesus does not mean they worship a false God, it means they are attempting to worship God while in a state of sin.
The refusal of the Jews to believe that Jesus was and is the great "I AM" goes beyond worshipping God "in a state of sin".
It is a rejection of the witness of God the Father to His Son, as well as a rejection of the witness of Christ to Himself, therefore it is making God to be a liar. That is most emphatically not worship! How can a man say he worships God, when at the same time he calls Him a liar?
God the Father witnessed to the Deity of His Son in the OT (Ps. 45:6-8) and reiterated it in the NT (Heb. 1:6-14). Therefore the Jews are without excuse.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 3/22/2008 11:56:30 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/22/2008 11:56:12 PM
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bob97
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