Do we Believe in the same God? (Full Version)

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walterquez -> Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 1:04:28 AM)

There are religious groups, other than Christianity, that claims their God is the same God of Abraham. If this is true, can we say we believe in the same God? Or is this a deception?

For example, the Holy Trinity is my God. So if I ask any of the other groups, is the Holy Trinity your God too? Is Jesus your God? And if their answer is no, can we still say we worship the same God?



earthless -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 8:20:24 AM)

Based on the example you gave - of course you could not say you both adhere to the same God. It is nothing more than politically correct pandering and an absolute ignoring of facts that allows someone to say "we worship the same God!!".



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 4:25:41 PM)

The only religion that MIGHT be able to make this claim accurately is Judaism. Specifically because Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism at its core. Islam, B'hai, and Scientology are not even close to worshipping the "God of Abraham".

Adam



bob97 -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 5:06:18 PM)

We in fact know that Judaism worship the same God as the Church but Judaism does not believe in a Trinity and they do not believe in Jesus Christ so by the definition earthless has given He would not be the same God.

Bob



Qtman -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 5:10:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

We in fact know that Judaism worship the same God as the Church but Judaism does not believe in a Trinity and they do not believe in Jesus Christ so by the definition earthless has given He would not be the same God.

Bob


Actually they do worship the same God as we do. They do not believe the same thing about Jesus Christ as we do. They do not believe He was the Messiah but more like another prophet. They do however worship God the creator of the universe.



earthless -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 6:23:48 PM)

Eh..........

But God has revealed Himself for who He is - Father, Son, Holy Spirit... if a person rejects two parts of that how can we honestly say they are speaking about (let alone worship) the same God as Christians?

We cannot.



walterquez -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 6:59:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

The only religion that MIGHT be able to make this claim accurately is Judaism. Specifically because Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism at its core. Islam, B'hai, and Scientology are not even close to worshipping the "God of Abraham".
Moslems say they worship the God of Abraham, but this is debatable. Just because they claim to worship the same God doesn't mean they do. By definition, we worship the Trinity. We believe Jesus is God. They don't. Can we still say we worship the same God?

If they have rejected Christ, which in turn are also rejecting the Father, and they don't believe in the Trinity, and they don't believe in Jesus, then who are they worshiping? Certainly not the same God we worship.

What about Judaism? Do they "worship" the Trinity? Do they "worship" Jesus? Do they believe Jesus is God? If the answer is no, how can we say we worship the same God? It goes against reason. Or do we believe all religions believe in the same God? That Jesus, Allah, Buddha, or some higher power are all the same God?

Does it make sense to say that JW don't believe in the same God we do, because of what they believe about who Jesus is? And that Moslems don't believe in the same God we do, because of what they believe about the Trinity or Jesus? I think so. Their definition of who God is is not the same as ours. So it makes sense to us that they don't worship the same God we do.

If who they worship is not the Holy Trinity, if it is not Jesus then who is it? Certainly it is not the Holy Trinity.



bob97 -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 7:13:40 PM)

The real issue is…without Christ there is no forgiveness and thus no contact with God. Those who attempted to worship without Christ are in effect dead to God and as a result have no God, regardless of who He actually is. They might as well believe in a rock for as much good as it does them.

It seems to me that “do we believe the same God” is a pointless discussion without Christ.

Bob



earthless -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 7:15:04 PM)

Bob,

You have hit 'THE' nail on the head... it all boils down to, "Who do you say Jesus is?"



facedown -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 8:54:45 PM)

walter
excellent question(s).
maybe the question is does worship/faith/belief/etc solely constructed of mental assent to a specific list of details about god?

earthless
it seems that in the gospels, while there are passages that speak of such a question as you have given it, we find folks who have no knowledge/information/belief/etc in the construct of how we might answer that question - yet still have faith in god - still are finding themeslves delivered - still are seeking and finding/being found by god, etc. so maybe the question is: when jesus spoke the beattitudes, and spoke to folks from the north, south, east, and west - and said such things, was he merely speaking abstractly from a calvinist world view - or - did was it an authentic message (consistenant with his entire message), and all consequences known?



walterquez -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/17/2008 10:27:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

walter
excellent question(s).
maybe the question is does worship/faith/belief/etc solely constructed of mental assent to a specific list of details about god?
Does not our beliefs define what we worship?



MannaLight -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/18/2008 3:31:15 AM)

Greetings! No, the Scripture is clear on what we are to call God in Christ Jesus our Lord through the power of The Holy Spirit of God. Therefore, those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth as it is written. For God dwells among those He has chosen to come to with the Word namely those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord. It is written: we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

There is no other Name given among peoples on earth by which we must be saved. For through Him and in Him and by Him were all things made that were made to the Glory of the Almighty God.
quote:

ORIGINAL: walterquez

There are religious groups, other than Christianity, that claims their God is the same God of Abraham. If this is true, can we say we believe in the same God? Or is this a deception?

For example, the Holy Trinity is my God. So if I ask any of the other groups, is the Holy Trinity your God too? Is Jesus your God? And if their answer is no, can we still say we worship the same God?



facedown -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/18/2008 6:46:24 AM)

walter
quote:

Does not our beliefs define what we worship?

i'm not so certain that belief - mental assent if you will - is what "defines" our worship.
a couple of thoughts on this:

throughout scripture, we see marriage as this sacred metaphor for humanities relationship with god. and we are given a very vivid image of what faith is, really by way of what faith is not - unfaithfullness, or adultery. the latin would be fidelity or infidelity.
fidelity isn't about what we mentally know or believe about the other, it is about remaining true to the other even in those moments when have doubts about what we believe - even we beleive the 'wrong' things about the other - even when the other does or believes things we know is contrary to our relationship.

:
often times we construct our own flatland, we create boundaries (be they square, or circular) and say it is "this" and therefore cannot be "that". we take a scientific approach to knowledge, and demand some sort of empirical evidence. we become confined in this land we construct....we become isolated, if you will. we often fail to understand we in fact do not live in a two dimensional land, that sometimes a square and a circle can in fact be the exact same thing.

::
i believe our 'worship' is very holistic. it's much like our breathing - one thing with two elements. we breathe in and we breathe out - but this is 'breathing'. we breathe in (we know or experience god) and we breathe out (we proclaim, we incarnate, we make known). so everything we do is in some respect one element or another - though sometimes we forecfully try to do one or the other not realizing you can't live without both.

+++
now with all that said, some might take this to mean that everyone's worship is towards the same god. but i don't think that is the consequence - if the suggestion is all forms of faithfullness, or angle, or breathing is then "okay". we can indeed be unfaithfull - we can live a life that creates isolation - and we can try to not breathe. and certainly "belief" or mental assent has it's role - and an important one at that - in all of this.

edited here:
i guess you might say, i believe that the larger visions we have about god that embrace mystery, cannot stay up lofty ideas - i believe that our missiology is directly linked to and fed by our trinitarian - creational - incarnational - and sacramental theologies. but we often lose this sense of wonder and awe when the 'rubber meets the road' - we create ways of interacting with, and understanding others that have nothing to do with anything else other than a self-preservational view. we don't seek to serve, we seek to be served and to colonize the world because "we" are right and "they" are wrong.

even this use of the word "other" has it's own baggage you see - because it often demands that we are the subject, and they are the object in a relationship that is controlled and owned by the subject - it's a one way street.



earthless -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/18/2008 8:13:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

it seems that in the gospels, while there are passages that speak of such a question as you have given it, we find folks who have no knowledge/information/belief/etc in the construct of how we might answer that question - yet still have faith in god - still are finding themeslves delivered - still are seeking and finding/being found by god, etc. so maybe the question is: when jesus spoke the beattitudes, and spoke to folks from the north, south, east, and west - and said such things, was he merely speaking abstractly from a calvinist world view - or - did was it an authentic message (consistenant with his entire message), and all consequences known?


facedown,

Firstly, I am not a Calvinist, so I can't really speak from that angle. Scripture states that all of mankind has the light of creation (Romans) and that if they seek God He will reveal Himself more and more to that seeker.

Secondly, only God knows a person's heart and who is His, etc..

Thirdly, based on Scripture we can know that God is indeed Just and Perfect and that everyone will get what is their due. I am reminded of some of the writings from C.S. Lewis and his constant theme of, "No one will be in Hell saying it is not fair, that they do not deserve to be there..."



figmentPez -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/18/2008 5:18:04 PM)

For those who say that Jews, Muslims or whoever worships the same God as Christians, let me ask this question:

When the Israelites made a golden calf (Exodus 32) and worshiped it, were they worshiping the same God that Moses was up on the mountain speaking with?

They proclaimed that golden idol to be the god that brought them out of Egypt. They built an altar for it, and declared that they would hold a feast to the LORD (aka God's name, YHWH, Jehovah, the tetragrammaton, etc.). Did calling a hunk of gold by the name of God mean that they were worshiping the same God that Moses was speaking with? Why should we believe that Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Oneness groups (or any others who deny the God who has revealed Himself in scripture) are worshiping the same God as we are, simply because they call their idols by the same name, or claim that their idols have accomplished things that were actually done by the true God.



walterquez -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/18/2008 7:57:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

walter
quote:

Does not our beliefs define what we worship?

i'm not so certain that belief - mental assent if you will - is what "defines" our worship.
Sure it does. Our worship is determined by what we believe. For example, to the JW, Jesus is the archangel Michael, so when they worship Jesus, they worship Him with this understanding. To the Moslems, Jesus is a prophet, so they honor Him with this understanding. Mormons see Jesus as a man, so they worship Him with this understanding.

We on the other believe Jesus is God. That is our beliefs, and our worship is based on that belief.

So yes, your belief is what defines your worship.



facedown -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/19/2008 7:33:26 PM)

walter
please remember, that i'm not advocating that mental assent, or belief is out of the picture here.

maybe, it's the other way around....beliefs determined by our worship?

in addition to my previous post:
take thomas' confession; for example - so simple "my lord" and "my god".
think of those jesus met on the street - what was their "mental assent" or "belief"? would it match perfectly in union with our language of god and christ?



walterquez -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/19/2008 10:13:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown

maybe, it's the other way around....beliefs determined by our worship?
No.



facedown -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/19/2008 10:49:02 PM)

walter
.....i am so positive our conversation could be much more....conversational

for example: how does via negativa affirm or deny your assertation?



walterquez -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/20/2008 12:18:12 AM)

facedown, it is as simple as which one came first, the chicken or the egg. Which one comes first, belief or worship?

Since you expressed the possibility of worship defining beliefs, how is this possible? How can you worship without having some kind of belief about what you're worshiping?



bob97 -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/20/2008 12:27:41 AM)

Belief has to proceed worship...without belief what would you worship?

Bob



facedown -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/20/2008 7:18:21 AM)

walter
what your asking is how can someone know something, if they don't know it.

your analogy to the chicken and the egg is much like my earlier thoughts on breathing.
the chicken came first...where did the chicken come from....the egg...who laid the egg....the chicken...right, but where did the chicken come from...the egg - and at last, we shake our head, because this form of knowing leads to nothing. the answer is mystery, ineffable, and is in fact - god.

there was once a man in the desert, who after readng his copy of the gospels read that jesus said to give of oneself everything, gave his only copy away.

"worship" and "belief" then are two seperate constructs.

as to your question, i shared some other thoughts on this very thing with mushead:

lets say you play the guitar. but all you know how to play are three chords: G, C, and D. you can play a 1,000 songs with these chords, but you have no knowledge, you cannot explain musical theory, you just know how to play. you have great rthym, and a good ear, but know nothing of scales. this is a lack of "mental assent".
the problem is; however, that one does in fact know something of theory and scales, because one is participating in these things by the mere fact of playing a chord, or playing in a key - even if one is totally ignorant of the knowledge behind these things.

take children for example - whom jesus used numerous times as an illustration. my kids have "faith" that i'm going to take care of them. but if told to write a paper on exactly what this means, and exactly how this happens - they couldn't do it. this is a lack of "mental assent".
however, through this hope and trust that they have, they have demonstrated great faith, and participate in the very things they cannot explain.

therefore, we must be very careful in how we treat "mental assent" or "knowledge", or "propositions" that must be adhered to.

::
again, this is not to say that mental assent is absent in the scriptures....



walterquez -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/20/2008 7:52:10 AM)

The examples you gave, the playing, the having faith is based on something you know. For example, faith comes by hearing. Without hearing it first, how can there be faith?

The point is not whether you understand it or not, or even if you're right or wrong. You worship what you personally believe should be worshiped, otherwise why would you worship? People worship something or someone, because they believe. It doesn't matter if they understand it or not, or if it is right or wrong. It is your belief, and that belief is the reason you worship.

Maybe I didn't explain it right, so you're having a hard time understanding what I am saying, but I hope this helped tho.



facedown -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/20/2008 1:45:52 PM)

walter
"faith comes by hearing"
certainly - we here that which is inaudible, ineffable, and cannot be spoken.


if by "faith" and "belief" you are including things we don't know, can't explian, cannot rightly divide between right or wrong, can't understand, and that which is experienced by some sort of participation, then i agree.

however, post 1 seemed to suggest in a series of questions that 'faith' and 'belief' were united with things we do in fact know and can explain. in post 7, there seemed to be some question about language in general - that though some may use the same language (worship the god of abraham) it doesn't mean they do, in addition because they use other language (reject christ, for example) that suggests that they do not in fact worship god. therefore, we come back again to mental assent, knowledge, language, and belief. however, should the same argument also include the exact opposite (which would then suggest that simply because one uses the trinitarian language...etc...then that also doesn't mean they are worshiping the same god) then maybe there is something there. but then post 16 seemed to demand that belief was again somehow constructed of what we know...and thus believe...about something or someone. in other words if i mental understanding of something i believe to be true, than i accept that as true and thus worship, honor, etc this as true. and there may be something there, but again, i think this might be an over-reductionist approach because it suggests (or so it seems) that our faith is something logical, mechanical, and the like.

pax



Dred -> RE: Do we Believe in the same God? (3/20/2008 2:47:19 PM)

First, any religion which does not believe in a personal God worships something entirely different--surely a different God.

Second, it seems that any religion holding the doctrine that God is a person must worship the same person as we do if they are worshiping the same God. Christians worship the person Jesus; we worship a God who is human. Other "Abrahamic faiths" do not worship the person Jesus; their God is not human. There are some ways in which their God may identify with ours. For example, if they designate "the creator of the universe" as their God they are talking about the same God as ours. However, if worship is personal--if it is directed at a person rather than a concept--then they are not worshiping who we worship.

We may meditate on concepts, ponder ideas, but I would say that worship is directed at a person.



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